Tension rising within the community?

Hoghorn

Vhozek wrote: »

I've been noticing it gets more and more tense in-game in the past few months whenever someone brings up the topic about overland difficulty. More than a year ago, people would disagree with each other about their proposed changes to the game to make overland combat more fulfilling and engaging. Right now it seems that the moment you bring up the topic, one group tells the other to leave the game and then the entire chat gets real quiet.
I hope this doesn't create a toxic environment within the in-game chat and would be great if there's something ZOS can do about it, either to reduce the tension or put the topic to rest.
I wonder if inaction from ZOS has something to do with it as the idea to make overland more difficult and/or make combat more engaging gains more and more traction.

Does anyone else see this or is it just me? Do you feel like the tension is rising ingame between casual players and more experienced ones?

i've never seen anyone ever mention overland difficulty in zone or gchat, you are always online

Elsonso

BlueRaven wrote: »

You have to keep in mind Zos just nerfed casual players dps (via oaken-soul & ha builds), while at the same time stripped them of content (via world events/bastion nymics), announced no additional questing content for a year, while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot).

Don't forget that not even a year ago, we had "Update 35".

The proper response to unhappiness with things like nerfs, auction house, overland difficulty, AwA, Update 35, and Necrom is to leave the game, forum, and community... if it is just something that cannot be adapted to. This not an ambiguous decision and is a normal thing when people are dissatisfied with a product or service. Standing around bickering about it says that, even though the customer is unhappy, they are still here and still engaged. Mixed message.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it.

As with all of these forum conflicts, there are two sides to the coin that people are fighting over. It is unusual for the participants to care about both sides.

Reverb

ADarklore wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I doubt ANY game developer on this planet would say such nonsense.

Maybe try to google the terms you just used.

It's a misrepresented quote. I saw that stream too.

Do you have a link for me, where a zos representative isn't aware of the fact that MMORPG is the oldest and original subgenre of MMO?

Well, here is one quote from an interview with Matt Firor, "In an interview with the TheGamer, ZeniMax Online Studios director Matt Firor examined the game’s journey since launch and, surprisingly, took a moment to clarify that he does not believe the popular, online-only title is really a massively multiplayer online game. “I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO,” Firor states after having been asked which MMO, outside of Elder Scrolls Online, he most enjoyed."

You refer to this statement here?

MF: I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO, in the traditional “MMORPG” sense of the word, because that term is freighted with a lot of definitions that don’t apply to ESO (tab targeting, mouse movement, PC-only, super hardcore, etc.). At this point, so many game types have underlying “massively multiplayer” technology that MMO is becoming even more dated as a term. I’ve long been a fan of online games – I’ve been in the game industry since the late 1980s and I’ve never shipped a single-player game – all of them have been multiplayer. As such, I love all types of online gaming interaction: Fifa, World of Warcraft, the last-man-standing shooters, etc. My first big MMORPG as a gamer was Everquest, although I dabbled a bit in Ultima Online before that.

Source: https://www.thegamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview/

This Interview is quite outdated though, as they explicitely name the update cadence of content as unique selling point. You shouldn't have missed it either, that exactly this has been canceled with 2023.

Framing also needs to be learned

Actually, I'm referring to THIS article from Screenrant.

I like how you cherry pick what you want to be true of today and what is outdated. I doubt Matt's thoughts on whether he thinks ESO is an MMO or not are outdated.

Your link isn’t an interview. It’s Screenrant cherry picking pieces of the Gamer interview and publishing them without context. They clearly state “in an interview with Gamer” which links to exactly the article the person you responded to was quoting.

BlueRaven

Elsonso wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

You have to keep in mind Zos just nerfed casual players dps (via oaken-soul & ha builds), while at the same time stripped them of content (via world events/bastion nymics), announced no additional questing content for a year, while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot).

Don't forget that not even a year ago, we had "Update 35".

The proper response to unhappiness with things like nerfs, auction house, overland difficulty, AwA, Update 35, and Necrom is to leave the game, forum, and community... if it is just something that cannot be adapted to. This not an ambiguous decision and is a normal thing when people are dissatisfied with a product or service. Standing around bickering about it says that, even though the customer is unhappy, they are still here and still engaged. Mixed message.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it.

