Why HA builds are so important to disabled people

Galeriano

nokturnihs wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

Whorl, relequen and pillar of nirn are also meta and over-performing as is apparent as at least one of these sets is in most of the DPS builds you see out there... So it's fine if they receive a 10-20% nerf too right?

And it's not on par it's still under a 2 bar. It was before and will be more after.

But again, it wasn't a 10-20% nerf. It's a 6% nerf. That's it. Stop hyperbolizing it.

I still doubt that math on a parse. I've seen multiple parse screenies "showing" it's only a 6% drop but the math doesn't work and most of those parses are showing evidence of some pretty off-topic material... No sign of Sergeant's or storm master in the buff but minor aegis and warhorn and other nonsense. Nevertheless, my question is still unanswered. It should be fine by previous logic to nerf (by 6-10%) other meta sets that are over-performing like relequen, whorl, pillar right?

Bring an average one bar heavy attack user and an average two bar relequen/whorl, pillar user and see who will do more damage in real content. Fact that relequen, pillar or whorl are used in top parses performed by top players doesn't mean average player using them will be doing more damage than average one bar heavy attack user.

Also You do realise that all sets You've mentioned are meta right now because they replaced other meta sets some of which were nerfed or lost their value with time?

Galeriano

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nokturnihs wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The nerfs, in tandem, took a Sergeant's Mail/Storm Master's/Oakensoul HA build from 91k on live to 87k on PTS. That's only a reduction of about 6%. In reality, the nerf will be even less impactful than that. Firstly, PTS parses are lower than they should be due to missing passives. Secondly, if you were already not maxing the "potential" damage of the build, the nerf will affect you even less.

Rest assured, the exact same build will be just as effective as before. The nerf hasn't touched the accessibility of the build, only the max potential.

I'm not sure those numbers are gonna be accurate with uptime issues and parses aren't real in-game performance. When you're targets move, etc what's a minor impact for some is a HUGE difference for someone who's low APM because it's all their body allows them to be. Sorry to say I'm not feeling assured at all.

More importantly - the why of it? What was the point? It's STILL underperforming against the top end builds... Why make it perform less?

Because not everyone is a top end player. It may be underperforming against top two bar players but it's definietly overperforming right now against average two bar players.

Arawin

posted in wrong post

AScarlato

I am not disabled but emphasize with those that are. I do fear and occasionally suffer from repetitive hand motion issues. I am getting older and already in a career that requires typing 10 hours a day. This impacts the games I am willing to play in my free time.

Take path of exile. Excessive clicking that is pointless is a large issue for that community and it comes up regularly as a topic. “Piano key” potions is a reason I no longer play though I understand they tried to address this.

Ffxiv has auto attacks for basic attacks like EverQuest did. So my focus is positioning and choosing skills. Diablo 3 is just holding your right mouse button on most builds and occasionally using buffs or other skills here and there. If I had to click every attack I wouldn’t play it.

As I said in another thread, I farmed these sets just last week meaning I spent all my free game time running those two boring dungeons until RNG blessed me with the pieces. At first I thought I’d be bored, but then I realized how bored I was with all my 2 bar builds that all actually also play exactly the same ( buff, put down dots, piano key back bar then front bar and maybe have a Spammable for a few seconds until you mindlessly repeat to keep buffs and dots up). So this I invested months of resource gathering to improve this gear. So yes I’m angry as this isn’t the first time this happened to me in this game and I’m not the first player to be annoyed at having the devs pull the rug out from them after investing in a set.

I’m not even using this on a sorc so I don’t feel whatever they have that supposedly makes this all powerful and too good in some players eyes.

Ps - maybe this is only for sorc spec but my build on nightblade has 19 to 20k resists, not 25k, and way under 30k hp so I have no idea where these numbers are coming from.

CameraBeardThePirate

maxjapank wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

Whorl, relequen and pillar of nirn are also meta and over-performing as is apparent as at least one of these sets is in most of the DPS builds you see out there... So it's fine if they receive a 10-20% nerf too right?

