horrid ball groups ruining pvp

olsborg

Agree with the OP 100%, ballgroups is just a kink in the fun rly.

Jaraal

The problem is that everybody wants to run offensive and defensive sets against these ball groups, which have little to no effect. Try running some defile/debuff gear for a change. Get a few people to run Akatosh's Law, Cyrodiil's Ward, and Baron Thirsk sets. Throw a Volcanic Rune in their path, activate your Inevitable or Proximity Detonation, then jump in alternating Lotus Fan (sticky aoe damage debuff) and Stampede (to keep up with the group and proc Akatosh) and see what happens.

There are other alternatives, but people need to stop trying to outdamage ball groups... because it's not going to happen. Change your way of thinking and focus on how to slow them down and reduce their healing and damage output. Until then, folks will just keep getting farmed over and over again.

ProudMary

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

FakeZavos wrote: »

ProudMary wrote: »

ZOS needs to nerf or limit cross healing significantly.

This is the solution that has been pointed out for years now, yet ZOS has yet to listen and give it a try to see if it works or not. Radiating regen is the the primary offender. Just nerf it or make it so it only effects one other player and ball groups will immediately be much easier to deal with.

Cross healing has been nerfed more times then u can count my dude. Healing springs is way worse then it used to be (used to be able to spam it). Radiating regeneration isnt wven close to what it was (heal used to be waaaay higher). Vigor has been nerfed multiple times (both versions used to be aoe, now only the yellow one) and so on.

Ball groups always adapt, u can try to nerf them one way and they will be more broken another way.

They haven't nerfed radiating regen, which is what people have been calling for and what I outlined in my post.

Are you kidding? When I started the game, if you dropped below a certain threshold it would not only transform into a burst heal, it would ALSO CLEANSE.

It would heal for 10k+ on a sufficiently strong build. It's been nerfed to hell and back if you consider how OP it used to be.

Irregardless, radiating regen is the main heal ball groups are crutching on at this time. Half or more of every member of the ball is spamming radiating regen continuously. So it's still OP and making the ball groups outheal virtually all damage. It's radiating regen than needs to limit how many players it can be active on at any given time, and it shouldn't stack multiple regens on any single player at one time, which it does do at this time. A single player can have 4 or 5 instances of radiating regen on them simultaneously. That should be limited to one single instance per player.

DirtyDeeds765

You guys realize that ballgrouping is how you're supposed to play *for maximum effectiveness in a group*, right? Mindlessly zerging around in an unorganized way is the way that's wrong. "Ballgrouping" is just a fancy way of saying playing in an organized, effective manner.

Choosing the right classes, abilities, sets, roles, and staying together as a unit and using ultimates together is what you're supposed to do if you want to play the game right. Its no different than coordinating an effective trial group. Are they a ballgroup who should stop trying to be the best they can be?

If you're also concerned about how "ballgrouping" is creating lag, that's ZOS's problem - not people who want to play the game effectively.

@DirtyDeeds765

Edit: added a few words in between the asterisks

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

Amottica

AvA/WvW has always had large groups. Some are well organized with a good leader and players that follow what the leaker asks of them and others are just random groups running together.

It is the way it is and will be.

Kaysha

Amottica wrote: »

AvA/WvW has always had large groups. Some are well organized with a good leader and players that follow what the leaker asks of them and others are just random groups running together.

It is the way it is and will be.

Let ZOS put all the helping hands for you aside (first of all hot stacking) and then noone will complain when you run with a "well organized with a good leader".

WaywardArgonian

Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »

I've got no problem with organised groups, that play well and have an advantage due to skill, experience etc, that is fine.

What, in your view, constitutes the difference between organized group play and a ballgroup?

Because the issue with the 'nerf ballgroups' pov is that many people will see a group stacking on crown and using some group (AOE) skills and call it a ballgroup. Just this weekend I was playing with a casual group that wiped some randoms, and we got whispered "damn ballgroup."

Another issue is that any attempt to nerf ballgroups will likely have a bigger effect on zergs. Turn off crossheals? Okay, as a smaller organized group we may not be able to tank an entire faction, but equally there are so many times where a push on a zerg fails because there are 3 Templars casting Practiced Incantation at the same time. Leave everyone responsible for their own healing and the people who play together every day on Discord are still going to do a much better job at it than most.

