Tension rising within the community?

Vhozek

I've been noticing it gets more and more tense in-game in the past few months whenever someone brings up the topic about overland difficulty. More than a year ago, people would disagree with each other about their proposed changes to the game to make overland combat more fulfilling and engaging. Right now it seems that the moment you bring up the topic, one group tells the other to leave the game and then the entire chat gets real quiet.
I hope this doesn't create a toxic environment within the in-game chat and would be great if there's something ZOS can do about it, either to reduce the tension or put the topic to rest.
I wonder if inaction from ZOS has something to do with it as the idea to make overland more difficult and/or make combat more engaging gains more and more traction.

Does anyone else see this or is it just me? Do you feel like the tension is rising ingame between casual players and more experienced ones?

Soarora

Things are definitely tense. The intensive nerfs and decisions that drove endgame to life support, people cheering and saying “well you guys like the meta shifts anyway”, then the oakensoul thing… can’t even mention oakensoul without being told its secretly a nerf oakensoul comment… the game is supporting casuals more and more it feels, which includes toxic casuals… a problem and cause of this. Normal casuals are completely fine, toxic casuals are absolutely not. It’s in the name, after all.

Braffin

It has gotten definitely more intense, yes.

That's not necessarily a bad sign though, as the points in question, namely the nearby extinction of PvE endgame over the years (not even speaking about PvP. You'll need a masterful necromancer to revive it.) by U35 and the failed oakensoul experiment as well as the unsatisfying overland experience for more skilled players, were unadressed far too long now.

With the release of Necrom and the slightly more engaging group content found there, we see clearly that both sides aren't overly satisfied. So far as expected, one is tempted to say.

Should zos react? Definitely! Implementing some of the suggested solutions, like "veteran overland" at least partially, while keeping the experience in "normal overland" chilled, would surely help.

I'm indeed more concerned about the toxic casuals @Soarora mentioned. The pollute the climate between casual players and "sweatlords", while hiding behind strawmen (we see this behaviour especially in endgame (!) discussions, where terms like accessibility and casual experience are used the very moment you say oakensoul, followed by accusations of gatekeeping and elitism). This is nothing zos can solve, only the community is able to do so.

People playing the same game aren't enemies, they shouldn't split in opposing groups. On the contrary it should be in their best interest, that others are having fun with this game. Let casual gamers have their chilled experience, including solo dungeons and equal rewards, it's harming nobody. And let more engaged players have their veteran instances, it's also harming nobody.

Sarannah

These hot topics shouldn't be discussed in-game to be honest. There is the forum for that.

Discussions about topics are always good though, as long as people stay polite and use arguments to show why they want things to be a certain way. Even if someone 100% disagrees with me, I often give them an insightful if they use arguments and stay polite. Disagreeing is fine, but at the end of the day, we all have to get to a point where we agree to disagree and realize we are all humanbeings wanting the same things: Food, shelter, and safety for themselves and their families.

But this is a thing society is having issues with currently, where different points of view become enemies on the "other side". Where we often forget to agree to disagree, and move on. Or where we forget to grant forgiveness for mistakes someone made, and would rather cancel/ignore. Where we forget to offer help instead.

But I feel I'm going a bit off-topic.

Dr_Con

I don't see nasty arguments in-game where people shut eachother down about overland content, I only see exaggerated stories and viewpoints on the forums about the way things should be from toxic people on both sides (toxic casuals and toxic elitists), with everyone else inbetween.

kynesgrove

There is definitely a duality that is much more apparent these past few months.

I would call myself a mid-player. I used to think I was a casual but with the ongoing infighting I see I am MID.

I don't do trials. But I love duoing and soloing anything for the challenge.
Like non-DLC vet dungeons, Vet Arenas, World Bosses etc.
Which also means I'm relegated to using non-trial gear setups.
My average DPS is a pitiful 25k to 40k on good days.

I think Necrom definitely caters to players that love a little bit harder overland but aren't necessarily into trials.

