Ember's Intuition perk seems more like a loss than a gain.

gabbo1928

EDIT: Others pointed out (and I have since confirmed) that pickpocketing a hidden wallet does not reduce the number of loot items an NPC carries. It does still reduce your success chance for the next pickpocket, and I always pick twice, then stab and loot, so I wasn't aware that I was missing out on a final piece of loot by doing that. Even though that resolves my specific complaint, I'm leaving this thread because it came to light that the upcoming Argonian companion's perk increases your odds of trophy fish, which actively works against people who are looking for filet fish instead of trophy fish. Since completing a companion's achievements unlocks their perk account-wide, it would be nice to have a QoL update to allow you to toggle those bonuses on/off for whatever reason.

-- Original thread below --

Of the four companions released thus far, three of them have perks that are truly bonuses. Bastian's will sometimes put bonus stats on looted potions. Isobel will sometimes give you extra goodies in addition to regular world boss loot, and Mirri's will sometimes give you extra loot from treasure chests.

Then there's Ember. With her, you will sometimes get a "hidden wallet" containing a random gold amount when pickpocketing. The crucial difference is that you get this wallet instead of other loot, not in addition to it.

With my passives and CP, most of my pickpocket loot is green or blue, with the occasional white or rare purple. Also due to passives and CP, I get 135 gold when I sell a green treasure to a fence. Of the dozen or so hidden wallets I opened today, only one had more than 135 gold in it (151), meaning that most of the time they are worth less than a green treasure, which is my most frequent drop.

It seems like this perk should be adjusted to work like the others, granting you the hidden wallet in addition to the loot you would have gotten. Or the gold amount in the wallet should be adjusted to fall within a higher range, at least between the 135 and 270 gold that a fully decked out player would get from a fence for green or blue treasure.

I'm sure it seems like an inconsequential amount of gold, but I pickpocket a lot, and it is really starting to feel like I'm losing out every time I get a wallet. And as far as I can tell, there is no way to disable Ember's perk once you have unlocked it.

valenwood_vegan

Totally agree... and personally I find all the perks annoying and wish they could be turned off.

They mostly just provide inventory junk. Bastian's potions have been bugged since Blackwood dropped, and they don't actually provide the bonus stats.

But Ember's is definitely the worst and I have avoided interacting with her at all really so I won't be stuck with her "perk".

EDIT to add: As I understand it, Sharp as Night (the new Argonian companion in Necrom) has a perk that increases the chance of finding rare fish while fishing. This is NOT a perk if one is fishing to find uncut fish to sell or filet for roe... this seems like another companion I'll have to avoid.

Kisakee

You're not losing anything as the wallets don't add anything to your fence limit. You may need to grab another pocket but wallets are always a bonus.

Credible_Joe

woah woah woah

You're telling me a wallet with a handfull of gold could potentially displace a purple furnishing plan or a motif chapter?

This is a huge incentive to never build rapport with Ember. That's insane.

gabbo1928

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

As I understand it, Sharp as Night (the new Argonian companion in Necrom) has a perk that increases the chance of finding rare fish while fishing. This is NOT a perk if one is fishing to find uncut fish to sell or filet for roe... this seems like another companion I'll have to avoid.

I hadn't even looked into the new companions and their perks yet. All of my fishing thus far has been for trophy fish, but since I (finally!) completed every fishing achievement in the game a few weeks ago, I could see fishing for Perfect Roe now.

I definitely agree about being able to toggle the perks, because there are clearly cases (especially fishing now) where having the perk would be detrimental to your goal. All of the trophy fish rate modifiers thus far (CP, the fishing bonus food, fishing with other players) have been things you can choose to use or not use depending on your intent. Hopefully ZOS will give us the option to choose here as well.

gabbo1928

Kisakee wrote: »

You're not losing anything as the wallets don't add anything to your fence limit. You may need to grab another pocket but wallets are always a bonus.

