Competitive Players: The Most Mistreated ESO Demographic

Stamicka

As the reasoning behind recent update 35 changes have been revealed, one thing is made clear: ZOS wants to make Veteran content more accessible to a wider variety of players. Ironically, 90% of ESO is basically inaccessible to competitive/ endgame players. Allow me to explain from the perspective of a competitive player.

First, I define a competitive/ endgame player as someone who likes to compete, either with themselves, or other players. Any player that seeks to optimize, to achieve, and that will improve their skills to accomplish their goals would fall under this umbrella. I use this term to include both PvPers and endgame PvErs. This demographic has been mistreated both by the devs and by the overall community. Let's explore some of the ways this is true.

The Majority of the Game is Inaccessible To Many Competitive Players
Ironically, it is the competitive players that the game is most inaccessible for. It is not common to see an endgame raider or competitive PvPer that frequently quests/fishes/explores/or engages in overland in any other way. Why? Because the difficulty of overland is so easy that the combat requires no effort and offers no threat of dying. Most normal content and overland simply isn't stimulating enough for competitive players to engage with it. It is so boring that to me that I genuinely consider it unplayable. However, this is the majority of the content within ESO and within each released chapter. Competitive players often buy entire chapters just to access the trial, or to get a new Mythic Item. These purchases hardly justify the price tag because the new zone itself will likely go unexplored/ uncompleted by them. Yet, the endgame players often buy the whole chapters anyway. The "exclusive" Veteran content is genuinely ALL that many of them have in ESO. Making this content easier will eventually make it basically inaccessible to the players that crave challenge. So maybe hard content is a bit exclusive, but casual players have THE REST OF THE ENTIRE GAME to play if they choose not to engage in hard content.

Competitive Players are Unjustifiably Demonized
Some people are just naturally competitive. If they do something, they like to optimize, they like to win, they like to be successful. Nothing is wrong with this, it is just a different way of playing the game. However, this doesn't stop competitive players from being labeled as "toxic meta chasers", "jerks", "exploiters", "elitists", and the list goes on and on. Many people automatically label competitive players as toxic, even though there's nothing innately toxic about being competitive. While it is true that some end game players are rude and toxic, it cannot be automatically assumed just because someone likes to optimize. Many competitive/ end game players will happily and kindly teach others how to play the game if asked. I can't tell you how many times I'm accused of "taking the game too seriously", "needing a life", and "needing to touch grass", just for doing well in a battleground or a dungeon. I have a life, I just like to play the game well (and as optimized as possible) when I do play. Outside of mistreatment by the overall community, the devs often use words with negative connotations to describe end game players. For example, end game players as stated by a dev, "manipulate" light attack weaving in order to succeed. This is an odd word choice which has negative undertones. Additionally, the devs do everything they can to take away from end game players, which leads me to my final point.

Competitive Players Lose Features, but Rarely Gain Them
Both PvPers and PvErs have been losing more features than they gain for several years now. If a competitive/ endgame players starts to utilize something ZOS adds to the game, it is swiftly taken away. Additionally, these types of players are backed into very small parts of the game that rarely see new features. Let's talk about what some individual groups have lost/ never gained.

The Competitive PvPers
As a group, the competitive PvPers have been thrown into the smallest corner of the game. They haven't seen new content in years, they're subjected to broken balance decisions, and on most servers, they don't even have a playable PvP environment. Cyrodiil has been unplayable while populated for many years. Players who like to do Battlegrounds, well they never got a proper leaderboard, they barely get rewards, they can't even choose their own game mode, and if they're especially competitive: they get insanely long queue times. This post would be far too long if I went on about all the ways that the PvPers are mistreated, but it is hard to deny that this is the case.

The Competitive PvErs
The competitive PVErs no longer see as many rewards for their hard earned achievements. The prestige behind many difficult to achieve PvE achievements has also been vastly reduced by content nerfs, or power creep. If Update 35 goes live, they will have lost their ability to beat their personal best scores because damage has been reduced.