I think I have seen a few videos referenced in the OP and those reflect the idea that ballgroups (and by extension any AOE-based groups) play the way they do to compensate for a lack of individual skill. While that may be true for some, at the core of these groups are often some of the best players in their respective campaigns. It's going to be a rude awakening for players who think that by merely taking away some of the current aspects of group play, you are going to level the playing field.

biminirwb17_ESO

Pro Tip:

Ballgroups rarely hold onto a keep when they are running around the 3rd floor, and YOU get the dtick - I luv ballgroups and thanks for all the ap

Tarys

Heals_With_Orbs wrote: »

Ok, so now we have the new servers, thanks for that zos!

However although the lag has been improved it's not 100% perfect. One thing that still is a problem however are these dreadful ball groups that we all hate.

Why is it that they always seems to be AD / DC alliance that use them?

I won't mention any names as I don't think its allowed and not my style, but however this certain AD ball group usually appears at 10pm and basically grabs a scroll from EP and then proceeds to troll around the keeps for about 30 mins farming people for alliance points.

I'm not sure if that counts as harassment or not, or breaking tos etc, but they don't take the scroll and return it to their own keep, they just continue to mow people down while everyone is completely powerless, running around the fort walls, up and down the tower stairs.

Before people say "negate, negate" etc, I can tell you that none of that worked. These guys seem to have immunity to stuns, streak, negates. You throw some mines and they get tossed up-in the air and quickly run back to their groups.

Also that snake in the stars set (which was nerfed) is totally useless

Why is this kind of gameplay allowed in the first place? 12 people should not be immortal in a mmo pvp game

many people have complained about it, and well known streamers have posted youtube videos on how "cringe" they are, but we still are experiencing this despite a bundle of sets that were supposedly meant to counter them, (plaguebreak, dark convergence, snake in the stars), and ironically are being used by said groups to their advantage,

Surely this can't be good for ZOS as a whole as its pretty demotivating for some people to play pvp, failed sets that don't do the job as "promised" and the fact the game design allows people to be invincible is STILL a problem even though its been an issue for a few years.

I've got no problem with organised groups, that play well and have an advantage due to skill, experience etc, that is fine.

[snip]

These ball groups are still causing lag, and still ruining peoples enjoyment, causing skills not to work, and this is totally unacceptable

Maybe next time I will link a video

[edited for discussing disciplinary actions]

Sounds like EU GH where we only had yesterday 2 ballgroups doing farming runs (including porter camping) in a no longer ua keep. Unlike dozens of times before those 2 groups (AD and DC) even attacked each other. After one wiped the other (we EP randoms had no chance of getting any group down on our own -> hot stacking till kingdom come; lots of ae attacks; people shooting acid spray from the bottom (flags) to the first floor; people being at the other side of the keep and suddenly in your face; and so on ...) continued their farming until the keep was ua again by the other faction.

If that ain´t bullying and/or harassment i don´t know what counts as such. And no ... going to some other keep ain´t a good option. If they take the keep there is some high chance that you will get farmed when trying to take it back. Or you endanger your scrolls by "ignoring" them. And when your faction is already at 3 or 4 keeps and gets attacked by the premade groups like there is noone else around the hole gameplay becomes much less enjoyable.

LarsS

This complaint is as old as the game. ZOS have countless times introduces changes like dark convergence and plauge breaker to just mention two recent, I guess that one of the reasons were peoples complained about organized groups. You know how that ended.

This game were designed with group play in mind, look att the number of skills and sets that buff group play. The main problem I see is that many players try out pvp running with the zerg often with pve gear, of course one die then. Cyrodiil is great because it allows various playing styles from bombers to hard core guild raids, but it is very unforgiving for people new to pvp. My advice is to join a pvp guild, there you can get help to adapt, to the fun but difficult pvp environment.

Starlight_Knight

Zergs are what happens when so many cowards get together because they're scared of dying and bad at pvp, they create this superstructure of cowards that take it WAY to seriously.
[snip]
Yes OP you have a very good point, it's griefing, laggy and pointless.

[snip]

I think the AP reward structure is to blame for this behavior, but i don't know what the solution is, but it should be encouraging PVP not PVE-DOOR of empty keeps etc.
like the more players an enemy has killed the more they are worth for example. add that into defense ticks and there would be a nice incentive for people to kill those stupid Zergs and less incentive for those griefers to keep farming people.

