Why HA builds are so important to disabled people

nokturnihs

Just some things to consider in regards to the storm master and empower nerf:

Those of you without disabilities IMPROVE when you practice your LA or 552 builds by parsing, etc. You can improve your skills and tighten your rotations through effort and repetition.

Disabled folks that try and do the same thing LOSE DPS over time because it costs us (physically) the more time we spend in combat. Our coordination gets worse, the pain builds up and our hands stop responding, our focus gets harder to maintain, etc. We might improve a little bit mostly we just get worse as our playtime grows and we either take breaks or run out of whatever time our bodies give us to play that day. We also don't usually have the luxury of playing every day at length because a lot of us have BAD days where just functioning is about as hard as it gets.

Storm master already provided challenges with uptime for those of us with these issues. Now it's gonna be a lot harder and with empower getting a nerf and storm master getting a nerf it's more than just the 10%. While we can use alternatives like undaunted unweaver or ND, there's problems there too.

Most of the older/disabled people I run with weren't even able to do most vet content outside of -some- basegame vet dungeons because as mentioned above the decline in function makes them inaccessible.

I'm sure there's a bunch of folks asking "well why do disabled people play then?" The answer is simple for me. It's about the only thing I can do to help my condition. It distracts my brain enough through the focus required that while my body allows I get a few hours of distraction that makes my life less miserable. Eventually my body says no and I gotta be done for the day but for that brief period of time I get a slight reprieve being in my head.

Overland content and questing, harvesting isn't really challenging. It's doesn't offer the same kind of focus requirement and it's not very group friendly either. So if I want to play with friends it's content like dungeons, PvP, trials, etc.

Is the nerfs introduced the end of the world? No. But between that, patch notes and the sheer amount of contempt non-HA players have had about HA players, it sure seems like ZOS is trying to carefully walk back oaken soul as fast as they can.

Most disabled people are well aware of the fact they're never gonna be as good as the people without their unique challenges. We've made peace with that. Most of us aren't threatened by those who are better at a particular activity because we're just happy to be able to participate and expand our life experiences a little more. So the complaints about HA builds feel very personal to those of us using them. We already get a lot of flak in real life, we really don't love it in a game.

LunaFlora

yea! i super agree

CameraBeardThePirate

The nerfs, in tandem, took a Sergeant's Mail/Storm Master's/Oakensoul HA build from 91k on live to 87k on PTS. That's only a reduction of about 6%. In reality, the nerf will be even less impactful than that. Firstly, PTS parses are lower than they should be due to missing passives. Secondly, if you were already not maxing the "potential" damage of the build, the nerf will affect you even less.

Rest assured, the exact same build will be just as effective as before. The nerf hasn't touched the accessibility of the build, only the max potential.

Raammzzaa

I agree with you and I’m hoping that the devs will add some more HA focused set alternatives down the road.

nokturnihs

I'll also point out that disabled people already struggle to feel relevant in their daily lives, feel like they are contributing to the world (or in this case a dungeon or trial group). That makes it even more frustrating when you get people saying that oaken builds aren't welcome (to do a trial for example) or shouldn't exist.

sneakymitchell

This seems like a drama that is dumb in its finest must be the pvp players going over to pve since if they play Cyrodiil it’s horrible performance or play the same battlegrounds every day.

nokturnihs

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The nerfs, in tandem, took a Sergeant's Mail/Storm Master's/Oakensoul HA build from 91k on live to 87k on PTS. That's only a reduction of about 6%. In reality, the nerf will be even less impactful than that. Firstly, PTS parses are lower than they should be due to missing passives. Secondly, if you were already not maxing the "potential" damage of the build, the nerf will affect you even less.

Rest assured, the exact same build will be just as effective as before. The nerf hasn't touched the accessibility of the build, only the max potential.

I'm not sure those numbers are gonna be accurate with uptime issues and parses aren't real in-game performance. When you're targets move, etc what's a minor impact for some is a HUGE difference for someone who's low APM because it's all their body allows them to be. Sorry to say I'm not feeling assured at all.

More importantly - the why of it? What was the point? It's STILL underperforming against the top end builds... Why make it perform less?

festegios

What’s your thoughts on the new mythic that almost removes the need to la (other than to proc sets, but you could use sets that don’t require LA procs)

Won’t that help you?