Both PvPers and PvErs
Both groups have lost the ability to express their learned mastery over the games mechanics. This can be seen with many of the changes over recent years. Remember when bash weaving added small amounts of DPS (2k+)? Taken away. Remember when you could block and animation cancel ultimates? Taken away. Skills that stun and do damage? Taken away. Light attack weaving? Not taken away but heavily nerfed. Vampire toggle? Taken away. There is a definite pattern here. If competitive players start to utilize something or master a new aspect of the game, ZOS will quickly try to remove it.

Conclusion
The devs and the community should stop mistreating those who prefer to try hard and optimize. After all, we're just playing how we want, that's the point of the game right?

Pevey

I do think the obsession the devs have with what the "tippity-top" (their words) are capable of is really unhealthy for the game.

Here is an interesting quote from an article I just read. It's from a WoW dev talking about the upcoming expansion.

Hazzikostas and the WoW team liken the problem to the existence of two separate games: the one they're making, where you need to cooperate to kill raid or dungeon bosses, and the one a lot of players prioritise, which is topping the DPS meters. "We don't create that game. But many people are playing it and many people are like, that is a primary motivation almost for them. And the question is, how sensitive should we be to that? If we were making a game, and the point of the game was maximize your score, maximise this number, it would be problematic for us to introduce elements into the game that are very random or skew outcomes one way or another. But that's also not the game that we have made. We have created a cooperative game that presents these challenges to be overcome."

Very interesting take. Who cares what the tippity top do? It's more important whether the game is fun than fighting this battle against "obscene" damage numbers. The real issue is why are achievements designed around such a tiny percentage of the player base anyway? Even the most elite of the elite in ESO admit the difficulty of vets and HMs have some room to come down to be more accessible. Let the players who enjoy pushing speedruns compete on that basis. Have a better reward system that makes that engaging. It's open ended.

I also wish they would implement a story mode already so that people who are interested in that experience don't have to have their experience "ruined" by players who just want to get their transmutes so they can make the gear they want. It creates a lot of unneeded toxicity because there is a small portion of each demographic that for whatever reason thinks the other is intentionally trying to ruin their fun, when really they both just want to play the game. It's a design issue.

kargen27

"Ironically, it is the competitive players that the game is most inaccessible for. "

It is not inaccessible. You have access to it and you can complete the content. It is content you don't enjoy doing. Some players do not like PvP. Doesn't mean they don't have access to it.

"I also wish they would implement a story mode already so that people who are interested in that experience don't have to have their experience "ruined" by players who just want to get their transmutes so they can make the gear they want."

I would like a story mode also. One that allows completion of the dungeon but with no rewards or set gear drops. Just a chance to roam around and experience the story. I'm thinking the problem with providing this might have to do with how many instances it might create?

Pevey

kargen27 wrote: »

I would like a story mode also. One that allows completion of the dungeon but with no rewards or set gear drops. Just a chance to roam around and experience the story. I'm thinking the problem with providing this might have to do with how many instances it might create?

Then maybe the devs could simply tie transmutes to something other than normal random dungeons. Raiders use a crazy number of transmutes, and it creates a situation where the demographic normal dungeons are targeted toward (beginners and players who do not like to do combat) are mixed in with the high damage dealers who burn through content. The skill gap is natural, but it becomes glaring and contentious really only in normal dungeons. And that is only because of the rewards attached to them.

Stamicka

kargen27 wrote: »

"Ironically, it is the competitive players that the game is most inaccessible for. "

It is not inaccessible. You have access to it and you can complete the content. It is content you don't enjoy doing. Some players do not like PvP. Doesn't mean they don't have access to it.

"I also wish they would implement a story mode already so that people who are interested in that experience don't have to have their experience "ruined" by players who just want to get their transmutes so they can make the gear they want."

I would like a story mode also. One that allows completion of the dungeon but with no rewards or set gear drops. Just a chance to roam around and experience the story. I'm thinking the problem with providing this might have to do with how many instances it might create?

