Server Multithreading Update – July 2023

blktauna

OtarTheMad wrote: »

<snip>
The issue I really think is just constant communication. ZOS should probably put PvP re-architecture and lag fix on a bulletin board and seriously just update us all at least quarterly when they have those ESO Lives promoting the next DLC. Even making it part of the article afterwards for those who missed it, a small thing like that will go far I think. At least for me it will.

[snip]
I love your idea, and wish it would actually happen. It won't though.

[snip]
[edited for discussing moderator action(s) & bashing]

OtarTheMad

blktauna wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

<snip>
The issue I really think is just constant communication. ZOS should probably put PvP re-architecture and lag fix on a bulletin board and seriously just update us all at least quarterly when they have those ESO Lives promoting the next DLC. Even making it part of the article afterwards for those who missed it, a small thing like that will go far I think. At least for me it will.

[snip]
I love your idea, and wish it would actually happen. It won't though.

[snip]

I think that second part is why I have always held onto that they care about PvP but it is just hard for them to figure it out. ZOS’ reputation is going to follow them from game to game so from a business side of things it benefits them an insane amount to fix PvP.

As it stands right now I wouldn’t buy another game made by this company, even if it was made by a different team, doesn’t matter… same company so why bother. I doubt they want that type of thing following them.

Do we even know what is going on with the re-architecture of PvP code? I know it would take a few years when they announced it but I thought we’d get some update along the way. Overall what is going on with PvP and what has been for years is just weird to me.

[edited to remove quote]

OtarTheMad

ProudMary wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Marto wrote: »

RicAlmighty wrote: »

GooGa592 wrote: »

One question that needs to be answered by the dev team at ZOS:

How is it that in 2016-2018 ZOS was able to deliver fantastic performance in Cyrodiil with 24 man group size and quadruple the population cap than we have today, but in 2023 this is not possible?

This is the pertinent question. It’s not as though this game has never had good performance and this was an attempt to make it better. It *was* better, and now its worse. Why? What caused it? And what can we do to mitigate the performance degradation that those changes introduced?

Rich Lambert actually talked about this during some of his livestreams.

It's not the only reason, but one of the biggest factors was the addition of Volendrung, and destructible gates/bridges. For some unknown reason, the addition of those things dramatically reduced Cyrodiil performance.

Paradoxically, removing those features in their internal test servers did not result in performance returning to the state it was before. Whatever was broken could not be un-broken.

We know from datamining that ZOS originally planned and developed more content for Cyrodiil, like more artifact weapons and more map features. But all that content had to be put on hold until performance was improved. That's why they've spent years and years doing multiple public and private tests with things like skill cooldowns, AoE limits, proc-sets, champion points, etc.

This is really not ZOS being "lazy" or trying to do things for cheap. The cheapest and easiest option would be for them to just release all that content, and care not how bad performance gets. Instead they spent years and years working on all sorts of improvements of hardware and software.

But honestly, I also feel people are looking at the past with rose tinted glasses. Performance in 2016-2018 was absolutely not better than it is right now. Different issues existed, like packet congestion as a result of too much data being handled by the server, poor lag compensation, and poor particle-related performance.

^^this. I agree completely.

I feel like ZOS is trying when it comes to PvP and I remember those streams where Rich mentioned those things and it made me realize they do in fact try but it’s harder than we all thought.

One thing that I feel like was also lost to time was when ZOS came out, believe it was on a ESO Live or a Q&A, I don’t remember but they told everyone basically that it’s hard for them to find why PvP is the way it is because they cannot duplicate Live Cyrodiil conditions internally. That is why we had those live tests, it was easier on them.

I miss Rich’s streams because we got so much information about what is going on behind closed doors and I liked it and I think it was good for the game.

Many of us that have been PvP players since 2014-2015 have seen enough empty PR that we are highly skeptical of any PR regarding PVP and those creating it.

Have you seen the "waaah waaah waaah" video? That's the straw that broke the proverbial camels back for a lot of us.

