Replace Mara’s Balm

Wuuffyy

I don’t care about the set.

I’m not going to debate if it was OP or not.

I’m so unhappy that, you- ZOS, have absolutely destroyed yet another set many people have sitting golded-out… And now it’s yet another useless set that will never see an efficient use case again.

Just change the set entirely on the 5pc or something. Have mercy someone on a non purge class actually have access to an efficient purge (you could have just removed the hot/burst/ or all heals).

bachpain

This is yet again the "Let's fix a problem by destroying a set". This is now 2 sets that a large part of the population is using and has upgraded that Zos has hit so hard that it is almost useless and definitely not even on the radar compared to similar sets instead of just adjusting it to make it in line with other sets.

Both storm master, and maras are sets that play to the casual play a few hours a week kinda player. They aren't going to be able to replace them. They don't have millions in gold to re upgrade new sets. They will move on. It just stinks. I have friends that are done with the game now, and what can you say. I know I could tell them that it isn't that bad, there are alternatives etc. But when it took them a whole patch cycle to finally gold every thing out it is a hard sell when they are broke with no more mats and the cost is astronomical.

It is the Zos way, no adjustment just destruction.

Afterip

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don’t care about the set.

I’m not going to debate if it was OP or not.

I’m so unhappy that, you- ZOS, have absolutely destroyed yet another set many people have sitting golded-out… And now it’s yet another useless set that will never see an efficient use case again.

Just change the set entirely on the 5pc or something. Have mercy someone on a non purge class actually have access to an efficient purge (you could have just removed the hot/burst/ or all heals).

Dk cryin abot Mara's nerf?! Wow, its extra RARE TEARS, i should keep it.

Mr_Jord_Joe

I understand your frustration, as i lost a useful set, and fun in PvE too (Plaguebreaker)... There is an alternative, but bad, in terms of conditions, and bonus...

https://eso-sets.com/set/wyrd-trees-blessing

React

You guys are over-exaggerating pretty hard.

The set was obscenely broken. It did (and honestly, still does) way too much. When more than half of the people in PVP are wearing one specific set- there is obviously a problem.

That said, even post nerf, this is still the strongest pvp defensive set in the entire game. Calling it "worthless" is either just incredibly dishonest, or indicative of a lack of understanding as to why the set is strong in the first place.

jaws343

React wrote: »

You guys are over-exaggerating pretty hard.

The set was obscenely broken. It did (and honestly, still does) way too much. When more than half of the people in PVP are wearing one specific set- there is obviously a problem.

That said, even post nerf, this is still the strongest pvp defensive set in the entire game. Calling it "worthless" is either just incredibly dishonest, or indicative of a lack of understanding as to why the set is strong in the first place.

Not to mention, there are a number of purge sets. There was a specific reason people gravitated to Mara's, it wasn't the purge. It was 100% the massive amounts of healing.

xylena_lazarow

React wrote: »

this is still the strongest pvp defensive set in the entire game

100% correct, this set remains egregious even with a 30 second cooldown, way too short in such a high TTK meta. At the very least it should be 60 seconds like Juggernaut, if not removing the burst heal because full purge is op by itself.

I'll decon every piece of gold jewelry of every set I own if it'll end the tank meta.

Nerhesi

This wouldnt' be the first set that has been "destroyed". Example - Oblivion's foe. It also can't be reduced too much further because there are a lot of sets with clearing effects that have the same or shorter cooldown.

Focus on the issue - the issue is high TTK, and the free-availability of so many negative effects. This is an mmorpg with effectively 1 class. The class that heals, dots, mitigates, CCs and bursts.

That is the problem - this game needs an overhaul from a class-based approach (so you'd be pretty much nerfing everyone) to fix the systemic issue. This will never happen due to the lack of motivation, and the history of loud-streamers/1vXers opposing changes that are good for the game but detrimental to them.

Unfortunately. I really like the world, the story, the theme park style, the quests... but maaaan, combat and class identity... oof.

monkiie

Let this set rot into obscurity. It shouldn't have even made it into the game. Biggest crutch set to have ever been added. The only ones angry its getting nerfed are its biggest offenders, absolutely no sympathy. Even with this nerf, still a very strong backbar set.

Amerises

The set has been OP. Yes.
Destroying sets people have golded out jewelry is still messed up. It’s not about this set per-say, it’s about taking a set that people will build out of now, rather than into.

React

Amerises wrote: »

The set has been OP. Yes.
Destroying sets people have golded out jewelry is still messed up. It’s not about this set per-say, it’s about taking a set that people will build out of now, rather than into.

