horrid ball groups ruining pvp

mocap · August 2023

Main problem is low quality of players. They:
- don't observe battlefield fast enough to see what's coming
- they don't hold block/dodge
- they don't use obstacles, more know as LOS - line of sight
- they don't use speed buff
- zergs follow ballgroup for unknown reason and then die *

And most important: they will never read this post and will continue to do all that mistakes.

* just one death of PUG player can generate 20k+ damage from procs. Thats why friendly ballgroups mostly ignore enemy balls when there are lot of zerg players around, cuz they generate too much "death proc" damage.

WreckfulAbandon · August 2023

Main problem is pugs arent coordinated enough to spam finesse rapid regen and echoing vigor so that they all have 5+ instances of each ticking on them at all times.

I get it, I get it, don't hound me ball group enthusiasts. It takes a lot of skill to spam adeptly coordinate these skills and a lot of patience to endure being yelled at by your hive mind charismatic leader. Also a lot of self control to suspend all independent thought while part of the group. Props! 💪💯

TechMaybeHic · August 2023

The pulls into them annoy me because I appear well away from the crowd but yet go flying in to Squishies that are already exploding when I get there. Lately it's pulling me around said objects, even back up on the wall because maybe the game disagrees with where I was, seemingly never in my favor.

Marcus684 · August 2023

mocap wrote: »

Main problem is low quality of players. They:
- don't observe battlefield fast enough to see what's coming
- they don't hold block/dodge
- they don't use obstacles, more know as LOS - line of sight
- they don't use speed buff
- zergs follow ballgroup for unknown reason and then die *

And most important: they will never read this post and will continue to do all that mistakes.

* just one death of PUG player can generate 20k+ damage from procs. Thats why friendly ballgroups mostly ignore enemy balls when there are lot of zerg players around, cuz they generate too much "death proc" damage.

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

The pulls into them annoy me because I appear well away from the crowd but yet go flying in to Squishies that are already exploding when I get there. Lately it's pulling me around said objects, even back up on the wall because maybe the game disagrees with where I was, seemingly never in my favor.

90% of the of the top comment is made completely irrelevant by the bottom comment, while 10% is made irrelevant by the sets and skills the ball uses. I've been a solo player for the last 5+ years and I know all of the strategies to avoid dying to them, and the ONLY one that 100% works is to completely stay away from them:
- block/dodge doesn't work when you get hit with fears/roots/stuns and the lag the ball generates makes breaking free take forever
- LOS doesn't work when pulls work around & through obstacles
- speed buffs aren't particularly useful when the ball is at speed cap and they can root/pull/stun you
- most zergs aren't following the ball. They show up to defend what the ball is attacking and get bunched up and blown up with RoA/VD/OO

Blaming the solo players for dying to the completely unbalanced system that ZOS had created and ball groups are taking advantage of is gaslighting at its finest.

OBJnoob · August 2023

If a solo player had a chance against a group of 12 wouldn't that be unbalanced? Literally?

Aren't RoA, VD, and OO designed to counter ball groups?

Recommending isn't the same as blaming.

WreckfulAbandon · August 2023

No set will ever counter ball groups as if it's good they can just find a way to use the set themselves.

If battle spirit removed the same heal type from stacking how would that give an unfair edge to the 1 person in a 1v12?

They would just have to use some other heals rather than crutch on game mechanics favoring using the most convenient and efficient heals for mobility.

OBJnoob · August 2023

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

No set will ever counter ball groups as if it's good they can just find a way to use the set themselves.

If battle spirit removed the same heal type from stacking how would that give an unfair edge to the 1 person in a 1v12?

They would just have to use some other heals rather than crutch on game mechanics favoring using the most convenient and efficient heals for mobility.

1) True. Which is why we/they should stop trying. Cuz sets designed to fight outnumbered aren't good they're great. I just think it's funny that the groups who end up using it are always the scapegoats for why it needs to be nerfed. 1 person blowing up 12 is "skill" 12 people yanking 1 person into place is "broken."

2) I wouldn't say that's giving the 1 an unfair advantage-- but I think it is removing a fair advantage from the 12. They have a team. They're healing eachother.

3) And they would. And the change won't have the expected result. Ballgroups will still run over solos, and why shouldn't they?

It isn't as though most Xers aren't using their own meta and borderline broken mechanics. And they do fine. Until faced with a large meta group. I see nothing unbalanced. Just a pot calling a kettle black.

chessalavakia_ESO · August 2023

OBJnoob wrote: »

If a solo player had a chance against a group of 12 wouldn't that be unbalanced? Literally?