I have been playing since beta so I get that. For me, I didn’t have issues with PvP and lag really until 2020 but I’ve seen a lot of guildies and friends leave this game over the years.

I’ve seen that video, I was watching live and I truly think that got blown WAY out of proportion. The person who asked was doing a laugh emoji in chat and saying LOL to her answer. It was almost like they asked as a joke and it just went nuclear.

The timing overall was bad I get it because that was after COVID and other things completely changed any plans which made players mad. The lack of communication made it seem that devs weren’t working on fixing anything etc.

The issue I really think is just constant communication. ZOS should probably put PvP re-architecture and lag fix on a bulletin board and seriously just update us all at least quarterly when they have those ESO Lives promoting the next DLC. Even making it part of the article afterwards for those who missed it, a small thing like that will go far I think. At least for me it will.

It's the lack of results over many years of promises to fix issues in cyrodiil that make it seem that devs aren't working on fixing anything. It's the lack of results far more than lack of communication.

We've all seen many times over and over again that ZOS can make Cyrodiil perform better by making improvements on their server end. If you've been around as long as you say, then you remember how much better cyrodiil would perform during MYM events right after maintenance, then decline again when the event was over. And you remember how much better performance was when they upgraded their servers. It didn't last long, but it was noticeable, temporary improvements after ZOS made adjustments to their servers that resulted in better performance. So we know ZOS can make it better if they want to. Are they still censoring the mention of cyodiil or PvP in their live streams?

This is what confuses me even today. Yes, when MYM came around a lot of the campaigns worked under locked conditions, Gray Host or whatever the main campaign was still was a mess but the others weren’t and that was weird to me. Blackreach and Gray Host would have almost identical conditions, locked and big fights, and GH would be a mess and BR would be okay. Only difference is the que.

Also, for YEARS I played in under 50 (keep reading, hold the memes). From 2019-2020 I played a lot in lowbie and honestly it was some of the BEST PvP I’ve experienced in years and since. A lot of us played in lowbie pretty much because it never lagged. During MYM at that time we would even get the population on all 3 alliances locked and we would have no problems with lag… like at all. Faction v Faction and it would just be a gigantic fight with siege and abilities and all kinds of crap… no lag. So why? Why would the main campaign be laggy af to the point where you’re watching a PowerPoint presentation and some other campaigns are fine? It kind of kills any idea of what is causing lag.

EDIT- Of course there is about a 99% chance ball groups aren’t helping. A lot of us remember when groups would purposefully lag out the server causing a crash and roll back. This isn’t a tin foil hat theory either, groups were CAUGHT doing this lol. They’d all stand in the same spot spamming healing springs which would crash it. So heal stacking very likely isn’t helping any

jle30303

Never mind PVP. I am now getting laggy, choppy, single-figure FPS and 999+ ping issues EVERYWHERE. Yes, it's the first day of the Witches Festival, so more people may be logging in than normal.

But I was getting these issues *in between* events. Already so badly that I did not want to even do daily crafting writs for the last fortnight because my movement even between crafting stations stutters all the time and heaven help me if I want to change direction.

No, it is not my computer. Same computer, same graphics, same location (Vivec City) worked MUCH better literally only a few months ago. There has been a major deterioration.

Elsonso

ProudMary wrote: »

We've all seen many times over and over again that ZOS can make Cyrodiil perform better by making improvements on their server end. If you've been around as long as you say, then you remember how much better cyrodiil would perform during MYM events right after maintenance, then decline again when the event was over. And you remember how much better performance was when they upgraded their servers. It didn't last long, but it was noticeable, temporary improvements after ZOS made adjustments to their servers that resulted in better performance. So we know ZOS can make it better if they want to. Are they still censoring the mention of cyodiil or PvP in their live streams?

I always assumed that they turned off something server side that they don't want kept off all the time, or can't leave off all the time. It's not like they are going to tell people what they are doing, so I may never find out if I am right or wrong.