I personally adore Bastion Nymics "difficulty", which its barely normal dungeon difficulty.
I duo it every day.
The herald seekers are tougher than the Bastion itself.
The bosses need some tweaking and bug fixes and I'd love a boost to the loot, but honestly, it' so refreshing.
I love instanced content.

I hope that there are more mid-players out there like me. Who aren't always into larger groups, or trials. Or meta. But also don't want to be patronized with bosses being blown over by a gust of air and enjoy a challenge and soloing the un-soloable.

I'm glad and enjoy that there is plenty of content to relax to and that there is content to grind your teeth with!
I just wish more people would realise that there are those that want a bit of a middle ground and it's okay if some things are slightly harder.

I cannot wait for the duo endless dungeon!

kargen27

I think this falls in line with if you go looking for something you will find it.

ApoAlaia

What the game needs is moar repairable buildings and other infrastructure.

There are not enough walls in Cyro!

Let us rebuild towns and hamlets, farms and villas.

Come fix with us, no tension, just zen.

Xandreia_

Ep already don't fix what they have 😂

Snamyap

Sarannah wrote: »

These hot topics shouldn't be discussed in-game to be honest. There is the forum for that.

Yeah, ZOS put up a sticky where we can rehash the same arguments till doomsday comes. Which they can conveniently ignore, give no feedback whatsoever. It's no wonder that frustration is starting to rise on both side of the fence whenever something happens that might be construed as a boon to the other side.

colossalvoids

Seen such topics mostly on launch days for chapter and dlcs and it's mostly "yeah imagine if it was made for us and not total newbies" where basically everyone agrees and shakes their head without anyone trying to argue, idk. Probably should be glad not being that much in game rn.

Content "for everyone" becomes content for no one in long perspective, it's just sad. No real point to argue there, company seems fine with their decisions, it's not gonna magically change if they're profiting as is, even if it's lackluster product overall.

Muizer

Snamyap wrote: »

Yeah, ZOS put up a sticky where we can rehash the same arguments till doomsday comes. Which they can conveniently ignore, give no feedback whatsoever.

If discussions are toxic now, imagine what they would be if ZOS gave off the impression that they matter (or worse, that it matters who is 'winning'). The best thing they can do to keep things calm is to make it absolutely clear they are going to keep their own council.

Dumping the discussion in a sticky and then not get involved at all is probably the best thing they can do.

Tra_Lalan

Imagine a game with only one fixed brithness setting default to all the players.

Some would complain that it is to bright and hurts their eyes, others would shout "please don't make it darker because I cant't see anything already". People would fight each other just to have a better game expierience for themselves. Those with different opinion would become enemies in no time. Thats just how it works between people.

Until maybe one day someone noticed that there is no one solution that makes everybody happy and the game should have different options for different players.

I agree that this fight between players is getting radical, and I also think that we shouldn fight each other, and rather force ZOS to give as options that make more of us happy with the game difficulty.

FeedbackOnly

Soarora wrote: »

Things are definitely tense. The intensive nerfs and decisions that drove endgame to life support, people cheering and saying “well you guys like the meta shifts anyway”, then the oakensoul thing… can’t even mention oakensoul without being told its secretly a nerf oakensoul comment… the game is supporting casuals more and more it feels, which includes toxic casuals… a problem and cause of this. Normal casuals are completely fine, toxic casuals are absolutely not. It’s in the name, after all.

I see more of ther term called toxic endgamers, than this mythical toxic casual term.

Overland can get harder if premade group finder works well with.

Premade group finder is coming this year

ADarklore

Muizer wrote: »

Snamyap wrote: »

Yeah, ZOS put up a sticky where we can rehash the same arguments till doomsday comes. Which they can conveniently ignore, give no feedback whatsoever.

If discussions are toxic now, imagine what they would be if ZOS gave off the impression that they matter (or worse, that it matters who is 'winning'). The best thing they can do to keep things calm is to make it absolutely clear they are going to keep their own council.

Dumping the discussion in a sticky and then not get involved at all is probably the best thing they can do.