As with all of these forum conflicts, there are two sides to the coin that people are fighting over. It is unusual for the participants to care about both sides.

U35 also nerfed vet bosses by 10% I recall.

But anyway, it’s not like in the past they have not added arenas AND true world events at the same time.

They could have added nymics (harder content) and no one would have been bothered by it. But they called them world events, in what feels like a way to spite a portion of their player base. It was a really passive aggressive move.

Adding harder content is not a controversial move. Taking content away from a portion of their player base, repackaging it as something else, while not changing the name, just invites conflict.

Edit: Just to be clear, zos set up this conflict by their own actions.

ApoAlaia

Elsonso wrote: »

Don't forget that not even a year ago, we had "Update 35".

Jestir

Honestly, these forums have always been like this.

People wouldn't be here if they didn't have something they were willing to aggressively argue, it was also a big part of the reason I didn't bother having an account here for several years, I wasn't attached enough to the game.

Doesn't help that most posters don't go any where but the general section and any sort of topic that could start a real discussion is left on the other sections of the forum to die.

Braffin

Sometimes it's really interesting how things stay the same while time moves on. Of course the side you find yourself on may change, but the discussions stay the same:

We had quite similar issues not even a year back, was a nice read (my personal favourite is #19):

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611855/competitive-players-the-most-mistreated-eso-demographic/p1

HappyTheCamper

SithisKhajitiiLamae wrote: »

Are you guys all pc players? Im only asking because I have played on consoles exclusively and I have never heard any of these complaints in game or in my guild Discord servers.

Agreed. With the exception of occasional toxic chats that get silly or political (looking at you Xbox NA Grahtwood), Xbox has been very chill.

Edit: with that said I will say Bastion Nymics, while fun, are veeeeery long. Like for a single daily quest they take forever even with a good group. Also the Irrefutable Herald boss might be bugged? It’s one-shot mind mechanic still happens even when interrupted sometimes.

Soarora

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Things are definitely tense. The intensive nerfs and decisions that drove endgame to life support, people cheering and saying “well you guys like the meta shifts anyway”, then the oakensoul thing… can’t even mention oakensoul without being told its secretly a nerf oakensoul comment… the game is supporting casuals more and more it feels, which includes toxic casuals… a problem and cause of this. Normal casuals are completely fine, toxic casuals are absolutely not. It’s in the name, after all.

I see more of ther term called toxic endgamers, than this mythical toxic casual term.

Overland can get harder if premade group finder works well with.

Premade group finder is coming this year

There of course is a group of toxic people on both sides, that’s just the nature of us. Toxic casuals however get extremely offended about being called toxic casuals, yet sling toxic elitist around like no tomorrow. One of those “don’t throw rocks from glass houses” but the glass hits everyone so there’s no point in reasonably throwing rocks back. Premade group finder won’t help with this as many toxic casuals are strictly solo and want to pretend this is a single player game on the easiest setting. Even when it comes to doing group content, they want it easier. Everything from group bosses to trial trifectas must be easier, because it’s “just a game” and thus no one should ever have any trouble killing anything and prog shouldn’t exist.

Reverb

Bleakz wrote: »

Honestly, these forums have always been like this.

OP isn’t talking about the forums though, they are specifically referring to a perceived increase in tensions between players in game.

KronikFlatulenz

They could let players choose difficulty. Like in dungeons. Normal or veteran. That way everyones happy. Except the coders i guess.

Soarora

BlueRaven wrote: »

You have to keep in mind Zos just nerfed casual players dps (via oaken-soul & ha builds), while at the same time stripped them of content (via world events/bastion nymics), announced no additional questing content for a year, while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot).

And this happened all in one patch.

So yeah, there is going to be complaints.

Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it.

So yeah, there is going to be conflict.

Casual players dps — not everyone uses HA builds. It’s not HA or nothing.

Nerfed HA builds — the nerf did basically nothing. Still oakensorc-only dungeon and trial groups. Still basically same damage. People have been saying this whole time that the nerf wasn’t going to do anything, it didn’t, [Snip]

Stripped of content — how is this? Are casuals soloing harrowstorms and dragons? I was a casual once and let me tell you, never in my imagination did I think it was even possible to solo world events. Bring one person and 2 companions and you’re better off doing a nymic than any other world event apart from dark anchors. I think I would have loved nymics as a casual, especially because I’ve always enjoyed dungeons.