GooGa592

Elsonso wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

We've all seen many times over and over again that ZOS can make Cyrodiil perform better by making improvements on their server end. If you've been around as long as you say, then you remember how much better cyrodiil would perform during MYM events right after maintenance, then decline again when the event was over. And you remember how much better performance was when they upgraded their servers. It didn't last long, but it was noticeable, temporary improvements after ZOS made adjustments to their servers that resulted in better performance. So we know ZOS can make it better if they want to. Are they still censoring the mention of cyodiil or PvP in their live streams?

I always assumed that they turned off something server side that they don't want kept off all the time, or can't leave off all the time. It's not like they are going to tell people what they are doing, so I may never find out if I am right or wrong.

I'm nearly 100% sure that it's a simple matter of server resources dedicated to the zone.

Photosniper89

Elsonso wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

We've all seen many times over and over again that ZOS can make Cyrodiil perform better by making improvements on their server end. If you've been around as long as you say, then you remember how much better cyrodiil would perform during MYM events right after maintenance, then decline again when the event was over. And you remember how much better performance was when they upgraded their servers. It didn't last long, but it was noticeable, temporary improvements after ZOS made adjustments to their servers that resulted in better performance. So we know ZOS can make it better if they want to. Are they still censoring the mention of cyodiil or PvP in their live streams?

I always assumed that they turned off something server side that they don't want kept off all the time, or can't leave off all the time. It's not like they are going to tell people what they are doing, so I may never find out if I am right or wrong.

Are they still censoring the mention of cyodiil or PvP in their live streams?

YES, the answer is yes, they are.

Photosniper89

OtarTheMad wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

<snip>
The issue I really think is just constant communication. ZOS should probably put PvP re-architecture and lag fix on a bulletin board and seriously just update us all at least quarterly when they have those ESO Lives promoting the next DLC. Even making it part of the article afterwards for those who missed it, a small thing like that will go far I think. At least for me it will.

[snip]
I love your idea, and wish it would actually happen. It won't though.

[snip]

I think that second part is why I have always held onto that they care about PvP but it is just hard for them to figure it out. ZOS’ reputation is going to follow them from game to game so from a business side of things it benefits them an insane amount to fix PvP.

As it stands right now I wouldn’t buy another game made by this company, even if it was made by a different team, doesn’t matter… same company so why bother. I doubt they want that type of thing following them.

Do we even know what is going on with the re-architecture of PvP code? I know it would take a few years when they announced it but I thought we’d get some update along the way. Overall what is going on with PvP and what has been for years is just weird to me.

Nope, we don't have a flippin idea what is going on with the re architecture. Honestly, I'd be shocked if they said they didn't sideline that project already. They have talked about how much better they need to improve the communication with the player base but we all know that they mean with the PvE player base. [snip]

I mean, when was the last thing PvP got anything worth a damn? (No one asked for guard kill notifications or a kill feed)

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

Amottica

Photosniper89 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

<snip>
The issue I really think is just constant communication. ZOS should probably put PvP re-architecture and lag fix on a bulletin board and seriously just update us all at least quarterly when they have those ESO Lives promoting the next DLC. Even making it part of the article afterwards for those who missed it, a small thing like that will go far I think. At least for me it will.

[snip]

I love your idea, and wish it would actually happen. It won't though.

[snip]

I think that second part is why I have always held onto that they care about PvP but it is just hard for them to figure it out. ZOS’ reputation is going to follow them from game to game so from a business side of things it benefits them an insane amount to fix PvP.

As it stands right now I wouldn’t buy another game made by this company, even if it was made by a different team, doesn’t matter… same company so why bother. I doubt they want that type of thing following them.

Do we even know what is going on with the re-architecture of PvP code? I know it would take a few years when they announced it but I thought we’d get some update along the way. Overall what is going on with PvP and what has been for years is just weird to me.

Nope, we don't have a flippin idea what is going on with the re architecture. Honestly, I'd be shocked if they said they didn't sideline that project already. They have talked about how much better they need to improve the communication with the player base but we all know that they mean with the PvE player base. [snip]

I mean, when was the last thing PvP got anything worth a damn? (No one asked for guard kill notifications or a kill feed)

I might have missed the point but Matt seemed to be very clear that the re-architecture was not providing the expected improvements and that they are still looking for a means to improve performance.

