The problem with addons and their mandatory use

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  • kringled_1
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    Leads will know if you're using Hodor, assuming that they are asking for it for the ultimate sharing. Based on the listing of Untaunted, OP is probably tanking, so...tank ults (Horn/Colossus) tend to be ones that leads want shared. The rest, they can't tell if OP is performing mechanics correctly. And if they're not, especially if its multiple times in ways that the addons help minimize...that's why groups ask for them.
  • Amottica
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    kringled_1 wrote: »
    Leads will know if you're using Hodor, assuming that they are asking for it for the ultimate sharing. Based on the listing of Untaunted, OP is probably tanking, so...tank ults (Horn/Colossus) tend to be ones that leads want shared. The rest, they can't tell if OP is performing mechanics correctly. And if they're not, especially if its multiple times in ways that the addons help minimize...that's why groups ask for them.

    True, Forgot about ult sharing.
  • Braffin
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    maxetro wrote: »

    Really? How am I dictating the rules? I don`t need this addons, I'm perfectly fine without them. But many, many guilds is forcing people to install them, because they think we are too stupid to do content without it? I don't see any other reason.

    Look, that's exactly the problematic attitude I'm talking about. If a raiding team agreed on using certain tools for coordination of ultimates and you refuse to participate in this agreement, they do nothing wrong to refuse you. Nobody is forcing you into anything, you're simply told that you don't fulfill the requirements for this group's playstyle.

    Btw: If you're refusing to use addons in general, how do you share your dps to your teammates? How do you check your buff uptimes? Or is anything of that out of the question too?
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • maxetro
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    Amottica wrote: »
    So no, they cannot force running these five add-ons you listed earlier. Ofc, they can, and likely would remove someone from the group if they keep messing up. Messing up, not following mechanics, doing DPS below the group's requirements, and even not using the gear required to provide buffs the raid wants from a player are the reasons for kicking a player.

    I usually ask when necessary addons is listed in discord or in guild rules. Sometimes people is fine with me not have it, and we do trial without any problems. Sometimes they don`t.
    And sometimes I don`t ask. I actually joined one guild on the last week, already did few vDSR and vRG runs with them. They don`t know that I don`t use any "necessary" addons.
  • sarahthes
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    maxetro wrote: »

    I usually ask when necessary addons is listed in discord or in guild rules. Sometimes people is fine with me not have it, and we do trial without any problems. Sometimes they don`t.
    And sometimes I don`t ask. I actually joined one guild on the last week, already did few vDSR and vRG runs with them. They don`t know that I don`t use any "necessary" addons.

    I think you would be much happier playing on console.
  • maxetro
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    Braffin wrote: »
    Btw: If you're refusing to use addons in general, how do you share your dps to your teammates? How do you check your buff uptimes? Or is anything of that out of the question too?

    Never said that I don`t use addons at all. I have cmx, awesome guild store and map pins. And you don`t need addons to see buff cd`s, it`s all in vanilla.
  • Braffin
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    maxetro wrote: »

    Never said that I don`t use addons at all. I have cmx, awesome guild store and map pins. And you don`t need addons to see buff cd`s, it`s all in vanilla.

    I misunderstood you then. If you're specifically regarding to addons which shall ensure you're not "standing in stupid", like raid-notifier does, you may just have been very unlucky with the groups you applied to. As long as you're able to follow mechanics, you'll be fine.

    Most of the groups I know also only recommend this addons and don't set a hard requirement to use them (as was said several times). Thing is, if you pull off a discussion like you did here with your thread, while calling these tools "crapware", most raidleads will become suspicious about this behaviour.

    PS: There is a difference between buff uptime and buff cd. But you know that anyways, as you use cmx.
    Edited by Braffin on June 20, 2023 11:04PM
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • Amottica
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    maxetro wrote: »

    I usually ask when necessary addons is listed in discord or in guild rules. Sometimes people is fine with me not have it, and we do trial without any problems. Sometimes they don`t.
    And sometimes I don`t ask. I actually joined one guild on the last week, already did few vDSR and vRG runs with them. They don`t know that I don`t use any "necessary" addons.