No additional questing content for a year — [Snip]. We lost 2 dungeons. We’re even. Besides, would you rather an awful broken up storyline for the third year in a row or a much more compelling and deep narrative with a longer wait?

Transmute — you can repair cyrodiil walls or chase a group around cyrodiil and get transmute that way too. Not sure why they’d nerf ToT transmute though.

Exclusive content— what exclusive content? vSE, vSE HM? Both of which are placed as easier than RG (HM) and DSR (HM)? Not like I’m complaining, RG HM and DSR HM difficulty is extreme given the inability of me to even find groups to get HMs there.

[Edited for minor bait]

BlueRaven

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

You have to keep in mind Zos just nerfed casual players dps (via oaken-soul & ha builds), while at the same time stripped them of content (via world events/bastion nymics), announced no additional questing content for a year, while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot).

And this happened all in one patch.

So yeah, there is going to be complaints.

Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it.

So yeah, there is going to be conflict.

Casual players dps — not everyone uses HA builds. It’s not HA or nothing.

Nerfed HA builds — the nerf did basically nothing. Still oakensorc-only dungeon and trial groups. Still basically same damage. People have been saying this whole time that the nerf wasn’t going to do anything, it didn’t, [Snip]

Stripped of content — how is this? Are casuals soloing harrowstorms and dragons? I was a casual once and let me tell you, never in my imagination did I think it was even possible to solo world events. Bring one person and 2 companions and you’re better off doing a nymic than any other world event apart from dark anchors. I think I would have loved nymics as a casual, especially because I’ve always enjoyed dungeons.

No additional questing content for a year — [Snip]. We lost 2 dungeons. We’re even. Besides, would you rather an awful broken up storyline for the third year in a row or a much more compelling and deep narrative with a longer wait?

Transmute — you can repair cyrodiil walls or chase a group around cyrodiil and get transmute that way too. Not sure why they’d nerf ToT transmute though.

Exclusive content— what exclusive content? vSE, vSE HM? Both of which are placed as easier than RG (HM) and DSR (HM)? Not like I’m complaining, RG HM and DSR HM difficulty is extreme given the inability of me to even find groups to get HMs there.

[Snip]

I mentioned ha builds as a separate thing from oakensoul builds They overlap but are not the same thing. They were both nerfed.

Two dungeons were not “lost”, one of them is now labeled as a world event (nymics), the second is coming later this year as an “endless dungeon”. Dungeon.

“ while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot)”
Was pvp transmute rewards just introduced? No? Then they lost an avenue to get them, didn’t they.,.

Dragons and world bosses could be done without being in a group. So in a way, they were soloable. Can a casual (sub 25k dps) do a nymic without grouping? Or is it “exclude content” for the more higher end players…

[Edited quote and minor bait]

Credible_Joe

kynesgrove wrote: »

There is definitely a duality that is much more apparent these past few months.

I would call myself a mid-player. I used to think I was a casual but with the ongoing infighting I see I am MID.

I don't do trials. But I love duoing and soloing anything for the challenge.
Like non-DLC vet dungeons, Vet Arenas, World Bosses etc.
Which also means I'm relegated to using non-trial gear setups.
My average DPS is a pitiful 25k to 40k on good days.

@kynesgrove Just wanna shout out that you can definitely do trials.

I also used to believe I would never peak above 40k DPS. I struggled to hit 35k. But then, just for fun, I parsed on a trial dummy.

Trial dummies automatically cast healer and tank buffs on you with 100% uptime, as well as debuffs on themselves such as crusher. Also shards you can synergize as much as you want for endless sustain.

This effectively doubles your DPS. I easily hit 65k. 70k with perfect input. You can definitely hit 80k in trials. You can even unslot most of your self-buff skills; swap in extra DOTs, relying on your group's synergies. I wouldn't be surprised if you could hit 100k.

This isn't explained anywhere, and I believed for 9 years that I would never be able to do vet trial content. I only discovered I easily qualify for endgame content a few months ago.

Elsonso

Reverb wrote: »

Bleakz wrote: »

Honestly, these forums have always been like this.

OP isn’t talking about the forums though, they are specifically referring to a perceived increase in tensions between players in game.

