Werewolf light and heavy attack range in Update 38

Panderbander

I feel like I'm making a post like this every PTS cycle: Werewolves are getting further powercrept. This time, it's in the loss of unique light and heavy attack range.

Prior to this patch, werewolves and DKs were the only two things in the game that had a 7 meter range on their light and heavy attacks. Now, everyone will have that. DK was compensated in the form of health recovery (Not saying it's good, just saying they got something). Werewolves are getting nothing.

Will we be seeing anything to make up for this loss of unique benefits? Are there any unique benefits werewolf has that won't inexplicably be given away to everyone else in the future? @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin can you guys check in on this? It's really disheartening to see so many things like this happen while the devs seem to forget that there is a small part of the player base that ONLY plays this game for werewolf.

IncultaWolf

Yeah, unfortunately werewolf gets powercrept almost every patch. For example, minor courage use to be a fairly rare buff to come by, but now it's common with having several sets that source it, and now with arcanist giving group minor courage, it would be nice to have some unique features again, since over the years things have been removed, such as the unique armor buff, which wasn't the issue, the issue was alessian order not having a cap/health recovery. I'd still like them to make the burst heal, also heal a nearby allied werewolf, it would promote playing with other werewolves, which is what zos wants to encourage anyway, if the call of the pack passive is anything to go by. Hircine's rage morph needs to scale off max stats/weapon damage also, so you're not forced to play 40k+ hp builds in pvp just to stay alive. In very optimized group content, having a werewolf in your group is usually a detriment.

Erickson9610

How were werewolves forgotten about when this change was made? If dragonknights received compensation for this change, then I think werewolves should, too -- even if werewolves received the same amount of health recovery.

Hotdog_23

Not disagreeing, but the health recovery the DK got is near useless in most scenarios. Why not still give us 2-meter extension and make WW and Dk's 9 meters. I jest, obviously, but it would have been nice.

Stay safe

Panderbander

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Not disagreeing, but the health recovery the DK got is near useless in most scenarios. Why not still give us 2-meter extension and make WW and Dk's 9 meters. I jest, obviously, but it would have been nice.

Stay safe

Yeah not saying the health recovery is even worth the skill points but it at least shows that they considered DKs when they made this change. They conveniently forgot werewolves existed with a similar unique benefit altogether.

Howda

Dk was buffed before hand with all that major berserk. So now after making the class unique buffs like heavy attacks and 7m range removed, no one complains as DKs have other trademarks.

I am just still dreading for the wings nerfs many years ago. Reflect was such a fun mechanic and should've stayed as DKs identity

Tommy_The_Gun

They should make some compensation buff. Like 9 meters of something (but then again it may look funny).

I simply wish that Werewolf in ESO was not super "clunky" and the gameplay to be more fluid. What I am about to say may sound weird, but WW rotation in ESO, despite having only one bar feels kinda awkward. The skills costing more also do not help the situation. Very often I find myself just heavy attacking too often than it is necessary. WW has access to Empower, so my solo rotation is like this:
- Jump near the enemy (Pounce).
- Fear to reduce armour.
- Claws for DoT.
- Roar & self synergy to get Empower (can be close to impossible if there are corpses on the ground as this is the prioritized synergy).
- Heavy attack with Empower buff (it is too short, so I have to HA right away). Also WW's HA animation feels like it takes 2 years to finish... slooowmotion...
- Jump again in place with Ponce (looks funny, almost like a "Mario Jump", even the sound effect would fit) since the execute timer run out and in order to activate this I have to use the skill again.

Overall WW is already a niche spec and I kinda think that it is only half decent spec for solo-ing content. But even today I think I could just use Oakensoul to have pretty much same buffs as WW has and I would at least have access to weapon skills. I could also slot pvp Flare skill to mimic pack leader damage reduction passive. Now that I think of it, WW does not have any clear benefit. In Skyrim at least WW visual model looked cool & bad-as.

Jaraal

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

They should make some compensation buff.

Minor Brutality or Major Protection would be nice. Or let us use weapon passives, like everybody else.

Werewolf hasn't gotten anything significant in years. Just nerfs.

Xarc

7 meters range for Light and Heavy attack in melee is totally absurd

QuintusVaLari

Almost every major patch since i started playing has come with direct or indirect nerfs to WW.
If we're going to maintain the downsides of WW form, it would be nice to have positive upsides to compensate.
In the last year and a half WW's have received:
-Heavy attack damage nerf
-No Heavy attack resource return increase (every other heavy attack received this)
-Our 'unique' buffs being freely granted to other items and skills.
-Several nerfs to skills both damage and healing
-Aforementioned power-creep nerfs with every other playstyle getting more and more buffs and maintaining free access to immovability, build-diversity in skills, etc.
-Gave a good mythic, then gutted it for WW's while maintaining FAR more strength for non-WWs by adjusting it so 80% of the buffs it provides don't affect WWs (Oakensoul)
-VERY few buffs to compensate. (buffed shapeshifters chain which is still underpowered compared to other mythics, but at least it's usable? HR granting a very conditional timed buff with more downsides, etc)

Just a little adjustment in the positive direction once in a while would be nice. At this point, I dread every patch because It usually comes with more bad news for my favorite way to play ESO.

