Storm Master proc window has been excessively narrowed down

ApoAlaia

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

TheDarkRuler wrote: »

Storm Master is now only able to be kept up at about 80% of the time which renders the set unusable. If nerfing a set, at least keep it useable. Right now it is just a piece for the trash can.

It's by no means unusable - it only nerfed overall DPS by about 6% (likely less as PTS parses are lower than they should be due to missing passives)

I'm just waiting for the EU chars to be copied to the PTS to test it in actual content vs how it performs on live. Mind you ideally they should have increased the buff duration to 10s by then in one of the intervening PTS patches. One can dream right?

Thank you for the 'dummy humping' though, appreciated.

remosito

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The set's nerf only affects DPS by about 6% (likely less since PTS parses are missing Medium Armor Passives atm).

cmx says 56.1% crit. which is same as on live pretty much. Actual skill crits are looking good too!

How sure are we ALL passives are broken? and not just some?

looking at that cmx.. I have impression med armor crit chance is working...

CameraBeardThePirate

remosito wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The set's nerf only affects DPS by about 6% (likely less since PTS parses are missing Medium Armor Passives atm).

cmx says 56.1% crit. which is same as on live pretty much. Actual skill crits are looking good too!

How sure are we ALL passives are broken? and not just some?

looking at that cmx.. I have impression med armor crit chance is working...

Medium Armor crit damage is what's missing on PTS. Crit chance is given by Light Armor, not Medium. So instead of being at the crit damage cap, this parse was only at 117% crit damage.

remosito

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Medium Armor crit damage is what's missing on PTS. Crit chance is given by Light Armor, not Medium. So instead of being at the crit damage cap, this parse was only at 117% crit damage.

duh.. you are right of course...thanks for the correction... need more coffee it seems...

CameraBeardThePirate

remosito wrote: »

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

Medium Armor crit damage is what's missing on PTS. Crit chance is given by Light Armor, not Medium. So instead of being at the crit damage cap, this parse was only at 117% crit damage.

duh.. you are right of course...thanks for the correction... need more coffee it seems...

All good, I still mix up Light/Medium armor passives since the changes a couple years ago.

Gendizer

Why don't you nerf the Relequen set, which people have been doing 120-130k DPS with for over a year? You're touching the Storm Master set, which only a few people can do 100k DPS with, while most players are at 85-95k.

Galeriano

Gendizer wrote: »

Why don't you nerf the Relequen set, which people have been doing 120-130k DPS with for over a year? You're touching the Storm Master set, which only a few people can do 100k DPS with, while most players are at 85-95k.

First of all I must say I really love that when You're talking about two bar builds You are just mentioning top 1% of parses like it would be a basline but when You speak about one bar builds You put a strong emphasis on "most players".

Yeah sure why not, lets nerf everyone who isn't top 1% of playerbase. People don't realize that every idea they propose to hit those big bad 130k players will hit average players way harder.

The thing is that 130k is achieved by small minority where vast majority using the same setup struggle to reach 70% of that which is around 90k. You nerf relequen, their DPS goes down even more.

On the other hand everyone and I mean EVERYONE can reach 80-90% of one bar heavy attack potential which is 80-90k just by using 1-2 buttons.

Relequen is also very situational single target set and parses that perform 130k are made on meele build that needs to manage resources alongisde rotation. On the other hand one bar heavy attack setup is a AoE, range setup with zero sustain issues, better base defense and less things to monitor. But yeah let's just blindly nerf everything that top players are using in act of revenge for balancing obviously overperforming one bar setups.

The difference between one bar and two bar setups is that in case of two bar setups It's people who are overperforming but when it comes to one bar setups than it boils down to overperforming sets.

Gendizer

If we talk about the majority of players, they don't really care about being in the top content and don't mind playing on any build with any DPS. As for challenging content such as DLC trials (especially on HM), in most cases, a DPS check of 100k and above (and somewhere I've seen 110k) is required. We are talking about such players now, and almost all of them use Relequen. Thanks to HA builds, simple players have at least some opportunity to complete top content (although I repeat, it is impossible to achieve the same level of DPS as on standard builds with HA builds). And we are gradually losing this opportunity.

MoTa

The majority of players interested in top content make up the midfield. They are far from the top and are lucky to reach 90k. Many of these players may reach 70-85k, which is below what most players reach with one bar. They also have less sustain and resistances. Believe it or not, among midfielders, those with one bar have become elite.