Well this post is about maras balm, and the set has not been "destroyed". That is a gross over exaggeration. It is almost certainly still the strongest defensive set in the game.

It was disgustingly over-performing before. It is now somewhat in line with comparable sets, but still clearly better than them.

kojou

The problem with the set IMO was not what it does, but the lack of strength of anything else to counter it. I think the better choice would be to introduce a set that has an anti purging mechanism that reduces healing by a % stacking for every effect that is purged within a window and have it potentially go to 0%.

That way players can keep their Mara’s, but other players can also run a counter to it.

React

kojou wrote: »

The problem with the set IMO was not what it does, but the lack of strength of anything else to counter it. I think the better choice would be to introduce a set that has an anti purging mechanism that reduces healing by a % stacking for every effect that is purged within a window and have it potentially go to 0%.

That way players can keep their Mara’s, but other players can also run a counter to it.

This is horrible balance and is in part what has led us to where we are now in terms of pvp balance issues.

You shouldn't need sets to counter other sets, and sets shouldn't be used to solve balance issues within the game. That is how we've gotten plaguebreak, Rush of Agony, convergence, maras, snake in the Stars, etc. None of these things have actually solved the problems the developers intended, but instead have simply created their own balance issues that then required additional dev time to resolve.

It's pretty simple; stop adding broken sets to the game. Don't compound the issue by adding broken sets to counter other broken sets.

Vaqual

bachpain

I love the tears over the "tank meta" during a time when the PVP main campaigns have been hopping because well, everyone is willing to play PVP because there is a survivability factor. Wait until all the sweats have is each other to fight and the tears will be rolling again how Zos dropped the ball and doesn't care about PVP. It will be back to low pop prime time on all campaigns. It has been mentioned, people want to feel like they will survive. You aren't changing human nature.

acastanza_ESO

Nerhesi wrote: »

This wouldnt' be the first set that has been "destroyed". Example - Oblivion's foe. It also can't be reduced too much further because there are a lot of sets with clearing effects that have the same or shorter cooldown.

Focus on the issue - the issue is high TTK, and the free-availability of so many negative effects. This is an mmorpg with effectively 1 class. The class that heals, dots, mitigates, CCs and bursts.

That is the problem - this game needs an overhaul from a class-based approach (so you'd be pretty much nerfing everyone) to fix the systemic issue. This will never happen due to the lack of motivation, and the history of loud-streamers/1vXers opposing changes that are good for the game but detrimental to them.

Unfortunately. I really like the world, the story, the theme park style, the quests... but maaaan, combat and class identity... oof.

Imagine calling Oblivion's Foe "destroyed"! for fighting zergs, the DOT from Oblivion's Foe with Soulsplitting trap is huge damage. Now it's not going to get you solo kills, but it's crazy pressure and in terms of raw stat lines, it's a legitimately good offensive set that can be crafted in any weight!

Unless you mean "destroyed" like Mara's has been "destroyed" where it's still going to be one of the strongest sets in the game, just slightly more situational than it was before.

xylena_lazarow

bachpain wrote: »

I love the tears... You aren't changing human nature

Bold of you to claim overall population and tank meta are directly related. I'd wager the overall PvP population now is significantly lower than what it was 5 years ago when the main complaint (years running) was proc damage.

As far as your comments on "sweats" you might wanna read over the 9 billion "nerf ball group" threads full of casual PvPers frustrated by being constantly trolled by nigh-unkillable organized 12-mans running in circles. And don't forget all the "tears" of players of various effort levels who can't handle dying even a single time in a PvP game.

Deleting Mara's Balm wouldn't even change the meta much, just push those players back to using Pariah body pieces or putting Trickery on their back bar, sets they probably have golded out lying in their banks.

TechMaybeHic

Fool me once; shame on you.
Fool me twice; shame on me.
Fool me 3,685 times; ...?

bachpain

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

I love the tears... You aren't changing human nature

Bold of you to claim overall population and tank meta are directly related. I'd wager the overall PvP population now is significantly lower than what it was 5 years ago when the main complaint (years running) was proc damage.

As far as your comments on "sweats" you might wanna read over the 9 billion "nerf ball group" threads full of casual PvPers frustrated by being constantly trolled by nigh-unkillable organized 12-mans running in circles. And don't forget all the "tears" of players of various effort levels who can't handle dying even a single time in a PvP game.

Deleting Mara's Balm wouldn't even change the meta much, just push those players back to using Pariah body pieces or putting Trickery on their back bar, sets they probably have golded out lying in their banks.