Well, considering they've said time and time again they have no intentions of ever dividing the player base again, thus there will be no 'difficulty adjustments' in the game, but players just ignore what they have said and keep harping on it... thus, they just give them a place to vent and ignore them. If you don't want to accept what ZOS has said and want to vent... there's a forum for it... but you really have two options, either accept what they've said and keep playing, or just leave the game and find something else. But continuing to harp on this topic only brings unnecessary negativity to the game IMO.

This game is not, and never will be, designed for 'challenge' in the overland and quest locations. They had difficult overland with Craglorn as it was an area designed to be a group location, but hardly anyone ever went there and it was a wasted space. They revamped it to be soloable in all the quest locations and it became popular again. They said they would NEVER create another Craglorn 'group' zone again because of how unpopular it was... and of course they have the numbers to justify their decision.

As Rich stated in an interview, when ESO first launched after a year or so they realized that neither the MMO crowd or the Elder Scrolls crowd were happy with the game. Thus, they decided to focus on the group that was most in line with the Elder Scrolls series, and that was the players who wanted "Skyrim with friends". Thus, One Tamriel was created, and it made ESO hugely popular once more. They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

Braffin

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I doubt ANY game developer on this planet would say such nonsense.

Maybe try to google the terms you just used.

FeedbackOnly

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I doubt ANY game developer on this planet would say such nonsense.

Maybe try to google the terms you just used.

It's a misrepresented quote. I saw that stream too.

Braffin

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I doubt ANY game developer on this planet would say such nonsense.

Maybe try to google the terms you just used.

It's a misrepresented quote. I saw that stream too.

Do you have a link for me, where a zos representative isn't aware of the fact that MMORPG is the oldest and original subgenre of MMO?

washbern

In all honesty, to not cater to casuals leads to failure of the entire franchise, just look at wildstar. I think that oakensoul and other things that they create to bridge the gap between players are a great thing and keeps the lights on.

That said, I am very much in the camp of "don't forget the veterans". 1 trial per year is not enough. Dungeon rewards from vet DLC dungeons are not good enough when there is absolutely no point in such a steep learning curve for literally the same gear. Constant combat changes are not good. Class homogenization is not good.

I want to say that Necrom was the second step in the right direction, but the game needs so much more not just to survive but to bring people back. I do not know how big their dev team is but I almost feel like it should be bigger. Doubt that will happen since ZOS is working on another MMO. So, I guess, taper those expectations.

ADarklore

Braffin wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I doubt ANY game developer on this planet would say such nonsense.

Maybe try to google the terms you just used.

It's a misrepresented quote. I saw that stream too.

Do you have a link for me, where a zos representative isn't aware of the fact that MMORPG is the oldest and original subgenre of MMO?

Well, here is one quote from an interview with Matt Firor, "In an interview with the TheGamer, ZeniMax Online Studios director Matt Firor examined the game’s journey since launch and, surprisingly, took a moment to clarify that he does not believe the popular, online-only title is really a massively multiplayer online game. “I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO,” Firor states after having been asked which MMO, outside of Elder Scrolls Online, he most enjoyed."

SithisKhajitiiLamae

Are you guys all pc players? Im only asking because I have played on consoles exclusively and I have never heard any of these complaints in game or in my guild Discord servers.

Braffin

ADarklore wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I doubt ANY game developer on this planet would say such nonsense.

Maybe try to google the terms you just used.

It's a misrepresented quote. I saw that stream too.

Do you have a link for me, where a zos representative isn't aware of the fact that MMORPG is the oldest and original subgenre of MMO?

Well, here is one quote from an interview with Matt Firor, "In an interview with the TheGamer, ZeniMax Online Studios director Matt Firor examined the game’s journey since launch and, surprisingly, took a moment to clarify that he does not believe the popular, online-only title is really a massively multiplayer online game. “I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO,” Firor states after having been asked which MMO, outside of Elder Scrolls Online, he most enjoyed."

You refer to this statement here?