Hmm. I thought it was just worded odd and what they were concerned about was forum tension building with an associated concern about it spreading into the game.

I have not noticed any unusual tension on PC NA.

Braffin

BlueRaven wrote: »

[Snip]

[Snip]

BlueRaven wrote: »

I mentioned ha builds as a separate thing from oakensoul builds They overlap but are not the same thing. They were both nerfed.

It has been shown several times that the "nerfs" didn't impact dps of casual players (sub 25k). If you say otherwise you'll have to bring proof. Mathematical answers preferred.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Two dungeons were not “lost”, one of them is now labeled as a world event (nymics), the second is coming later this year as an “endless dungeon”. Dungeon.

[Snip]. Even if you feel, that nymics (which are indeed an instanced world event) are recycled dungeon content (don't know how you got insight in Q4's endless dungeon aside from soothsaying), there will definitely not be the usual dungeon DLC in Q3 but necessary QoL improvements (and probably further nerfs for some broken build, but that remains to be seen). So a full DLC for non-casual players (above 25k dps) is lost.

BlueRaven wrote: »

Dragons and world bosses could be done without being in a group. So in a way, they were soloable. Can a casual (sub 25k dps) do a nymic without grouping? Or is it “exclude content” for the more higher end players…

Nobody, least of all zos, ever asserted that dragons (world events) and world bosses in general are intended for soloing them. They are clearly group content, as stated in the game itself. Same goes for nymics, which are also world events (although instanced, I'll give you that much) So nobody is excluded from any content published, besides people which are limiting themselves for unknown reasons by treating a multiplayer game as skyrim 2.0.

I spare both of us talk about development resources, but yeah, I indeed partially (namely regarding toxic casuals) share your opinion on that topic.

[Edited quote and removed content/minor bait]

Soarora

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

You have to keep in mind Zos just nerfed casual players dps (via oaken-soul & ha builds), while at the same time stripped them of content (via world events/bastion nymics), announced no additional questing content for a year, while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot).

And this happened all in one patch.

So yeah, there is going to be complaints.

Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it.

So yeah, there is going to be conflict.

Casual players dps — not everyone uses HA builds. It’s not HA or nothing.

Nerfed HA builds — the nerf did basically nothing. Still oakensorc-only dungeon and trial groups. Still basically same damage. People have been saying this whole time that the nerf wasn’t going to do anything, it didn’t, and yet people are acting like the world is crashing and burning…

Stripped of content — how is this? Are casuals soloing harrowstorms and dragons? I was a casual once and let me tell you, never in my imagination did I think it was even possible to solo world events. Bring one person and 2 companions and you’re better off doing a nymic than any other world event apart from dark anchors. I think I would have loved nymics as a casual, especially because I’ve always enjoyed dungeons.

No additional questing content for a year — you’re not special. We lost 2 dungeons. We’re even. Besides, would you rather an awful broken up storyline for the third year in a row or a much more compelling and deep narrative with a longer wait?

Transmute — you can repair cyrodiil walls or chase a group around cyrodiil and get transmute that way too. Not sure why they’d nerf ToT transmute though.

Exclusive content— what exclusive content? vSE, vSE HM? Both of which are placed as easier than RG (HM) and DSR (HM)? Not like I’m complaining, RG HM and DSR HM difficulty is extreme given the inability of me to even find groups to get HMs there.

[Snip]

I mentioned ha builds as a separate thing from oakensoul builds They overlap but are not the same thing. They were both nerfed.

Two dungeons were not “lost”, one of them is now labeled as a world event (nymics), the second is coming later this year as an “endless dungeon”. Dungeon.

“ while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot)”
Was pvp transmute rewards just introduced? No? Then they lost an avenue to get them, didn’t they.,.

Dragons and world bosses could be done without being in a group. So in a way, they were soloable. Can a casual (sub 25k dps) do a nymic without grouping? Or is it “exclude content” for the more higher end players…

[Snip]

1. You’re failing to explain how it is they were nerfed, just parroting once again that it is. Several people are saying their damage is maybe 5k or less lower than it was before. Of course, 2-bar HA needs help but until ZOS overhauls HA by nerfing 1-bar heavily then buffing 2-bar to take its place, 2-bar HA is going to be in the gutter.