And it's not on par it's still under a 2 bar. It was before and will be more after.

But again, it wasn't a 10-20% nerf. It's a 6% nerf. That's it. Stop hyperbolizing it.

You've been consistently all over these forums trying to nerf heavy attack builds or trying to justify nerfs. I think you just don't understand what the op is talking about in regard to disabilities because you have either never experienced such or are just not old enough to understand. The op has a real dilemma. So while you may disagree for whatever reason, please try to express a little more care for something that is extremely difficult for another human being.

First of all, you're pulling the idea that I'm trying to nerf HA builds out of thin air. I'm not; in fact, I use them exclusively as I'm a PvPer by nature.

I'm trying to show that there is no reason for OP to worry because they will not be affected by this nerf, as the math shows. Period. There's no big conspiracy against HA users. I'm not trying to nerf anything.

CameraBeardThePirate

nokturnihs wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

Whorl, relequen and pillar of nirn are also meta and over-performing as is apparent as at least one of these sets is in most of the DPS builds you see out there... So it's fine if they receive a 10-20% nerf too right?

And it's not on par it's still under a 2 bar. It was before and will be more after.

But again, it wasn't a 10-20% nerf. It's a 6% nerf. That's it. Stop hyperbolizing it.

I still doubt that math on a parse. I've seen multiple parse screenies "showing" it's only a 6% drop but the math doesn't work and most of those parses are showing evidence of some pretty off-topic material... No sign of Sergeant's or storm master in the buff but minor aegis and warhorn and other nonsense. Nevertheless, my question is still unanswered. It should be fine by previous logic to nerf (by 6-10%) other meta sets that are over-performing like relequen, whorl, pillar right?

The math does work out though - that's the beauty of math. You can check my post on it to see the breakdown of all the numbers. All that "nonsense" like Aegis, etc. are all the buffs given to every parse on the iron atronach dummy. All parses have these buffs for standardization purposes.

Sergeants Mail and Storm Master don't show up on stat sheets in the damage section because there's nothing they add to show. They increase the damage of your heavy attacks but do not add an instance of damage themselves. They'll show up in the buff section, but there are so many buffs there that you'd have to scroll through them.

Tannus15

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

Whorl, relequen and pillar of nirn are also meta and over-performing as is apparent as at least one of these sets is in most of the DPS builds you see out there... So it's fine if they receive a 10-20% nerf too right?

And it's not on par it's still under a 2 bar. It was before and will be more after.

But again, it wasn't a 10-20% nerf. It's a 6% nerf. That's it. Stop hyperbolizing it.

I still doubt that math on a parse. I've seen multiple parse screenies "showing" it's only a 6% drop but the math doesn't work and most of those parses are showing evidence of some pretty off-topic material... No sign of Sergeant's or storm master in the buff but minor aegis and warhorn and other nonsense. Nevertheless, my question is still unanswered. It should be fine by previous logic to nerf (by 6-10%) other meta sets that are over-performing like relequen, whorl, pillar right?

The math does work out though - that's the beauty of math. You can check my post on it to see the breakdown of all the numbers. All that "nonsense" like Aegis, etc. are all the buffs given to every parse on the iron atronach dummy. All parses have these buffs for standardization purposes.

Sergeants Mail and Storm Master don't show up on stat sheets in the damage section because there's nothing they add to show. They increase the damage of your heavy attacks but do not add an instance of damage themselves. They'll show up in the buff section, but there are so many buffs there that you'd have to scroll through them.

you can "favourite" buffs so they show up at the top of the cmx for easy tracking of important buffs.

awesome work by everyone crunching the numbers and testing on the PTS

FrancisCrawford

Jaimeh wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I have mentioned things like cooperation, communication, situational awareness, reflexes, strategic and tactical thinking, mechanics, etc. Not only do all of those things fall to the wayside compared to button smashing, but button smashing actually negates them! The more buttons you can smash, the less communication your group needs to engage in. The more buttons you can smash, the less you need to think. The more buttons you can smash, the less situational awareness you need. The more buttons you can smash, the more you can ignore mechanics. And so on.