Aren't RoA, VD, and OO designed to counter ball groups?

Recommending isn't the same as blaming.

Personally, if I was trying to counter ball groups with design I'd lean more on siege to do it rather than leaning on sets or skills.

Cyrodiil leaves players stuck in combat quite regularly which limits players ability to adjust their gear or skills for conditions.

As a result, running sets or skills to specifically attempt to take on larger groups will put a damper on your effectiveness in other areas.

Groups can have an easier time choosing that approach than individual players because they can have other members that can mitigate the potential weaknesses in other areas.

Group players can also generally justify the cost of such sets more easily.

I'd suggest adding a siege weapon that works on "Resonance". Add an attractive npc to the starting areas for each faction that has a quest to help them build it and then have them sell them very cheaply for gold/ap and have a daily quest that is easy that rewards you with more.

The design intent would be that the siege weapon does less damage to players in many situations and buildings than traditional siege but, it would be cheaper, easier to use, and significantly more effective against blobs of coordinated players than other siege.

The hope is that the siege item will be common enough that even unskilled players can attempt to provide valuable assistance to other players in fighting against ball groups and that we'll see more siege deployed in assaults.

To deliver this result, the siege weapon will rapidly deploy, rapidly be picked up, rapidly turn, have a fast projectile that goes a long distance, restore to full health when picked up, stack in your inventory, deal oblivion damage, cause a small but stacking short duration debuff to your ability to heal others and be healed by others, and to have the damage scale based on the number of players in the blast radius, the number of heals on the players, and the number of buffs on the players.

To balance out this massive list of advantages, the weapon will not reload if the user is not in it, the base damage will be rather low, players may only deploy one of the siege at a time, the siege weapon will rapidly degrade if left unattended, the siege weapon on deployment and upon pickup will temporarily reduce your maximum health, your healing of other players, and your healing by other players (If you deploy then pickup the debuffs can stack).

Lore wise, the item's creator and the item itself would be masquerading as being Dwemer related when they are instead Daedric related.

Cloudrest · August 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I think everyone that hates fighting ball groups should just not fight them. Just move to different objectives. Even if it means losing scrolls. Hard part is getting the randoms to do it, and they are the content that most the ball groups want. But if everyone does it enough; ball groups will take care of themselves by disbanding out of boredom or put their money where their mouth is, and go look for each other

The issue that I have with this is that it doesn't work. Ballgroups exert enough pressure to be able to hold the entire map hostage under their influence; if there's suddenly a fight somewhere else, one (or two or three) of them often roll up to take it over. Or they'll concentrate every single player in a campaign around a keep or two in trying to deal with them, killing off PvP elsewhere. I'm sure you can remember the pressure my smallscale exerted on the map by farming DC in Glademist for a few patches and the reactions we got in zonechat. We'd take a sizeable pug zerg hostage for however long until we eventually wiped or flipped the keep. Ballgroups do that but with entire factions, and god forbid there's 2-3 of them on the same side pushing the same keep against a defending faction. There's absolutely no chance for the pugs to win, whereas with a smallscale it's a matter of when a mistake is made by the smallscale.

Here's an example, though. My duo and I moved from Sej to Arrius literally today after not playing for almost a month to avoid a Ballgroup who rolled up and ruined our fights there today. We cut the keep, started sieging FD to get inside to force an EP response, and who comes barreling into the door once we get it down? That same Ballgroup. Oh, they tried ultdumping us several times too-- a duo, instead of fighting the 20 or so EP pugs or another Ballgroup that eventually came over to check out what was going on. They were really trying, too. I don't know if we pissed them off or something, but christ. It was weird.

I'm frankly getting sick of PvP being nothing but Ballgroups, Tanks, Healers, Gankers, and DK's running mDW + Vate staff. There's reasons why I don't play a ton anymore-- I'm hoping the meta gets shaken up soon. Ballgroups are a definite issue that've gotten out of control and crosshealing needs to be hard capped to TWO instances of the same-morph heal on you at one time.