MF: I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO, in the traditional “MMORPG” sense of the word, because that term is freighted with a lot of definitions that don’t apply to ESO (tab targeting, mouse movement, PC-only, super hardcore, etc.). At this point, so many game types have underlying “massively multiplayer” technology that MMO is becoming even more dated as a term. I’ve long been a fan of online games – I’ve been in the game industry since the late 1980s and I’ve never shipped a single-player game – all of them have been multiplayer. As such, I love all types of online gaming interaction: Fifa, World of Warcraft, the last-man-standing shooters, etc. My first big MMORPG as a gamer was Everquest, although I dabbled a bit in Ultima Online before that.

Source: https://www.thegamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview/

This Interview is quite outdated though, as they explicitely name the update cadence of content as unique selling point. You shouldn't have missed it either, that exactly this has been canceled with 2023.

Framing also needs to be learned

wilykcat

Has the community become toxic? My response is yes. In the game it has.

In veteran dungeons I've seen players quit the dungeon after dying or making a small mistake once especially dps and tanks. This type of behavior ruins he fun of the game for me and the 2 others who are in the group. I thought this was an endgame problem only in world of warcraft but apparently not.

Also I have to turn off zone chat a lot because much of it makes me feel uncomfortable especially when players ask personal questions about controversial or sensitive topics. I came here to play the game and escape reality(real life) not to discuss and relive it. The ingame chat needs more strict moderation and enforced rules.

I'm glad the forums aren't toxic though, thank you moderators.

Braffin

SithisKhajitiiLamae wrote: »

Are you guys all pc players? Im only asking because I have played on consoles exclusively and I have never heard any of these complaints in game or in my guild Discord servers.

No worries, it's luckily mostly a forums discussion.

ADarklore

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I doubt ANY game developer on this planet would say such nonsense.

Maybe try to google the terms you just used.

It's a misrepresented quote. I saw that stream too.

Do you have a link for me, where a zos representative isn't aware of the fact that MMORPG is the oldest and original subgenre of MMO?

Well, here is one quote from an interview with Matt Firor, "In an interview with the TheGamer, ZeniMax Online Studios director Matt Firor examined the game’s journey since launch and, surprisingly, took a moment to clarify that he does not believe the popular, online-only title is really a massively multiplayer online game. “I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO,” Firor states after having been asked which MMO, outside of Elder Scrolls Online, he most enjoyed."

You refer to this statement here?

MF: I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO, in the traditional “MMORPG” sense of the word, because that term is freighted with a lot of definitions that don’t apply to ESO (tab targeting, mouse movement, PC-only, super hardcore, etc.). At this point, so many game types have underlying “massively multiplayer” technology that MMO is becoming even more dated as a term. I’ve long been a fan of online games – I’ve been in the game industry since the late 1980s and I’ve never shipped a single-player game – all of them have been multiplayer. As such, I love all types of online gaming interaction: Fifa, World of Warcraft, the last-man-standing shooters, etc. My first big MMORPG as a gamer was Everquest, although I dabbled a bit in Ultima Online before that.

Source: https://www.thegamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview/

This Interview is quite outdated though, as they explicitely name the update cadence of content as unique selling point. You shouldn't have missed it either, that exactly this has been canceled with 2023.

Framing also needs to be learned

Actually, I'm referring to THIS article from Screenrant.

I like how you cherry pick what you want to be true of today and what is outdated. I doubt Matt's thoughts on whether he thinks ESO is an MMO or not are outdated.

Braffin

ADarklore wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Braffin wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I doubt ANY game developer on this planet would say such nonsense.

Maybe try to google the terms you just used.

It's a misrepresented quote. I saw that stream too.

Do you have a link for me, where a zos representative isn't aware of the fact that MMORPG is the oldest and original subgenre of MMO?

Well, here is one quote from an interview with Matt Firor, "In an interview with the TheGamer, ZeniMax Online Studios director Matt Firor examined the game’s journey since launch and, surprisingly, took a moment to clarify that he does not believe the popular, online-only title is really a massively multiplayer online game. “I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO,” Firor states after having been asked which MMO, outside of Elder Scrolls Online, he most enjoyed."