On the flip side, Oakensoul also negates many of the things you mentioned; it offers so much mitigation that players are just standing in the AoE's weathering mechanics instead of playing them, which is exactly the opposite from the spirit of the things you stated above. Something with that much mitigation has to be tuned down, and the nerf is not so much that it will bar anyone from content, it's just an effort to reign it in and bring it line. It's a good thing to have more people in vet content, it will keep the vet community vibrant, and it's a good thing for disabled people to be able to complete challenges they couldn't before, but it's a bad thing when able players co-opt an issue for their agenda and dps problems, and I feel that's what has been happening.

I recently started playing Oakensorc, and I'm dying a lot in certain fights duoing NORMAL content. Now, that's with nobody tanking the boss, and with light armor for my second set, which seems optimal in theory when there's no risk of overpenetration, no Warhorn, etc. But I may be reasonably representative of a large subset of players.

So this supposedly excessive mitigation doesn't seem so excessive to me.

CameraBeardThePirate

AScarlato wrote: »

I am not disabled but emphasize with those that are. I do fear and occasionally suffer from repetitive hand motion issues. I am getting older and already in a career that requires typing 10 hours a day. This impacts the games I am willing to play in my free time.

Take path of exile. Excessive clicking that is pointless is a large issue for that community and it comes up regularly as a topic. “Piano key” potions is a reason I no longer play though I understand they tried to address this.

Ffxiv has auto attacks for basic attacks like EverQuest did. So my focus is positioning and choosing skills. Diablo 3 is just holding your right mouse button on most builds and occasionally using buffs or other skills here and there. If I had to click every attack I wouldn’t play it.

As I said in another thread, I farmed these sets just last week meaning I spent all my free game time running those two boring dungeons until RNG blessed me with the pieces. At first I thought I’d be bored, but then I realized how bored I was with all my 2 bar builds that all actually also play exactly the same ( buff, put down dots, piano key back bar then front bar and maybe have a Spammable for a few seconds until you mindlessly repeat to keep buffs and dots up). So this I invested months of resource gathering to improve this gear. So yes I’m angry as this isn’t the first time this happened to me in this game and I’m not the first player to be annoyed at having the devs pull the rug out from them after investing in a set.

I’m not even using this on a sorc so I don’t feel whatever they have that supposedly makes this all powerful and too good in some players eyes.

Ps - maybe this is only for sorc spec but my build on nightblade has 19 to 20k resists, not 25k, and way under 30k hp so I have no idea where these numbers are coming from.

But again, the rug hasn't been pulled out from under you. A 6% nerf to damage overall will hardly be noticeable - and you didn't "waste" any of those mats. Will Storm Master's be BiS? Probably not, but it'll still be really strong, strong enough that you can take your time farming a replacement (or simply not replace the set at all)

AScarlato

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

AScarlato wrote: »

I am not disabled but emphasize with those that are. I do fear and occasionally suffer from repetitive hand motion issues. I am getting older and already in a career that requires typing 10 hours a day. This impacts the games I am willing to play in my free time.

Take path of exile. Excessive clicking that is pointless is a large issue for that community and it comes up regularly as a topic. “Piano key” potions is a reason I no longer play though I understand they tried to address this.

Ffxiv has auto attacks for basic attacks like EverQuest did. So my focus is positioning and choosing skills. Diablo 3 is just holding your right mouse button on most builds and occasionally using buffs or other skills here and there. If I had to click every attack I wouldn’t play it.

As I said in another thread, I farmed these sets just last week meaning I spent all my free game time running those two boring dungeons until RNG blessed me with the pieces. At first I thought I’d be bored, but then I realized how bored I was with all my 2 bar builds that all actually also play exactly the same ( buff, put down dots, piano key back bar then front bar and maybe have a Spammable for a few seconds until you mindlessly repeat to keep buffs and dots up). So this I invested months of resource gathering to improve this gear. So yes I’m angry as this isn’t the first time this happened to me in this game and I’m not the first player to be annoyed at having the devs pull the rug out from them after investing in a set.