[edited baiting comments]

biminirwb17_ESO

The answer is to buff Arrius, Glademist and Faregyl with a 3rd flag upstairs and stronger doors and walls. This will make ballgroups PVdoor the other 3 level keeps.

This would keep the scroll gates closed.

Ball groups have to stick together, they can't take a defended keep if they can't siege. This solution would let them have their fun, appease the just ignore them crowd and not let 12 people direct the flow of the map.

Four_Fingers

Actually as an organized group member I would love the above change, upstairs fights are the best.
Rams need nerfed because since they were buffed hardly anyone does walls or posterns anymore, it is always front doors.

Durham

VaranisArano wrote: »

OP, if you or your faction mates continue to throw yourselves at the enemy and they kill you over and over again, that doesn't constitute harassment or breaking the TOS by the enemy.

It means you're allowing yourselves to be farmed. You can try something different or walk away.

Also ZOS has never said that players are under any obligation to return Scrolls to their home keeps. I personally don't enjoy scroll farming, but it's consistently allowed and has been a staple of the campaigns for years.


I don't mean this to be snide, but since I see you've decided to try PVP relatively recently and are complaining about stuff like LOS and nightblade gankers, I thought it might be worth saying this in general:

Just because you don't enjoy fighting against a playstyle doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

I applaud your choice to start trying PvP, so I say this gently: some of this is a skill issue. The more experienced you get, the more you will learn to deal with LOS, with gankers, and yes with ball groups too. However, if you continue to run with random players or zerg or even in a small group, you will always be at a disadvantage compared to a ball group.

Ball Groups are the PVP equivalent of PVE score pushing trial groups. And with your PVE experience, I want you to think about how impossible it's been for ZOS to nerf those top PVE trials groups. Everything ZOS nerfs, they adapt to. Everything ZOS buffs, those trials groups use better than everyone else. It's not a question of why are PVE trials groups allowed to push the limits; its simply that 12 coordinated players in voice comms has a synergistic effect that ZOS finds near impossible to balance and who far outstrip the best efforts of the average Craglorn PUG.

That's what's going on with Cyrodiil Ball Groups.

They only seem immortal. Trust me - I've been a ball group healer - we're not immortal. The tactics like negates, and bombs, and pulling us apart one by one work, even though they are quite hard to pull off because, you know, we also know what works against us.

They seem immortal because they've used all the classes, skills, and sets that ZOS gives players in a practiced, coordinated group of 12 players to synergistic effect.

They also seem immortal because you're new and you're going up against them either solo or with the equivalent of an average Craglorn PUG at your back.

Genuine advice from a ball group healer: if you want to fight us properly, either join a ball group on your own faction or start honing your small scale skills or your bomber skills. Ball group players like me build to be a part of the group. CC or pull us out of the group and we're shockingly vulnerable to 1v1 combat. I mean, what am I gonna do, heal you to death? Nah, I'm gonna try to run back to my group, which is where you use your skills at small scale combat to kill me, and now my group is down a healer. Or I escape, because actually I'm reasonably good at staying alive while I escape back to my group, you know? It depends on how good you are, and yeah, that skill takes time and practice to acquire.

So that's my suggestion: by all means, practice the anti-ball tactics like negates and picking out individual players! I actually love it. Keeps things interesting on our end. Just expect that there'll be a lot of learning from failure along the way, just like it would take a ton of practice, effort, and failures if you wanted to progress in PVE trial scorepushing.

[snip]

Ball group is PVP on easy mode you dont have to be be good to be in one just slightly below average lol ... You are stacking heals/ you are running at max speed/ you cant be snared/ Siege wards everywhere ... The only reason that you die is you run into a lucky bomb while in negate!

"Genuine advice from a ball group healer: if you want to fight us properly, either join a ball group on your own faction or start honing your small scale skills or your bomber skills."

[snip]

No sir I played in ball groups no really that fun you should not even get PVP titles .... Small man PVP 2 to 6 man groups way more fun you actually see who you are killing. You acually have to target someone! [snip]

[Edited for baiting]

VaranisArano

Durham wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

OP, if you or your faction mates continue to throw yourselves at the enemy and they kill you over and over again, that doesn't constitute harassment or breaking the TOS by the enemy.