That depends on what you are getting it in place of. If I would have gotten a blue treasure I could fence for 270, and I get 108 gold out of a wallet instead, that's a loss. I have multiple characters to thieve with, so the fencing limit is never an issue for me.

Credible_Joe wrote: »

You're telling me a wallet with a handfull of gold could potentially displace a purple furnishing plan or a motif chapter?

I can't say for sure, as I don't know the loot roll mechanics involved in the hidden wallets. If they only ever replace white loot, then that is perfectly fine, because white loot is hardly worth my time. The problem is that you get the wallet instead of something else, so every time it nags at me what I could have gotten instead of the wallet.

valenwood_vegan

Indeed, I can't say for sure whether Ember's hidden wallet can replace a valuable item... I just don't want to risk it.

It would be nice if zos would chime in and tell us ( hi @ZOS_Kevin ) - but I don't think they responded in the past when this was brought up... if they did I wasn't able to find it.

Necrotech_Master

if you pick a wallet from embers perk, it doesnt count as a pickpocket on the npc

when ive had the wallet pop up ive been able to pick 4x from the npc, not the normal 3

VampirateV

I don't see what the issue is. Wallets don't replace a pickpocket attempt; they're given in addition to the standard 3 attempts. A couple days ago, for instance: after 2 successful picks I got a wallet (so 3rd attempt), and then picked the last item which left the npc on 'empty'. That means I got a total of 4 picks in on one npc, whereas without Ember, I would only have gotten 3. It truly is just a bonus, not a replacement.

valenwood_vegan

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if you pick a wallet from embers perk, it doesnt count as a pickpocket on the npc

when ive had the wallet pop up ive been able to pick 4x from the npc, not the normal 3

That's useful to know, thanks! Though I still worry that it might replace a valuable item that would have otherwise come up on *that* pickpocketing attempt... and then also if you poke on the third attempt and get the wallet, you won't get a chance at a fourth attempt (not sure if this is a possibility). Basically I still wouldn't want to have her perk active without a clearer understanding of exactly how it functions.

It's not as bad as I was assuming - but still I think we should be able to turn off the perks if we prefer.

Holycannoli

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if you pick a wallet from embers perk, it doesnt count as a pickpocket on the npc

when ive had the wallet pop up ive been able to pick 4x from the npc, not the normal 3

The wallet should still appear with an item you pickpocket as additional loot because you still have to randomly roll for the next attempt, and I don't know about anyone else but I fail 75% and higher chances all the time.

FeedbackOnly

valenwood_vegan wrote: »

Totally agree... and personally I find all the perks annoying and wish they could be turned off.

They mostly just provide inventory junk. Bastian's potions have been bugged since Blackwood dropped, and they don't actually provide the bonus stats.

But Ember's is definitely the worst and I have avoided interacting with her at all really so I won't be stuck with her "perk".

EDIT to add: As I understand it, Sharp as Night (the new Argonian companion in Necrom) has a perk that increases the chance of finding rare fish while fishing. This is NOT a perk if one is fishing to find uncut fish to sell or filet for roe... this seems like another companion I'll have to avoid.

@ZOS_Kevin can we get an update on bastian potions fix?

Twig_Garlicshine

I asked Zos about Ember's perk through placing a ticket.
Zos refused to confirm whether the bonus was "in addition" to or "instead of" other loot.
I will never get Ember's perk until it is confirmed one way or the other by -> Zos.

I also will not even bother leveling the Argonian companion if their perk remains a nerf to fishing.

gabbo1928

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if you pick a wallet from embers perk, it doesnt count as a pickpocket on the npc

VampirateV wrote: »

Wallets don't replace a pickpocket attempt; they're given in addition to the standard 3 attempts.

Thanks for the insight. I've gotten so used to pick-pick-stab that I probably never would have noticed this myself. That is definitely good to know, though I'm sad to think of all the extra loot I have missed out on over the past year! I wish ZOS had made it more clear how the perk functions.

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin can we get an update on bastian potions fix?

