Blocking While Barswapping: A Bad Idea

Stamicka

From the notes: Bar swapping while you are actively bracing (holding Block) will no longer temporarily disable Block. This should significantly reduce the situations of dying while bar swapping. Tanks rejoice, your power will no longer know bounds!


I get it ZOS, you are still wanting to make the combat system more accessible. However, this change can have a very negative impact on PvP. As is, blocking is already extraordinarily strong in PvP scenarios. It mitigates huge amounts of damage and not a ton of things counter it. One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period. Having block get dropped during barswaps provides a window where perma block players can be stunned or killed.

We don't need to contribute more to the tank meta that is already in PvP. We also definitely shouldn't be removing skill based counterplay that Veteran players have utilized for years. Please stop shrinking the skill gap like this.

This change was made purely with PvE in mind, I get it, but even there this change is not needed.

FantasticFreddie

Oh really now.

This is a welcome change. Stop finding things to whine about and let us enjoy a relatively peaceful pts.

Remathilis

PvP is why healers and tanks can't have nice things...

FantasticFreddie

It's just so silly. You can't perma block ANYWAYS, you run out of resources. No one was timing their burst in pvp to line up with a bar swap. No one. What a dumb thing to complain about when THEY NERFED ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR SOLO PLAYSTYLES with the double whammy to boneyard and harmony trait

p00tx

Stamicka wrote: »

From the notes: Bar swapping while you are actively bracing (holding Block) will no longer temporarily disable Block. This should significantly reduce the situations of dying while bar swapping. Tanks rejoice, your power will no longer know bounds!


I get it ZOS, you are still wanting to make the combat system more accessible. However, this change can have a very negative impact on PvP. As is, blocking is already extraordinarily strong in PvP scenarios. It mitigates huge amounts of damage and not a ton of things counter it. One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period. Having block get dropped during barswaps provides a window where perma block players can be stunned or killed.

We don't need to contribute more to the tank meta that is already in PvP. We also definitely shouldn't be removing skill based counterplay that Veteran players have utilized for years. Please stop shrinking the skill gap like this.

This change was made purely with PvE in mind, I get it, but even there this change is not needed.

This change is 100% needed in PvE in the newer content where mechanics require heavy blocking. It's a fantastic change actually.

Stamicka

FantasticFreddie wrote: »

It's just so silly. You can't perma block ANYWAYS, you run out of resources. No one was timing their burst in pvp to line up with a bar swap. No one. What a dumb thing to complain about when THEY NERFED ONE OF THE MOST POPULAR SOLO PLAYSTYLES with the double whammy to boneyard and harmony trait

Lining up combos with barswaps is something I do all the time. I've seen other players do it too, you're probably just oblivious to it.

Yes, they nerfed bombing on necromancers. That has nothing to do with this post.

ForumBully

It's not like this change is creating a problem tank in PvP that doesn't exist now or hasn't existed always in PvP...trolls gonna find a way to troll.

Zezin

Stamicka wrote: »

From the notes: Bar swapping while you are actively bracing (holding Block) will no longer temporarily disable Block. This should significantly reduce the situations of dying while bar swapping. Tanks rejoice, your power will no longer know bounds!


I get it ZOS, you are still wanting to make the combat system more accessible. However, this change can have a very negative impact on PvP. As is, blocking is already extraordinarily strong in PvP scenarios. It mitigates huge amounts of damage and not a ton of things counter it. One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period. Having block get dropped during barswaps provides a window where perma block players can be stunned or killed.

We don't need to contribute more to the tank meta that is already in PvP. We also definitely shouldn't be removing skill based counterplay that Veteran players have utilized for years. Please stop shrinking the skill gap like this.

This change was made purely with PvE in mind, I get it, but even there this change is not needed.

This is the most L take of L takes, there are skills that break through block you know.

Stamicka

p00tx wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

From the notes: Bar swapping while you are actively bracing (holding Block) will no longer temporarily disable Block. This should significantly reduce the situations of dying while bar swapping. Tanks rejoice, your power will no longer know bounds!


