Thoughts on new mythic balance

TKo_ROUSE

Today the new mythic Velothi Ur-Mage’s Amulet took a huge hit. I do agree that the initial iteration of it was likely a little OP. Honestly I doubt our raid group even tests this new iteration of it as it just doesn't seem to provide much value.

I want to take a look at a past mythic. Sea Serpents Coil. What made this a good mythic? In my opinion it is a couple things.
1. First it gave us an option to remove a support set. It provides major courage so we free up a healer set for something else. Assuming you can have high uptime on it which limits it to certain fights.
2. There is a benefit but a decent size draw back. You get major berserk and can free up a support set but you also deal with a snare debuff which could cause complications in content.

So the Amulet was likely a little OP on release:
1. You had your benefit and your drawback of course. More skill damage in exchange for almost no LA/HA damage. Although I think the ratio could have been decreased a bit as LA's have been nerfed over recent patches. They are no longer 20% of your damage in a single target fight. You seemed to get more skill damage than LA loss. It made this mythic even good on single target fights (although maybe not dummy parsing).
2. But it got likely a bit OP as it allowed groups to remove multiple support sets. You got 5k pen allowing you to remove something like alkosh or crimson in a medium armor group. But you also got 15% crit damage which could allow you to drop elemental catalyst out of groups as well.

My thoughts:
1. Put the penetration back up to 5k. If this is a PVP concern move that to only affect PvE monsters just as you did the skill damage buff.
2. The crit damage to minor force seems okay. This forces optomized groups to still use that second support set for crit damage. However it does help players who may not keep good minor force uptime in content. Yet it provides no benefit to the top end parsers.
3. If you still think it is too powerful after the above changes just take a percentage or two off the increase in skill damage value.

I think the idea place for this item would be to be strong in trash pulls and add heavy boss fights like Bahsei or Reef. Yet try to keep the single target potential a little bit under mora and kilt. In it's current iteration I am not sure anyone will be using this mythic.

Soarora

I think the point of the mythic is that it’s not supposed to be used for optimized groups. Read the dev note: “…mitigate the losses of not perfectly weaving while not overtaking those types of builds”. The nerf is doing what it’s intended to do.

Vulkunne

Soarora wrote: »

I think the point of the mythic is that it’s not supposed to be used for optimized groups. Read the dev note: “…mitigate the losses of not perfectly weaving while not overtaking those types of builds”. The nerf is doing what it’s intended to do.

Correct.

Shepoffire

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Sockermannen

i do like these changes, the 15% damage bonus alone is still stronger than weaving, we just get a little extra on top of that in the shape of minor force and unnamed penetration.

The previous iteration of the mythic would absolutely have been BiS for all raid comps. Most end game raiders i’ve chatted with were wondering whenever they should even let someone without the mythic into progs or not, if one item can have that much of an impact on the raiding scene then i’d say that it’s poorly balanced.

From what i’ve gathered so far from post nerf discussions it seems that it’ll likely still see use, just not be mandatory, and that it will likely be BiS for trash

Soarora

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Theorycrafting setups around new mythics can be fun. Being forced to farm a mythic and use it is not. Same problem with Oakensoul, only this mythic is hopefully being saved from the “you have to use this mythic or get out” fate using this nerf.

Shepoffire

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Theorycrafting setups around new mythics can be fun. Being forced to farm a mythic and use it is not. Same problem with Oakensoul, only this mythic is hopefully being saved from the “you have to use this mythic or get out” fate using this nerf.

No one's is gonna use it now

Necrotech_Master

Sockermannen wrote: »

i do like these changes, the 15% damage bonus alone is still stronger than weaving, we just get a little extra on top of that in the shape of minor force and unnamed penetration.

The previous iteration of the mythic would absolutely have been BiS for all raid comps. Most end game raiders i’ve chatted with were wondering whenever they should even let someone without the mythic into progs or not, if one item can have that much of an impact on the raiding scene then i’d say that it’s poorly balanced.

From what i’ve gathered so far from post nerf discussions it seems that it’ll likely still see use, just not be mandatory, and that it will likely be BiS for trash

there is a caveat on that dmg bonus though, that raw +15% dmg does not affect procs, which the devs noted as intended, but may change in the future depending on how they see things

Soarora

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Theorycrafting setups around new mythics can be fun. Being forced to farm a mythic and use it is not. Same problem with Oakensoul, only this mythic is hopefully being saved from the “you have to use this mythic or get out” fate using this nerf.