    Guilds customarily state what addons they recommend because they are extremely helpful. Outside of addons that actually share information, which is for ult sharing, they have no idea what addons a player is using. I have never been in a raid or raid guild that required any addon behind ult sharing I am certain we can chalk this up to a miscommunication.

    So it does seem this can be chalked up to a misinterpretation which is understandable.

  • Zastrix
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    Console does have voice chat baked in. A lot of people on PC don't want to join on voice chat additionally so addons are requirements for that.

    In dungeons the only real addons I use is Bandit's Gear Manager which is a QoL change, sure i can take 1 min to change sets but why not do it in a second or two, other addons are just UI changes and have nothing to do with mechanics.

    AddOns in VetHM trials make life easier (I have ADHD so subtle stuff is quite hard for me to notice if I'm hyperfocusing on other mechanics). Let's say vCR+3 I can see lightning sure but it's hard for me to notice that I have ice coming on me until it's too late so I can't strategically drop it down.

    110-114k Stage 4 Vamprie Magblade u39
    Aldmeri Dominion did nothing wrong in Shadowfen.
  • disintegr8
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    Glad I'm not on PC. [snip]

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by zos_Izaren on June 21, 2023 8:34AM
    Australian on PS4 NA server.
    Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
  • Zastrix
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    disintegr8 wrote: »
    Glad I'm not on PC. [snip]

    I do take prog groups seriously ofc but for pugs I just want to get it done and not waste 2 and still not manage to wipe because I took 0.5s longer to interrupt the miniboss in vSS portals.

    [edited for baiting]
    Edited by zos_Izaren on June 21, 2023 8:34AM
    110-114k Stage 4 Vamprie Magblade u39
    Aldmeri Dominion did nothing wrong in Shadowfen.
  • KS_Amt38
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    The best comment was to make your own guild and your own rules. Noone is forcing me to use all these addons, as this is my own decision.

    I would also choose not to join a guild or any group, which is not using addons as this is a tool to maximize the griup performance.

    Feel free to create your own group and find people with the same mindset.

    I dont judge your mindset and your feelings about addons and I hope you dont judge mine.
  • LittlePinkDot
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    Sounds like there's alot of elitist snobbery in PC trial guilds. Glad to know I'm not missing anything.
    Edited by LittlePinkDot on June 20, 2023 11:35PM
  • SerafinaWaterstar
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    Lord knows how we console players manage to play without them…….😜🙄
  • SeaGtGruff
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    maxetro wrote: »

    Really? How am I dictating the rules? I don`t need this addons, I'm perfectly fine without them. But many, many guilds is forcing people to install them, because they think we are too stupid to do content without it? I don't see any other reason.

    The reason is because they think the addons make things easier or give some other advantage, such as whatever that Hodor addon does (I have no idea). They can set requirements about what they want everybody to use, but I'm not sure if they can actually tell whether you're using those things-- at least as far as addons; something like Discord is easy to tell because you are either in the Discord with everyone else or you aren't.

    It isn't about being too stupid without addons, it's about trying to make the experience as easy and (hopefully) as quick as possible.
    I've fought mudcrabs more fearsome than me!
  • disintegr8
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    Lord knows how we console players manage to play without them…….😜🙄

    Largely we accept the game as it is and know that success isn't a sure thing. We learn the fights/mechanics and practice until we can accomplish things.

    Using addons is basically cheating in fights and we don't all feel the need to cheat to enjoy the game. I know I can ignore any brags from PC players about clearing this or that, or leaderboard high scores, etc., because it's not the players actually playing the game normally.
    Australian on PS4 NA server.
    Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
  • runa_gate
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    A guild can also demand that you dye your outfit head to toe in purple. You may or may not choose to go along with this to play with them.

  • disintegr8
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    Zastrix wrote: »

    I do take prog groups seriously ofc but for pugs I just want to get it done and not waste 2 and still not manage to wipe because I took 0.5s longer to interrupt the miniboss in vSS portals.