I get it ZOS, you are still wanting to make the combat system more accessible. However, this change can have a very negative impact on PvP. As is, blocking is already extraordinarily strong in PvP scenarios. It mitigates huge amounts of damage and not a ton of things counter it. One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period. Having block get dropped during barswaps provides a window where perma block players can be stunned or killed.

We don't need to contribute more to the tank meta that is already in PvP. We also definitely shouldn't be removing skill based counterplay that Veteran players have utilized for years. Please stop shrinking the skill gap like this.

This change was made purely with PvE in mind, I get it, but even there this change is not needed.

This change is 100% needed in PvP in the newer content where mechanics require heavy blocking. It's a fantastic change actually.

I disagree. If you know a heavy attack or any hard hitting attack is coming, just don't barswap. It adds an element of skill and some more fun to the tanking role in PvE. I guess people enjoy the combat system getting watered down though.

Araneae6537

I hadn’t thought it needed as it seems logical to me that weapon swapping would lower your block. Personally, I would rather skills such as Dark Deal not drop block (most of my tanking has been done on sorc). That skills such as this drop block is, to me, less intuitive and more frustrating than weapon swap dropping block.

WrathOfInnos

Good change. I highly doubt anyone was predicting the 0.1s where an opponent was bar swapping and timing their burst to land in that window.

Stamicka

Zezin wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

From the notes: Bar swapping while you are actively bracing (holding Block) will no longer temporarily disable Block. This should significantly reduce the situations of dying while bar swapping. Tanks rejoice, your power will no longer know bounds!


I get it ZOS, you are still wanting to make the combat system more accessible. However, this change can have a very negative impact on PvP. As is, blocking is already extraordinarily strong in PvP scenarios. It mitigates huge amounts of damage and not a ton of things counter it. One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period. Having block get dropped during barswaps provides a window where perma block players can be stunned or killed.

We don't need to contribute more to the tank meta that is already in PvP. We also definitely shouldn't be removing skill based counterplay that Veteran players have utilized for years. Please stop shrinking the skill gap like this.

This change was made purely with PvE in mind, I get it, but even there this change is not needed.

This is the most L take of L takes, there are skills that break through block you know.

Yes, a few stuns go through block. Fear, javelin, and petrify come to mind. If you ever find yourself in a fight with a player who properly utilizes block weaving and knows when to block your burst, you will greatly appreciate the small window that barswapping provided. It was a small combat detail that added more depth to the combat system. I hate to see these things removed, cause it adds up over time.

p00tx

Stamicka wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

From the notes: Bar swapping while you are actively bracing (holding Block) will no longer temporarily disable Block. This should significantly reduce the situations of dying while bar swapping. Tanks rejoice, your power will no longer know bounds!


I get it ZOS, you are still wanting to make the combat system more accessible. However, this change can have a very negative impact on PvP. As is, blocking is already extraordinarily strong in PvP scenarios. It mitigates huge amounts of damage and not a ton of things counter it. One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period. Having block get dropped during barswaps provides a window where perma block players can be stunned or killed.

We don't need to contribute more to the tank meta that is already in PvP. We also definitely shouldn't be removing skill based counterplay that Veteran players have utilized for years. Please stop shrinking the skill gap like this.

This change was made purely with PvE in mind, I get it, but even there this change is not needed.

This change is 100% needed in PvP in the newer content where mechanics require heavy blocking. It's a fantastic change actually.

I disagree. If you know a heavy attack or any hard hitting attack is coming, just don't barswap. It adds an element of skill and some more fun to the tanking role in PvE. I guess people enjoy the combat system getting watered down though.

I'm guessing you've never experienced Maelstrom on Taleria hm while trying to keep your uptimes high. Not being able to barswap while having to nearly permablock a mech makes a tank nothing but a padded punching bag. This will allow tanks to fulfill their role better. That's not watered down, it's playing better.

maximusrex45

Stamicka wrote: »

From the notes: Bar swapping while you are actively bracing (holding Block) will no longer temporarily disable Block. This should significantly reduce the situations of dying while bar swapping. Tanks rejoice, your power will no longer know bounds!