I'm more concerned about Sharp-as-Night's fishing perk now that I'm aware of it. If Kevin could address it, or pass a request along to the dev team to allow players to toggle each unlocked companion perks on/off at will, that would be great.

zaria

VampirateV wrote: »

I don't see what the issue is. Wallets don't replace a pickpocket attempt; they're given in addition to the standard 3 attempts. A couple days ago, for instance: after 2 successful picks I got a wallet (so 3rd attempt), and then picked the last item which left the npc on 'empty'. That means I got a total of 4 picks in on one npc, whereas without Ember, I would only have gotten 3. It truly is just a bonus, not a replacement.

Interesting will check this out during next pickpocket endeavor, recommend others to test this to.
I'm pretty sure the hidden valets is an additional bonus item.
I tend to pickpocket people in Rawl and pick them dry but pick-pick-stab would also work but will give other data.

This is trivial to test, assume endeavor is pickpocket 12 items.
Do not have stolen items in inventory starting this. If you have 12 items and 1-3 valets its bonus loot.
If you have less than 12 stolen items but stolen items+ valets = 12 they replace some loot.
Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an valet and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

This can also be done outside of pickpocket endeavors if you counts pickings, total and on npc.

Necrotech_Master

zaria wrote: »

VampirateV wrote: »

I don't see what the issue is. Wallets don't replace a pickpocket attempt; they're given in addition to the standard 3 attempts. A couple days ago, for instance: after 2 successful picks I got a wallet (so 3rd attempt), and then picked the last item which left the npc on 'empty'. That means I got a total of 4 picks in on one npc, whereas without Ember, I would only have gotten 3. It truly is just a bonus, not a replacement.

Interesting will check this out during next pickpocket endeavor, recommend others to test this to.
I'm pretty sure the hidden valets is an additional bonus item.
I tend to pickpocket people in Rawl and pick them dry but pick-pick-stab would also work but will give other data.

This is trivial to test, assume endeavor is pickpocket 12 items.
Do not have stolen items in inventory starting this. If you have 12 items and 1-3 valets its bonus loot.
If you have less than 12 stolen items but stolen items+ valets = 12 they replace some loot.
Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an valet and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

This can also be done outside of pickpocket endeavors if you counts pickings, total and on npc.

it definitely works for this

when there is a number required for picks on the endeavor at like 10

normally with 3 picks per npc that means you would have to find a 4th npc to pick

but there have been times ive gotten the ember wallet pick, which means 1 of those had 4 picks (3 + 3 + 4 = 10) so i didnt have to find a 4th npc for 1 extra pick

Piojo

zaria wrote: »

Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an wallet [typo fixed] and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

I wonder if the decision tree that this mechanic presents us with was thought through.

From a farming perspective, I would never pickpocket on the 3rd attempt on the off chance I get a hidden wallet. If the 3rd item turns out not to be a wallet but an item, what do we do? Decline looting the third item and instead use BoW for the respawn? From what's been posted here, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive to check via pickpocketing.

Also, if we decline to take the 3rd item, will the item stay in the "container"/npc? Or will it empty like other containers? I'm not sure of the loot mechanic for npcs is different from static loot sources like urns and chests.

Seem just easier to BoW and go on my farming way.

Necrotech_Master

Piojo wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an wallet [typo fixed] and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

I wonder if the decision tree that this mechanic presents us with was thought through.

From a farming perspective, I would never pickpocket on the 3rd attempt on the off chance I get a hidden wallet. If the 3rd item turns out not to be a wallet but an item, what do we do? Decline looting the third item and instead use BoW for the respawn? From what's been posted here, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive to check via pickpocketing.

Also, if we decline to take the 3rd item, will the item stay in the "container"/npc? Or will it empty like other containers? I'm not sure of the loot mechanic for npcs is different from static loot sources like urns and chests.

