Regarding the PB nerfs for PVE

luchtt

Plaguebreak: This set now will only attempt to apply itself to enemy players, rather than any enemy. Note that the explosion can still damage and be amplified by nearby non-players.
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
This change was made to correct a behavior we've been seeing in PvP areas where you could apply this set to entities (such as pets or guards) that lacked critical knowledge of how to counter-play the mechanics introduced. This also hits the truly creative uses of the set in PvE where we have seen some humorous videos that wipe out entire dungeons with relative ease, which while we appreciated the ingenuity, it was *slightly* over performing.

Hello, I am the very likely cause of this nerf. First of all, this jab at my ''humorous video'' which took months to theorycraft and complete is a bit rude, but i dont really care haha. I hope you enjoyed it.

The video this is in reference to can only be 3 things:
Ra Kotu plaguebreak dps nuke from UA (unlikely, as it was a low burst although he still got about 300k single target with it, removing the first 20% of ra kotus hp in 1 burst)
vHoF spider nuke from Limit's world record they recently revealed the pov of. (unlikely low number of views but most disgusting nuke)
My vMoS solo trifecta. (likeliest, highest views and most outrageous use of it in terms of timesave)

In the vMoS run I do, I run to the first boss carrying all adds except the first pack with me, and then use them to act as a catalyst for a roughly 8million dps burst of dps to nuke the boss (log for reference: https://www.esologs.com/reports/9L2FangBK1qG74zW#fight=15&type=damage-done ) (can also look up the video easily ''march of sacrifices solo trifecta)

While I understand this may look ridiculously overpowered to some people, it has very few genuine problematic use cases, and the ones that do exist like these 3 I listed are VERY difficult to actually pull off, especially in groups. You will essentially only see this in very organized groups and even then it would be difficult. It took me about 3 days of constant attempts to get this nuke to even work in the first place, and then consistently fast -> workable. And that's solo. imagine having 4 other players making the pull even more rng. If you doubt the legitimacy of my difficulty claim, I suggest you try this nuke out, but do not look at my video. Only take the idea of it being possible with all the run-up adds as your idea as that is where I started. taking my exact route will of course make it insanely easy.

Still, though. this does not excuse the obvious overpowerdness of nuking a 4.5mil health boss to 0, or a 40mil boss to 2mil, etc. What is unfair however is completely removing it from pve.
I propose changing it to have a reasonably high max damage cap. This would make nukes like this even less worth it to attempt while keeping the situational power of this as a trash mob setup. The vast majority of use plaguebreak sees is in dungeon and trial trash mobs. It only slightly outperforms a standard BSW +sulxan setup in most pulls, especially in DLC dungeons and trials where the amount of ''nuke ready'' adds (aka below roughly 400-450k hp adds) are much fewer in number.

The damage cap would be a bit hard to figure out, I would say 50k is too low, but about 120k is where it starts to get a bit too high. In most trash pulls in trials/dungeons I've done, plaguebreak deals about 50-70k damage max hit. Knowing how it deals damage is important in balancing it aswell, for pve at least. The first few procs of it will generally deal the most damage, since the highest number of adds exist around it,


As a last note, I recently had a conversation with Gilliam, the lead combat designer, in a discord. The topic of the vamp toggle (frenzy morph) nerfs came up, and as a response to the thought process behind it I quote:

''at a point in time there was a huge emphasis when the team looked at what a select few very talented players like yourself were capable of, and decided to try and use those as points to reference for some balance decisions yeah - but the team has moved away from that quite a bit.
I personally think that is testimony to very good game design myself
giving people the agency and capability to utilize tools at their disposal to express skill to do crazy ***
that's what breathes longevity into games and makes things stand out''

Sorry, gilliam for exposing you a bit here. Truly no hard feelings but I just have to point out this obvious flaw in logic. my faith in the combat team was massively improved when you said that. I know you will read this.
I hope you guys from the combat team will be able to make plaguebreak still useable in pve while still removing this obvious top potential, although I didn't see any issue with it in the first place to be honest. There really is extremely few people/groups capable of using PB this way. Much fewer than even vampire toggle back then. Reconsider.