TechMaybeHic · August 2023

Cloudrest wrote: »

show previous quotes

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

I think everyone that hates fighting ball groups should just not fight them. Just move to different objectives. Even if it means losing scrolls. Hard part is getting the randoms to do it, and they are the content that most the ball groups want. But if everyone does it enough; ball groups will take care of themselves by disbanding out of boredom or put their money where their mouth is, and go look for each other

The issue that I have with this is that it doesn't work. Ballgroups exert enough pressure to be able to hold the entire map hostage under their influence; if there's suddenly a fight somewhere else, one (or two or three) of them often roll up to take it over. Or they'll concentrate every single player in a campaign around a keep or two in trying to deal with them, killing off PvP elsewhere. I'm sure you can remember the pressure my smallscale exerted on the map by farming DC in Glademist for a few patches and the reactions we got in zonechat. We'd take a sizeable pug zerg hostage for however long until we eventually wiped or flipped the keep. Ballgroups do that but with entire factions, and god forbid there's 2-3 of them on the same side pushing the same keep against a defending faction. There's absolutely no chance for the pugs to win, whereas with a smallscale it's a matter of when a mistake is made by the smallscale.

Here's an example, though. My duo and I moved from Sej to Arrius literally today after not playing for almost a month to avoid a Ballgroup who rolled up and ruined our fights there today. We cut the keep, started sieging FD to get inside to force an EP response, and who comes barreling into the door once we get it down? That same Ballgroup. Oh, they tried ultdumping us several times too-- a duo, instead of fighting the 20 or so EP pugs or another Ballgroup that eventually came over to check out what was going on. They were really trying, too. I don't know if we pissed them off or something, but christ. It was weird.

I'm frankly getting sick of PvP being nothing but Ballgroups, Tanks, Healers, Gankers, and DK's running mDW + Vate staff. There's reasons why I don't play a ton anymore-- I'm hoping the meta gets shaken up soon. Ballgroups are a definite issue that've gotten out of control and crosshealing needs to be hard capped to TWO instances of the same-morph heal on you at one time.

Yeah it's not a perfect strategy but it's often the best we got; if they get in. Usually if a faction can catch them before they get in, they get forced off siege and into their ball. Once in with LOS, it's just an incredible waste of time is what I mean.

But you're not wrong. There are 2 weekdays my guild doesn't even bother running as we don't do build requirements to be at the level of a ball group and rarely get more than a handful of players those days, and there are just ball groups everywhere you go. Running much larger than 12 people mind you (thanks friendly target markers /s). If we have a full group, we sometimes can deal with 1 ball group depending on which one; but it's entirely futile to do anything when they are 2 deep. They'll even split and you'll see 1 ball group starting to go down when the other comes flying in for a bomb.

It really has gotten to be no fun. It's not just a couple good ball groups. It's the mass playstyle anymore while the smaller playstyle is to just run around LOS waiting for a burst window because they are unable to deal with even the most unskilled getting free damage from procs. Games gone way downhill beyond performance IMO

Tigor · August 2023

Ball groups are mostly a burden to normal players who are fan of having the freedom to control their own and the abilities of group mates.

Overpowered groups as ball groups are causing desyncs by spamming their load to farm AP in the shortest period.

It is boring, tiring and no challenge to fight as a normal player.

As a leader of a causal guild I wish to have some changes that go beyond gear implementations, and comprises fundamental changes in pvp areas, as during the test with the cooldown timers on skills, or should include a try to reduce the range of healing skills to stimulate self heal.

A shift in balance to bring chances more in favor of the majority of players instead of a small group that can destroy the game.

Tigor · August 2023

And according this thread I am not the only one who wants to see some changes.

Dat · August 2023

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Main problem is pugs arent coordinated enough to spam finesse rapid regen and echoing vigor so that they all have 5+ instances of each ticking on them at all times.

I get it, I get it, don't hound me ball group enthusiasts. It takes a lot of skill to spam adeptly coordinate these skills and a lot of patience to endure being yelled at by your hive mind charismatic leader. Also a lot of self control to suspend all independent thought while part of the group. Props! 💪💯

As someone who used to lead ballgroups, I gotta say I got a good laugh from reading this lol well said

Tigor · August 2023

Dat wrote: »

show previous quotes

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Main problem is pugs arent coordinated enough to spam finesse rapid regen and echoing vigor so that they all have 5+ instances of each ticking on them at all times.

I get it, I get it, don't hound me ball group enthusiasts. It takes a lot of skill to spam adeptly coordinate these skills and a lot of patience to endure being yelled at by your hive mind charismatic leader. Also a lot of self control to suspend all independent thought while part of the group. Props! 💪💯

As someone who used to lead ballgroups, I gotta say I got a good laugh from reading this lol well said

Why did you quit leading?