Seem just easier to BoW and go on my farming way.

if the 3rd pick is a wallet, you can pick again

you can also pick 3 normal items and sometimes it will still give you the 4th pick (basically guaranteed wallet), instead of showing (empty)

it doesnt matter when you get the wallet, it is not counted against the normal 3 picks you get

you cant "choose" to not loot a pickpocket, the item is just automatically added to your inventory as soon as you initiate the pick (and succeed! lol)

Bo0137

I would also like to point out that the new argonian companion perk makes rare fish more often found. While this is awesome for people like me (achievement hunters), it will reduce the amount of filletable fish (and thus reducing the amount of perfect roe found - which is 95k on PC NA right now). MY take is: 1. put the smart loot on the rare fish. Got the fish? Good, now they're gone!; 2. make rare fish filletable; 3. (bonus) make rare fish unique furniture to place at your house!

Piojo

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Piojo wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an wallet [typo fixed] and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

I wonder if the decision tree that this mechanic presents us with was thought through.

From a farming perspective, I would never pickpocket on the 3rd attempt on the off chance I get a hidden wallet. If the 3rd item turns out not to be a wallet but an item, what do we do? Decline looting the third item and instead use BoW for the respawn? From what's been posted here, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive to check via pickpocketing.

Also, if we decline to take the 3rd item, will the item stay in the "container"/npc? Or will it empty like other containers? I'm not sure of the loot mechanic for npcs is different from static loot sources like urns and chests.

Seem just easier to BoW and go on my farming way.

if the 3rd pick is a wallet, you can pick again

you can also pick 3 normal items and sometimes it will still give you the 4th pick (basically guaranteed wallet), instead of showing (empty)

it doesnt matter when you get the wallet, it is not counted against the normal 3 picks you get

you cant "choose" to not loot a pickpocket, the item is just automatically added to your inventory as soon as you initiate the pick (and succeed! lol)

Okay, thanks for the clarification on the mechanic. However, I think that further supports my question about the dilemma it leaves us with: If I can't choose and the third pick is an item and not a wallet, then I have effectively emptied the npc, thus messing up the npc for respawning with items.

Mithgil

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

if you pick a wallet from embers perk, it doesnt count as a pickpocket on the npc

when ive had the wallet pop up ive been able to pick 4x from the npc, not the normal 3

This. The Hidden Wallet is truly "in addition" to what else you can pick-pocket, and it doesn't affect (lower) the chance for when you do the next pick-pocket on the NPC. The Wallet is a fourth item, in addition to the regular 3 pick-pocket items on a "full" NPC.

Hamish999

Surely the easiest way to counter this if you are going for the purple loots is just to not have Ember active while you pickpocket :shrug:

Necrotech_Master

Piojo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Piojo wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an wallet [typo fixed] and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

I wonder if the decision tree that this mechanic presents us with was thought through.

From a farming perspective, I would never pickpocket on the 3rd attempt on the off chance I get a hidden wallet. If the 3rd item turns out not to be a wallet but an item, what do we do? Decline looting the third item and instead use BoW for the respawn? From what's been posted here, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive to check via pickpocketing.

Also, if we decline to take the 3rd item, will the item stay in the "container"/npc? Or will it empty like other containers? I'm not sure of the loot mechanic for npcs is different from static loot sources like urns and chests.

Seem just easier to BoW and go on my farming way.

if the 3rd pick is a wallet, you can pick again

you can also pick 3 normal items and sometimes it will still give you the 4th pick (basically guaranteed wallet), instead of showing (empty)

it doesnt matter when you get the wallet, it is not counted against the normal 3 picks you get

you cant "choose" to not loot a pickpocket, the item is just automatically added to your inventory as soon as you initiate the pick (and succeed! lol)

Okay, thanks for the clarification on the mechanic. However, I think that further supports my question about the dilemma it leaves us with: If I can't choose and the third pick is an item and not a wallet, then I have effectively emptied the npc, thus messing up the npc for respawning with items.

if you do 3 normal picks, there is still a chance to get a wallet 4th pick before it shows the npc as (empty)

if the npc is (empty) after the 3rd normal pick, then you didnt get a wallet pick, and you are safe to blade of woe the npc so it can respawn to get more picks (if your like farming the area)

PeacefulAnarchy

Hamish999 wrote: »

Surely the easiest way to counter this if you are going for the purple loots is just to not have Ember active while you pickpocket :shrug:

Initially companion perks require you to have them active, but when you earn the Companion keepsake (max rapport and max level) you unlock it accountwide and don't require a companion to be summoned. It then works regardless of the companion being summoned, and works on characters that don't have rapport maxed, I think it even works for characters that haven't even unlocked that companion.