Gendizer

Live:


PTS:

Snamyap

CameraBeardThePirate wrote: »

The set's nerf only affects DPS by about 6% (likely less since PTS parses are missing Medium Armor Passives atm).



This is a PTS parse running Sergeants and Storm Master's that pulled 87k dps. The same build pulls 91k dps on Live. It will likely still be one of the best HA sets, but Noble Duelist's may overtake it in parses. However, because dps of the set only went down by a handful of percentage points, I see no reason to swap to Noble Duelist's if you already have a set of Storm Master's put together.

Did the increase of the range of melee skills also increase the range requirement on Noble Duelist?

isadoraisacat

I swapped storm Master out for mothers sorrow with sergeants mail using oakensoul and slim craw monster helm and I hardly lost any dps.

I’m gonna keep experimenting with a replacement set clearly storm master is rendered useless.

isadoraisacat

Gendizer wrote: »

I can still understand why you nerfed HA builds in PvP. But why are you doing it with PvE? What were players who just wanted to output decent DPS without using your buggy weaving mechanic?
Yes, this build is more convenient and simple, but in terms of damage, it cannot compete with the "normal" (at most, they were outputting around 100k DPS on HA, while regular top builds output around 120-130k DPS).
By nerfing the Storm Master set, you will deprive HA build enthusiasts of the ability to complete top-tier content, where high DPS is required. Rethink your decision before it's too late.

While I’m 100% on your side as a HA player I think some smart player will find another way to make this set up work with another set.

I just hope that person keeps it quite in his small niche. So it doesn’t get ruined.

Syiccal

Would pillar of nern be a good replacement?

robpr

Gendizer wrote: »

Why don't you nerf the Relequen set, which people have been doing 120-130k DPS with for over a year? You're touching the Storm Master set, which only a few people can do 100k DPS with, while most players are at 85-95k.

People will switch to Coral Riptide then.

PrincessOfThieves

Galeriano wrote: »

Gendizer wrote: »

Why don't you nerf the Relequen set, which people have been doing 120-130k DPS with for over a year? You're touching the Storm Master set, which only a few people can do 100k DPS with, while most players are at 85-95k.

First of all I must say I really love that when You're talking about two bar builds You are just mentioning top 1% of parses like it would be a basline but when You speak about one bar builds You put a strong emphasis on "most players".

Yeah sure why not, lets nerf everyone who isn't top 1% of playerbase. People don't realize that every idea they propose to hit those big bad 130k players will hit average players way harder.

The thing is that 130k is achieved by small minority where vast majority using the same setup struggle to reach 70% of that which is around 90k. You nerf relequen, their DPS goes down even more.

On the other hand everyone and I mean EVERYONE can reach 80-90% of one bar heavy attack potential which is 80-90k just by using 1-2 buttons.

Relequen is also very situational single target set and parses that perform 130k are made on meele build that needs to manage resources alongisde rotation. On the other hand one bar heavy attack setup is a AoE, range setup with zero sustain issues, better base defense and less things to monitor. But yeah let's just blindly nerf everything that top players are using in act of revenge for balancing obviously overperforming one bar setups.

The difference between one bar and two bar setups is that in case of two bar setups It's people who are overperforming but when it comes to one bar setups than it boils down to overperforming sets.

This. You can't really compare these 130k parses to HA parses. An average player would be lucky to get 80k with Relequen, but with a heavy attack build anyone can do 80-90k with very little effort. One can say that HA players still need to learn mechanics... That is true, I suppose, but in my experience, things that used to oneshot you can be tanked with Oaken build. So it doesn't just give you a super easy rotation (or even no rotation at all), it also makes dungeon mechanics much more forgiving. This is simply not balanced.
I personally think that the survivability aspect should be left as it is now, but the dps cap should be lowered so it's on par with how other builds would perform in the hands of an average player. This way disabled and super-casual players would still have an easy mode option but it won't be strong enough to cheese difficult content.

DropDeadGorgeous

Instead of nerfing HA builds/sets/buffs, "average player" dps (LA builds, 2-bar builds, complicated rotations...) should be brought UP to the level of 100k HA builds (don't know how, but I'm sure it can be done), so that even more players are able to participate in harder content. I think that would be overall good for the game and for ALL players. Wishful thinking...