No one's is gonna use it now

People who struggle with weaving in content and those who refuse to weave at all will, that’s the point of the mythic. You’re telling someone who’s been parsing with it and intends to get it as a backup setup for when weaving is hard or painful that no one’s gonna use it. If no one’s gonna use it then it’s me, I’m no one.

Shepoffire

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Theorycrafting setups around new mythics can be fun. Being forced to farm a mythic and use it is not. Same problem with Oakensoul, only this mythic is hopefully being saved from the “you have to use this mythic or get out” fate using this nerf.

No one's is gonna use it now

People who struggle with weaving in content and those who refuse to weave at all will, that’s the point of the mythic. You’re telling someone who’s been parsing with it and intends to get it as a backup setup for when weaving is hard or painful that no one’s gonna use it. If no one’s gonna use it then it’s me, I’m no one.

It's hardly worth it at this point. It's for casual lazy players. Nothing fun for the end game community lol. So many worthless mythics and set in the game but here we are. Guess questing casually is end game

Soarora

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Theorycrafting setups around new mythics can be fun. Being forced to farm a mythic and use it is not. Same problem with Oakensoul, only this mythic is hopefully being saved from the “you have to use this mythic or get out” fate using this nerf.

No one's is gonna use it now

People who struggle with weaving in content and those who refuse to weave at all will, that’s the point of the mythic. You’re telling someone who’s been parsing with it and intends to get it as a backup setup for when weaving is hard or painful that no one’s gonna use it. If no one’s gonna use it then it’s me, I’m no one.

It's hardly worth it at this point. It's for casual lazy players. Nothing fun for the end game community lol. So many worthless mythics and set in the game but here we are. Guess questing casually is end game

I’m not a casual, nor am I lazy. I fully intend to work it into endgame setups (though again, primarily as a backup setup for me… I do weave) and I’m convinced I will make it work. Do I parse 120k? No. Should this mythic make a parse 120k? No. Is 120k the baseline for what’s acceptable? No. And honestly, it shouldn’t be “fun for the endgame community”, not when that would mean “get Necrom, farm this mythic, use it, or else you can’t join”.

merpins

It's a bad mythic now, really. I don't see any point in slotting it now. And it didn't have much of a point before anyway, since it was a DPS loss for every class other than Arcanist. But now it's just a DPS loss, even for Arcanist that doesn't LA weave as often.

Shepoffire

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Theorycrafting setups around new mythics can be fun. Being forced to farm a mythic and use it is not. Same problem with Oakensoul, only this mythic is hopefully being saved from the “you have to use this mythic or get out” fate using this nerf.

No one's is gonna use it now

People who struggle with weaving in content and those who refuse to weave at all will, that’s the point of the mythic. You’re telling someone who’s been parsing with it and intends to get it as a backup setup for when weaving is hard or painful that no one’s gonna use it. If no one’s gonna use it then it’s me, I’m no one.

It's hardly worth it at this point. It's for casual lazy players. Nothing fun for the end game community lol. So many worthless mythics and set in the game but here we are. Guess questing casually is end game

I’m not a casual, nor am I lazy. I fully intend to work it into endgame setups (though again, primarily as a backup setup for me… I do weave) and I’m convinced I will make it work. Do I parse 120k? No. Should this mythic make a parse 120k? No. Is 120k the baseline for what’s acceptable? No. And honestly, it shouldn’t be “fun for the endgame community”, not when that would mean “get Necrom, farm this mythic, use it, or else you can’t join”.

May as well run oaken then lol. This gives you nothing that isn't already super easily unattainable. Plus oaken gives you everything else. No need for brutality/sorcery. Oh and minor slayer. Velothi is utter trash now

Lucifer9th

With these changes, u can be sure all people who was interested in it for pvp will use the Esoteric Environment Greaves instead, tank meta forever

Soarora

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Theorycrafting setups around new mythics can be fun. Being forced to farm a mythic and use it is not. Same problem with Oakensoul, only this mythic is hopefully being saved from the “you have to use this mythic or get out” fate using this nerf.

No one's is gonna use it now

People who struggle with weaving in content and those who refuse to weave at all will, that’s the point of the mythic. You’re telling someone who’s been parsing with it and intends to get it as a backup setup for when weaving is hard or painful that no one’s gonna use it. If no one’s gonna use it then it’s me, I’m no one.