I mean that in no offence or any kind of you shouldn’t use HA builds etc.

DrNukenstein

You can still clear content with your 80k dps taser build. It has nothing to do with putting disabled people down, it has everything to do with pairing high end performance to high end effort and limiting the performance of builds that trivialize the game.

Can we please stop tying this argument to being about disabled people. If it really were for disabled people the stuff for it would be in a chest found during the tutorial. It would include a disclaimer like:

"We at Zenimax Microsoft online studios value and respect all players. So we have included this option for a simplified gameplay experience that you can choose to make use of should your personal limitations make it necessary."

Instead it is locked behind the antiquities system and requires access to particular dlc. I wouldn't consider myself severely disabled but I have a very hard time navigating or grinding the antiquities system and I'm sure a lot of players disabled or not do too.

BaalMelqartu

This post has already been made multiple times, same background/context so I really don't have much else to add that I haven't already said in the other posts, but I don't disagree with OP. Heavy attack builds are also a boon to players with poor internet connection, like myself. I hope they keep Heavy Attack builds viable as well. This last nerf was so small for PVE players, that I accepted it with little issue. EVERY playstyle gets nerf/balance changes at some time or other, including ours. We don't get to be exempt from that.

As for the "why" of it: again, every playstyle receives periodic nerfs and/or buffs. The "why" of it is always balance concerns. You may not AGREE with the company's notions of what needs nerfing or buffing but nobody agrees with everyone all the time.

CameraBeardThePirate

nokturnihs wrote: »

I'm not sure those numbers are gonna be accurate with uptime issues and parses aren't real in-game performance. When you're targets move, etc what's a minor impact for some is a HUGE difference for someone who's low APM because it's all their body allows them to be.

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Secondly, if you were already not maxing the "potential" damage of the build, the nerf will affect you even less.

You seemed to ignore this point. The nerf was a percentage based nerf. That means players at the top will be affected more than players at the bottom - that's just how math works. A percent of a bigger number is bigger than the same percent of a smaller number. If you're not able to hit those super high numbers, you won't be affected by this nerf as much as those who are able to hit those high numbers. 6% of 90k is a lot more than 6% of 50k (almost twice as much in fact).

Yes, you're right that a parse won't be the same as an actual trial, but I didn't compare a parse to an actual trial, I compared it to another parse. The entire point of parsing is to control for all those other variables that can impact dps. So while yes, the parse I shared didn't have to deal with movement/mechanics/etc., neither did the parse I was comparing it to.

Estin

While I'm sorry for your condition, a long pity post is not the way to go about asking for reverting the nerf. They're unconstructive and only aim to maliciously guilt trip the devs. People have already done parses with the changes and the dps nerf ranges from 6-11% which is very minor considering the builds can still hit 80-90k which is way more than viable for vet trial content where the DPS that's needed to be viable ranges from 50-70k. Post nerf, the Oakensoul HA build is still on par with your average end game DD. You can still obtain Trifecta rewards at this level. If you're not hitting those numbers, the nerf will affect you even less. The build is first and foremost an accessibility item to let lower performing players to be viable in content. It was never intended to be an item directed towards disabled players or else it would be given at the start of the game. It was over performing prenerf and still over performs post nerf, but it's no longer sitting on the heels of your average end game player.

Dagoth_Rac

The part I find most frustrating is the belief that high performing builds should require as much relentless frantic button smashing as possible. That is the be all and end all of what makes you a "real DPS". If you don't come out of your game session with a repetitive stress injury, you didn't "earn" your DPS. The idea that cooperation, communication, situational awareness, reflexes, strategic and tactical thinking, mechanics, etc., don't matter. You can be amazing at those things but no one cares. Parse X or go home. For a lot of players, being able to reach good DPS without such intense physical requirements allowed other areas of advanced gameplay to shine.