It means you're allowing yourselves to be farmed. You can try something different or walk away.

Also ZOS has never said that players are under any obligation to return Scrolls to their home keeps. I personally don't enjoy scroll farming, but it's consistently allowed and has been a staple of the campaigns for years.


I don't mean this to be snide, but since I see you've decided to try PVP relatively recently and are complaining about stuff like LOS and nightblade gankers, I thought it might be worth saying this in general:

Just because you don't enjoy fighting against a playstyle doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

I applaud your choice to start trying PvP, so I say this gently: some of this is a skill issue. The more experienced you get, the more you will learn to deal with LOS, with gankers, and yes with ball groups too. However, if you continue to run with random players or zerg or even in a small group, you will always be at a disadvantage compared to a ball group.

Ball Groups are the PVP equivalent of PVE score pushing trial groups. And with your PVE experience, I want you to think about how impossible it's been for ZOS to nerf those top PVE trials groups. Everything ZOS nerfs, they adapt to. Everything ZOS buffs, those trials groups use better than everyone else. It's not a question of why are PVE trials groups allowed to push the limits; its simply that 12 coordinated players in voice comms has a synergistic effect that ZOS finds near impossible to balance and who far outstrip the best efforts of the average Craglorn PUG.

That's what's going on with Cyrodiil Ball Groups.

They only seem immortal. Trust me - I've been a ball group healer - we're not immortal. The tactics like negates, and bombs, and pulling us apart one by one work, even though they are quite hard to pull off because, you know, we also know what works against us.

They seem immortal because they've used all the classes, skills, and sets that ZOS gives players in a practiced, coordinated group of 12 players to synergistic effect.

They also seem immortal because you're new and you're going up against them either solo or with the equivalent of an average Craglorn PUG at your back.

Genuine advice from a ball group healer: if you want to fight us properly, either join a ball group on your own faction or start honing your small scale skills or your bomber skills. Ball group players like me build to be a part of the group. CC or pull us out of the group and we're shockingly vulnerable to 1v1 combat. I mean, what am I gonna do, heal you to death? Nah, I'm gonna try to run back to my group, which is where you use your skills at small scale combat to kill me, and now my group is down a healer. Or I escape, because actually I'm reasonably good at staying alive while I escape back to my group, you know? It depends on how good you are, and yeah, that skill takes time and practice to acquire.

So that's my suggestion: by all means, practice the anti-ball tactics like negates and picking out individual players! I actually love it. Keeps things interesting on our end. Just expect that there'll be a lot of learning from failure along the way, just like it would take a ton of practice, effort, and failures if you wanted to progress in PVE trial scorepushing.

[snip]

Ball group is PVP on easy mode you dont have to be be good to be in one just slightly below average lol ... You are stacking heals/ you are running at max speed/ you cant be snared/ Siege wards everywhere ... The only reason that you die is you run into a lucky bomb while in negate!

"Genuine advice from a ball group healer: if you want to fight us properly, either join a ball group on your own faction or start honing your small scale skills or your bomber skills."

[snip]

No sir I played in ball groups no really that fun you should not even get PVP titles .... Small man PVP 2 to 6 man groups way more fun you actually see who you are killing. You acually have to target someone!
[snip]

Even ZOS admitted that they didn't see performance improvements when they tested a series of changes that dramatically impacted the ability of ball groups to play in that style.

Anecdotally, some players saw improvements, but ZOS never saw anything significant enough to make changes based on performance. Even no crossheals was done for a while because ZOS liked the behavioral changes rather than performance reasons, and reverted because ZOS realized it was unfair to let players not be able to heal the guy next to them who was the target of a Vicious Death bomb, etc.

When even ZOS can't find a connection, your bitterness seems misplaced.

As for respect...I don't care? You have fun doing what you do. I'll have fun doing what I do. By all means, offer the OP your own advice on how your small scale group defeats ball groups, I'm sure they'd appreciate it!

[Edited for Quote]

Kaysha

The problem aren´t ballgroups by themselves. I am fully on the side of @DirtyDeeds765 when he says it´s the suppused way to play effectively.
It´s just that the tools given by ZOS are too far in fervor of ballgroups. The gap is too big.
Being organized and on discord with having the right classes and right setups is advantage enough.
There should not be additional bonuses like hot stacking.