Marcus684 · August 2023

Another evening of PvP, another evening dealing with ball groups at back keeps, only this time AD and EP decided they'd team up and both run around inside Glade, only hitting each other long enough to charge ults knowing they won't actually kill each other without an ult dump. My normally rock-solid pvp experience went to complete garbage while they were doing this, and they basically had free reign to farm until they got bored and jumped out.

I think it's time for me to drop my sub and take another game break because this pvp meta is utter crap and only fun for the ball-groupers.

TechMaybeHic · August 2023

Marcus684 wrote: »

Another evening of PvP, another evening dealing with ball groups at back keeps, only this time AD and EP decided they'd team up and both run around inside Glade, only hitting each other long enough to charge ults knowing they won't actually kill each other without an ult dump. My normally rock-solid pvp experience went to complete garbage while they were doing this, and they basically had free reign to farm until they got bored and jumped out.

I think it's time for me to drop my sub and take another game break because this pvp meta is utter crap and only fun for the ball-groupers.

Sounds like a Tuesday

Marcus684 · August 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

show previous quotes

Marcus684 wrote: »

Another evening of PvP, another evening dealing with ball groups at back keeps, only this time AD and EP decided they'd team up and both run around inside Glade, only hitting each other long enough to charge ults knowing they won't actually kill each other without an ult dump. My normally rock-solid pvp experience went to complete garbage while they were doing this, and they basically had free reign to farm until they got bored and jumped out.

I think it's time for me to drop my sub and take another game break because this pvp meta is utter crap and only fun for the ball-groupers.

Sounds like a Tuesday

Pretty much, but adding the 2nd ball to the mix was the icing on the [self snip] cake. When you line up a perfect shot with your siege on the ball, but lag prevents it from firing until they've moved past it, it's time to hang it up and go do something else more fun.

Dat · August 2023

@Tigor
I had been doing it for a few years for CBB on EP and I just needed a break. Been gone for a year or 2 bow and just now coming back because I miss it. Leading was alot of fun so I'll be back soon

Rhaegar75 · August 2023

I really don’t know how to fix the ball group issue and fundamentally lots of good ideas have already been added here in this thread.

I truly cannot stand ball groups but ultimately they make laugh as they look very bot like. They remind me of the days of Lineage 2 when you had 10 bots repeating the same actions again and again. Quite a hollow gameplay

Heals_With_Orbs · August 2023

Marcus684 wrote: »

Another evening of PvP, another evening dealing with ball groups at back keeps, only this time AD and EP decided they'd team up and both run around inside Glade, only hitting each other long enough to charge ults knowing they won't actually kill each other without an ult dump. My normally rock-solid pvp experience went to complete garbage while they were doing this, and they basically had free reign to farm until they got bored and jumped out.

I think it's time for me to drop my sub and take another game break because this pvp meta is utter crap and only fun for the ball-groupers.

On the GH EU its AD and DC helping each other with ball groups. In fact I was at Aleswell keep last night and AD were on the walls defending trying to stop EP entering the gap in the wall while DC joined in with ball groups inside.

What on earth are these people doing?

My experience of the past 3 months has been 2v1 - AD and DC vs EP. Perhaps its different on the other campaigns but this isnt an alliance war at all. Its pretty frustrating spending 10-20 mins trying to take a keep and then a ball group comes around the corner and rolls over everyone in 10 seconds.

Everyone says "ignore them" / "dont feed them" / "try a different campaign" - that doesnt sort the problem because more ball groups have appeared and other campaigns are dead

ZOS are responsible for this whole mess. They wont or cant sort out this stuck in combat bug for one, allow this troll tank meta secondly which only makes the combat bug worse, and they allow 12 people in a group to run around with no real counter and some call it "organised groups". Groups should have an advantage if they work as a team, using voice, and that is perfectly finem but when I see 40+ people try to take down a certain ball group using negates, time stop, scattershot / meatbags etc etc etc to no avail, then something isnt quite right. They allow cross heals, which they did remove, but then nerf sets to allow only one instance of plaguebreak, snake in the stars and also put a cooldown on them etc. Its ok for ball groups to have 12 instances of vigor though and multiple instances of rapid regen.

This has been discussed for years, but never addressed despite many suggestions on these forums

ZOS wont take action or listen so I will also be dropping my sub.

SkaraMinoc · August 2023

Gibbering Shelter makes it very difficult to kill ball groups now.

Rhaegar75 · August 2023

Sadly it’s a simple situation: PvP in ESO is great but ball groups are simply ruining it.
I really hope ZOS will do something about it sooner rather than waiting for ‘normal PvPers’ to just lose interest.