PrincessOfThieves

I have a mild disability, too, but I do not think that being able to do difficult content on easy mode is the right way to approach the subject. For example, I cannot run to save my life, I run out of breath very quickly. Does that mean I can bring a scooter to a running competition? I don't think so.
All ESO content is accessible to everyone, every dungeon and trial has a normal difficulty. Vet content and especially vet hardmode content is here to provide challenge. Usually when games have rewards associated with higher difficulty, they don't give out these rewards when you're playing on easy, so I don't think that everyone is entitled to get all trifectas on easy mode just because they want that.
I personally think that Oakensorc should be powerful enough for vets, but its dps ceiling is too high and people are abusing it for easy clears. Lowering the damage potential will not interfere with people's ability to do trials, you don't need 100k dps to clear content.
Also, not every disabled player likes to play one bar builds. I really dislike how plain they are, and being pigeonholed into playing Oakensorc is super annoying. It's just overpowered compared to everything else available to me, and that completely removes the "play as you want" aspect from the game. I feel like all casual build choices should be more or less equal, and now it's like "if you can't use high end builds, then it's Oakensorc or GTFO".

Shepoffire

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

nokturnihs

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I have a mild disability, too, but I do not think that being able to do difficult content on easy mode is the right way to approach the subject. For example, I cannot run to save my life, I run out of breath very quickly. Does that mean I can bring a scooter to a running competition? I don't think so.
All ESO content is accessible to everyone, every dungeon and trial has a normal difficulty. Vet content and especially vet hardmode content is here to provide challenge. Usually when games have rewards associated with higher difficulty, they don't give out these rewards when you're playing on easy, so I don't think that everyone is entitled to get all trifectas on easy mode just because they want that.
I personally think that Oakensorc should be powerful enough for vets, but its dps ceiling is too high and people are abusing it for easy clears. Lowering the damage potential will not interfere with people's ability to do trials, you don't need 100k dps to clear content.
Also, not every disabled player likes to play one bar builds. I really dislike how plain they are, and being pigeonholed into playing Oakensorc is super annoying. It's just overpowered compared to everything else available to me, and that completely removes the "play as you want" aspect from the game. I feel like all casual build choices should be more or less equal, and now it's like "if you can't use high end builds, then it's Oakensorc or GTFO".

If the rewards didn't change between veteran and normal content and the extra challenge was purely optional (similar to some other games who have scaling opt-in difficulty to effect the frequency of drops not the rewards themselves) I would wholeheartedly agree. However the reality is in ESO there are rewards, cosmetics, entire sets locked behind the most difficult content with no other option to obtain them. Just as an example, If doing a normal dungeon dropped a blue version of a monster helm and vets dropped the purple versions it wouldn't matter - it really would be only about doing what you enjoy most.

nokturnihs

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

While I'm sorry for your condition, a long pity post is not the way to go about asking for reverting the nerf. They're unconstructive and only aim to maliciously guilt trip the devs. People have already done parses with the changes and the dps nerf ranges from 6-11% which is very minor considering the builds can still hit 80-90k which is way more than viable for vet trial content where the DPS that's needed to be viable ranges from 50-70k. Post nerf, the Oakensoul HA build is still on par with your average end game DD. You can still obtain Trifecta rewards at this level. If you're not hitting those numbers, the nerf will affect you even less. The build is first and foremost an accessibility item to let lower performing players to be viable in content. It was never intended to be an item directed towards disabled players or else it would be given at the start of the game. It was over performing prenerf and still over performs post nerf, but it's no longer sitting on the heels of your average end game player.

Again how is it over-performing? It's still under top end builds?

Also not maliciously guilt tripping devs or asking for pity. I AM irritated that so many hardcore players have been complaining about them specifically because it makes it easier to have other people competing with their builds and the effort they've put into it. I don't like the pandering to that crowd that most MMO devs typically engage in. This is not a unique to ESO phenomenon. Look at games like PoE and you'll see the same behavior. I think the term is called "gatekeeping". You are mistaken. I doubt the devs will even read this post.

Soarora

Depending on how the la mythic goes, can use that on an arcanist. The beam lasts a pretty long time. Could also heal or tank. Healing rotation would be faster but no LAs while a tank rotation is rather slow but not necessarily boring.

FrancisCrawford

Undaunted Infiltrator is almost as good as the old Storm Master for any build that weaves in some magicka skills.

nokturnihs

Shepoffire wrote: »

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

Whorl, relequen and pillar of nirn are also meta and over-performing as is apparent as at least one of these sets is in most of the DPS builds you see out there... So it's fine if they receive a 10-20% nerf too right?