Almost like how everyone has access to Vet Content, they just need practice and perseverance to succeed. If I had some more patience, maybe I could put up with the boringness of Overland, but I don't. You don't see the dev's rushing to make overland harder though, right? Not saying they should, this is just a comparison. For me, it genuinely feels like torture to do Overland, so I just don't do it.

Pevey

This patch is not good for anyone. Zos put out a combat preview that divided the community from the start, which is partly why some people (myself included) had a knee jerk reaction to it. It turned out the knee-jerk reaction was more than justified, and the context of the stated goal of the changes didn't help people see what it really meant for them initially. That is changing now, and players all along the skill spectrum see how this is bad for them.

We were basically baited into an Us vs Them mentality by the combat preview. But it is not constructive.

ZOS identified a problem. I think they did not do good root cause analysis of that problem. And they did not propose a constructive solution. Delete your combat and start over after 8 years and just hope people go along with it if you tell them it is aimed at the elite and good for everyone else is not a constructive solution.

bmnoble

So on one hand you ignore 90% of the games content and on the other your asking where your content is? How is it the devs fault that you only enjoy supposedly 10% of the game?

"Ironically, it is the competitive players that the game is most inaccessible for. "

Inaccessible means your unable to do it, not wanting to do it is not the same thing.

If 90% of the game does not interest you maybe just maybe its time to take a break and have a look for one that aligns more with your interests.

MidniteOwl1913

My kneejerk reaction to this is "Oh good grief! Really?"

Stamicka

bmnoble wrote: »

So on one hand you ignore 90% of the games content and on the other your asking where your content is? How is it the devs fault that you only enjoy supposedly 10% of the game?

"Ironically, it is the competitive players that the game is most inaccessible for. "

Inaccessible means your unable to do it, not wanting to do it is not the same thing.

If 90% of the game does not interest you maybe just maybe its time to take a break and have a look for one that aligns more with your interests.

Hmmm, interesting. Sounds awfully familiar for some reason.

Are you assuming that people who don't engage in Vet Content are genuinely unable to ever do it? The lines here aren't as clear as you're suggesting. From a certain point of view, I am unable to do overland content. I need stimulation, it doesn't give me any, so I cannot continue with it.

Mixalis966

There is no hard content in ESO,especialy now with the damage we can deal.The hard part is finding a team capable of doing what you are after.Zos is a company like every other and it's goal is to sustain and make profit,if the people who like exploring outweigh those who like end game they will focus on the stuff that according to them brings in more money.Competitive pvp never existed in eso because of performance issues.Even though i hope eso finds success i lost faith in the devs.For me they failed to deliver many times over and the sad part is they do not tolerate criticism.I could make a whole list of things eso suffers but it will be futile because at the end of the day the state of the game doesn't matter if the money comes in.

More specific to your competitive PVE.
I tried other mmos and the quality of life i experienced was light years ahead of eso.Take lost ark for example:
1)Free instant armory tab with a push of a button available to everyone vs 5k crowns to summon an orc and talk to.
2)Dungeon party finder that speeds grouping immensely vs searching in discord in X different channel lfgs and hoping to find people availabe to SCHEDULE it for another time and no in game feature(guilds are a joke for endgame specific content).
3)Pets collecting loot relieving you of being a ragpicker vs pets that are purely cosmetic(some buff inventory slots).
4)In game calendar vs nothing.You have to keep track of every trial you joined in any of those discord servers on your own.
5)Every class feels unique vs everyone wearing same gear and dual wield/2h bis for everyone.

Endgame pve is a chore and inefficient.I desire to play ESO but i am not willing to spend my precious time lfging in discord.We all joined 10+ different discord channels in an attempt to find people easier,every channel has its own ranking system planning system,creating unneeded confusion.The devs disregarded many fundamental features in my opinion.I say all this to give the devs food for thought and i wish them to find a solution to all these problems and prosper even though i doubt anyone will read this and give a damn.