It's hardly worth it at this point. It's for casual lazy players. Nothing fun for the end game community lol. So many worthless mythics and set in the game but here we are. Guess questing casually is end game

I’m not a casual, nor am I lazy. I fully intend to work it into endgame setups (though again, primarily as a backup setup for me… I do weave) and I’m convinced I will make it work. Do I parse 120k? No. Should this mythic make a parse 120k? No. Is 120k the baseline for what’s acceptable? No. And honestly, it shouldn’t be “fun for the endgame community”, not when that would mean “get Necrom, farm this mythic, use it, or else you can’t join”.

May as well run oaken then lol. This gives you nothing that isn't already super easily unattainable. Plus oaken gives you everything else. No need for brutality/sorcery. Oh and minor slayer. Velothi is utter trash now

If you’ve seen me around (I guess you have not) you’d know I’ve been arguing hard against the popularity of oakenHA in endgame. I’m not running oakensoul. I am by no means a bad DPS either (100k parse on a warden, could go higher on dk but haven’t bothered, 60%+ group damage in dungeons, top 50% trial dps…). I use a 2-bar traditional build with weaving, that’s how I like to play. My wrists just hurt sometimes. But it’s funny you mention oakensoul, since endgamers forcing everyone in their groups to use it is exactly my problem with it. Velothi should look bad, or else it’d become another oakensoul and nearly all runs will be oakensoul or velothi based. I’m not changing my build for other people for reasons that are “you just have to”, “you won’t get [support set]”, etc. I enjoy my agency.

Shepoffire

Lucifer9th wrote: »

With these changes, u can be sure all people who was interested in it for pvp will use the Esoteric Environment Greaves instead, tank meta forever

Yup. And the tank meta only seems to get worse.

bachpain

Soarora wrote: »

I think the point of the mythic is that it’s not supposed to be used for optimized groups. Read the dev note: “…mitigate the losses of not perfectly weaving while not overtaking those types of builds”. The nerf is doing what it’s intended to do.

If that is the case then why touch the pen at all? Because the only time you will need high pen is solo or pug where in the small group there is no one providing the buffs/debuffs.

Soarora

bachpain wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I think the point of the mythic is that it’s not supposed to be used for optimized groups. Read the dev note: “…mitigate the losses of not perfectly weaving while not overtaking those types of builds”. The nerf is doing what it’s intended to do.

If that is the case then why touch the pen at all? Because the only time you will need high pen is solo or pug where in the small group there is no one providing the buffs/debuffs.

Apparently people were intending to build entire group setups around the penetration. Like how if there’s too many oakensoul players, you don’t get yoln. Oops! Too many velothi, no pen for you. Though, could also have the pen scale like pale order.

bachpain

Soarora wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I think the point of the mythic is that it’s not supposed to be used for optimized groups. Read the dev note: “…mitigate the losses of not perfectly weaving while not overtaking those types of builds”. The nerf is doing what it’s intended to do.

If that is the case then why touch the pen at all? Because the only time you will need high pen is solo or pug where in the small group there is no one providing the buffs/debuffs.

Apparently people were intending to build entire group setups around the penetration. Like how if there’s too many oakensoul players, you don’t get yoln. Oops! Too many velothi, no pen for you. Though, could also have the pen scale like pale order.

I guess I would put this in the WHO CARES category personally. Would have been great to see some variety in groups rather than the tanks/healers being the buff carriers for the DPS. Would be great to see something other than the wading kilt in use in trials and pillar of nirn/relequin. If it was up there in strength to be usable in place of the kilt and people not LA weaving who gives a care? I was happy to see another playstyle emerging to be a third faction if you will in this LA vs HA discussion. Terrible that people were coming up with groups utilizing a new mythic! From everything I saw on the PTS myself and in videos it was strong but in no way OP.

Soarora

bachpain wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I think the point of the mythic is that it’s not supposed to be used for optimized groups. Read the dev note: “…mitigate the losses of not perfectly weaving while not overtaking those types of builds”. The nerf is doing what it’s intended to do.

If that is the case then why touch the pen at all? Because the only time you will need high pen is solo or pug where in the small group there is no one providing the buffs/debuffs.

Apparently people were intending to build entire group setups around the penetration. Like how if there’s too many oakensoul players, you don’t get yoln. Oops! Too many velothi, no pen for you. Though, could also have the pen scale like pale order.

I guess I would put this in the WHO CARES category personally. Would have been great to see some variety in groups rather than the tanks/healers being the buff carriers for the DPS. Would be great to see something other than the wading kilt in use in trials and pillar of nirn/relequin. If it was up there in strength to be usable in place of the kilt and people not LA weaving who gives a care? I was happy to see another playstyle emerging to be a third faction if you will in this LA vs HA discussion. Terrible that people were coming up with groups utilizing a new mythic!

