Stamsorc's issues in U37 - what needs to be fixed

Sergykid

StaticWave wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

u just keep throwing "no u wrong" argument to whoever answers.
the "5 year main" doesn't mean u r master of it. I often see 6-12 months players better than those that played for years.
just like i often encounter 5 star pvp rank players that have no clue what they are doing.

sorc changed and it looks like u remained on how it was. This is just like if templars come here and complain that they are too weak but they still spam sweeps.

sorc was easy to use to get high results. Now it's hard to use to get high results. As it should be.
in high mmr bgs i often encounter sorcs that actually know how to play it, a good sorc doesn't die unless he accepts to but also has the damage.

no changes should be done to sorcs, maybe a nerf to streak stun to only work from flank and a buff to class survivability, but nothing much.

This will be my last response to you because from your response, you clearly lack experience playing my class.

1) I specifically used the “no you’re wrong argument” for you, and only you. Notice how I don’t use it for other people who did not try to shut my thread down.
[...]
2) Apart from the above mentioned PvP content, I am also an avid dueler.
So if I, a very seasoned stamsorc main, still struggle to survive against good players on better classes, then how do you expect an average player to do well?
[...]
You don’t have to agree with me, but if you’re gonna try to shut me down at least put in some effort. Saying “I see good stamsorcs do well” is not it. I also do well against mid tier players, but that’s not proving anything now does it?

i don't shut u down, u just refuse to accept that sorc is harder to play now in order to get high results, u r still stuck from when it was easy to play to get high results.

u told more people here they were wrong, just not all the times with the word "wrong". I don't really care what u tell me cuz i know the truth.

cp doesn't prove anything especially against weaker targets on which anything works really. And duels are worse proof of and for anything.

everyone struggles to survive, that's how it is against a good opponent. Sorc doesn't struggle harder than other classes, instead of a dk coag u cast a streak.

and that's the point i keep saying, if beginners struggle it's because sorc is not as easy as it was anymore, fortunately.
and when i say that i see sorcs do well i mean against good players, i know what i look at, i know what i fight against, surprise u r not the only "years old seasoned veteran"

PhoenixGrey

Sergykid wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

u just keep throwing "no u wrong" argument to whoever answers.
the "5 year main" doesn't mean u r master of it. I often see 6-12 months players better than those that played for years.
just like i often encounter 5 star pvp rank players that have no clue what they are doing.

sorc changed and it looks like u remained on how it was. This is just like if templars come here and complain that they are too weak but they still spam sweeps.

sorc was easy to use to get high results. Now it's hard to use to get high results. As it should be.
in high mmr bgs i often encounter sorcs that actually know how to play it, a good sorc doesn't die unless he accepts to but also has the damage.

no changes should be done to sorcs, maybe a nerf to streak stun to only work from flank and a buff to class survivability, but nothing much.

This will be my last response to you because from your response, you clearly lack experience playing my class.

1) I specifically used the “no you’re wrong argument” for you, and only you. Notice how I don’t use it for other people who did not try to shut my thread down.
[...]
2) Apart from the above mentioned PvP content, I am also an avid dueler.
So if I, a very seasoned stamsorc main, still struggle to survive against good players on better classes, then how do you expect an average player to do well?
[...]
You don’t have to agree with me, but if you’re gonna try to shut me down at least put in some effort. Saying “I see good stamsorcs do well” is not it. I also do well against mid tier players, but that’s not proving anything now does it?

i don't shut u down, u just refuse to accept that sorc is harder to play now in order to get high results, u r still stuck from when it was easy to play to get high results.

u told more people here they were wrong, just not all the times with the word "wrong". I don't really care what u tell me cuz i know the truth.

cp doesn't prove anything especially against weaker targets on which anything works really. And duels are worse proof of and for anything.

everyone struggles to survive, that's how it is against a good opponent. Sorc doesn't struggle harder than other classes, instead of a dk coag u cast a streak.