Freelancer_ESO

The problem is the way you want to play has a tendency to ruin the game for yourself, ruin the game for others, or ineffectively expend resources in any game that is not primarily competitive.

rpa

Challenge is necessary but most find challenge fun in small portions. If one balances a game for hardcore players it will fail because most players are not hardcore and most hardcore players do not enjoy every mundane task being a challenge to overcome. Number of people who actually have fun crawlling through their game over broken glass with hot rocks falling over while battling every mudcrab in demanding fight is very small. Number who claim enjoying that kind is likely much larger.
I myself am casual player but I participated in clear of every raid except Prime Hardmentors in Wildstar. In that game raids were all about mechanics, gearing was relatively simple and balanced, every class brought something required in raid and while there was dps checks, just blasting through was not an option. Too bad devs made the mistake making the overland challenging at launch. And management for forcing a launch few years early. It was an excellent game when fixed but driving out the casual masses and premature release doomed it from start.

Mr_Stach

I kid I kid

I wish everyone could have fun, let the ridiculous tippy tippy people explode Trials. Them doing that does not hurt the people fishing or doing delves.

I really wish Zos could just seperate PvE and PvP balance completely. That would fix so many issues. There would be less infighting as well...... maybe.

FeedbackOnly

It's time for other people to enjoy endgame content. It's has been inaccessible for the majority.

Kisakee

As a competitive PvE player the achievements alone are my reward, everything else is bonus. I don't care for PvP at all and wouldn't even mind getting rid of it completely if it would help to balance PvE.

Muizer

I used to play snooker and pool. It is objectively much harder to pot a ball in snooker than in pool. For beginners, snooker is much more frustrating than pool. And yet, both can be extremely competitive sports at the highest level. The potential for competition is not impacted by entry level difficulty.

LashanW

kargen27 wrote: »

"Ironically, it is the competitive players that the game is most inaccessible for. "

It is not inaccessible. You have access to it and you can complete the content. It is content you don't enjoy doing. Some players do not like PvP. Doesn't mean they don't have access to it.

Mhmm. Even very hard trifecta achievements like Godslayer is accessible to all players. Either you get good and practice with a team and get it, or you farm gold and buy a carry run. Any player can do it.

LordDragonMara

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's time for other people to enjoy endgame content. It's has been inaccessible for the majority.

It was accessible to you, but you didn't want to put the work to get there. It's still going to be inaccessible for you, and we can on bet on that.
Also making the vets players mad with this changes, a lot of them will quit, and a lot of others won't be happy with the casuals, good luck getting into some of their group.

BlueRaven

LordDragonMara wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's time for other people to enjoy endgame content. It's has been inaccessible for the majority.

It was accessible to you, but you didn't want to put the work to get there. It's still going to be inaccessible for you, and we can on bet on that.
Also making the vets players mad with this changes, a lot of them will quit, and a lot of others won't be happy with the casuals, good luck getting into some of their group.

If a lot of them quit, will zos finally stop wasting money on producing two dungeon dlcs a year? Seems like a win to me.

pklemming

BlueRaven wrote: »

LordDragonMara wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's time for other people to enjoy endgame content. It's has been inaccessible for the majority.

It was accessible to you, but you didn't want to put the work to get there. It's still going to be inaccessible for you, and we can on bet on that.
Also making the vets players mad with this changes, a lot of them will quit, and a lot of others won't be happy with the casuals, good luck getting into some of their group.

If a lot of them quit, will zos finally stop wasting money on producing two dungeon dlcs a year? Seems like a win to me.

Not exactly a helpful quote. Not a fan of grouping with others in a MMO? Not learned your class enough to complete these on normal?

It is definitely not an accessibility issue, as I have ran through these with guild members, some of which have disabilities and/or age issues. I am both old and disabled and have completed every vet HM in the game. Took me longer than a lot of people to get to that level, but I put the time in.

Yeah, CA HM took a bit

BlueRaven

pklemming wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

LordDragonMara wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's time for other people to enjoy endgame content. It's has been inaccessible for the majority.