You refer to this statement here?

MF: I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO, in the traditional “MMORPG” sense of the word, because that term is freighted with a lot of definitions that don’t apply to ESO (tab targeting, mouse movement, PC-only, super hardcore, etc.). At this point, so many game types have underlying “massively multiplayer” technology that MMO is becoming even more dated as a term. I’ve long been a fan of online games – I’ve been in the game industry since the late 1980s and I’ve never shipped a single-player game – all of them have been multiplayer. As such, I love all types of online gaming interaction: Fifa, World of Warcraft, the last-man-standing shooters, etc. My first big MMORPG as a gamer was Everquest, although I dabbled a bit in Ultima Online before that.

Source: https://www.thegamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-interview/

This Interview is quite outdated though, as they explicitely name the update cadence of content as unique selling point. You shouldn't have missed it either, that exactly this has been canceled with 2023.

Framing also needs to be learned

Actually, I'm referring to THIS article from Screenrant.

I like how you cherry pick what you want to be true of today and what is outdated. I doubt Matt's thoughts on whether he thinks ESO is an MMO or not are outdated.

That's nothing more than a summary from the original interview I linked. But well, if you prefer the shorter version, I don't mind.

I have no doubt, that his opinion that ESO never was "an MMO, in the traditional “MMORPG” sense of the word" didn't change.

It's nonetheless exactly contrary to your words:

ADarklore wrote: »

They also do not consider ESO to be a traditional MMO, but an "MMORPG"... focusing more on quest content and casual gaming.

I won't speculate if you did this by accident or on purpose. I'm fine with pointing out the contradiction.

And maybe try to read the interview, it's quite interesting.

endgamesmug

Once in awhile i run into a decent player or someone who might see value in what i have to say in the way of guidance, but most of the time its argh theres no healer/tank! 😆 So yeah difficulty or the whole shock and horror of dying because you made a mistake, like this is how you learn and get better....progression y'know? Try something hard you might surprise yourself

KlauthWarthog

Snamyap wrote: »

Yeah, ZOS put up a sticky where we can rehash the same arguments till doomsday comes. Which they can conveniently ignore, give no feedback whatsoever.

So, the entirety of the PTS forums, then.

Elsonso

ADarklore wrote: »

Well, here is one quote from an interview with Matt Firor, "In an interview with the TheGamer, ZeniMax Online Studios director Matt Firor examined the game’s journey since launch and, surprisingly, took a moment to clarify that he does not believe the popular, online-only title is really a massively multiplayer online game. “I don’t really consider ESO to be an MMO,” Firor states after having been asked which MMO, outside of Elder Scrolls Online, he most enjoyed."

Yup. As I recall, the general background situation at that time in the community was that ESO was not doing all the things that a proper MMO should be doing.

As for tense... yes. Not the first time. Subjective on my part, but not even the worst time.

BlueRaven

You have to keep in mind Zos just nerfed casual players dps (via oaken-soul & ha builds), while at the same time stripped them of content (via world events/bastion nymics), announced no additional questing content for a year, while also taking away an avenue for improving their gear outside of doing dungeons (heavily nerfing transmute currency drops in Tot).

And this happened all in one patch.

So yeah, there is going to be complaints.

Meanwhile players who just got more exclusive content for themselves will cheer the changes. And apparently not really care if others are upset about it.

So yeah, there is going to be conflict.

colossalvoids

wilykcat wrote: »

In veteran dungeons I've seen players quit the dungeon after dying or making a small mistake once especially dps and tanks.

Can't call it toxic but selfish more of, this thing kinda surprises me still as when I've joined the game it was more common sitting for hours on one boss with pick up group and try again and again, talking back and forth more like progression groups do nowadays. Guess game dynamics have changed, not only in this game though.

People always seeking easier and faster time for bigger rewards, instead of enjoying the content or challenge presented.