2. [Snip] incorrect statement on the nature of dungeons. For a dungeoneer like me, a dungeon comes with: motif, style page, new gear, normal/vet/HM, a slew of associated achievements including trifecta, etc. that will make the dungeon last as a content to repeat for months to years. A nymic is not a dungeon, it’s a 4-man content that’s basically between normal dlc and vet dlc levels of difficulty. Maybe a bit tougher than vet non-DLC, but definitely not vet DLC level (since you can 4-DPS easily and the mechanics are simple). The endless dungeon is a 2-player generated experience, also not a dungeon in the sense I mean. Are we going to call public dungeons dungeons too now? They’re not. Might I add that 4-man arenas aren’t dungeons either?

3. Were ToT transmute rewards removed? If not, didn’t lose it as an option either. I’m just saying there’s another way to get transmute without doing dungeons.

4. What casual does a worldboss without grouping first? I didn’t, because dangling the quest in zone chat is how to get people to come help. Besides, it’s not like world events are popular. Harrowstorms feel so empty now. Additionally, how does the ability to join a group with 3 other people by talking to someone in zone chat what separates people from the “higher end”? Is basic communication a gate now? I ran a nymic the other day. Just told people to say a codeword to trigger my autoinvite. Two of them didn’t say anything the entire time from what I recall. It’s not that hard.

[Edited quote and removed content/minor bait]

Marcus684

I'm curious which in-game chat OP is referring to. I play PC/NA and haven't noticed it in any of the zones I frequent lately, mostly Necrom zones and random other zones while collecting skyshards and doing dailies. If it's in the base game starter zones (Glenumbra/Stonefalls/Auridon), I'd definitely be careful coming to any conclusions based on chat in those zones, as they are known cesspools of toxic trolls who seem like they'd rather try to get a rise out of other players than actually play the game.

Finedaible

I think everyone is too caught up in arguing about difficulty when that is not even the issue.

The real issue is a lack of fulfilling content with worthwhile rewards and the hard segregation between zone (overland) and instanced content. These two types of content never interact with each other and have no intuitive transition between them. Grouping up can be a slow and cumbersome process sometimes that doesn't always work out, especially at slow times of the day. I think what people really want for overland is something more akin to Craglorn where you can stumble upon something you struggle with a bit, but there's always the possibility someone else comes along to help; like Public Dungeons but harder like Craglorn.

Without any good overland sets or other useful rewards though, content like dailies has a limited lifetime and no appeal after the achievements have been completed. Motifs, style materials, and furnishing plans, and paltry gold for my time are not rewards to me. Alchemy mats, crafting materials, upgrade materials, and sets I can actually use to make my character stronger is stuff that people would continue to grind dailies for indefinitely.

Alharion

Personally, I came back to TESO for his PVP that I missed, but when I see how much worse it is than before, it really doesn't make me want to play TESO anymore.

Playing a Nighblade stam becomes extremely disloyal if you want to do anything other than gank, while the magic players themselves can play their cheated trick while quietly protecting themselves, and at the moment the anti-game boundary arcanist has even more disgust with PVP.

I was hoping to see a PVP in better condition, but apparently ZOS doesn't care about that, as usual with this kind of game, they involve PVP, but afterwards, they completely ignore the state of this part of the content...

It is supposed to have DPS, TANK roles etc, but you have to play survival 3/4 instead of being dps and again this is when the classes have the right to the favor of the devs...

Moreover the saddest point of the game is to see always this same forcing, you have to have this to be credible in PVP, always the same weapons that dominate, always the same ones that must galvanize...

I would really like to create my own style of game and not the thing that X decided!!!

SilverBride

Dr_Con wrote: »

I don't see nasty arguments in-game where people shut eachother down about overland content, I only see exaggerated stories and viewpoints on the forums about the way things should be from toxic people on both sides (toxic casuals and toxic elitists), with everyone else inbetween.

I haven't seen this in game either.

I play every day and not once have I ever seen anyone in zone chat, or guild chat or anywhere ever mention anything about overland and it's difficulty. The only place this has been an issue is on the forums.