As unfortunate as this is, it sounds like the only update they could provide at this time is they are still searching for a solution. Hopefully, we will get better news in his end-of-year address. Hopefully but we have been through this before.

[edited to remove quote]

OtarTheMad

Amottica wrote: »

Photosniper89 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

<snip>
The issue I really think is just constant communication. ZOS should probably put PvP re-architecture and lag fix on a bulletin board and seriously just update us all at least quarterly when they have those ESO Lives promoting the next DLC. Even making it part of the article afterwards for those who missed it, a small thing like that will go far I think. At least for me it will.

[snip]
I love your idea, and wish it would actually happen. It won't though.

[snip]

I think that second part is why I have always held onto that they care about PvP but it is just hard for them to figure it out. ZOS’ reputation is going to follow them from game to game so from a business side of things it benefits them an insane amount to fix PvP.

As it stands right now I wouldn’t buy another game made by this company, even if it was made by a different team, doesn’t matter… same company so why bother. I doubt they want that type of thing following them.

Do we even know what is going on with the re-architecture of PvP code? I know it would take a few years when they announced it but I thought we’d get some update along the way. Overall what is going on with PvP and what has been for years is just weird to me.

Nope, we don't have a flippin idea what is going on with the re architecture. Honestly, I'd be shocked if they said they didn't sideline that project already. They have talked about how much better they need to improve the communication with the player base but we all know that they mean with the PvE player base. [snip]

I mean, when was the last thing PvP got anything worth a damn? (No one asked for guard kill notifications or a kill feed)

I might have missed the point but Matt seemed to be very clear that the re-architecture was not providing the expected improvements and that they are still looking for a means to improve performance.

As unfortunate as this is, it sounds like the only update they could provide at this time is they are still searching for a solution. Hopefully, we will get better news in his end-of-year address. Hopefully but we have been through this before.

At this point I doubt it. I think there will always be some sort of lag, because some of it is the players fault. Whether we want to admit that or not it’s true. Lag has always been in Cyrodiil even way back in 2014, just the server population caps were bigger. I remember during the original 90 day campaigns guilds coming into my campaign and saying stuff like “wow, my abilities work here.”

Problem is that the issue grew over time and since Cyrodiil is a giant and basically open zone with the most going on in terms of coding it’s hard to pinpoint, I am guessing at this point, what lag is caused by us and what lag/performance issues are caused by bugs/software/hardware or whatever.

And Cyrodiil is giant, I think you can fit 2 chapter sized zones in it and it’s all just open except delves. That’s taxing on a server, especially ones this old. I hope I am wrong and they update us with good news and things get to a point where maybe there is still lag but it is a laughable level and not game breaking/rage inducing.

[edited to remove quote]

SaffronCitrusflower

Amottica wrote: »

Photosniper89 wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

blktauna wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

<snip>
The issue I really think is just constant communication. ZOS should probably put PvP re-architecture and lag fix on a bulletin board and seriously just update us all at least quarterly when they have those ESO Lives promoting the next DLC. Even making it part of the article afterwards for those who missed it, a small thing like that will go far I think. At least for me it will.

[snip]
I love your idea, and wish it would actually happen. It won't though.

[snip]

I think that second part is why I have always held onto that they care about PvP but it is just hard for them to figure it out. ZOS’ reputation is going to follow them from game to game so from a business side of things it benefits them an insane amount to fix PvP.

As it stands right now I wouldn’t buy another game made by this company, even if it was made by a different team, doesn’t matter… same company so why bother. I doubt they want that type of thing following them.

Do we even know what is going on with the re-architecture of PvP code? I know it would take a few years when they announced it but I thought we’d get some update along the way. Overall what is going on with PvP and what has been for years is just weird to me.