And it's not on par it's still under a 2 bar. It was before and will be more after.

Dagoth_Rac

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I have a mild disability, too, but I do not think that being able to do difficult content on easy mode is the right way to approach the subject. For example, I cannot run to save my life, I run out of breath very quickly. Does that mean I can bring a scooter to a running competition? I don't think so.

It makes sense for an inability to run to keep you out of a running competition. But that implies that ESO endgame is a button smashing competition. Is that really what we want it to be? I have mentioned things like cooperation, communication, situational awareness, reflexes, strategic and tactical thinking, mechanics, etc. Not only do all of those things fall to the wayside compared to button smashing, but button smashing actually negates them! The more buttons you can smash, the less communication your group needs to engage in. The more buttons you can smash, the less you need to think. The more buttons you can smash, the less situational awareness you need. The more buttons you can smash, the more you can ignore mechanics. And so on.

The obsession with DPS in ESO is not just about players liking big numbers. It is about DPS making everything easier. This is probably a game design and philosophical issue. But a lot of us really, really wish the answer to every endgame challenge was not, "MOAR DPS!!" Or if "more DPS" was not locked behind this masochistic need to bash your fingers to bloody stumps.

PrincessOfThieves

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I have a mild disability, too, but I do not think that being able to do difficult content on easy mode is the right way to approach the subject. For example, I cannot run to save my life, I run out of breath very quickly. Does that mean I can bring a scooter to a running competition? I don't think so.
All ESO content is accessible to everyone, every dungeon and trial has a normal difficulty. Vet content and especially vet hardmode content is here to provide challenge. Usually when games have rewards associated with higher difficulty, they don't give out these rewards when you're playing on easy, so I don't think that everyone is entitled to get all trifectas on easy mode just because they want that.
I personally think that Oakensorc should be powerful enough for vets, but its dps ceiling is too high and people are abusing it for easy clears. Lowering the damage potential will not interfere with people's ability to do trials, you don't need 100k dps to clear content.
Also, not every disabled player likes to play one bar builds. I really dislike how plain they are, and being pigeonholed into playing Oakensorc is super annoying. It's just overpowered compared to everything else available to me, and that completely removes the "play as you want" aspect from the game. I feel like all casual build choices should be more or less equal, and now it's like "if you can't use high end builds, then it's Oakensorc or GTFO".

If the rewards didn't change between veteran and normal content and the extra challenge was purely optional (similar to some other games who have scaling opt-in difficulty to effect the frequency of drops not the rewards themselves) I would wholeheartedly agree. However the reality is in ESO there are rewards, cosmetics, entire sets locked behind the most difficult content with no other option to obtain them. Just as an example, If doing a normal dungeon dropped a blue version of a monster helm and vets dropped the purple versions it wouldn't matter - it really would be only about doing what you enjoy most.

Rewards don't change for the most part, though. It is a common complaint that difficult content in ESO is not rewarding. Perfected sets aren't really worth it in most cases and monster sets and the new skins only require vet clear which can be done with like 50-60k dps at most. The only type of content where you really need every little bit of dps you can get is trifectas, and they are mostly about bragging rights. I think it's perfectly reasonable to keep these 3 mounts and a handful of titles for the sweatiest of the sweatiest.

nokturnihs wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

While I'm sorry for your condition, a long pity post is not the way to go about asking for reverting the nerf. They're unconstructive and only aim to maliciously guilt trip the devs. People have already done parses with the changes and the dps nerf ranges from 6-11% which is very minor considering the builds can still hit 80-90k which is way more than viable for vet trial content where the DPS that's needed to be viable ranges from 50-70k. Post nerf, the Oakensoul HA build is still on par with your average end game DD. You can still obtain Trifecta rewards at this level. If you're not hitting those numbers, the nerf will affect you even less. The build is first and foremost an accessibility item to let lower performing players to be viable in content. It was never intended to be an item directed towards disabled players or else it would be given at the start of the game. It was over performing prenerf and still over performs post nerf, but it's no longer sitting on the heels of your average end game player.

Again how is it over-performing? It's still under top end builds?