An organized group should always have an edge over ungrouped randoms. Just not to this rediculous degree that they have right now.

And sorry for spelling errors. Not my first language.

acastanza_ESO

When you have 100% barrier uptime with 12+ stacked Vigors and Radiatings ticking constantly and half the group running Earthgore you're no longer playing the game. You're abusing it.

That is what ballgroups do. It needs to be addressed.

Neoauspex

The resource sapping sets would be a really good counter for ball groups if they didn't suck

Four_Fingers

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

When you have 100% barrier uptime with 12+ stacked Vigors and Radiatings ticking constantly and half the group running Earthgore you're no longer playing the game. You're abusing it.

That is what ballgroups do. It needs to be addressed.

If this was reality that group comp would truly bad and they would be the worst group on the server with low dps.

Amottica

Kaysha wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

AvA/WvW has always had large groups. Some are well organized with a good leader and players that follow what the leaker asks of them and others are just random groups running together.

It is the way it is and will be.

Let ZOS put all the helping hands for you aside (first of all hot stacking) and then noone will complain when you run with a "well organized with a good leader".

Yep, just like dots stacking.

I was merely pointed out the reality of AvA/WvW type of designs. I do not zerg surf as I run with a well-organized group. We run small groups and destroy the large zergs. A good group can melt the zergs easily when they know what they are doing.

However, some consider zergs to be any group of players they die and that includes small groups of skilled players that know how to play well as a group.

Thecompton73

Four_Fingers wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

When you have 100% barrier uptime with 12+ stacked Vigors and Radiatings ticking constantly and half the group running Earthgore you're no longer playing the game. You're abusing it.

That is what ballgroups do. It needs to be addressed.

If this was reality that group comp would truly bad and they would be the worst group on the server with low dps.

They're not concerned with high individual DPS numbers because they're not trying to burn a hm trail boss. They're trying to collectively do more than 40K each global cool-down for a few seconds when they pop ultimates and charge, which is enough to take out 95% of players in Cyro. Then they go back to casting heals/buffs and kiting as they build up Ulti again.
And they really aren't that low DPS to begin with since they've got people wearing sets giving nearly 100% Uptime for Major Courage, Minor Courage, Major Force and Minor Force plus unique buffs like the 307 Wd/Sd from Powerful Assault.

mocap

Jaraal wrote: »

Try running some defile/debuff gear for a change. Get a few people to run Akatosh's Law, Cyrodiil's Ward, and Baron Thirsk sets

Theoretically, 10 players with Syvarra + Venomous smite + Skoria, then Soul Split or Growing Swarm if possible, and spam Acid Spray... can apply nearly 40 DoTs to each player in ballgroup. And since they don't use Cleanse, this can kinda negate most, if not all, stacked HoTs.

Though i don't know if the dots can stack in such quantities.

Casandra

Ball groups run thru and heal thru everything you just said..... They stop when people leave and they get bored and jump out! They don't die!

Rlacoste

unkillable ball groups, desyncs, cheats, exploiters, oil animation not showing. fun game

The problem with fighting ball groups is the desyncs they cause, the lag they cause, dark convergence is bugged set, it pulls you from 50m at times,(lag). They exploit every exploit they can find. DK who leaps you for the desync, the temp spamming radiant oppression for the desync in case DK didn't desync you , the NB desync, they do know what they are doing. Trying to make you quit the game. ZoS allows that, how weird. Today Cyro population is really low. 2-3 bars on a Saturday afternoon?

It isn't more nerfs that this game needs.

Miracle19

Four_Fingers wrote: »

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

When you have 100% barrier uptime with 12+ stacked Vigors and Radiatings ticking constantly and half the group running Earthgore you're no longer playing the game. You're abusing it.

That is what ballgroups do. It needs to be addressed.

If this was reality that group comp would truly bad and they would be the worst group on the server with low dps.

There are ball groups that do run this, and versus the avg player they’d seem unkillable and insanely strong. But you are right, they do have low damage and versus a ball group that is built correctly, they will smoke that setup

Anne13

Not to mention broken set ups they use and abuse. Getting pulled in hit with an 18k brawler and 49k plague infected..... Broke af and they Ruin what pvp should be.