Syiccal

DropDeadGorgeous wrote: »

Instead of nerfing HA builds/sets/buffs, "average player" dps (LA builds, 2-bar builds, complicated rotations...) should be brought UP to the level of 100k HA builds (don't know how, but I'm sure it can be done), so that even more players are able to participate in harder content. I think that would be overall good for the game and for ALL players. Wishful thinking...

I think the new mythic is trying to do this

Galeriano

isadoraisacat wrote: »

Gendizer wrote: »

I can still understand why you nerfed HA builds in PvP. But why are you doing it with PvE? What were players who just wanted to output decent DPS without using your buggy weaving mechanic?
Yes, this build is more convenient and simple, but in terms of damage, it cannot compete with the "normal" (at most, they were outputting around 100k DPS on HA, while regular top builds output around 120-130k DPS).
By nerfing the Storm Master set, you will deprive HA build enthusiasts of the ability to complete top-tier content, where high DPS is required. Rethink your decision before it's too late.

While I’m 100% on your side as a HA player I think some smart player will find another way to make this set up work with another set.

I just hope that person keeps it quite in his small niche. So it doesn’t get ruined.

What do You mean "another way for this setup to work"? There is no need for another way, this setup will work perfectly fine after the nerf which has already been proven to You multiple times.

Galeriano

Gendizer wrote: »

If we talk about the majority of players, they don't really care about being in the top content and don't mind playing on any build with any DPS. As for challenging content such as DLC trials (especially on HM), in most cases, a DPS check of 100k and above (and somewhere I've seen 110k) is required. We are talking about such players now, and almost all of them use Relequen. Thanks to HA builds, simple players have at least some opportunity to complete top content (although I repeat, it is impossible to achieve the same level of DPS as on standard builds with HA builds). And we are gradually losing this opportunity.

That's simply not truth. Many people despite not caring about top content still cares what playstyle they will use and belive it or not some of them simply don't like the idea of one bar setups or heavy attack setups and they preffer two bar dynamic setups. Saying that majority of players don't mind what DPS they will produce is also a false. This thread alone and whole outcry about HA nerfs proves that even average players care very much about their DPS. Fact that HA setups became so popoular in the first place is mainly caused because people do care about their DPS.

The is no 1:1 translation between a dummy parse and DLC HM content. There are people who produce 115k od a dummy and still perform better in trial than people who produce 125k on a dummy on the same class.

Relequen is only used in mostly static single target boss fights. In a trash fight You will switch it, if there is lot of trash with boss You will switch it, if You have some specific task to do You will switch it. Even on a dummy parse for top parsers, coral riptide is producing slightly better results that relequen. On the other hand sergant+storm master is used in literally every fight. Imagine if relequen was an AoE dmg set and people could use it in every fight.

Yeah thanks to heavy attack builds, less skilled players have opportunity to complete more things. That doesn't mean HA setups exists in a vacuum and are free from any balance decision. Fact that two bar dynamic setups have higher cap doesn't mean that they produce better results on average. Yes they have higher cap but also way higher skill ceiling. Because of that HA setups ON AVERAGE are achieving better DPS right now than standards two bar setups. Not only they achieve way better results ON AVERAGE but also to achieve these results there is way less practice required.

Traxxar

It is too much of a nerf. Dind't feel like it really needed a nerf.

But if ZOS absolutely has to, than down to 15 secs or 12secs for the duration of the bonus would be okay. They need to leave 2 HA attacks as a window to potentially reproc it. Especially in combat that can easily be taken up by blocks, roll dodges, stuns etc.

usmcjdking

Absolutely pointless nerf.

Storm Master is completely fine, probably outwardly weak, when you don't take into account channeled heavy attacks. Yet here we are.

Galeriano

usmcjdking wrote: »

Absolutely pointless nerf.

Storm Master is completely fine, probably outwardly weak, when you don't take into account channeled heavy attacks. Yet here we are.

There is no difference between channeled heavies and regular heavies when it comes to storm master proc. Since set requirement says about fully charged heavy attack when it comes to chanelled heavies only last tick of fully chanelled heavy attack will count towards storm master proc. This is why after the nerf uptime on that set will drop to around 80-85% even for setups with lightning and resto staves.