ProudMary

For me the in game social environment is largely created by ZOS and the shift in their business model 4-5 years after release to focus on the casual aspects of the game and to essentially ignore player feedback and positive interactions with the player base. ZOS has been steadily moving more and more toward a cash cow business model since about 4-5 years after game release and they just keep moving more and more in the direction of creating ways to get more out of the customer instead of how they can make the game better, more fun, and more popular. I mean, wouldn't more players generate more income for the company even if it was a tiny bit less revenue from each player? There is essentially zero effort being put into player retention. Virtually the entire focus is how much can they get out of each new player with a high player turnover rate.

My biggest complaint is that instead of maintaining enough server capacity to keep cyrodiil running smoothly they just kept reducing the population caps to the point that they can't reduce the cap any lower now. There used to be 400 players/faction in cryodiil when all factions were pop locked, now it's closer to 80 players/faction at pop lock. Cyrodiil used to be the most unique and fun MMO environment ever created. Now it's just a shadow of what it used to be.

In just less than the last year ZOS has completely ignored and refused to comment on a bunch of key player complaints. They've refused to respond to the end game community about changes made in U35. They've refused to respond to the complaints about changes made to the jabs and flurry animations. They've refused to respond to whether or not removing the faction health bonus for achieving emp in Cyrodiil is a bug or intended. (they won't even respond to whether its a bug or intended) They've failed to fix or respond to crown crate gifting, and I could go on. This is in just than less than the last year of examples where ZOS has more or less just ignored the feedback from the player base and given us a "take it or leave it" proposition. It feels abusive to a lot of us who truly enjoy the game and have played it for almost a decade now.

For the long term players, those of us who've been here since the beginning, this is the environment ZOS has created. We keep hoping things will revert back to the way they were in the first 3-4 years of how customer interactions were, but it's just not happening and it feels like this is just how it's going to be now; "take it or leave it".

The in game environment is created from he top down, not from the bottom up.

I'm actually afraid of what might happen after I press the "post reply" button right now, but I'm going to push it anyway.

Cheers to those who take the time to read this if this turns out to be the last post I'm allowed to make on this forum. This is what constructive criticism looks like.

I_killed_Vivec

Toxic casuals?

Apparently they hit for less than 25k dps so not much to worry about in any case

I suppose HA Oakensorcs who used to be casual but now hit for over 100k without even trying can get a bit jittery when people start talking about nerfs to their builds that would keep them out of content they've only just started enjoying... but honestly, who likes a nerf?

In any case, those Oakensorcs aren't going to be bothered by an increase in overland difficulty, they melt everything already, so I can't see why they'd be the "toxic" ones objecting to it.

1T was brought in because, contrary to some, the majority of people don't like hard overland and abandoned the increasing difficulty provided by the VR system. So I can't see ZoS changing it now.

It would appear that it's a done deal, it ain't happening. The best way to stop the toxicity is to stop talking about it - which is why ZoS made the sticky, so people who want to shout can go there and shout.

Without disturbing the non-toxics.

tomofhyrule

Finedaible wrote: »

I think what people really want for overland is something more akin to Craglorn where you can stumble upon something you struggle with a bit, but there's always the possibility someone else comes along to help; like Public Dungeons but harder like Craglorn.

Fine, I'll allow myself to get dragged into this one.

This is my biggest issue with a 'separate instance' of vet/normal overland. Yes, I know about all of the "but optional!!" arguments, but splitting the playerbase will directly lead to this idea.

If a new player is questing through Glenumbra and then gets clapped by the three werewolves north of Aldcroft, then they'll be disappointed. Eventually they'll hope someone walks by to help them with that WB. But if all of the vet players are off in their own instance, will anyone be walking by to stumble upon it to help? Sure, if we get four or five newbies together, then they'll be able to chain res to get the WB down, but what about the WBs in the newer DLC zones which actually have wipe mechanics (how many times have I seen one of Glemyos' walls wipe most of the people there?).

I realize that worlds are instanced right now. I also realize that zones with more instances (like Vvardenfell or Summerset, because of the number of people at the crafting centers) have loads of problems finding people to do WBs (because the people are all at the crafting center doing writs instead of going around the zone) than zones that are less-populated but the people are going around the zone.

Anyway, another big issue is this:

Finedaible wrote: »

The real issue is a lack of fulfilling content with worthwhile rewards
...
Without any good overland sets or other useful rewards though, content like dailies has a limited lifetime and no appeal after the achievements have been completed.