It was accessible to you, but you didn't want to put the work to get there. It's still going to be inaccessible for you, and we can on bet on that.
Also making the vets players mad with this changes, a lot of them will quit, and a lot of others won't be happy with the casuals, good luck getting into some of their group.

If a lot of them quit, will zos finally stop wasting money on producing two dungeon dlcs a year? Seems like a win to me.

Not exactly a helpful quote. Not a fan of grouping with others in a MMO? Not learned your class enough to complete these on normal?

It is definitely not an accessibility issue, as I have ran through these with guild members, some of which have disabilities and/or age issues. I am both old and disabled and have completed every vet HM in the game. Took me longer than a lot of people to get to that level, but I put the time in.

Yeah, CA HM took a bit

Oh wow you got me there. You know me so well! Nice!

Riptide

*chuckle, are those normal achievements or vet, I don’t pay much attention to them.

Anyway, there is no sense in me wading into a mudslinging, but I’ll say this - overland being so easy that it must be endured to go through is because this was not what we bought and paid for.

In the alpha, beta, and first years we put early money and time into the game and it was made into a farce, particularly with companions.

Now if you want challenging content you have to artificially weaken yourself, live in exactly two solo arenas, or do group content.

Rather than them adding an optional vet overland mode which would deliver on the service we tested and invested in, it is left to languish and card games are built.

Whats more is, for those that do not care for the mechanics and difficulty of vet DLC dungeons and so on have all that challenge channeled there, and feel like content is out of reach to them. I’m not really sure why, normal mode exists, but that is the sentiment I see.

And at the core of if, after pages and pages of back and forth the sentiment you always get to from folks who seem to carry some unhealthy dislike of endgame players is “lump it”. And big shrug to that.

BlueRaven

Riptide wrote: »

*chuckle, are those normal achievements or vet, I don’t pay much attention to them.

A mix of both.

And I like overland just the way it is, thank you.

I am friends with people who (for example) only roll magika wood elves. Same type of character, over and over again across two accounts! They are master crafters not to make gear for them selves, but to decorate houses. They would not dream of stepping foot in a normal dungeon even with people capable of soloing it.

I find this type of person more the “norm” then people farming dungeon sets.

I used to be a part of a regular trial group but it fell apart a year or two back when they nerfed tank (and healer I think?) damage and a bunch of regulars who liked overland questing as well quit because dailies took too long.

I get called on by an old friend to fill in every once in awhile with a group in a guild I am not affiliated with. The latest was to teach some newer people the twins fight on vMoL. It was a painful long experience and we never downed it to fight the easier final boss beyond. “How do I know if have light or dark? I tried rezzing someone and blew up the group.” There is so many mechanics in that fight for new people it gets overwhelming. Honestly I can see why he needed people outside of his guild to help.

I will help them again if they ask, but honestly I don’t miss it. I like the relaxed overland much more. I like experimenting with new characters and bad overland sets. Letting what drops dictate what I put on my bars. I do quests all the time to see if the characters react differently to different character types. That to me is interesting and rewarding.

If you were to give me a choice I would gladly sacrifice a new trial for more overland questing content.

BlueRaven

I should also add I suffer from group anxiety, so I rarely pug. All I really need is at least one person in the group who I am friends with to reassure me that I am doing fine and I am ok. I hate feeling I am the weak link in a group even though it appears I rarely am. But I can’t shake the feeling that I am holding the group back, this gets really bad with strangers.

Recently the oaken ring gave me the courage to try the group finder on my own, but now that it is getting nerfed (along with everything else it seems) I will happily just stick to overland questing.

Vaoh

Idk how it is for games like Destiny 2 or WoW, but in ESO the community has become very hostile between “subgroups” of the community so to speak. Casual Questers, PvPers, Endgame PvErs, the Top 1%, are the main subgroups.

Things didn’t used to be this way. It took many years of horrible combat/content balance direction and lots of hostility toward every player who isn’t a casual PvE quester.