Dat · August 2023

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

Sadly it’s a simple situation: PvP in ESO is great but ball groups are simply ruining it.
I really hope ZOS will do something about it sooner rather than waiting for ‘normal PvPers’ to just lose interest.

Wouldn't "normal" pvpers just play battlegrounds? Kinda seems like that is what that gamemode was made for. Ballgroups are just playing the game how they want to play. Just because it isn't your particular playstyle doesn't mean it's bad. I'm a horrid 1vX player and I'll readily admit that to anyone lol. Doesn't mean I hate the people who build tanky and hump around towers/trees/rocks or anything else they use to los til they get their ults to dump. Which btw is kinda the same thing as how a ballgroup plays. Just with ballgroups it's on a bigger scale. Since 2014 these forums have been complaining about groups who synergize their sets to fight/farm larger groups of players then what they have. It's 2023 my friend and they are still here. Might as well accept it by now. Just avoid us and move on. Or form another and fights us because you aren't gonna do anything about it complaining on these forums about us.

It's been done for years and yes sets have been changed/nerfed. Yet we're still here because we adapt. Idk what you're trying to accomplish lol.

Edited-spelling autocorrect errors,poor language

MLRPZ · August 2023

Tigor wrote: »

Ball groups are mostly a burden to normal players who are fan of having the freedom to control their own and the abilities of group mates.

Overpowered groups as ball groups are causing desyncs by spamming their load to farm AP in the shortest period.

It is boring, tiring and no challenge to fight as a normal player.

As a leader of a causal guild I wish to have some changes that go beyond gear implementations, and comprises fundamental changes in pvp areas, as during the test with the cooldown timers on skills, or should include a try to reduce the range of healing skills to stimulate self heal.

A shift in balance to bring chances more in favor of the majority of players instead of a small group that can destroy the game.

Bro,
1- We are normal players too
2- You play(ed ?) in Decimation Elite, the biggest zerg ever known in PC EU.

please stop trying to make sense.

(By the way, i'm still looking for that sweet video you guys had of a 24 man meteor spam on 10 Banana Squad member, if you find it again, gimme)

Tigor · August 2023

MLRPZ wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tigor wrote: »

Ball groups are mostly a burden to normal players who are fan of having the freedom to control their own and the abilities of group mates.

Overpowered groups as ball groups are causing desyncs by spamming their load to farm AP in the shortest period.

It is boring, tiring and no challenge to fight as a normal player.

As a leader of a causal guild I wish to have some changes that go beyond gear implementations, and comprises fundamental changes in pvp areas, as during the test with the cooldown timers on skills, or should include a try to reduce the range of healing skills to stimulate self heal.

A shift in balance to bring chances more in favor of the majority of players instead of a small group that can destroy the game.

Bro,
1- We are normal players too
2- You play(ed ?) in Decimation Elite, the biggest zerg ever known in PC EU.

please stop trying to make sense.

(By the way, i'm still looking for that sweet video you guys had of a 24 man meteor spam on 10 Banana Squad member, if you find it again, gimme)

1) If you're normal, shouldn't you just come and join us? But anyway, most players aren't in ballgroups by which I meant the average pvp player.
2) I am still playing in Decimation Elite. Still running groups but not as big as in the past. We were famous for our groups that coordinated very well. You call them zerg but ok so be it. We gave a place for every player and were just very good at recruiting. We also needed to play like that to counter the Banana Squad ballgroup. They were one of the first groups that developed this adverse effect in pvp.

Nowadays we are more focussing on our reputation and individual playstyles on Ravenwatch EU that still is the purest pvp zone. Would like to see an alliance lock there as well. To have more connection with our faction.

The video you asked for can be considered as lost as I could not find it anywhere.

TheFamousMockingbird · August 2023

I think that permanent snare and root immunity, coupled with swift has removed a significant portion of the counterplay that was intrinsic to PvP. You do damage, you do heal/mitigation and you do movement. Thats pretty much a whole dimension of play, neutralized for little opportunity cost.

When a whole raid can LoS you constantly, it shows that ZoS has broken their own system. Used to be groups would have to use purges and dodge rolls to remove snares constantly, something that doesn't happen now, especially in the plaguebreak era.

WaywardArgonian · August 2023

Tigor wrote: »

1) If you're normal, shouldn't you just come and join us? But anyway, most players aren't in ballgroups by which I meant the average pvp player.
2) I am still playing in Decimation Elite. Still running groups but not as big as in the past. We were famous for our groups that coordinated very well. You call them zerg but ok so be it. We gave a place for every player and were just very good at recruiting. We also needed to play like that to counter the Banana Squad ballgroup. They were one of the first groups that developed this adverse effect in pvp.