I get it ZOS, you are still wanting to make the combat system more accessible. However, this change can have a very negative impact on PvP. As is, blocking is already extraordinarily strong in PvP scenarios. It mitigates huge amounts of damage and not a ton of things counter it. One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period. Having block get dropped during barswaps provides a window where perma block players can be stunned or killed.

We don't need to contribute more to the tank meta that is already in PvP. We also definitely shouldn't be removing skill based counterplay that Veteran players have utilized for years. Please stop shrinking the skill gap like this.

This change was made purely with PvE in mind, I get it, but even there this change is not needed.

It is past time that ZOS stop accommodating bads in PvP and instead making Tanking as a role not suck, this change helps move in that direction and is the right thing to do.

Lydawobbles

This is where you can always see the people who only PVP lol

As a PVE tank, and with lag sometimes happening on barswap, this is a very welcome change for me. I'm hoping it'll also help mitigate that bug with update 36 where block would suddenly drop if you used certain skills and you'd have to cast twice. that was no fun, I quit doing dungeons for a while because of it

Lydawobbles

maybe someday they'll have separate combat teams for PVE and PVP, but for now, they have to find a middle ground. And tanks not being able to block properly in PVE is not working

Stamicka

Lydawobbles wrote: »

This is where you can always see the people who only PVP lol

As a PVE tank, and with lag sometimes happening on barswap, this is a very welcome change for me. I'm hoping it'll also help mitigate that bug with update 36 where block would suddenly drop if you used certain skills and you'd have to cast twice. that was no fun, I quit doing dungeons for a while because of it

Wrong. I’ve completed many trifectas, even some as a tank. I’ve PvEd plenty and still disagree with this change. I actually preferred having to be mindful of when to barswap to reapply buffs as a tank. It added some depth to the role and made it feel more active.

maximusrex45

Stamicka wrote: »

I disagree. If you know a heavy attack or any hard hitting attack is coming, just don't barswap. It adds an element of skill and some more fun to the tanking role in PvE. I guess people enjoy the combat system getting watered down though.

It is clear you are inexperienced and don't know what you are talking about as this is simply not accurate. Tanks being able to do their job properly is not "watering down" anything. The change will add the need for more skill to PvP, making it more fun and interesting.

Stamicka

p00tx wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

p00tx wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

From the notes: Bar swapping while you are actively bracing (holding Block) will no longer temporarily disable Block. This should significantly reduce the situations of dying while bar swapping. Tanks rejoice, your power will no longer know bounds!


I get it ZOS, you are still wanting to make the combat system more accessible. However, this change can have a very negative impact on PvP. As is, blocking is already extraordinarily strong in PvP scenarios. It mitigates huge amounts of damage and not a ton of things counter it. One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period. Having block get dropped during barswaps provides a window where perma block players can be stunned or killed.

We don't need to contribute more to the tank meta that is already in PvP. We also definitely shouldn't be removing skill based counterplay that Veteran players have utilized for years. Please stop shrinking the skill gap like this.

This change was made purely with PvE in mind, I get it, but even there this change is not needed.

This change is 100% needed in PvP in the newer content where mechanics require heavy blocking. It's a fantastic change actually.

I disagree. If you know a heavy attack or any hard hitting attack is coming, just don't barswap. It adds an element of skill and some more fun to the tanking role in PvE. I guess people enjoy the combat system getting watered down though.

I'm guessing you've never experienced Maelstrom on Taleria hm while trying to keep your uptimes high. Not being able to barswap while having to nearly permablock a mech makes a tank nothing but a padded punching bag. This will allow tanks to fulfill their role better. That's not watered down, it's playing better.

Except there are tanks that have successfully gotten the trifecta for the trial you’re talking about with the current state of block. So you’re basically saying this change will make it easier for tanks who couldn’t do it before. That’s called watering down.

Stamicka

maximusrex45 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I disagree. If you know a heavy attack or any hard hitting attack is coming, just don't barswap. It adds an element of skill and some more fun to the tanking role in PvE. I guess people enjoy the combat system getting watered down though.

It is clear you are inexperienced and don't know what you are talking about as this is simply not accurate. Tanks being able to do their job properly is not "watering down" anything. The change will add the need for more skill to PvP, making it more fun and interesting.