Is what it is though 🤷‍♂️

Dragonlord573

Stamicka wrote: »

The Competitive PvErs
The competitive PVErs no longer see as many rewards for their hard earned achievements.

I made a post a bit ago mentioning this. We haven't gotten a skin since The Cauldron dropped. Trial players just get crummy body markings along with a reskinned mount. Us dungeon players get nothing now apart from some boring text beside our names, momentos that are lack luster, and again more boring body markings (I'd feel differently about the markings if I didn't play black Argonians, which you can almost never see body markings on cause 80% of them are black.)

Last night I got Worm Wizard and it feels amazing to have gotten one of my end goals I've had for the last year. ZOS, where are my earnable skins and personalities? The boring titles don't give me incentive to play your dungeons on vet.

Arunei

Riptide wrote: »

*chuckle, are those normal achievements or vet, I don’t pay much attention to them.

Anyway, there is no sense in me wading into a mudslinging, but I’ll say this - overland being so easy that it must be endured to go through is because this was not what we bought and paid for.

In the alpha, beta, and first years we put early money and time into the game and it was made into a farce, particularly with companions.

Now if you want challenging content you have to artificially weaken yourself, live in exactly two solo arenas, or do group content.

Rather than them adding an optional vet overland mode which would deliver on the service we tested and invested in, it is left to languish and card games are built.

Whats more is, for those that do not care for the mechanics and difficulty of vet DLC dungeons and so on have all that challenge channeled there, and feel like content is out of reach to them. I’m not really sure why, normal mode exists, but that is the sentiment I see.

And at the core of if, after pages and pages of back and forth the sentiment you always get to from folks who seem to carry some unhealthy dislike of endgame players is “lump it”. And big shrug to that.

Not what you bought and paid for? Funny, a lot of people who can't do harder content also probably want to be able to clear everything in a game they also bought and paid for. Or is your money somehow worth more?

People seem to think that someone who paid for the game doesn't have the right to all the content in that game. I personally find that mindset selfish. If someone wants to be able to get the Skin or a Personality from a Vet HM Dungeon, they 100% have the right to that item because they bought the game. Sure, make it something people might need to work for, but at the end of the day this is a game. Why do people honestly think there should be any content in this game that is out of reach to anyone?

And please don't give me the same tired "everyone can do it with enough practice and if you can't it's just because you're lazy" excuse. There are any number of reasons legitimately keeping people from being able to do content that requires 80k+ DPS, and dismissing all of them as laziness is shallow-minded and rude.

This game shouldn't cater to the top 1% who can melt everything in 2 seconds. If people want a game that provides a hardcore challenge there are plenty of other games that offer them. It's not a bad thing for ZOS to want to make it so more people can access more of the game they paid for. Now if they could just do it in a way that doesn't screw over the ones they claim to want to lift up, that'd be great.

Edit to add that you're either overlooking or purposefully forgetting that a lot of rewards come from Vet and HM Dungeons/Trials, like Dyes and other Collectibles you can't get on Normal. Yet you can't see why people would want to do those Dungeons/Trials?

Kiralyn2000

It is not common to see an endgame raider or competitive PvPer that frequently quests/fishes/explores/or engages in overland in any other way. Why? Because the difficulty of overland is so easy that the combat requires no effort and offers no threat of dying.

Two thoughts - why does fishing & wandering the overland need that level of threat for Top Players? (well, or anyone, for fishing/harvesting/etc)?

And... can someone name me a Big MMO, where fishing, daily-questing, and overlanding does provide any "threat" to endgame raiders & top PvPers?

Outside of someone wandering into the hidden corner where they stuck the Open World 40-man Raid Boss, I can't recall any raid geared player in WoW being even mildly inconvenienced by overland activities. They still did them, though (it was always "fun", trying to do your rep daily, and some dude with flaming shoulderpads would just plow through the area and kill everything before you could even tag it.)