and that's the point i keep saying, if beginners struggle it's because sorc is not as easy as it was anymore, fortunately.
and when i say that i see sorcs do well i mean against good players, i know what i look at, i know what i fight against, surprise u r not the only "years old seasoned veteran"

I can play nb or ice warden and 1vx even average or good players. This is playing these specs for few weeks

Why will I play a hard class like sorc and get subpar results ? Skill is capped by ZOS on sorc and not by players

StaticWave

As of right now, the PTS patch notes included HP scaling for Hardened Ward. While I'm not in favor of that direction, it's still going to benefit stamsorc's survivability. Not sure about magsorc though since they don't really benefit.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

As of right now, the PTS patch notes included HP scaling for Hardened Ward. While I'm not in favor of that direction, it's still going to benefit stamsorc's survivability. Not sure about magsorc though since they don't really benefit.

It does help magsorc a bit. At the very least it allows builds to focus purely on health, sustain and damage instead of health, mag, sustain, damage and everything else that's required. It's still not a proper burst heal, but it's a start at least.

thesarahandcompany

Imma say no to the burst heal. Why does the fastest, most mobile class in the game also need a burst heal? You don't brawl.

PhoenixGrey

thesarahandcompany wrote: »

Imma say no to the burst heal. Why does the fastest, most mobile class in the game also need a burst heal? You don't brawl.

The fastest, most mobile class in the game is NB and it has a burst heal

now all classes are more mobile than sorc due to the mist form change

OBJnoob

Yeah Phoenix is right. Getting major and minor expedition isn't as rare as it used to be... Everybody is fast these days. How fastER or slowER you are really just comes down to CP and jewelry traits, not class.

There is a lot to be said for streak. Less now with the mist form changes but still. But it isn't the end-all be-all. There are abilities that are similar in effectiveness if not visually.

Sorcs need a burst heal. Everybody needs a burst heal. It doesn't have to be a new creation, just fix one of the two they have.

OBJnoob

I don't know if the health scaling ward is helpful at all for sorcs-- but I'm thinking it might be "something" for stamsorcs. Less helpful for magsorcs I think.

When the patch drops on Xbox, if things are still the same, I think I'm going to try maining a stamsorc.

Sword Singer front bar-- rally for a burst heal-- wrecking blow for major berserk. Clever alch back bar, and Gaze of Sithis. Should be a lot of damage and max HP. We'll see.

FirmamentOfStars

Any sorc next patch:
- Vate ice staff backbar
- Master dual wield frontbar
- Maarselok monster set
- Maras balm on body (maybe snake star if you feel confident and sacrifice some of the above mentioned things for tankyness)
- 40k hp and like 17k/22k of your other resource pools

StaticWave

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

Any sorc next patch:
- Vate ice staff backbar
- Master dual wield frontbar
- Maarselok monster set
- Maras balm on body (maybe snake star if you feel confident and sacrifice some of the above mentioned things for tankyness)
- 40k hp and like 17k/22k of your other resource pools

Already ran a similar build 6 months ago. It's good against average players but lacks damage to pose a real threat to better players.

SkaraMinoc

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

- Vate ice staff backbar
- Master dual wield frontbar

Vateshran 2H + BRP dw backbar is the most stat dense combination in U37 for Stam Sorc. Let's take a look

Perfected Frenzied Momentum

• +300 damage (~400 damage with modifiers or roughly 8% damage give or take 1-2%)
• +10% damage (Major Berserk from the new Wrecking Blow)
• Major Brutality/Sorcery
  

Perfected Spectral Cloak

• Major Expedition
• Major Evasion
• +6% damage done
• -6% damage taken
• backbar procs poisons and 2x enchants even while on front bar

In total, these two sets provide 24% damage and 26% AoE damage reduction.

400 damage (8%) + Major Berserk (10%) + Spectral Cloak (6%) = 24% damage
Major Evasion (20%) + Spectral Cloak (6%) = 26% AoE damage reduction

You can't do better with 4 item slots.