Zalathorm

Completely eliminating a set from PVE is an extremely disappointing precedent.

[snip]

Don't go through with this. If you do, I want to trade in my plague break jewelry for all the mats that went into creating them.

[edited for bashing]

TheDarkRuler

Zalathorm wrote: »

Don't go through with this. If you do, I want to trade in my plague break jewelry for all the mats that went into creating them.

[snip] Good luck with that.

[edited for bashing]

IncultaWolf

I don't think it should just "not work" in pve, maybe give it a maximum damage cap to balance it out?

Shepoffire

Yeah.... This is lame....

luchtt

I must say though! this is literally the only bad change in my opinion. I don't aim to take away from this overall massive success on week 1 not gonna lie. There aren't really any bad changes whatsoever. Excellent work aside from this PB over-nerf.

Dragonlord573

IncultaWolf wrote: »

I don't think it should just "not work" in pve, maybe give it a maximum damage cap to balance it out?

Exactly. Giving it a damage cap/making it do % less damage to monsters would balance the set instead of removing more options from players.

What happened to "play the way you want?"

DrNukenstein

I strongly disapprove. Using Plaguebreak to nuke entire rooms dead in Random Normal Dungeons is the only fun thing in this game that isn't PVP.

Alphawolf01A

ZOS, "Play the way you want?" (Unless someone does it better, then make it so no one can play that way)

bachpain

Zalathorm wrote: »

Completely eliminating a set from PVE is an extremely disappointing precedent.

[snip]

Don't go through with this. If you do, I want to trade in my plague break jewelry for all the mats that went into creating them.

This is the company that is trying to deal with healstacking in PVP with a 5 piece set. [snip]

[edited for bashing & to remove quote]

BenTSG

If this goes through to live, then I am definitely not giving a single penny more to this, this is just completely stupid. There is many ways to achive what they want, and this isn't it.

alternatelder

I can't believe they nerfed this and left Dark Convergence, the actual problem in pvp, alone. I was fine with PB, but do something about DC already...

Kavar162

I actually think this change is fine. This set is more pvp focused than not (similar to vicious death), so using it to great avail in pve was not gonna last.

SimonThesis

Ever since PB came out many pvp guilds have outlawed Sorc and Necro pets because they proc PB. Pets have blown up entire groups before. Glad they are finally doing something about it. They should make it a change only in cyrodiil tho.

jaws343

Zalathorm wrote: »

Completely eliminating a set from PVE is an extremely disappointing precedent.

[snip]

Don't go through with this. If you do, I want to trade in my plague break jewelry for all the mats that went into creating them.

I mean, technically, this is what players have been screaming for for years, separately balanced gear sets.

Plaguebreak, at its very design, was intended to be a PVP set. So, making it function only in PVP makes sense. And, maybe will lead to more area specific set effects. They seem more and more willing to tailor these sets to only work where intended, like monster only damage with empower and slayer buffs and even heavy attack sets.

[edited to remove quote]

Dragonlord573

jaws343 wrote: »

Zalathorm wrote: »

Completely eliminating a set from PVE is an extremely disappointing precedent.

[snip]

Don't go through with this. If you do, I want to trade in my plague break jewelry for all the mats that went into creating them.

I mean, technically, this is what players have been screaming for for years, separately balanced gear sets.

Plaguebreak, at its very design, was intended to be a PVP set. So, making it function only in PVP makes sense. And, maybe will lead to more area specific set effects. They seem more and more willing to tailor these sets to only work where intended, like monster only damage with empower and slayer buffs and even heavy attack sets.

While true, the least they could have done is give us a PvE version then. Plaguebreak really helps nightblades do cleave damage as they have mostly single target damage.

[edited to remove quote]

EF321

Booooo, no fun allowed.