Panderbander

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that either they don't care or they intentionally excluded werewolf when making reparations for abilities being given away. I hardly log into this game anymore, I cancelled my ESO+ months ago, and I'm seeing similar sentiment from every single werewolf player I associate with all because of little nicks and jabs like this change. It is truly a disheartening.

IncultaWolf

Panderbander wrote: »

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that either they don't care or they intentionally excluded werewolf when making reparations for abilities being given away. I hardly log into this game anymore, I cancelled my ESO+ months ago, and I'm seeing similar sentiment from every single werewolf player I associate with all because of little nicks and jabs like this change. It is truly a disheartening.

It really is sad to see. There's potential to make this playstyle more enjoyable, there's a lot of things I and others have suggested in other threads as well, it's like templar and necromancer mains begging for buffs for several patches now, it would be nice if the devs at least acknowledged the people who play this and receive feedback.

Stx

I really want the werewolf spammable to be a claw attack and not some sonic breath missile. They could even buff it a little to compensate and I think the PvP whiners would still be okay with it.

Erickson9610

Stx wrote: »

I really want the werewolf spammable to be a claw attack and not some sonic breath missile. They could even buff it a little to compensate and I think the PvP whiners would still be okay with it.

I honestly think that Piercing Howl and its morphs were originally meant to be biting attacks. It makes no sense that the main werewolf spammable counts as a projectile of all things, when they are thematically a melee brawler subclass.

I think that Piercing Howl and its morphs should be reworked to look more like proper biting attacks, rather than another claw attack, since werewolves have Carnage and its morphs, Infectious Claws and its morphs, and their light and heavy attacks as well.

Stx

Sure a bite works too, any sort of melee strike.

Jaraal

Why not let werewolves have their own sub-ultimate that they can build while fighting? Maybe some sort of AOE spinning swipe attack like Taz, lol. And if ZOS is so dead set against us building regular werewolf ulti while in form, let the in-form ultimate expire upon losing transformation.

Xarc

I agree we need some rework about skills

I really want the werewolf spammable to be a claw attack and not some sonic breath missile

1) Spammable should be light and heavy attacks mega buffed

2) a sub-ultimate would be interesting about biting ennemies for ex.

Jusey1

I just want Hircine's Bounty to have a stamina morph of some kind at the very least. Ever since I gotten Oakensoul for my main, his werewolf form is completely useless since all the passives are already freely given to me and I have way much better sustain options outside of it because of my main being a stamina build. Only having two usages of Hircine's Bounty before magicka needs to regen is just horrible.

Wuuffyy

All of this is what *should* happen, but it’s not meta and people quite literally think it’s super OP who have never played it either.

So, lol. Probably not happening. Here I come D**** 4!

SirLeeMinion

WW is OP in below 50 battlegrounds, and that's it. Everywhere else, it ranges from "worse" to "much much worse" than a normal build.

The pounce skill is super clunky; overloading it with a timer locking out the gap closer was a terrible decision.

Adding a self-activated empower synergy that can only be taken after you eat every nearby corpse and arena sigil was sheer folly. It should have just been auto-applied.

The heavy attack wind-up is way too long for any content, and the morph that speeds up heavy attacks does not do so for the first heavy attack (nor does it seem to help with hvy+skill, hvy+skill - not sure on this though).

In short, the role of WW seems to gone from, "sell a new product" years ago to, "RP in the house we'll sell you".

Pathetic.

Wuuffyy

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

WW is OP in below 50 battlegrounds, and that's it. Everywhere else, it ranges from "worse" to "much much worse" than a normal build.

The pounce skill is super clunky; overloading it with a timer locking out the gap closer was a terrible decision.

Adding a self-activated empower synergy that can only be taken after you eat every nearby corpse and arena sigil was sheer folly. It should have just been auto-applied.

The heavy attack wind-up is way too long for any content, and the morph that speeds up heavy attacks does not do so for the first heavy attack (nor does it seem to help with hvy+skill, hvy+skill - not sure on this though).

In short, the role of WW seems to gone from, "sell a new product" years ago to, "RP in the house we'll sell you".

Pathetic.

OP in below anything or duels is just an excuse in my opinion. I personally see 10s of 100s of specs that are even more efficient than that.