Also not maliciously guilt tripping devs or asking for pity. I AM irritated that so many hardcore players have been complaining about them specifically because it makes it easier to have other people competing with their builds and the effort they've put into it. I don't like the pandering to that crowd that most MMO devs typically engage in. This is not a unique to ESO phenomenon. Look at games like PoE and you'll see the same behavior. I think the term is called "gatekeeping". You are mistaken. I doubt the devs will even read this post.

I am not a hardcore player, but Oakensorc makes content so much easier, and claiming otherwise is just disingenuous. You can survive 25k hits that would kill a regular dd, you have infinite sustain for heals and you don't need any rotation so you can fully focus on mechanics. Also, unlike traditional endgame builds, you don't have to rely on your group for buffs and sustain.
Even with 60k dps Oakensorc would be the best option for most players. Just because many mechanics that would normally oneshot dds and healers are survivable with 28k hp and 100% buff uptime which makes learning mechanics much easier. This is also true for solo arenas - I got a Vateshran trifecta without even trying the first day I tried Oakensorc.

PrincessOfThieves

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I have a mild disability, too, but I do not think that being able to do difficult content on easy mode is the right way to approach the subject. For example, I cannot run to save my life, I run out of breath very quickly. Does that mean I can bring a scooter to a running competition? I don't think so.

It makes sense for an inability to run to keep you out of a running competition. But that implies that ESO endgame is a button smashing competition. Is that really what we want it to be? I have mentioned things like cooperation, communication, situational awareness, reflexes, strategic and tactical thinking, mechanics, etc. Not only do all of those things fall to the wayside compared to button smashing, but button smashing actually negates them! The more buttons you can smash, the less communication your group needs to engage in. The more buttons you can smash, the less you need to think. The more buttons you can smash, the less situational awareness you need. The more buttons you can smash, the more you can ignore mechanics. And so on.

The obsession with DPS in ESO is not just about players liking big numbers. It is about DPS making everything easier. This is probably a game design and philosophical issue. But a lot of us really, really wish the answer to every endgame challenge was not, "MOAR DPS!!" Or if "more DPS" was not locked behind this masochistic need to bash your fingers to bloody stumps.

Yes, dps is the king in ESO, that's how it was designed. This is why I think that they re-think their design philosophy if they want more people participating in vet content. This problem should be solved by re-balancing the content, not by selling op mythics.
Also, like I said, Oaken builds make mechanics easier. In vet content it's not unusual to get hit for 25k or so which would kill a regular dd (especially if they need regen food), but these hits can be easily tanked on Oaken build.

Jaimeh

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

I have mentioned things like cooperation, communication, situational awareness, reflexes, strategic and tactical thinking, mechanics, etc. Not only do all of those things fall to the wayside compared to button smashing, but button smashing actually negates them! The more buttons you can smash, the less communication your group needs to engage in. The more buttons you can smash, the less you need to think. The more buttons you can smash, the less situational awareness you need. The more buttons you can smash, the more you can ignore mechanics. And so on.

On the flip side, Oakensoul also negates many of the things you mentioned; it offers so much mitigation that players are just standing in the AoE's weathering mechanics instead of playing them, which is exactly the opposite from the spirit of the things you stated above. Something with that much mitigation has to be tuned down, and the nerf is not so much that it will bar anyone from content, it's just an effort to reign it in and bring it line. It's a good thing to have more people in vet content, it will keep the vet community vibrant, and it's a good thing for disabled people to be able to complete challenges they couldn't before, but it's a bad thing when able players co-opt an issue for their agenda and dps problems, and I feel that's what has been happening.

Artim_X

There are different heavy attack sets that pair better with sergeant's so that you can still get a decent crit rate from the light armor passives. Even though the boost they give to heavy attacks isn't as significant, they are at the very least consistent. Storm Master's can technically still be functional if one already has a decent crit rate.

Although ZOS has in the past nerfed things in a way that completely deleted certain playstyles, this is not one of those cases. This is just a case of making players reassess their set options, which occurs in practically every patch and eventually affects every type of playstyle. Such is the nature of an MMO focused on horizontal progression.

Heavy attack oriented playstyles are here to stay and have been here since they very beginning long before oakensoul.