You are assuming that everyone in PVP has been doing it for years. There are a TON of players that have just this past few patches taken to PVP. I am in a few discords that have experienced this first hand. There are a lot of OG PVPers still out there but there are a lot that are on the front end of the learning curve that are still wearing the training wheels so to speak.

Panderbander

bachpain wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

bachpain wrote: »

I love the tears... You aren't changing human nature

Bold of you to claim overall population and tank meta are directly related. I'd wager the overall PvP population now is significantly lower than what it was 5 years ago when the main complaint (years running) was proc damage.

As far as your comments on "sweats" you might wanna read over the 9 billion "nerf ball group" threads full of casual PvPers frustrated by being constantly trolled by nigh-unkillable organized 12-mans running in circles. And don't forget all the "tears" of players of various effort levels who can't handle dying even a single time in a PvP game.

Deleting Mara's Balm wouldn't even change the meta much, just push those players back to using Pariah body pieces or putting Trickery on their back bar, sets they probably have golded out lying in their banks.

You are assuming that everyone in PVP has been doing it for years. There are a TON of players that have just this past few patches taken to PVP. I am in a few discords that have experienced this first hand. There are a lot of OG PVPers still out there but there are a lot that are on the front end of the learning curve that are still wearing the training wheels so to speak.

So the trouble is that anything that ostensibly brings new players or lower skilled players up to a somewhat competitive level is typically capable of being absolutely broken in the hands of players that HAVE been playing for years. I mean, look at the HA builds in PVE; tons of older players that were perfectly capable of running a rotation and pulling decent DPS were switching to the HA builds because they were just simpler, and often doing them better than the ones the builds were intended for.

Short of a handicap being applied so new players can perform better (which I absolutely do not want) the only real option is to take your lumps and learn through doing without those training wheels.

Shepoffire

You can tell who the people are that started last year. Mara's is still going to be pretty good. Stop crying over nerfs. At least they didn't completely bury it

bachpain

So the trouble is that anything that ostensibly brings new players or lower skilled players up to a somewhat competitive level is typically capable of being absolutely broken in the hands of players that HAVE been playing for years. I mean, look at the HA builds in PVE; tons of older players that were perfectly capable of running a rotation and pulling decent DPS were switching to the HA builds because they were just simpler, and often doing them better than the ones the builds were intended for.

Short of a handicap being applied so new players can perform better (which I absolutely do not want) the only real option is to take your lumps and learn through doing without those training wheels.

I don't disagree with this at all and honestly have no answer for it. I just hope people are able to do this rather than run from PVP. Only time will tell.

For those of you saying that Mara's is still "strong" and even "the strongest defensive set" please elaborate. The set now has a 5 piece that will do nothing for 30 seconds. If you live that long you will get a single heal unless you are in a niche situation like playing a warden with the netch constantly removing effects or on another class with a consistent cleanse in which it will still be useful. But the classes with no cleanse this set seems all but strong now to me.

ketsparrowhawk

6 stars next to your name. This should not come as a surprise to you. Anything that is popular will get "adjusted" eventually in this game. No sense getting mad about it.

huskandhunger

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don’t care about the set.

I’m not going to debate if it was OP or not.

I’m so unhappy that, you- ZOS, have absolutely destroyed yet another set many people have sitting golded-out… And now it’s yet another useless set that will never see an efficient use case again.

Just change the set entirely on the 5pc or something. Have mercy someone on a non purge class actually have access to an efficient purge (you could have just removed the hot/burst/ or all heals).

hi ^_^ to gain a purge look into Curse Eater, it has an 8 second cooldown, or look into Wyrd Tree which has a 15 seconds cooldown

Luth7

bachpain wrote: »

The set now has a 5 piece that will do nothing for 30 seconds.

There is still the potential one heal per second from debuffs being renewed or expiring on you (or when they get cleansed manually ofc), so a bit more than nothing.

TechMaybeHic

huskandhunger wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don’t care about the set.

I’m not going to debate if it was OP or not.

I’m so unhappy that, you- ZOS, have absolutely destroyed yet another set many people have sitting golded-out… And now it’s yet another useless set that will never see an efficient use case again.

Just change the set entirely on the 5pc or something. Have mercy someone on a non purge class actually have access to an efficient purge (you could have just removed the hot/burst/ or all heals).

hi ^_^ to gain a purge look into Curse Eater, it has an 8 second cooldown, or look into Wyrd Tree which has a 15 seconds cooldown

Seems Maras still a better trade off defensively. 3 effects removed, recovery in 1 set. Only all effects removed every 15 for the other, nothing more. Maras,you still get effectively a stacked HOT, a little armor, a little crit resist, and then a burst heal to go along with the all effects.