    Looks like you're not from Australia then, everything has a 0.5 second delay due to lag/high ping.
    Australian on PS4 NA server.
    Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
  • Amottica
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    disintegr8 wrote: »

    Largely we accept the game as it is and know that success isn't a sure thing. We learn the fights/mechanics and practice until we can accomplish things.

    Using addons is basically cheating in fights and we don't all feel the need to cheat to enjoy the game. I know I can ignore any brags from PC players about clearing this or that, or leaderboard high scores, etc., because it's not the players actually playing the game normally.

    I do have a lot of respect for console clears of our trials. Even more so before the buff/debuff tracker was added to the game.

    However, it is extremely incorrect to suggest it is cheating for a player to utilize an addon based on API data. That is data Zenimax explicitly makes available for the use in said add-ons which makes it de facto legitimate by the only authority that can label it cheating.


  • TaSheen
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    disintegr8 wrote: »

    Looks like you're not from Australia then, everything has a 0.5 second delay due to lag/high ping.

    A half second delay.... oh what I would do for that.

    My lag is 750+ ms. Mostly MORE than that. Most days, I see 999+....
    ______________________________________________________

    "But even in books, the heroes make mistakes, and there isn't always a happy ending." Mercedes Lackey, Into the West

    PC NA, PC EU (non steam)- four accounts, many alts....
  • FantasticFreddie
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    maxetro wrote: »

    Really? How am I dictating the rules? I don`t need this addons, I'm perfectly fine without them. But many, many guilds is forcing people to install them, because they think we are too stupid to do content without it? I don't see any other reason.

    The thing about group content, is it requires group effort. [Snip] even if I didn't care about addons (which, largely I don't except for supports) I'd still not bring along someone who refused to ever use them, because that's someone who has decided the abstract concept of "playing the game the way it was meant to be played" is more important than the success of the group. I don't care about half the rules I make for a raid, but they do a good job at weeding out personalities I might find tedious to play with.

    [Edited for baiting]
    Edited by ZOS_Volpe on June 21, 2023 3:50PM
  • Kram8ion
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    Mandatory?
    Aussie lag is real!
  • disintegr8
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    Amottica wrote: »

    I do have a lot of respect for console clears of our trials. Even more so before the buff/debuff tracker was added to the game.

    However, it is extremely incorrect to suggest it is cheating for a player to utilize an addon based on API data. That is data Zenimax explicitly makes available for the use in said add-ons which makes it de facto legitimate by the only authority that can label it cheating.

    More like animation canceling - they couldn't find a way to stop it, so they 'endorse' it.

    Just looking up the meaning of de facto: "in fact, whether by right or not" and "existing or holding a specified position in fact but not necessarily by legal right". Doesn't sound very legitimate to me.
    Australian on PS4 NA server.
    Everyone's entitled to an opinion.
  • Braffin
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    disintegr8 wrote: »
    More like animation canceling - they couldn't find a way to stop it, so they 'endorse' it.

    Just looking up the meaning of de facto: "in fact, whether by right or not" and "existing or holding a specified position in fact but not necessarily by legal right". Doesn't sound very legitimate to me.

    They opened the API on purpose though. At the very beginning of this game.

    And even encouraged the modding community to partake in eso.

    For your convenience I'll provide you this link, where you see the history of LUA API versions provided by zos since launch:

    https://wiki.esoui.com/APIVersion#100003
    Edited by Braffin on June 21, 2023 3:29AM
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • Amottica
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    disintegr8 wrote: »
    More like animation canceling - they couldn't find a way to stop it, so they 'endorse' it.

    Just looking up the meaning of de facto: "in fact, whether by right or not" and "existing or holding a specified position in fact but not necessarily by legal right". Doesn't sound very legitimate to me.

    My comments here are based on actual information, not an opinion of what I think happened or did not happen.