Panderbander

Werewolf has been so incredibly power crept and ignored over the years that it's in the worst position I've seen it yet. Literally everything is better than it at this point if only because even underperforming classes can just fall back on decent weapon, world, and guild skill lines.

As it stands we have incredibly low survivability, atrocious sustain, pressure that's middling at best when equipped with a full damage set up, and exactly zero burst without the use of sets that we can't really capitalize on. The only way people are dying to werewolves at this point is by not paying attention, and the only way they're failing to kill them is via not using abilities (because you only get 2-3 casts of the heal before you're dead on the water with no way to regen Magicka).

IncultaWolf

Panderbander wrote: »

Werewolf has been so incredibly power crept and ignored over the years that it's in the worst position I've seen it yet. Literally everything is better than it at this point if only because even underperforming classes can just fall back on decent weapon, world, and guild skill lines.

As it stands we have incredibly low survivability, atrocious sustain, pressure that's middling at best when equipped with a full damage set up, and exactly zero burst without the use of sets that we can't really capitalize on. The only way people are dying to werewolves at this point is by not paying attention, and the only way they're failing to kill them is via not using abilities (because you only get 2-3 casts of the heal before you're dead on the water with no way to regen Magicka).

You're honestly just roleplaying at this point if you continue to play werewolf in pvp, it's so bad compared to a real build

Tommy_The_Gun

IncultaWolf wrote: »

You're honestly just roleplaying at this point if you continue to play werewolf in pvp, it's so bad compared to a real build

Yeah, WW used to be my "oh snap" button in PvP, as I could do actually something as a WW and my opponent would need to adjust his/her tactics & actions when I transformed. It was still easy to beat a WW, but at least it was a viable play style / mini class.

Nowadays when you transform into WW in PvP (Cyro or even BGs) you are essentially a "free kill". Sure, if you want some extra challenge in PvP... like if you are one those people who beat Dark Souls an a Dance Pad, then I can see a point. WW is kinda like a form of "handicap" setting. If you want stuff to be more difficult - then do stuff as a WW.

IncultaWolf

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

You're honestly just roleplaying at this point if you continue to play werewolf in pvp, it's so bad compared to a real build

Yeah, WW used to be my "oh snap" button in PvP, as I could do actually something as a WW and my opponent would need to adjust his/her tactics & actions when I transformed. It was still easy to beat a WW, but at least it was a viable play style / mini class.

Nowadays when you transform into WW in PvP (Cyro or even BGs) you are essentially a "free kill". Sure, if you want some extra challenge in PvP... like if you are one those people who beat Dark Souls an a Dance Pad, then I can see a point. WW is kinda like a form of "handicap" setting. If you want stuff to be more difficult - then do stuff as a WW.

So true! When I group up with some of my friends in pvp and we come across a werewolf, they're always like "free AP!" or "go after the werewolf first" because they know it's going to be an easy kill, and it usually is lol. I played mostly werewolf for 3 years, but slowly got into playing other classes and builds, and when I play my warden now it's like 3x better than the min/max meta builds I would make for ww in pvp. Werewolf "use" to be really good overall, but those days are long gone. They are incredibly weak in both pve and pvp now.

Jammy420

It genuinely feels like there is someone at ZoS who hates anything deemed evil by the plebians in Nirn. WW has been hurting for a while, and their dots should have honestly gotten a mega buff last year.

Jammy420

Xarc wrote: »

7 meters range for Light and Heavy attack in melee is totally absurd

Its necessary because this game has notoriously bad syncing issues.

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

IncultaWolf wrote: »

You're honestly just roleplaying at this point if you continue to play werewolf in pvp, it's so bad compared to a real build

Yeah, WW used to be my "oh snap" button in PvP, as I could do actually something as a WW and my opponent would need to adjust his/her tactics & actions when I transformed. It was still easy to beat a WW, but at least it was a viable play style / mini class.

Nowadays when you transform into WW in PvP (Cyro or even BGs) you are essentially a "free kill". Sure, if you want some extra challenge in PvP... like if you are one those people who beat Dark Souls an a Dance Pad, then I can see a point. WW is kinda like a form of "handicap" setting. If you want stuff to be more difficult - then do stuff as a WW.

At this point I just use werewolf as an execute ulti kind of, applying major defile and getting berserk to apply that last bit of pressure. But that is all it is, extra pressure, far less than it should be.

ChubaNinja

I think removing light attack cap on WW would help its dps a good bit, but apart from that I haven't played 1 in years so idk really lol

sneakymitchell

Should give a buff to werewolf pounce execution. Have it do more damage. Like you can only have one bar as a werewolf. I don’t understand Zos logic when okansoul can outperform a werewolf.

logan68

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

They should make some compensation buff. Like 9 meters of something (but then again it may look funny).