I care because I don't want to be forced into using a mythic to get into groups. Thing is that with kilt and moras, its bonuses that affect only you. Same thing with class buffs like... okay so an arcanist is giving minor courage so everyone gets minor courage and the tank can wear something other than yoln. Those things are great. Requiring someone to wear a mythic is not, unless it's scorepushing. For an example, if the necklace were changed to give like... give minor berserk on top of the 15% unique damage done against monsters then that's fine. No supports change except healer can use other morph of combat prayer. People can give themselves minor berserk in other ways if they aren't using the mythic. Dropping tremorscale, crimson, yoln, SPC, etc. without an individual way to get those buffs back outside of using a mythic is an awful idea to me, unless done in a core group. Non-support mythics should not be changing the group structure or else everyone has to use the mythic.
And yeah, I want the necklace to be viable for no-weave builds too. Just not BiS to the point where I will literally have to use it or not run.

KlauthWarthog

This was a good change.
As a mostly solo/pug player, the original version would benefit me a lot, but it was yet another all-or-nothing for top end groups. Either everybody wears it, and the support sets can be changed (and we get a brand new round of power creep), or nobody wears it. And, with the potential for power creep, the choice that would be made is quite obvious.
New item sets should increase build diversity, not reduce it, and must not be a convenient excuse to postpone fixing actual issues with the combat system.

YandereGirlfriend

And here I was hoping for some extra damage in PvP to help alleviate the dreadful tank meta.

NOPE!

No point in farming this now and another set that could have been interesting banished to the Shadow Realm.

Shepoffire

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

And here I was hoping for some extra damage in PvP to help alleviate the dreadful tank meta.

NOPE!

No point in farming this now and another set that could have been interesting banished to the Shadow Realm.

We aren't allowed to have fun. I swear people have some sort of emotional attachment to their rooms it'll break their heart if they die. Tank meta has sucked all the fun out of pvp

jaws343

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

And here I was hoping for some extra damage in PvP to help alleviate the dreadful tank meta.

NOPE!

No point in farming this now and another set that could have been interesting banished to the Shadow Realm.

It was incredibly clear and straight forward that this particular mythic was intended as a PVE alternative. Especially with the "against monsters" stapled right onto it.

So, it is incredibly odd to see people complaining after they further reinforced that by making the non against monsters portion of the mythic less impactful.

They clearly do not want this being abused in PVP at release, in any way, like countless other mythics. This is meant for PVE. This nerf just reinforces that idea.

Why anyone expected this to ever be useful in PVP is beyond me.

bachpain

KlauthWarthog wrote: »

This was a good change.
As a mostly solo/pug player, the original version would benefit me a lot, but it was yet another all-or-nothing for top end groups. Either everybody wears it, and the support sets can be changed (and we get a brand new round of power creep), or nobody wears it. And, with the potential for power creep, the choice that would be made is quite obvious.
New item sets should increase build diversity, not reduce it, and must not be a convenient excuse to postpone fixing actual issues with the combat system.

If this is the case, then how is leveling it to useless, (literally no mythic is a better option then what it currently brings) the right option? You are cutting your DPS to use it for the one useful buff that really isn't going to compensate for what you will lose. What is the point? Because we are then left with the nothing of the all or nothing with no build diversity. The supports will still be buttonholed into their sets while DPS is buttonholed into 4 or 5 sets plus kilt/1 piece slime/ arena back bar. This now literally brings nothing to the table.

PVPers are frustrated and bored and a lot have left.
PVEers are frustrated and bored and a lot have left.

The whole idea of an expansion is power creep to some degree or the game doesn't advance. I am still looking for reasons to purchase the expansion to be honest with you. This mythic sums up my feelings of the whole chapter; it feels like a step back instead of a step forward like it was introduced as. People need some new, powerful things to make builds, group comps around. This is an old game, it has gotten stale.

sarahthes

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Theorycrafting setups around new mythics can be fun. Being forced to farm a mythic and use it is not. Same problem with Oakensoul, only this mythic is hopefully being saved from the “you have to use this mythic or get out” fate using this nerf.

No one's is gonna use it now

People who struggle with weaving in content and those who refuse to weave at all will, that’s the point of the mythic. You’re telling someone who’s been parsing with it and intends to get it as a backup setup for when weaving is hard or painful that no one’s gonna use it. If no one’s gonna use it then it’s me, I’m no one.

They'll just use oakensoul. It's better.