SkaraMinoc

Stam Sorc won't do well with the new Hardened Ward since it uses precious Magicka needed for Dark Deal and Streak.

Brrrofski

I hate those "I see plenty of good sorc" arguements.

Yeh, you might.

But put that player on a DK or NB and they'd wreck even more.

Udrath

I think it’s better to wear malacath for nearly all
Classes beneath 36% crit chance or something around that, a least if you’re building for damage. You still crit with it on. Otherwise torc of tonal imo seems really well made for sorc if you use streak a lot and going all damage glyphs.

As far as burst healing goes just use a powered resto staff and slot the burst heal.Stam sorc has always kinda been reliant on weapon skill/guild skills which isn’t a bad a thing.

noblecron

Another thing I noticed and this is way more of a nitpick than an actual QOL thing, I really wish that Necro skills weren't the highest cost skills in the game next to Vamp. I also wish the necro skills weren't so bright cause gg they give me a headache after a while, especially that sickly green from stam cro skills

Caribou77

All the StamSorcs I see in pvp use blood craze to help with healing while also dishing out very high damage. Masters Dual Wield fbar, Vatesh ice staff backbar.

One of my 2 mains is a Magsorc, so, a bit selfishly, and a bit not, buffing Stamsorc seems a lower priority.

LittlePinkDot

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nice clip. Yeah, I've done some experimenting with pets on stamsorcs as well. Also used a full (5,) light armor stamsorc for a while in hopes of getting more crit/penetration. Both experiments actually worked pretty well but, like you say, that was a different time.

I do disagree that the pet should be single-barred. The pet isn't only a heal it is also a damage over time ability, if I may call it that, one that doesn't need to be cast (except the once.) So it is right for it to take up two slots... Or at least it would be with my proposed change.

I suppose, in addition to my proposal of not being targetable/killable it could also be made to function more like a 20/30 second buff that you need to recast. Then I would be comfortable with it only taking one slot and persisting from bar to bar.

Personally, I would be in favor of a rework to Dark Deal as a burst heal. One morph is a true burst heal, whereas the other restores resources in a smaller amount. That is what I suggested in my older sorc buff threads.

Leave my dark deal alone. I need it to maintain stamina for expensive skills like Whirling blades and shrouded daggers.
The magicka morph should be the burst heal. Takes pressure off your stamina.
Besides, magsorc has better use of restoration staff anyway.

Dark Deal, which was what I suggested, is the magicka morph…

Dark deal restores stamina.

StaticWave

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nice clip. Yeah, I've done some experimenting with pets on stamsorcs as well. Also used a full (5,) light armor stamsorc for a while in hopes of getting more crit/penetration. Both experiments actually worked pretty well but, like you say, that was a different time.

I do disagree that the pet should be single-barred. The pet isn't only a heal it is also a damage over time ability, if I may call it that, one that doesn't need to be cast (except the once.) So it is right for it to take up two slots... Or at least it would be with my proposed change.

I suppose, in addition to my proposal of not being targetable/killable it could also be made to function more like a 20/30 second buff that you need to recast. Then I would be comfortable with it only taking one slot and persisting from bar to bar.

Personally, I would be in favor of a rework to Dark Deal as a burst heal. One morph is a true burst heal, whereas the other restores resources in a smaller amount. That is what I suggested in my older sorc buff threads.

Leave my dark deal alone. I need it to maintain stamina for expensive skills like Whirling blades and shrouded daggers.
The magicka morph should be the burst heal. Takes pressure off your stamina.
Besides, magsorc has better use of restoration staff anyway.

Dark Deal, which was what I suggested, is the magicka morph…

Dark deal restores stamina.

You said "The magicka morph should be the burst heal". Dark Deal is a magicka morph because it costs magicka. The stamina morph is Dark Conversion which costs stamina. It's just semantics, but regardless I still think Dark Deal should be a burst heal.

StaticWave

Caribou77 wrote: »

All the StamSorcs I see in pvp use blood craze to help with healing while also dishing out very high damage. Masters Dual Wield fbar, Vatesh ice staff backbar.