Nope, we don't have a flippin idea what is going on with the re architecture. Honestly, I'd be shocked if they said they didn't sideline that project already. They have talked about how much better they need to improve the communication with the player base but we all know that they mean with the PvE player base. [snip]

I mean, when was the last thing PvP got anything worth a damn? (No one asked for guard kill notifications or a kill feed)

I might have missed the point but Matt seemed to be very clear that the re-architecture was not providing the expected improvements and that they are still looking for a means to improve performance.

As unfortunate as this is, it sounds like the only update they could provide at this time is they are still searching for a solution. Hopefully, we will get better news in his end-of-year address. Hopefully but we have been through this before.

Historically, dedicating more server resources to Cyrodiil has always helped lag and other issues very noticeably. Why doesn't ZOS just dedicate more server resources to the game, Cyrodiil in particular?

[edited to remove quote]

React

We're rapidly approaching the 2 year mark now of when this project was announced, after being told it should be complete in a years time from the announcement. The only significant update we've received in this time is that "the work they've done did not have the expected results and there is no ETA for completion".

I think most people would understand if the issues are simply not able to be resolved by the developers at zenimax, if not for the "we cannot release PVP content until this work is completed" part. At this point, it feels totally disingenuous to pretend that nothing can be done to imperial city, BGs, dueling, or a new PVP zone because of the issues in cyrodiil. It has been 5 years without PVP content, as of Q1 2024. If this project isn't happening, please tell us that and give a timeline for new content outside of cyrodiil. The neglect is so far beyond acceptable.

Wolfkeks

PvP population cap test - December 6 to 12

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648108/cyrodiil-population-cap-testing#latest

RMW

Wolfkeks wrote: »

PvP population cap test - December 6 to 12

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648108/cyrodiil-population-cap-testing#latest

PC EU only though, right?
At least if the lag/desync/bugs spike they will see it now I guess

laniakea_0

Wolfkeks wrote: »

PvP population cap test - December 6 to 12

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648108/cyrodiil-population-cap-testing#latest

this is a good sign. even if they don't communicate, it cannot be denied anymore that they are indeed working on improvements.

SaffronCitrusflower

laniakea_0 wrote: »

Wolfkeks wrote: »

PvP population cap test - December 6 to 12

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648108/cyrodiil-population-cap-testing#latest

this is a good sign. even if they don't communicate, it cannot be denied anymore that they are indeed working on improvements.

We'll see.

OtarTheMad

laniakea_0 wrote: »

Wolfkeks wrote: »

PvP population cap test - December 6 to 12

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648108/cyrodiil-population-cap-testing#latest

this is a good sign. even if they don't communicate, it cannot be denied anymore that they are indeed working on improvements.

Definitely a good sign, they are trying different things. We’ll see what happens.

RMW

Not pinned anymore.
@ZOS_Kevin so no updates anymore?

Elsonso

RMW wrote: »

Not pinned anymore.
ZOS_Kevin so no updates anymore?

Six months, almost to the day. Seems like more of a cleanup or an expired pin.

If there was going to be an update, I expect it would be in a new thread. He did not say there would be further scheduled updates, though.

The tone back in July was more "farewell" than "see you later", which is not encouraging.

Wolfkeks

RMW wrote: »

Not pinned anymore.
@ZOS_Kevin so no updates anymore?

Agreeing with above. Tone sounds not encouraging - so wouldn't hold my breath regarding this project.

SaffronCitrusflower

They've given up on PvP. They lowered the pop cap yet again after the test.

Wolfkeks wrote: »

PvP population cap test - December 6 to 12

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/648108/cyrodiil-population-cap-testing#latest

Elsonso

They set the Cyrodiil caps back to what it was before the test. If they reduced it after that, this would be unconfirmed.

"We have set the population cap numbers back to what they were prior to this test to ensure the best balance between server response and client inputs. "

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8012397/#Comment_8012397

SaffronCitrusflower

Elsonso wrote: »

They set the Cyrodiil caps back to what it was before the test. If they reduced it after that, this would be unconfirmed.

"We have set the population cap numbers back to what they were prior to this test to ensure the best balance between server response and client inputs. "

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8012397/#Comment_8012397

I prefer to rely upon data collected in game.

reazea

Elsonso wrote: »

They set the Cyrodiil caps back to what it was before the test. If they reduced it after that, this would be unconfirmed.