As many people say "I just want more hard content for the enjoyment of it!" there's an equal number of people saying things like "why run random vets when random normals give the same reward?" People are already complaining about the time investment vs. reward for Bastion Nymics. Will they still be run after people are done farming the motif they eventually drop? Does anybody currently run Blackwood Oblivion portals considering the Annihilarch motif only drops from the Deadlands version?

There's also the issue that people don't agree on how they want the difficulty. Some people would be okay with just a "debuff myself" mechanic so the fights take long enough to actually build Crux. But a lot of people don't just want bullet sponges for the sake of long fights. They want more mechanics added to overland. Now ZOS had been getting a lot better at putting more and more mechanics into overland with later and later DLCs (we've even got mechanically interesting Delve bosses now). But that's not trivial in the slightest and would require rebuilding every encounter in the game.

---

Anyway, to not go too far off-topic vis-à-vis difficulty:

I haven't noticed any tensions in game chats or zone chats beyond the standard political rants that tend to pop up in every MMO at some points, but I do feel that the forums have been super tense for a while... I think since U35. There's also an increased number of "I don't play this game anymore, but I'm here just to complain about it" posts.

It does feel like every nerf, no matter how minor, is treated as 'literally killing [class X] and making it unplayable.' We've seen at least three people claiming every patch would 'kill the game,' even when the nerf is something that can be worked around pretty easily. Case in point: the number of people complaining that the timer on Crux is making Arcanist absolutely F-tier and they want refunds for Necrom, when the only thing is that it asks you now to actively use your class Crux-generating abilities in combat (which... was the intention, according to the devs during the reveal event).

I just have gotten the feeling that the forums have just been a pit of negativity lately. I wish we got more threads like "show off your awesome screenshots!"... and then those threads stayed in General and not get shunted to another forum that nobody looks at. Heck, I even thought the recent Would you give up your life to be your main? thread was kinda fun to think about and a nice relief from the negativity of the forums. And all of the threads talking about how much everyone loved Sharp was great (and a nice change from just seeing how everyone would use up to — and including — homophobic insults toward Bastian for his crime of... not liking cheese.)

BlueRaven

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

You have to keep in mind Zos just nerfed casual players dps (via oaken-soul & ha builds), while at the same time stripped them of content (via world events/bastion nymics), announced no additional questing content for a year, while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot).

And this happened all in one patch.

So yeah, there is going to be complaints.

Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it.

So yeah, there is going to be conflict.

Casual players dps — not everyone uses HA builds. It’s not HA or nothing.

Nerfed HA builds — the nerf did basically nothing. Still oakensorc-only dungeon and trial groups. Still basically same damage. People have been saying this whole time that the nerf wasn’t going to do anything, it didn’t, and yet people are acting like the world is crashing and burning…

Stripped of content — how is this? Are casuals soloing harrowstorms and dragons? I was a casual once and let me tell you, never in my imagination did I think it was even possible to solo world events. Bring one person and 2 companions and you’re better off doing a nymic than any other world event apart from dark anchors. I think I would have loved nymics as a casual, especially because I’ve always enjoyed dungeons.

No additional questing content for a year — you’re not special. We lost 2 dungeons. We’re even. Besides, would you rather an awful broken up storyline for the third year in a row or a much more compelling and deep narrative with a longer wait?

Transmute — you can repair cyrodiil walls or chase a group around cyrodiil and get transmute that way too. Not sure why they’d nerf ToT transmute though.

Exclusive content— what exclusive content? vSE, vSE HM? Both of which are placed as easier than RG (HM) and DSR (HM)? Not like I’m complaining, RG HM and DSR HM difficulty is extreme given the inability of me to even find groups to get HMs there.

[Snip]

I mentioned ha builds as a separate thing from oakensoul builds They overlap but are not the same thing. They were both nerfed.

Two dungeons were not “lost”, one of them is now labeled as a world event (nymics), the second is coming later this year as an “endless dungeon”. Dungeon.

“ while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot)”
Was pvp transmute rewards just introduced? No? Then they lost an avenue to get them, didn’t they.,.

Dragons and world bosses could be done without being in a group. So in a way, they were soloable. Can a casual (sub 25k dps) do a nymic without grouping? Or is it “exclude content” for the more higher end players…

[Snip]

1. You’re failing to explain how it is they were nerfed, just parroting once again that it is. Several people are saying their damage is maybe 5k or less lower than it was before. Of course, 2-bar HA needs help but until ZOS overhauls HA by nerfing 1-bar heavily then buffing 2-bar to take its place, 2-bar HA is going to be in the gutter.