Nowadays we are more focussing on our reputation and individual playstyles on Ravenwatch EU that still is the purest pvp zone. Would like to see an alliance lock there as well. To have more connection with our faction.

Even as a casual group, there is a lot you can do to counter ballgroups, especially if you coordinate between guilds as EP Ravenwatch does.

The sad reality is that people in casual groups tend to put out a minimal amount of healing and damage regardless of their group's composition. A group that runs better builds and does many more actions per minute will always win, no matter if it is a ballgroup or something else. Especially on Ravenwatch, where all of the usual carry sets (Snow-Treaders, Rush of Agony, etc.) do not work, guilds should be a lot more introspective in regard to what they can do better themselves before they call for nerfs of an entire playstyle.

TechMaybeHic · August 2023

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

show previous quotes

Tigor wrote: »

1) If you're normal, shouldn't you just come and join us? But anyway, most players aren't in ballgroups by which I meant the average pvp player.
2) I am still playing in Decimation Elite. Still running groups but not as big as in the past. We were famous for our groups that coordinated very well. You call them zerg but ok so be it. We gave a place for every player and were just very good at recruiting. We also needed to play like that to counter the Banana Squad ballgroup. They were one of the first groups that developed this adverse effect in pvp.

Nowadays we are more focussing on our reputation and individual playstyles on Ravenwatch EU that still is the purest pvp zone. Would like to see an alliance lock there as well. To have more connection with our faction.

Even as a casual group, there is a lot you can do to counter ballgroups, especially if you coordinate between guilds as EP Ravenwatch does.

The sad reality is that people in casual groups tend to put out a minimal amount of healing and damage regardless of their group's composition. A group that runs better builds and does many more actions per minute will always win, no matter if it is a ballgroup or something else. Especially on Ravenwatch, where all of the usual carry sets (Snow-Treaders, Rush of Agony, etc.) do not work, guilds should be a lot more introspective in regard to what they can do better themselves before they call for nerfs of entire playstyle.

Ravenwatch is not really where ball groups are strong. I'm not even sure why it would be discussed missing the mass pulls and bombs.

WaywardArgonian · August 2023

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

show previous quotes

WaywardArgonian wrote: »

Tigor wrote: »

1) If you're normal, shouldn't you just come and join us? But anyway, most players aren't in ballgroups by which I meant the average pvp player.
2) I am still playing in Decimation Elite. Still running groups but not as big as in the past. We were famous for our groups that coordinated very well. You call them zerg but ok so be it. We gave a place for every player and were just very good at recruiting. We also needed to play like that to counter the Banana Squad ballgroup. They were one of the first groups that developed this adverse effect in pvp.

Nowadays we are more focussing on our reputation and individual playstyles on Ravenwatch EU that still is the purest pvp zone. Would like to see an alliance lock there as well. To have more connection with our faction.

Even as a casual group, there is a lot you can do to counter ballgroups, especially if you coordinate between guilds as EP Ravenwatch does.

The sad reality is that people in casual groups tend to put out a minimal amount of healing and damage regardless of their group's composition. A group that runs better builds and does many more actions per minute will always win, no matter if it is a ballgroup or something else. Especially on Ravenwatch, where all of the usual carry sets (Snow-Treaders, Rush of Agony, etc.) do not work, guilds should be a lot more introspective in regard to what they can do better themselves before they call for nerfs of entire playstyle.

Ravenwatch is not really where ball groups are strong. I'm not even sure why it would be discussed missing the mass pulls and bombs.

The player I am responding to is talking about the Ravenwatch server and is calling for certain gameplay changes based on his experience in that campaign. Hence my response.

Dojohoda · August 2023

Cyrodiil swirls the loo faster each time more AOE is introduced. Think back to vicious death and the introduction of the destruction staff ultimate. Each year sets with aoe procs are added that do the work for you and also the new classes with several aoe skills.

Organized groups are never going to stop being a big sloppy mess of damage because the game designers keep giving them the tools. Tools for what ... high health, easy snare removal, good healing, good aoe damage, aoe pulls, aoe snare, aoe lockdown. It's obnoxious but it's provided to any group that wants that sort of gameplay.

IMO, At the very least, AOE pulls should only work on monsters. Battle spirit could be used for other adjustments so as to not nerf pve.