    Even more important. Below is an article from a person invited to testing, including private server testing, before ESO went live. This included testing the add-ons. I have also included a paragraph from their article that explains why we have what we have on PC.

    https://exploringeso.com/2014/03/
    ZOS provided the game’s API as a way for Addon authors to enhance their user interface to suit the preferences of certain sections of their playerbase. This was done for two primary reasons. One, because it’s obvious that with a game like TESO there is no way to please every type of player the game will attract with a single user interface. And two, because the crowd that is typically the most desiring of custom interfaces is the MMO crowd of players; a crowd of players that typically have the fewest reservations about using Addons.

    The article also goes on to talk about the "API nerf" as there was a discussion during beta testing of the game after add-ons were made available, about the information that players would have access to. In the end, Zenimax greatly reduced the information available via the API.

    Further, Zenimax makes changes to the API with every update which has included removing more information from what is available in the API.

    All of this shows this is something Zenimax is very much in control of, making these add-ons very legitimate by definition.

    Thank you and have a good day.




  • colossalvoids
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    Just quick fyi about a subject, a lot of groups can't care less what you run if you're performing well enough for what they're going for. That said when someone is acting as "I'm above everyone" it indicates a selfish non team player most of the times or just a difficult person to deal with so groups generally prefer those to stay away. Things like people actively avoiding add-ons and vocal/toxic about it are going right into that box. In a team your personal wants might be an obstacle.

    It's not some kind of conspiracy, people just prefer playing with ones on a same page as them. Telling making your own group isn't an insult, that's how specific need groups were always made, by people in those exact needs.
  • wilykcat
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    I never was a fan of add-ons that are used for online games. I like using what I got.

    I know there are dps tracking and/or ranking add-ons and those ones I'm not a fan of (it's a long story why that is and it started in world of warcraft).

    I don't understand why lots of guilds require players to use addons though. I don't sign up for those guilds that require them.

    Lots of those websites of where to get add-ons are blocked on my internet and computer because of security reasons. Also discord is blocked. I want to keep my computer and account safe so I choose not to install any addons used for in-game when online gaming.
  • Braffin
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    wilykcat wrote: »
    I never was a fan of add-ons that are used for online games. I like using what I got.

    I know there are dps tracking and/or ranking add-ons and those ones I'm not a fan of (it's a long story why that is and it started in world of warcraft).

    I don't understand why lots of guilds require players to use addons though. I don't sign up for those guilds that require them.

    Lots of those websites of where to get add-ons are blocked on my internet and computer because of security reasons. Also discord is blocked. I want to keep my computer and account safe so I choose not to install any addons used for in-game when online gaming.

    I can't say about other games, but as pointed out before (especially @Amottica provided critical sources) addons were an intended feature in eso even before the game launched.

    If one intended to be sarcastic, he could say that zos relied heavily on the modding community to finish the game.
    Never get between a cat and it's candy!
    ---
    Overland difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 24 DLCs. 40 game changing updates including One Tamriel, an overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver & Gold as a "you think you do but you don't" - tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game. I'm bored of dungeons, I'm bored of trials; make a personal difficulty slider for overland. It's not that hard.
  • CameraBeardThePirate
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    maxetro wrote: »


    About pvp, I don`t know. But I`ve seen many times how people dodge snipe or sorcerer crystals from max distance without any visual clues or even without seeing the enemy, over and over again. But as I said, that`s not the point.

    This also isn't true anymore even though it's touted by many. ZOS has restricted API access to not allow notifications of these things in PVP for a while now.

    You also don't need visual cues to dodge a lot of attacks in this game - most have audio cues that are really easy to notice, and with each update they add more travel times and cast times to make things even easier to react to.
    Edited by CameraBeardThePirate on June 21, 2023 12:31PM
  • Soarora
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    I want to add to this discussion a perspective I have… elder scrolls online is of course an elder scrolls game. What is elder scrolls known for? Several things but one of which is the thriving modding community; fixing, polishing, adding to, and completely changing the single player games. I see mods, or addons in this case, as just a part of the elder scrolls experience.
    PC/NA Dungeoneer (Tank/DPS/Heal), Trialist (DPS/Tank/Heal), and amateur Battlegrounder (DPS) with a passion for The Elder Scrolls lore
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