ManM

Definitely no fun allowed. Dark convergeance used to be great on dungeon trash, then they nerfed that so it didn't happen much at all. Next up, plaguebreak gets nerfed. The sad thing is that often a NPC plaguebreak bomb is the only way to kill a player in Mara's, short of having a full team to zerg them down. Very disappointing.

Halcyon_Kismet

You can always count on ZoS to completely overreact due to one clip which took a lot of time and effort to pull off and decide to banish a perfectly good set from the game because of it. There are maybe handful of bosses that can get value out of Plaguebreak on, but otherwise its mostly just a trash clearing set.

Maybe the real problem is that you let all of the mobs just wander into the boss arena rather than setting up a gate like 99% of encounters. And if Plaguebreak does happen to be amazing in one or two fights, is that really so bad? Its certainly a terrible choice in most boss fights, so is there really a problem if it shines in bosses with lots of small guys? I think more variety in sets is a good thing.

Here's hoping they don't go through with this change as its one of the more enjoyable sets of PvE trash cleanup. Its pretty stupid that they would completely ruin a set over some YouTube clip where the stars align and make it look way better than it really is due.

brainsnorkel

I have to agree this seems like a disproportionate response. This set brings so much joy in PVE.

Vicious death is a similar set restricted to pvp-only that already existed when plaguebreak was introduced. The set designers must have intentionally provided for plaguebreak to be used in PVE to help distinguish it. If it was designed for pvp only then it would have been restricted to pvp only.

This is going to hurt a vast number of PVE dungeon enjoyers more than it needs to. Why not cap or scale the damage differently so it still has utility for casual players, and continues to reward hard-working evil geniuses like Lucht?

Toxic_Hemlock

Guess all my PVE map clearing alts will be in need of switching sets if this goes live. Makes for a huge waste of golden jewelry, all because of one video but it is what it is. If it goes live I'll be looking for a replacement set for 5 alts, I will most likely just use deadly strike, but recommendations are always welcome. I may just start doing overland naked as it seems the nerf hammer will hit any descent build eventually, but damn this was a fun set for overland.

Edit to add: I will most likely just go back and use new moon acolyte. I would say deadly strike, but it too is a PvP set and they might just nuke it into the ground in PvE too. New moon acolyte is not only older, but a created set, so it is more or less safer for the long term.

xDeusEJRx

brainsnorkel wrote: »

I have to agree this seems like a disproportionate response. This set brings so much joy in PVE.

Vicious death is a similar set restricted to pvp-only that already existed when plaguebreak was introduced. The set designers must have intentionally provided for plaguebreak to be used in PVE to help distinguish it. If it was designed for pvp only then it would have been restricted to pvp only.

This is going to hurt a vast number of PVE dungeon enjoyers more than it needs to. Why not cap or scale the damage differently so it still has utility for casual players, and continues to reward hard-working evil geniuses like Lucht?

Plaguebreak was not even intended to be used in PVE, it was originally intended solely to punish large group play in PVP. Especially purge spamming big groups.



Like Jaws said earlier, this is the well-needed separation of PVE vs PVP for sets that people were asking to exist, plaguebreak was functionally intended to target large group play in pvp and this doesn't change the narrative of that.

Halcyon_Kismet

If it wasn't intended to be used in PvE, whey did they decided to change in it an pervious update to specifically work in PvE? When the set first came out it was PvP only. They added in the interaction for it to work with monsters in a later update.

Latin

I absolutely hate the change as it limits creative gameplay and ingenuity. ZOS want players to enjoy the game, yet all this change does it make it less enjoyable for those who are bored of the game and theorise new ways to make it fun again.

xDeusEJRx

Halcyon_Kismet wrote: »

If it wasn't intended to be used in PvE, whey did they decided to change in it an pervious update to specifically work in PvE? When the set first came out it was PvP only. They added in the interaction for it to work with monsters in a later update.

There was never a distinction on the set. You could always proc Plaguebreak on monsters, PVP players have been using that since day 1 to nuke players with guards. I'm sure this change is because they never thought people were actually applying that same logic to PVE interactions

BenTSG

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

brainsnorkel wrote: »

I have to agree this seems like a disproportionate response. This set brings so much joy in PVE.