EdmondDontes

Mixalis966 wrote: »

There is no hard content in ESO,especialy now with the damage we can deal.The hard part is finding a team capable of doing what you are after.Zos is a company like every other and it's goal is to sustain and make profit,if the people who like exploring outweigh those who like end game they will focus on the stuff that according to them brings in more money.Competitive pvp never existed in eso because of performance issues.Even though i hope eso finds success i lost faith in the devs.For me they failed to deliver many times over and the sad part is they do not tolerate criticism.I could make a whole list of things eso suffers but it will be futile because at the end of the day the state of the game doesn't matter if the money comes in.

More specific to your competitive PVE.
I tried other mmos and the quality of life i experienced was light years ahead of eso.Take lost ark for example:
1)Free instant armory tab with a push of a button available to everyone vs 5k crowns to summon an orc and talk to.
2)Dungeon party finder that speeds grouping immensely vs searching in discord in X different channel lfgs and hoping to find people availabe to SCHEDULE it for another time and no in game feature(guilds are a joke for endgame specific content).
3)Pets collecting loot relieving you of being a ragpicker vs pets that are purely cosmetic(some buff inventory slots).
4)In game calendar vs nothing.You have to keep track of every trial you joined in any of those discord servers on your own.
5)Every class feels unique vs everyone wearing same gear and dual wield/2h bis for everyone.

Endgame pve is a chore and inefficient.I desire to play ESO but i am not willing to spend my precious time lfging in discord.We all joined 10+ different discord channels in an attempt to find people easier,every channel has its own ranking system planning system,creating unneeded confusion.The devs disregarded many fundamental features in my opinion.I say all this to give the devs food for thought and i wish them to find a solution to all these problems and prosper even though i doubt anyone will read this and give a damn.

I vehemently disagree with your claim that competitive PvP has never existed in this game. There was a couple years there where PvP was absolutely fantastic. It was years 2-4 or so and maybe even a little bit more than that. But it has gone downhill VERY dramatically with the insane low pop caps and sets like Dark Convergence and Oakensoul. PvP is definitely the last thing on the minds of anyone at ZOS other than to deliberately let cyrodiil sink into the ocean and be gone forever seems to be the direction ZOS is heading with PvP now days.

EdmondDontes

Arunei wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

*chuckle, are those normal achievements or vet, I don’t pay much attention to them.

Anyway, there is no sense in me wading into a mudslinging, but I’ll say this - overland being so easy that it must be endured to go through is because this was not what we bought and paid for.

In the alpha, beta, and first years we put early money and time into the game and it was made into a farce, particularly with companions.

Now if you want challenging content you have to artificially weaken yourself, live in exactly two solo arenas, or do group content.

Rather than them adding an optional vet overland mode which would deliver on the service we tested and invested in, it is left to languish and card games are built.

Whats more is, for those that do not care for the mechanics and difficulty of vet DLC dungeons and so on have all that challenge channeled there, and feel like content is out of reach to them. I’m not really sure why, normal mode exists, but that is the sentiment I see.

And at the core of if, after pages and pages of back and forth the sentiment you always get to from folks who seem to carry some unhealthy dislike of endgame players is “lump it”. And big shrug to that.

Not what you bought and paid for? Funny, a lot of people who can't do harder content also probably want to be able to clear everything in a game they also bought and paid for. Or is your money somehow worth more?

People seem to think that someone who paid for the game doesn't have the right to all the content in that game. I personally find that mindset selfish. If someone wants to be able to get the Skin or a Personality from a Vet HM Dungeon, they 100% have the right to that item because they bought the game. Sure, make it something people might need to work for, but at the end of the day this is a game. Why do people honestly think there should be any content in this game that is out of reach to anyone?

And please don't give me the same tired "everyone can do it with enough practice and if you can't it's just because you're lazy" excuse. There are any number of reasons legitimately keeping people from being able to do content that requires 80k+ DPS, and dismissing all of them as laziness is shallow-minded and rude.

This game shouldn't cater to the top 1% who can melt everything in 2 seconds. If people want a game that provides a hardcore challenge there are plenty of other games that offer them. It's not a bad thing for ZOS to want to make it so more people can access more of the game they paid for. Now if they could just do it in a way that doesn't screw over the ones they claim to want to lift up, that'd be great.