2. [Snip] incorrect statement on the nature of dungeons. For a dungeoneer like me, a dungeon comes with: motif, style page, new gear, normal/vet/HM, a slew of associated achievements including trifecta, etc. that will make the dungeon last as a content to repeat for months to years. A nymic is not a dungeon, it’s a 4-man content that’s basically between normal dlc and vet dlc levels of difficulty. Maybe a bit tougher than vet non-DLC, but definitely not vet DLC level (since you can 4-DPS easily and the mechanics are simple). The endless dungeon is a 2-player generated experience, also not a dungeon in the sense I mean. Are we going to call public dungeons dungeons too now? They’re not. Might I add that 4-man arenas aren’t dungeons either?

3. Were ToT transmute rewards removed? If not, didn’t lose it as an option either. I’m just saying there’s another way to get transmute without doing dungeons.

4. What casual does a worldboss without grouping first? I didn’t, because dangling the quest in zone chat is how to get people to come help. Besides, it’s not like world events are popular. Harrowstorms feel so empty now. Additionally, how does the ability to join a group with 3 other people by talking to someone in zone chat what separates people from the “higher end”? Is basic communication a gate now? I ran a nymic the other day. Just told people to say a codeword to trigger my autoinvite. Two of them didn’t say anything the entire time from what I recall. It’s not that hard.

“Empower: Reduced this bonus to 70%, down from 80%.“
That is a nerf. And in the same text they explicitly single out ha builds for the reason. So yes it was a targeted nerf. And yes, if their dps went down, which was zos’s intention, that is a nerf.
If you don’t feel that was a nerf, then there is no proof of nerfs in U35 either.

So Wayrest sewers is not a dungeon then? Fungal grotto? It does not matter what your definition is. It’s a grouped instanced area.

Tot transmute rewards fell quite often, nearly everyday. Now even thought there are reports that they still fall, a week or two can go by with no drops.
Personally I did them for 9 straight days. No drops.
Guild mates have been doing them, no drops.
A person in a thread thinks they are still dropping. That is the only proof there is that they are still dropping. So at best they went from very common on the daily, to super ultra rare, at best.

People do wbs and world events (in previous content) all the time without grouping. People only grouped to share quests, if no quest was being shared, no one groups.

As a side note: I can do three dragons in less time then getting past the drop stage of a Nymic, by myself, on a sub 40k dps character AND get better rewards.
That is a true “world event” not a “dungeon with extra steps”.

[Edited quote]

Vhozek

It looks to me like the faster they address the concern, which is addressed by every single content creator I've ever seen for ESO, the better it would be for the game so we can move on from this overland difficulty debate.
I love The Elder Scrolls and it kinda sucks seeing external (to ESO) content creators diss on the game for its simplicity and their entire audience mock the game as well. Sucks even more when you can join in on the mockery.

TKo_ROUSE

BlueRaven wrote: »

You have to keep in mind Zos just nerfed casual players dps (via oaken-soul & ha builds), while at the same time stripped them of content (via world events/bastion nymics), announced no additional questing content for a year, while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot).

And this happened all in one patch.

So yeah, there is going to be complaints.

Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it.

So yeah, there is going to be conflict.

I feel like you think there are only 2 types of players? I can assure you right now most end gamers do not care about overland content, whether it be easy or hard. We are mainly here for group content trials, maybe dungeons. End gamers have been on life support for years and just like you recently got announced that we will be getting less dungeons a year and no news of additional trials.

People need to realize that there is a myriad of players between casuals' and endgamers that all want different stuff for the game. ZoS literally mentioned that they felt they had so much overland content in an interview that they wanted to put resources elsewhere (like that duo dungeon they are working on.)

Also got to love the irony of the quote here "Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it." This literally summarizes how the end game community was treated by the casual community for years. So yeah I can't say I blame people for not being upset for you.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

As this thread has derailed with baiting and insulting commentary, we've decided to close it down. Please be sure to keep our Community Rules in mind when posting on our forums.

If you would like to discuss Overland Content, please feel free to do so here.

Thank you for your understanding.