Vicious death is a similar set restricted to pvp-only that already existed when plaguebreak was introduced. The set designers must have intentionally provided for plaguebreak to be used in PVE to help distinguish it. If it was designed for pvp only then it would have been restricted to pvp only.

This is going to hurt a vast number of PVE dungeon enjoyers more than it needs to. Why not cap or scale the damage differently so it still has utility for casual players, and continues to reward hard-working evil geniuses like Lucht?

Plaguebreak was not even intended to be used in PVE, it was originally intended solely to punish large group play in PVP. Especially purge spamming big groups.



Like Jaws said earlier, this is the well-needed separation of PVE vs PVP for sets that people were asking to exist, plaguebreak was functionally intended to target large group play in pvp and this doesn't change the narrative of that.

Well if their arguement was to separate PvP gear from PvE from the get go, then it would be better. Still sting, but better. However their arguement is that this is 'overperforming', and doing something completely stupid to it instead of actually trying to tweak it properly to reign it in. And if what Kismet said is right, that it was originally only PvP and then changed, then that makes removing it from NPCs completely due to 'overperforming' even worse.

Cadbury

Interesting that it's "overperforming" in PvE, but not PvP.

Howda

Plaguebreak is one of the sets that we have the most fun with and it has a very good combat visual feedback which is quite a lot fun to play with.

Can we have it in pve in some alternative version rather than completely removed from?

I also have Plaguebreak for both pve and pvp together with my other builds and I am not an isolated case that find this change concerning.

- Nerf pve dmg?
- Cascading effect limited to 3 ticks?
- Only 1 plague carrier per caster but other effects to everyone that is affected in pve?

I don't mind nerfing it, just don't take the fun out of the most fun set in the game in pve.

Alezzzander

Need cap for PVE damage.Simple solution.

jaws343

BenTSG wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

brainsnorkel wrote: »

I have to agree this seems like a disproportionate response. This set brings so much joy in PVE.

Vicious death is a similar set restricted to pvp-only that already existed when plaguebreak was introduced. The set designers must have intentionally provided for plaguebreak to be used in PVE to help distinguish it. If it was designed for pvp only then it would have been restricted to pvp only.

This is going to hurt a vast number of PVE dungeon enjoyers more than it needs to. Why not cap or scale the damage differently so it still has utility for casual players, and continues to reward hard-working evil geniuses like Lucht?

Plaguebreak was not even intended to be used in PVE, it was originally intended solely to punish large group play in PVP. Especially purge spamming big groups.



Like Jaws said earlier, this is the well-needed separation of PVE vs PVP for sets that people were asking to exist, plaguebreak was functionally intended to target large group play in pvp and this doesn't change the narrative of that.

Well if their arguement was to separate PvP gear from PvE from the get go, then it would be better. Still sting, but better. However their arguement is that this is 'overperforming', and doing something completely stupid to it instead of actually trying to tweak it properly to reign it in. And if what Kismet said is right, that it was originally only PvP and then changed, then that makes removing it from NPCs completely due to 'overperforming' even worse.

It wasn't originally effective only in PVP. Original patch notes:

5 – Dealing direct damage to an enemy turns them into a Plague Carrier for 10 seconds, dealing Disease Damage over the duration. If the plague is removed early, it explodes, infecting enemies within 8 meters of the carrier dealing Disease Damage. The explosion deals an additional 10% per enemy hit. This effect can occur once every 100ms and scales off of the higher of your Weapon or Spell Damage. This set only applies itself to any target that isn’t already under the effects of the set

But it was specifically created and added to the game, as a ROTW set, to combat PVP issues. It's usefulness in PVE was a side effect.

jaws343

Cadbury wrote: »

Interesting that it's "overperforming" in PvE, but not PvP.

It is over performing in PVP. Through players targeting pets and PVE guards to cause explosions. Something they even addressed in the patch notes and made the set no longer effect.