IAVITNI

TKo_ROUSE wrote: »

1. Put the penetration back up to 5k. If this is a PVP concern move that to only affect PvE monsters just as you did the skill damage buff.

What about having the 5k pen locked to AoE damage only? Something like:

Gain 1650 penetration, increasing to 4968 for your Area of Affect damage abilities.

And/or adding an additional 5% unnamed crit damage if that isn't enough.

Makes this a good AoE option but you're still better off stacking things like alkosh for burst/boss kills.

IrishOphidia

Soarora wrote: »

I’m not a casual, nor am I lazy. I fully intend to work it into endgame setups (though again, primarily as a backup setup for me… I do weave) and I’m convinced I will make it work. Do I parse 120k? No. Should this mythic make a parse 120k? No. Is 120k the baseline for what’s acceptable? No. And honestly, it shouldn’t be “fun for the endgame community”, not when that would mean “get Necrom, farm this mythic, use it, or else you can’t join”.

You're not talking about endgame groups. You're talking about mid-tier goof groups. Endgame groups don't gatekeep because of a mythic lol. As long as you're pulling your weight then you're fine. You all seriously have to stop confusing weird mid-tier groups with actual endgame and claiming their weird toxicity is the norm. Also, the mythic change only hurts newer players, and not the other way around. It doesn't really affect experienced players at all. However, the pen nerf makes it subpar, the addition of Minor Force is of no benefit since its sourced from abilities that won't be dropped, and the 15% flat dmg is mediocre. You'd be giving up another more beneficial mythic to run a big fat 0 considering it also snuffs your LA dmg. It'll be decent in trash, but not always BiS and even that is yet to be determined and isn't looking great from some of the testing already being done.

IrishOphidia

Soarora wrote: »

If you’ve seen me around (I guess you have not) you’d know I’ve been arguing hard against the popularity of oakenHA in endgame. I’m not running oakensoul. I am by no means a bad DPS either (100k parse on a warden, could go higher on dk but haven’t bothered, 60%+ group damage in dungeons, top 50% trial dps…). I use a 2-bar traditional build with weaving, that’s how I like to play. My wrists just hurt sometimes. But it’s funny you mention oakensoul, since endgamers forcing everyone in their groups to use it is exactly my problem with it. Velothi should look bad, or else it’d become another oakensoul and nearly all runs will be oakensoul or velothi based. I’m not changing my build for other people for reasons that are “you just have to”, “you won’t get [support set]”, etc. I enjoy my agency.

Endgame groups don't use Oakensoul in serious runs and most definitely aren't forcing people to run it. You're confusing mid-tier with endgame yet again.

Soarora

IrishOphidia wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

I’m not a casual, nor am I lazy. I fully intend to work it into endgame setups (though again, primarily as a backup setup for me… I do weave) and I’m convinced I will make it work. Do I parse 120k? No. Should this mythic make a parse 120k? No. Is 120k the baseline for what’s acceptable? No. And honestly, it shouldn’t be “fun for the endgame community”, not when that would mean “get Necrom, farm this mythic, use it, or else you can’t join”.

You're not talking about endgame groups. You're talking about mid-tier goof groups. Endgame groups don't gatekeep because of a mythic lol. As long as you're pulling your weight then you're fine. You all seriously have to stop confusing weird mid-tier groups with actual endgame and claiming their weird toxicity is the norm. Also, the mythic change only hurts newer players, and not the other way around. It doesn't really affect experienced players at all. However, the pen nerf makes it subpar, the addition of Minor Force is of no benefit since its sourced from abilities that won't be dropped, and the 15% flat dmg is mediocre. You'd be giving up another more beneficial mythic to run a big fat 0 considering it also snuffs your LA dmg. It'll be decent in trash, but not always BiS and even that is yet to be determined and isn't looking great from some of the testing already being done.

By all means, if I am wrong I will apologize for my discussions. Because this is fantastic news to me if true. The reason I keep attributing it to endgamers is because I know for a fact that the people involved are endgamers. But group-wise (12man, I know 4man is having this weird gatekeeping but its easy enough to just avoid them) if it's only mid-game then that's good enough for me.

James-Wayne

Shepoffire wrote: »

But here we are with oakensoul where you don't need to manage hardly anything and can have as much hp as a tank. Are we not allowed to have fun

Agreed.
Oakensoul is going to be the best choice for players who can't weave if the patch goes like it is, there is no need to run the new amulet when Oakensoul far outweighs it.

I thought the whole point of this mythic was to provide something extra to people who cant weave but also want the double bar option still which provides more choices in setups.