I simply wish that Werewolf in ESO was not super "clunky" and the gameplay to be more fluid. What I am about to say may sound weird, but WW rotation in ESO, despite having only one bar feels kinda awkward. The skills costing more also do not help the situation. Very often I find myself just heavy attacking too often than it is necessary. WW has access to Empower, so my solo rotation is like this:
- Jump near the enemy (Pounce).
- Fear to reduce armour.
- Claws for DoT.
- Roar & self synergy to get Empower (can be close to impossible if there are corpses on the ground as this is the prioritized synergy).
- Heavy attack with Empower buff (it is too short, so I have to HA right away). Also WW's HA animation feels like it takes 2 years to finish... slooowmotion...
- Jump again in place with Ponce (looks funny, almost like a "Mario Jump", even the sound effect would fit) since the execute timer run out and in order to activate this I have to use the skill again.

Overall WW is already a niche spec and I kinda think that it is only half decent spec for solo-ing content. But even today I think I could just use Oakensoul to have pretty much same buffs as WW has and I would at least have access to weapon skills. I could also slot pvp Flare skill to mimic pack leader damage reduction passive. Now that I think of it, WW does not have any clear benefit. In Skyrim at least WW visual model looked cool & bad-as.

at least you guys have some semblance of a rotation us vamps got nothing

Panderbander

logan68 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

They should make some compensation buff. Like 9 meters of something (but then again it may look funny).

I simply wish that Werewolf in ESO was not super "clunky" and the gameplay to be more fluid. What I am about to say may sound weird, but WW rotation in ESO, despite having only one bar feels kinda awkward. The skills costing more also do not help the situation. Very often I find myself just heavy attacking too often than it is necessary. WW has access to Empower, so my solo rotation is like this:
- Jump near the enemy (Pounce).
- Fear to reduce armour.
- Claws for DoT.
- Roar & self synergy to get Empower (can be close to impossible if there are corpses on the ground as this is the prioritized synergy).
- Heavy attack with Empower buff (it is too short, so I have to HA right away). Also WW's HA animation feels like it takes 2 years to finish... slooowmotion...
- Jump again in place with Ponce (looks funny, almost like a "Mario Jump", even the sound effect would fit) since the execute timer run out and in order to activate this I have to use the skill again.

Overall WW is already a niche spec and I kinda think that it is only half decent spec for solo-ing content. But even today I think I could just use Oakensoul to have pretty much same buffs as WW has and I would at least have access to weapon skills. I could also slot pvp Flare skill to mimic pack leader damage reduction passive. Now that I think of it, WW does not have any clear benefit. In Skyrim at least WW visual model looked cool & bad-as.

at least you guys have some semblance of a rotation us vamps got nothing

Vamp definitely needs a rework to make it compelling to play *as a vamp*, but at least vampire has access to every other skill and passive in the game.

Werewolf gets access to armor passive, a few class passives (depending on the class), racial passives, and exactly two different weapon passives. That's it, no (other) world skill lines, no guild skill lines, essentially no weapon passives, and most class passives are unable to be active as a werewolf because we can't slot any abilities other than werewolf ones. This is partially why Burning Light being changed to proccing off any damage was such a big deal for werewolves since it finally gave us access to a passive that was previously locked behind using a class ability.

Thematically it makes sense that a werewolf can't use class, world, or guild abilities because they are literally transformed beasts, but in practice it makes it so we have little customization, flexibility, or even real identity from one class to another and severely impairs our ability to keep up with other classes when buffs or changes are made to passives or abilities we're locked out of.

+18% WD, +30% stamina, +15% stamina recovery (our only unique benefits) don't matter much when our abilities are scaled such that at those inflated numbers our damage is the same or less than a base class can output with lower stats and the costs of our abilities are significantly more (+30% or more compared to comparable "normal" abilities) than those with similar or stronger effects in the class kit.

As a great example of this disparity between base class abilities and werewolf equivalents look at the warden heal Polar Wind: it is an HP scaling heal similar to Hircine's Rage and Fortitude but unlike them it costs less, heals for more overall (by like... A LOT), applies a heal over time (something werewolf has no proper access to), and benefits the group by hitting a second target with both the burst heal and the heal over time. The tooltip for Hircine's Fortitude is 8002; the base tooltip for Polar Wind is 11103 healing (including the heal over time) before health scaling. Hircine's Fortitude costs 5737 Magicka at base; Polar Wind costs 4320 Magicka.

Ultimately this is all an aside and not directly relevant to the issue at hand in this thread: the loss of yet another unique benefit werewolves had without recompense in the form of the light and heavy attacks range. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin can we please get some sort of indication that the dev team hasn't just forgotten about us or an explanation for why it's felt that werewolf needs to further lose its identity?