"We have set the population cap numbers back to what they were prior to this test to ensure the best balance between server response and client inputs. "

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8012397/#Comment_8012397

Maybe at the time that was written it was true. Since then they have reduced the pop cap to 60/faction or even less. It makes me sad and a bit angry to be treated so.

alternatelder

reazea wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

They set the Cyrodiil caps back to what it was before the test. If they reduced it after that, this would be unconfirmed.

"We have set the population cap numbers back to what they were prior to this test to ensure the best balance between server response and client inputs. "

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8012397/#Comment_8012397

Maybe at the time that was written it was true. Since then they have reduced the pop cap to 60/faction or even less. It makes me sad and a bit angry to be treated so.

I highly doubt it's at 60 or less. Much higher than that.

reazea

alternatelder wrote: »

reazea wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

They set the Cyrodiil caps back to what it was before the test. If they reduced it after that, this would be unconfirmed.

"We have set the population cap numbers back to what they were prior to this test to ensure the best balance between server response and client inputs. "

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8012397/#Comment_8012397

Maybe at the time that was written it was true. Since then they have reduced the pop cap to 60/faction or even less. It makes me sad and a bit angry to be treated so.

I highly doubt it's at 60 or less. Much higher than that.

How often are you in Cyrodiil? Those of us who log on solely to play in Cyrodiil have all noticed a significant change in the last couple weeks, and we are just now speaking out about it after weeks of observing the changes. We noticed the changes right away, but we didn't speak out until enough time had passed that there is no denying the changes have been made.

Elsonso

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

How often are you in Cyrodiil? Those of us who log on solely to play in Cyrodiil have all noticed a significant change in the last couple weeks, and we are just now speaking out about it after weeks of observing the changes. We noticed the changes right away, but we didn't speak out until enough time had passed that there is no denying the changes have been made.

I am curious as to what is being seen, and how that confirms population cap changes.

SaffronCitrusflower

Elsonso wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

How often are you in Cyrodiil? Those of us who log on solely to play in Cyrodiil have all noticed a significant change in the last couple weeks, and we are just now speaking out about it after weeks of observing the changes. We noticed the changes right away, but we didn't speak out until enough time had passed that there is no denying the changes have been made.

I am curious as to what is being seen, and how that confirms population cap changes.

There are many threads going about this issue and what people are seeing. Check the PvP forums.

Wolfkeks

Elsonso wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

How often are you in Cyrodiil? Those of us who log on solely to play in Cyrodiil have all noticed a significant change in the last couple weeks, and we are just now speaking out about it after weeks of observing the changes. We noticed the changes right away, but we didn't speak out until enough time had passed that there is no denying the changes have been made.

I am curious as to what is being seen, and how that confirms population cap changes.

The queue times are higher even after the intital test ended in December which is unusual since there is no double AP event anymore. Normally the queue times will be back to normal after such events (like Midyear Mayhem). So players are now wondering if this means that the cap got reduced.

There is a discussion here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650175/did-cyrodiil-population-caps-get-further-reduced

But hard to tell since I don't think anyone knows what the player cap is (and it's hard to test it).

TechMaybeHic

Wolfkeks wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

How often are you in Cyrodiil? Those of us who log on solely to play in Cyrodiil have all noticed a significant change in the last couple weeks, and we are just now speaking out about it after weeks of observing the changes. We noticed the changes right away, but we didn't speak out until enough time had passed that there is no denying the changes have been made.

I am curious as to what is being seen, and how that confirms population cap changes.

The queue times are higher even after the intital test ended in December which is unusual since there is no double AP event anymore. Normally the queue times will be back to normal after such events (like Midyear Mayhem). So players are now wondering if this means that the cap got reduced.

There is a discussion here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/650175/did-cyrodiil-population-caps-get-further-reduced

But hard to tell since I don't think anyone knows what the player cap is (and it's hard to test it).

Campaign ended and started. Queues change depending on movement to different factions for the lock