PrincessOfThieves

Hamish999 wrote: »

Surely the easiest way to counter this if you are going for the purple loots is just to not have Ember active while you pickpocket :shrug:

After you get all companion-related achievements their perks are always active. For example, you will keep getting Bastian's potions even if he's not summoned.

Piojo

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Piojo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Piojo wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an wallet [typo fixed] and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

I wonder if the decision tree that this mechanic presents us with was thought through.

From a farming perspective, I would never pickpocket on the 3rd attempt on the off chance I get a hidden wallet. If the 3rd item turns out not to be a wallet but an item, what do we do? Decline looting the third item and instead use BoW for the respawn? From what's been posted here, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive to check via pickpocketing.

Also, if we decline to take the 3rd item, will the item stay in the "container"/npc? Or will it empty like other containers? I'm not sure of the loot mechanic for npcs is different from static loot sources like urns and chests.

Seem just easier to BoW and go on my farming way.

if the 3rd pick is a wallet, you can pick again

you can also pick 3 normal items and sometimes it will still give you the 4th pick (basically guaranteed wallet), instead of showing (empty)

it doesnt matter when you get the wallet, it is not counted against the normal 3 picks you get

you cant "choose" to not loot a pickpocket, the item is just automatically added to your inventory as soon as you initiate the pick (and succeed! lol)

Okay, thanks for the clarification on the mechanic. However, I think that further supports my question about the dilemma it leaves us with: If I can't choose and the third pick is an item and not a wallet, then I have effectively emptied the npc, thus messing up the npc for respawning with items.

if you do 3 normal picks, there is still a chance to get a wallet 4th pick before it shows the npc as (empty)

if the npc is (empty) after the 3rd normal pick, then you didnt get a wallet pick, and you are safe to blade of woe the npc so it can respawn to get more picks (if your like farming the area)

gotcha, thanks, I'm assuming that if you BoW immediately after then it resets the spawn for loot. In contrast, i've come upon npcs before that showed as empty (edit to add: empty as a result of another player having looted them), and when they've respawned after I BoW'd them they still respawned as empty. So there must be a timer at play.

Necrotech_Master

Piojo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Piojo wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

Piojo wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an wallet [typo fixed] and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

I wonder if the decision tree that this mechanic presents us with was thought through.

From a farming perspective, I would never pickpocket on the 3rd attempt on the off chance I get a hidden wallet. If the 3rd item turns out not to be a wallet but an item, what do we do? Decline looting the third item and instead use BoW for the respawn? From what's been posted here, there doesn't seem to be enough incentive to check via pickpocketing.

Also, if we decline to take the 3rd item, will the item stay in the "container"/npc? Or will it empty like other containers? I'm not sure of the loot mechanic for npcs is different from static loot sources like urns and chests.

Seem just easier to BoW and go on my farming way.

if the 3rd pick is a wallet, you can pick again

you can also pick 3 normal items and sometimes it will still give you the 4th pick (basically guaranteed wallet), instead of showing (empty)

it doesnt matter when you get the wallet, it is not counted against the normal 3 picks you get

you cant "choose" to not loot a pickpocket, the item is just automatically added to your inventory as soon as you initiate the pick (and succeed! lol)

Okay, thanks for the clarification on the mechanic. However, I think that further supports my question about the dilemma it leaves us with: If I can't choose and the third pick is an item and not a wallet, then I have effectively emptied the npc, thus messing up the npc for respawning with items.