No fun dying over and over and nothing you or any grouo can do about it.

The problem is to beat a zerg you need a bigger zerg. And it just keeps going in a vicious circle. This creates even more lag..

cool6654

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Well said @VaranisArano.

no

VaranisArano

cool6654 wrote: »

Four_Fingers wrote: »

Well said @VaranisArano.

no

Gets notified.

Realizes it's a one word reply on a three months old thread.

You have a great day!

Tonturri

VaranisArano wrote: »

OP, if you or your faction mates continue to throw yourselves at the enemy and they kill you over and over again, that doesn't constitute harassment or breaking the TOS by the enemy.

It means you're allowing yourselves to be farmed. You can try something different or walk away.

Also ZOS has never said that players are under any obligation to return Scrolls to their home keeps. I personally don't enjoy scroll farming, but it's consistently allowed and has been a staple of the campaigns for years.


I don't mean this to be snide, but since I see you've decided to try PVP relatively recently and are complaining about stuff like LOS and nightblade gankers, I thought it might be worth saying this in general:

Just because you don't enjoy fighting against a playstyle doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed.

I applaud your choice to start trying PvP, so I say this gently: some of this is a skill issue. The more experienced you get, the more you will learn to deal with LOS, with gankers, and yes with ball groups too. However, if you continue to run with random players or zerg or even in a small group, you will always be at a disadvantage compared to a ball group.

Ball Groups are the PVP equivalent of PVE score pushing trial groups. And with your PVE experience, I want you to think about how impossible it's been for ZOS to nerf those top PVE trials groups. Everything ZOS nerfs, they adapt to. Everything ZOS buffs, those trials groups use better than everyone else. It's not a question of why are PVE trials groups allowed to push the limits; its simply that 12 coordinated players in voice comms has a synergistic effect that ZOS finds near impossible to balance and who far outstrip the best efforts of the average Craglorn PUG.

That's what's going on with Cyrodiil Ball Groups.

They only seem immortal. Trust me - I've been a ball group healer - we're not immortal. The tactics like negates, and bombs, and pulling us apart one by one work, even though they are quite hard to pull off because, you know, we also know what works against us.

They seem immortal because they've used all the classes, skills, and sets that ZOS gives players in a practiced, coordinated group of 12 players to synergistic effect.

They also seem immortal because you're new and you're going up against them either solo or with the equivalent of an average Craglorn PUG at your back.

Genuine advice from a ball group healer: if you want to fight us properly, either join a ball group on your own faction or start honing your small scale skills or your bomber skills. Ball group players like me build to be a part of the group. CC or pull us out of the group and we're shockingly vulnerable to 1v1 combat. I mean, what am I gonna do, heal you to death? Nah, I'm gonna try to run back to my group, which is where you use your skills at small scale combat to kill me, and now my group is down a healer. Or I escape, because actually I'm reasonably good at staying alive while I escape back to my group, you know? It depends on how good you are, and yeah, that skill takes time and practice to acquire.

So that's my suggestion: by all means, practice the anti-ball tactics like negates and picking out individual players! I actually love it. Keeps things interesting on our end. Just expect that there'll be a lot of learning from failure along the way, just like it would take a ton of practice, effort, and failures if you wanted to progress in PVE trial scorepushing.

Returnee player here, perhaps slightly off topic but I wanted to ask an odd question - do you know of any resources on bombing organized groups? Kind of a 'hey, can you give me the knife I'm gonna stab you with' but I figured why not. I'm hoping to get into bombing, but I've only found vids and builds that seem geared towards bombing less organized groups (people sitting there attacking a keep door, no HoTs running, no buffs, etc). There are setups like rushing death + vicious death, but the Rushing proc has a 2 sec delay before it does the pull and AoE. I've also seen vicious death + mechanical acuity (admittedly on Console vids), with the difference being the first seems to have more overall damage but more vulnerability, while the other just crams a few abilities into a single instance but makes sure they crit. I'm curious about the differences in bombing organized groups vs disorganized blobs - I imagine the armor buffs present and HoTs rolling would mean that anything that takes more than a second to pull off (so no rushing death proc via gap closre, then waiting two seconds for everything to go off) is a no-go due to damage mitigation and heals ticking in between skills.