You’re the confused one here. If a boss is ramping up a heavy attack or something that will kill you, don’t barswap at that time. Learn the bosses attack pattern and over time you will see the windows where it is safe to barswap and apply your debuffs. This is just part of the skill gap of tanking. Barswap deaths can be fixed with practice. You just have to pay attention to the boss and time the bar swaps accordingly. I appreciated this aspect of tanking. Yes I’ve died from barswapping before, but it was a simple mistake to learn from.

ForumBully

I don't see how this adds anything to PvP that isn't already there and already annoying and has always been there. If it helps anyone at all anywhere, good on them

Vevvev

As an X-PvE Tank this is great, although I can see the PvP problems. Sadly the time window you could exploit a tank losing block in PvP was just too narrow to be feasible. It was more pure luck on your part than anything else which is why stuns that go through block exist.

If anything, the things that need buffs are those very stuns, and I still feel like ZOS needs to fix Vampire's Mesmerize ability. Mesmerize goes through block and lasts 5 seconds, but only stuns the target if they're looking at you which rarely happens when facing a smart block tank.

FantasticFreddie

There is a critical shortage of tanks for pve content, and part of that is that it is a difficult and often frustrating role to learn.

I fully support these changes. Let tanks have some love.

Dragonnord

Stamicka wrote: »

One way to kill someone who relies heavily on block is to expect their barswap and save your burst for that brief time period

Wow! You can really time something that lasts half of half a second? Wow! You must be Superman playing ESO.

React

It's telling that so many people in this thread can't fathom timing someone's barswap.

Stamicka is totally right about this. Blocking is already arguably the strongest defensive mechanic in PVP, and easily the most forgiving. One of the only ways to reliably kill someone that perma/spam blocks is to burst them when they go to their frontbar, and follow up with a prediction of when they'll barswap to try to heal on their backbar. This change removes that highly skillful counterplay, and further buffs an already EXTREMELY forgiving and easy to use defensive mechanics.

I get the frustration from the PVE side - I am sure this change is welcomed amongst pve tanks. But please, don't belittle PVP concerns because you don't understand them. I think we can all agree that PVE and PVP should've been separately balanced starting years ago.

OBJnoob

Just got home from work... Haven't had a chance to read the patch notes yet... So I might be about to say something wrong and crazy.

Is it possible this isn't so much a change they planned but somehow the fix to the block bug and it has to be this way?

sneakymitchell

Use sets and skills that give out multiple hits then you will see them not able to block forever

p00tx

Stamicka wrote: »

maximusrex45 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

I disagree. If you know a heavy attack or any hard hitting attack is coming, just don't barswap. It adds an element of skill and some more fun to the tanking role in PvE. I guess people enjoy the combat system getting watered down though.

It is clear you are inexperienced and don't know what you are talking about as this is simply not accurate. Tanks being able to do their job properly is not "watering down" anything. The change will add the need for more skill to PvP, making it more fun and interesting.

You’re the confused one here. If a boss is ramping up a heavy attack or something that will kill you, don’t barswap at that time. Learn the bosses attack pattern and over time you will see the windows where it is safe to barswap and apply your debuffs. This is just part of the skill gap of tanking. Barswap deaths can be fixed with practice. You just have to pay attention to the boss and time the bar swaps accordingly. I appreciated this aspect of tanking. Yes I’ve died from barswapping before, but it was a simple mistake to learn from.

There's a chance you could be right in your assessment, but even if you are, that's not a bad thing. The idea that the majority of us are behind is making the content more accessible to more players. I don't feel like I need to belong to an exclusive club in order to enjoy my completions and achievements in this game. I'd rather take some more folks along for the ride.

BahometZ

ahahahahahahahahaha

The_Titan_Tim

What about RP? How do you block when sheathing your weapon to take the other one out?

WrathOfInnos

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

What about RP? How do you block when sheathing your weapon to take the other one out?

This is ESO, you don't need weapons to block. Just a magic glow shield that floats in front of you and consumes stamina somehow. Feel free to use it while unarmed.

From a QoL perspective this is good for tanks. It makes the role easier to learn, less frustrating and more forgiving, and should help to even out the long running tank shortage.