if you do 3 normal picks, there is still a chance to get a wallet 4th pick before it shows the npc as (empty)

if the npc is (empty) after the 3rd normal pick, then you didnt get a wallet pick, and you are safe to blade of woe the npc so it can respawn to get more picks (if your like farming the area)

gotcha, thanks, I'm assuming that if you BoW immediately after then it resets the spawn for loot. In contrast, i've come upon npcs before that showed as empty (edit to add: empty as a result of another player having looted them), and when they've respawned after I BoW'd them they still respawned as empty. So there must be a timer at play.

yeah, this is why i would recommend blading the npc after your done picking them

i would say its almost the equivalent of not fully looting a chest or material node, though far less people pickpocket than harvesting

as far as im aware the npc was always 3 picks even after it respawned, but its been a long time since i really done a lot of pickpocketing (like on large scale)

the last time i did serious amounts of pickpocketing was when the justice system released in 2015 (i actually finished the 1000 pickpockets achievement about 4-5 days after that patch dropped lol)

zaria

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

VampirateV wrote: »

I don't see what the issue is. Wallets don't replace a pickpocket attempt; they're given in addition to the standard 3 attempts. A couple days ago, for instance: after 2 successful picks I got a wallet (so 3rd attempt), and then picked the last item which left the npc on 'empty'. That means I got a total of 4 picks in on one npc, whereas without Ember, I would only have gotten 3. It truly is just a bonus, not a replacement.

Interesting will check this out during next pickpocket endeavor, recommend others to test this to.
I'm pretty sure the hidden valets is an additional bonus item.
I tend to pickpocket people in Rawl and pick them dry but pick-pick-stab would also work but will give other data.

This is trivial to test, assume endeavor is pickpocket 12 items.
Do not have stolen items in inventory starting this. If you have 12 items and 1-3 valets its bonus loot.
If you have less than 12 stolen items but stolen items+ valets = 12 they replace some loot.
Last in the unlikely event can you pickpocket more than 3 times if you get an valet and pick npc dry you will still have items on the 4th.

This can also be done outside of pickpocket endeavors if you counts pickings, total and on npc.

it definitely works for this

when there is a number required for picks on the endeavor at like 10

normally with 3 picks per npc that means you would have to find a 4th npc to pick

but there have been times ive gotten the ember wallet pick, which means 1 of those had 4 picks (3 + 3 + 4 = 10) so i didnt have to find a 4th npc for 1 extra pick

This assume you don't kill but pick dry

But for harder targets you should get an lower chance for 4th pick.
Now I say its more likely Embers valet is an bonus item but also counts as an an item pickpocket as you get two items but counting how many times you pickpocket npc will also solve thins.

Better rnd is only an factor here if you don't get any of Ember's purses.

Finedaible

I'd argue that Bastian's passive perk is a nerf to my inventory. The frequency of the potions by his passive are not a steady enough supply to be usable. The extra potions are at best a few extra gold but then you constantly have to sell that fodder - or destroy them if you don't have a portable merchant but that just makes it look like another push to buy the merchant and "inventory upgrades."

It would be nice QoL to have the option to toggle the companion passives off at least.

rpa

I'm pretty sure I do not get Bastian potions with characters who have not unlocked him. Which includes all I'm currently playing beyond writs. I think all my pickpockets have Ember unlocked. (I do not bother pickpocketing with low legerdemain chars.)

Hamish999

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

Hamish999 wrote: »

Surely the easiest way to counter this if you are going for the purple loots is just to not have Ember active while you pickpocket :shrug:

After you get all companion-related achievements their perks are always active. For example, you will keep getting Bastian's potions even if he's not summoned.

I must admit I've never seen these on any of my toons.
For example I'm currently doing the Galen story quest on my main with Ember active and I have Bastion fully unlocked to the point of being able to get the potent pots. Never, ever seen a potent pot in my inventory unless Bastion is active.