That's why the others often are considered maybe a healer set

I wo say I think it could have been changed to do less rather than a longer cool down

React

bachpain wrote: »

So the trouble is that anything that ostensibly brings new players or lower skilled players up to a somewhat competitive level is typically capable of being absolutely broken in the hands of players that HAVE been playing for years. I mean, look at the HA builds in PVE; tons of older players that were perfectly capable of running a rotation and pulling decent DPS were switching to the HA builds because they were just simpler, and often doing them better than the ones the builds were intended for.

Short of a handicap being applied so new players can perform better (which I absolutely do not want) the only real option is to take your lumps and learn through doing without those training wheels.

I don't disagree with this at all and honestly have no answer for it. I just hope people are able to do this rather than run from PVP. Only time will tell.

For those of you saying that Mara's is still "strong" and even "the strongest defensive set" please elaborate. The set now has a 5 piece that will do nothing for 30 seconds. If you live that long you will get a single heal unless you are in a niche situation like playing a warden with the netch constantly removing effects or on another class with a consistent cleanse in which it will still be useful. But the classes with no cleanse this set seems all but strong now to me.

You clearly do not understand how the set works. You don't need to purge effects to proc the 1k heal portion, an effect simply needs to expire on you or be refreshed. When you are being hit by multiple people this will proc every second.

It is still the strongest defensive set because in addition to that steady heal which every class can take advantage of, you still get your full purge and burst heal every 30 seconds. I'm seeing 15k maras procs while outnumbered on live - that number isn't going to decrease.

Wuuffyy

Afterip wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don’t care about the set.

I’m not going to debate if it was OP or not.

I’m so unhappy that, you- ZOS, have absolutely destroyed yet another set many people have sitting golded-out… And now it’s yet another useless set that will never see an efficient use case again.

Just change the set entirely on the 5pc or something. Have mercy someone on a non purge class actually have access to an efficient purge (you could have just removed the hot/burst/ or all heals).

Dk cryin abot Mara's nerf?! Wow, its extra RARE TEARS, i should keep it.

I very much dislike the state of balance on DK right now and steer away from it for all but a BOMBER out of all things.

Wuuffyy

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

6 stars next to your name. This should not come as a surprise to you. Anything that is popular will get "adjusted" eventually in this game. No sense getting mad about it.

It’s not. But it’s finally a set, that in the right state, could have accomplished a very important goal.

If anything, I made this post as a culmination of all that came before (and how it pans out going forward).

Wuuffyy

Afterip wrote: »

Wuuffyy wrote: »

I don’t care about the set.

I’m not going to debate if it was OP or not.

I’m so unhappy that, you- ZOS, have absolutely destroyed yet another set many people have sitting golded-out… And now it’s yet another useless set that will never see an efficient use case again.

Just change the set entirely on the 5pc or something. Have mercy someone on a non purge class actually have access to an efficient purge (you could have just removed the hot/burst/ or all heals).

Dk cryin abot Mara's nerf?! Wow, its extra RARE TEARS, i should keep it.

Also, really quick follow-up: if anything, this is yet another indirect buff to DK (the dot class).

Woodenplank

I think Mara's Balm will be just fine, even post-nerf. I mean, compare it to e.g. Juggernaut

• 2 items: Adds 28-1206 Maximum Health
• 3 items: Adds 34-1487 Armor
• 4 items: Adds 28-1206 Maximum Health
• 5 items: When you take damage while under 30% Health, heal for 4428 Health immediately and gain 465-20000 Armor for 15 seconds. This effect can occur once every 1 minute and the heal scales off your Max Health.

And an average ~30k health player is only going to get upwards of 9k healing from that proc. Since Mara's Balm is always going to purge at least 6 effects, that's 6x1675 = 10050 healing guaranteed. And while Juggernaut has a nifty armor bonus for a while; there's no purge, and you're gonna be left with all the debuffs and DotS that brought you to 30% HP, still active.
And the cooldown of Juggernaut is twice what Mara's will be, even after this 2nd nerf.
... And Mara's will also comfortably heal you 1k everytime a DoT/Debuff is expired or reapplied!

Maybe something like Pariah or 'Trickery will be more competitve with Mara's now, but they're still going to lag behind.

I understand the anger in this thread, of course. The "enjoy it before it gets nerfed" style of ESO itemization is deeply embittering, and I would almost always rather have alternatives buffed, rather than top tiers nerfed.
But you can't keep buffing everything over and over. And sometimes a set or Mythic (*cough* original Oakensoul *cough*) is so out of line that a nerf is the only practical option left to devs.