I’m not even using this on a sorc so I don’t feel whatever they have that supposedly makes this all powerful and too good in some players eyes.

Ps - maybe this is only for sorc spec but my build on nightblade has 19 to 20k resists, not 25k, and way under 30k hp so I have no idea where these numbers are coming from.

But again, the rug hasn't been pulled out from under you. A 6% nerf to damage overall will hardly be noticeable - and you didn't "waste" any of those mats. Will Storm Master's be BiS? Probably not, but it'll still be really strong, strong enough that you can take your time farming a replacement (or simply not replace the set at all)

I already explained in another thread (that you were also posting in like every thread on this topic) that I was using this in BGs where storm masters was turned off entirely. Saying I’m free to use a set whose 5 piece bonus is turned off is disingenuous. I find this funny as the set already wasn’t great there as you don’t have the safety of ranges in confined spaces or easy HAs due to walls and hiding spots constantly breaking los. Half the time a fully charged HA doesn’t even break shields of the actual PvP builds. But it was fine against non pvpers who are just trying to get the daily xp. Wasn’t great against anyone who knew how to PvP.

I think the disconnect here is impacting a lot of non meta players who couldn’t care less about parses and being at the top of the scorecard. They just want a way to be included. Probably why none of us have been asking for nerfs of various meta sets because we simply don’t care. No one thought this playstyle should top the charts and it doesn’t as is. It’s bizarre that people argue this nerf doesn’t do anything but at the same time are cheering it on.

Some players already view ha players as lessser and don’t want to play with them. This nerf lowering its dps to average will further justify exclusion.

squinquargesimus

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I have mentioned things like cooperation, communication, situational awareness, reflexes, strategic and tactical thinking, mechanics, etc. Not only do all of those things fall to the wayside compared to button smashing, but button smashing actually negates them! The more buttons you can smash, the less communication your group needs to engage in. The more buttons you can smash, the less you need to think. The more buttons you can smash, the less situational awareness you need. The more buttons you can smash, the more you can ignore mechanics. And so on.

On the flip side, Oakensoul also negates many of the things you mentioned; it offers so much mitigation that players are just standing in the AoE's weathering mechanics instead of playing them, which is exactly the opposite from the spirit of the things you stated above. Something with that much mitigation has to be tuned down, and the nerf is not so much that it will bar anyone from content, it's just an effort to reign it in and bring it line. It's a good thing to have more people in vet content, it will keep the vet community vibrant, and it's a good thing for disabled people to be able to complete challenges they couldn't before, but it's a bad thing when able players co-opt an issue for their agenda and dps problems, and I feel that's what has been happening.

I recently started playing Oakensorc, and I'm dying a lot in certain fights duoing NORMAL content. Now, that's with nobody tanking the boss, and with light armor for my second set, which seems optimal in theory when there's no risk of overpenetration, no Warhorn, etc. But I may be reasonably representative of a large subset of players.

So this supposedly excessive mitigation doesn't seem so excessive to me.

I'm inclined to agree. I don't think for a lot of the players that needed HA to shine or do substancially better, the survivability was overtuned -- that seems to be more of a thing for good players switching to HA.

I also don't think there's a conspiracy of abled players co putting Oakensoul/HA. First off all, it's there for anyone who wants it, but also... there are a lot of different things impacting different players? I don't have issues with my hands for example, but I don't have great reaction times and my ADD makes it hard for me to focus on several things at once -- I either usually lose all focus, or can only do One thing, pay attention to the actual fight or pay attention to my bars and dots.

And even if it wasn't ADD, and a less Button mashy combat style is just more fun to people... Isn't that a legitimate reason to keep the style viable and able to do harder content? It's not just gating content behind "skill", it's skill in a combat play style that a significant amount of the player base just doesn't find fun enough to "Git Gud" at.