Arawin

At the end of the day, the object is to clear the trial at whatever difficulty is set. If the group makes it through with a win, WHY does anyone give a XXXX whether they are running a one bar or two bar build?. Seriously the whole argument is about who is swinging the biggest dXXXX and not about accessibility at all.

CameraBeardThePirate

nokturnihs wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

Whorl, relequen and pillar of nirn are also meta and over-performing as is apparent as at least one of these sets is in most of the DPS builds you see out there... So it's fine if they receive a 10-20% nerf too right?

And it's not on par it's still under a 2 bar. It was before and will be more after.

But again, it wasn't a 10-20% nerf. It's a 6% nerf. That's it. Stop hyperbolizing it.

nokturnihs

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

Whorl, relequen and pillar of nirn are also meta and over-performing as is apparent as at least one of these sets is in most of the DPS builds you see out there... So it's fine if they receive a 10-20% nerf too right?

And it's not on par it's still under a 2 bar. It was before and will be more after.

But again, it wasn't a 10-20% nerf. It's a 6% nerf. That's it. Stop hyperbolizing it.

I still doubt that math on a parse. I've seen multiple parse screenies "showing" it's only a 6% drop but the math doesn't work and most of those parses are showing evidence of some pretty off-topic material... No sign of Sergeant's or storm master in the buff but minor aegis and warhorn and other nonsense. Nevertheless, my question is still unanswered. It should be fine by previous logic to nerf (by 6-10%) other meta sets that are over-performing like relequen, whorl, pillar right?

nokturnihs

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

PrincessOfThieves wrote: »

I have a mild disability, too, but I do not think that being able to do difficult content on easy mode is the right way to approach the subject. For example, I cannot run to save my life, I run out of breath very quickly. Does that mean I can bring a scooter to a running competition? I don't think so.
All ESO content is accessible to everyone, every dungeon and trial has a normal difficulty. Vet content and especially vet hardmode content is here to provide challenge. Usually when games have rewards associated with higher difficulty, they don't give out these rewards when you're playing on easy, so I don't think that everyone is entitled to get all trifectas on easy mode just because they want that.
I personally think that Oakensorc should be powerful enough for vets, but its dps ceiling is too high and people are abusing it for easy clears. Lowering the damage potential will not interfere with people's ability to do trials, you don't need 100k dps to clear content.
Also, not every disabled player likes to play one bar builds. I really dislike how plain they are, and being pigeonholed into playing Oakensorc is super annoying. It's just overpowered compared to everything else available to me, and that completely removes the "play as you want" aspect from the game. I feel like all casual build choices should be more or less equal, and now it's like "if you can't use high end builds, then it's Oakensorc or GTFO".

If the rewards didn't change between veteran and normal content and the extra challenge was purely optional (similar to some other games who have scaling opt-in difficulty to effect the frequency of drops not the rewards themselves) I would wholeheartedly agree. However the reality is in ESO there are rewards, cosmetics, entire sets locked behind the most difficult content with no other option to obtain them. Just as an example, If doing a normal dungeon dropped a blue version of a monster helm and vets dropped the purple versions it wouldn't matter - it really would be only about doing what you enjoy most.

Rewards don't change for the most part, though. It is a common complaint that difficult content in ESO is not rewarding. Perfected sets aren't really worth it in most cases and monster sets and the new skins only require vet clear which can be done with like 50-60k dps at most. The only type of content where you really need every little bit of dps you can get is trifectas, and they are mostly about bragging rights. I think it's perfectly reasonable to keep these 3 mounts and a handful of titles for the sweatiest of the sweatiest.

nokturnihs wrote: »

sh4d0wh4z3 wrote: »

While I'm sorry for your condition, a long pity post is not the way to go about asking for reverting the nerf. They're unconstructive and only aim to maliciously guilt trip the devs. People have already done parses with the changes and the dps nerf ranges from 6-11% which is very minor considering the builds can still hit 80-90k which is way more than viable for vet trial content where the DPS that's needed to be viable ranges from 50-70k. Post nerf, the Oakensoul HA build is still on par with your average end game DD. You can still obtain Trifecta rewards at this level. If you're not hitting those numbers, the nerf will affect you even less. The build is first and foremost an accessibility item to let lower performing players to be viable in content. It was never intended to be an item directed towards disabled players or else it would be given at the start of the game. It was over performing prenerf and still over performs post nerf, but it's no longer sitting on the heels of your average end game player.