Edit to add that you're either overlooking or purposefully forgetting that a lot of rewards come from Vet and HM Dungeons/Trials, like Dyes and other Collectibles you can't get on Normal. Yet you can't see why people would want to do those Dungeons/Trials?

Catering to the casual questers and those more interested in housing than playing the game is slowly gutting ESO. And it's destroying what used to be the best PvP in the gaming industry.

Arunei

EdmondDontes wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

*chuckle, are those normal achievements or vet, I don’t pay much attention to them.

Anyway, there is no sense in me wading into a mudslinging, but I’ll say this - overland being so easy that it must be endured to go through is because this was not what we bought and paid for.

In the alpha, beta, and first years we put early money and time into the game and it was made into a farce, particularly with companions.

Now if you want challenging content you have to artificially weaken yourself, live in exactly two solo arenas, or do group content.

Rather than them adding an optional vet overland mode which would deliver on the service we tested and invested in, it is left to languish and card games are built.

Whats more is, for those that do not care for the mechanics and difficulty of vet DLC dungeons and so on have all that challenge channeled there, and feel like content is out of reach to them. I’m not really sure why, normal mode exists, but that is the sentiment I see.

And at the core of if, after pages and pages of back and forth the sentiment you always get to from folks who seem to carry some unhealthy dislike of endgame players is “lump it”. And big shrug to that.

Not what you bought and paid for? Funny, a lot of people who can't do harder content also probably want to be able to clear everything in a game they also bought and paid for. Or is your money somehow worth more?

People seem to think that someone who paid for the game doesn't have the right to all the content in that game. I personally find that mindset selfish. If someone wants to be able to get the Skin or a Personality from a Vet HM Dungeon, they 100% have the right to that item because they bought the game. Sure, make it something people might need to work for, but at the end of the day this is a game. Why do people honestly think there should be any content in this game that is out of reach to anyone?

And please don't give me the same tired "everyone can do it with enough practice and if you can't it's just because you're lazy" excuse. There are any number of reasons legitimately keeping people from being able to do content that requires 80k+ DPS, and dismissing all of them as laziness is shallow-minded and rude.

This game shouldn't cater to the top 1% who can melt everything in 2 seconds. If people want a game that provides a hardcore challenge there are plenty of other games that offer them. It's not a bad thing for ZOS to want to make it so more people can access more of the game they paid for. Now if they could just do it in a way that doesn't screw over the ones they claim to want to lift up, that'd be great.

Edit to add that you're either overlooking or purposefully forgetting that a lot of rewards come from Vet and HM Dungeons/Trials, like Dyes and other Collectibles you can't get on Normal. Yet you can't see why people would want to do those Dungeons/Trials?

Catering to the casual questers and those more interested in housing than playing the game is slowly gutting ESO. And it's destroying what used to be the best PvP in the gaming industry.

So making the game more accessible to a wider audience is gutting the game? Why? This again just sounds like a selfish sentiment. It reads as "I don't want people to be able to have fun because they aren't a top player". It also places blame for things on the majority of players who have no control over what ZOS does or doesn't do. Just because someone is a casual doesn't mean they have any less right to the game.

As much as I think PvP should get more content, you have to realize that PvP is a minority. And making the game more accessible to more players isn't getting PvP. ZOS refusing to balance PvE and PvE separately is doing they, as well as not adding more options and modes and not fixing long-standing issues like low-pop bonus not working like it's supposed to.

Also housing and causal questing ARE gameplay. Combat isn't "actual gameplay" any more than any other activity in the game is. Fishing is gameplay, Tribute is gameplay, decorating is gameplay.

And finally, you do realize how expensive it is to actually be interested in Housing? Anyone actually interested in Housing needs to have a way of making a lot of gold, so they aren't as "casual" as people seem to think. Mats, Blueprints/Furnishings, and especially the Houses themselves require a regular and large amount of gold.