Again how is it over-performing? It's still under top end builds?

Also not maliciously guilt tripping devs or asking for pity. I AM irritated that so many hardcore players have been complaining about them specifically because it makes it easier to have other people competing with their builds and the effort they've put into it. I don't like the pandering to that crowd that most MMO devs typically engage in. This is not a unique to ESO phenomenon. Look at games like PoE and you'll see the same behavior. I think the term is called "gatekeeping". You are mistaken. I doubt the devs will even read this post.

I am not a hardcore player, but Oakensorc makes content so much easier, and claiming otherwise is just disingenuous. You can survive 25k hits that would kill a regular dd, you have infinite sustain for heals and you don't need any rotation so you can fully focus on mechanics. Also, unlike traditional endgame builds, you don't have to rely on your group for buffs and sustain.
Even with 60k dps Oakensorc would be the best option for most players. Just because many mechanics that would normally oneshot dds and healers are survivable with 28k hp and 100% buff uptime which makes learning mechanics much easier. This is also true for solo arenas - I got a Vateshran trifecta without even trying the first day I tried Oakensorc.

I'm not saying it doesn't make content easier. It does. Doesn't make you immortal but it helps.

In regards to difficult content not being rewarding - one could argue normal content isn't rewarding either but there's pages and pages of sets unavailable to some players due to the difficulty. Cyrodiil, trials... There's plenty of rewards low APM players struggle far harder to obtain. It's more than a few titles, some cosmetics and some mounts.

In regards to vVH - congrats. I have beat it a few times on normal with OS and it was a struggle. I am fine with being able to just get the items out of solo arenas even if I'm not gonna be able to get the vet versions or rewards.

maxjapank

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Shepoffire wrote: »

Look this isn't the first time builds have been nerfed. I've been at this game a long time and so have many others. I've lost count the times we've had to change due to nerfs and meta shifts. Learn to adapt if you can't do that then that's on you. And honestly I still think that the nerfs can be extended even further. If it was an actual accessibility option then it would be free. But it's not. It should never be on par with 2 bar builds. As for the getting into raids because the groups you are in don't allow your build. Find a new guild. With the amount of disabled people that are complaining about this "nerf" it sounds like y'all have enough people to start a raid team. Make a guild lol.

Whorl, relequen and pillar of nirn are also meta and over-performing as is apparent as at least one of these sets is in most of the DPS builds you see out there... So it's fine if they receive a 10-20% nerf too right?

And it's not on par it's still under a 2 bar. It was before and will be more after.

But again, it wasn't a 10-20% nerf. It's a 6% nerf. That's it. Stop hyperbolizing it.

You've been consistently all over these forums trying to nerf heavy attack builds or trying to justify nerfs. I think you just don't understand what the op is talking about in regard to disabilities because you have either never experienced such or are just not old enough to understand. The op has a real dilemma. So while you may disagree for whatever reason, please try to express a little more care for something that is extremely difficult for another human being.

Rkindaleft

I hate being catty but for the people that are complaining about it, it's never about the inaccessibility of DPS to disabled people or "gatekeeping." HA builds in general are a fantastic accessibility option for people who can't/won't run other options, no one wants to take away your enjoyment of the game, but the build arguably has consequences, and people are mad about the consequences these builds have.

All you need to do is open esologs.com and pick any, I mean, any trial in the last month. You can look at the logs and the equipment and you'll see that over half of all DPS for every other trial and like 90% of the people running vAS are Oakensorc users. Are they using the build for an accessibility option, or are they using it because the build is extremely strong?

It hits high DPS, it's incredibly tanky as it has like 25k resists and can have 30k health with full undaunted passives, all of it's damage is AoE and the build is fully ranged. They are complaining because the build gives arguably too much benefit for arguably, too little input/effort by the player. Honestly, they perform better then LA builds in actual content because your survivability means you can stand in more stuff and not die, your rotation is easier so you don't lose as much DPS when you have to play around mechanics as you can just heavy attack, some groups on vSS runs in my guild just use the bird to heal you out of ice cages and don't have to use healers, I'm not sure that's an accessibility option, I'm more sure that it's just OP.