One of my 2 mains is a Magsorc, so, a bit selfishly, and a bit not, buffing Stamsorc seems a lower priority.

High dmg, yes, but not enough healing against top tier classes unless you crutch on Mara's Balm.

In fact the majority of stamsorc metas have always been crutching on procs. This goes way back to when stamsorc was meta with Viper Sing + Tremorscale, Way of Fire + Vate 2H + Deadlands, Savage WW bowsorc, etc.

There has not been a single patch in the last several years where a NO PROC stamsorc is considered good.

If a class has to crutch on 1 specific proc build to do well, then that class is bad. When that build gets nerfed, the class fades into nothingness.

StaticWave

Caribou77 wrote: »

All the StamSorcs I see in pvp use blood craze to help with healing while also dishing out very high damage. Masters Dual Wield fbar, Vatesh ice staff backbar.

One of my 2 mains is a Magsorc, so, a bit selfishly, and a bit not, buffing Stamsorc seems a lower priority.

And if you do try to go full stat, then ranged stamsorc is far superior than melee sorc. Guess what? Ranged stamsorc is much closer to magsorc than a melee sorc, and that speaks volume how much better ranged sorc is in general.

I can in fact argue that buffing melee sorc is a higher priority than buffing magsorc simply because that spec only exists due to a broken proc build and it doesn't exist outside of that.

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

All the StamSorcs I see in pvp use blood craze to help with healing while also dishing out very high damage. Masters Dual Wield fbar, Vatesh ice staff backbar.

One of my 2 mains is a Magsorc, so, a bit selfishly, and a bit not, buffing Stamsorc seems a lower priority.

And if you do try to go full stat, then ranged stamsorc is far superior than melee sorc. Guess what? Ranged stamsorc is much closer to magsorc than a melee sorc, and that speaks volume how much better ranged sorc is in general.

I can in fact argue that buffing melee sorc is a higher priority than buffing magsorc simply because that spec only exists due to a broken proc build and it doesn't exist outside of that.

Melee sorc definitely needs some help, last time a generic mag melee build was even remotely viable was U33 when resto staff was strong, and any melee mag build was viable was U34 before mines got gutted. Stam and hybrid at least have masters DW, melee mag has nothing.

Honestly the entire class needs buffs to all playstyles (for PvP). All sorcs have relied on proc sets for far too long now
- range stam relies on savage WW/way of fire
- melee anysorc relies on masters DW
- ranged magsorc relies on vate inferno or dragrkin
- all sorcs rely on mara's balm for defense.

Most of this can be done through a proper burst heal and buffs to passives and improved buff/debuff access, but it's quite telling when all variants of a class require procs and out of class abilities to function at an even remotely decent level when played by some who's not a top tier player.

All I can say is get your arcanist ready, the class is literally sorc but it can use its abilities to also help allies and gets insane buffs/secondary effects on top of strong abilities. Based on the limited releases we have seen now (still need to see tooltips from pts), but throw mist form on arcanist and you literally have a sorcerer that was designed and built around 2023 eso combat standards instead of 2018 combat standards.

StaticWave

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

All the StamSorcs I see in pvp use blood craze to help with healing while also dishing out very high damage. Masters Dual Wield fbar, Vatesh ice staff backbar.

One of my 2 mains is a Magsorc, so, a bit selfishly, and a bit not, buffing Stamsorc seems a lower priority.

And if you do try to go full stat, then ranged stamsorc is far superior than melee sorc. Guess what? Ranged stamsorc is much closer to magsorc than a melee sorc, and that speaks volume how much better ranged sorc is in general.

I can in fact argue that buffing melee sorc is a higher priority than buffing magsorc simply because that spec only exists due to a broken proc build and it doesn't exist outside of that.

Melee sorc definitely needs some help, last time a generic mag melee build was even remotely viable was U33 when resto staff was strong, and any melee mag build was viable was U34 before mines got gutted. Stam and hybrid at least have masters DW, melee mag has nothing.

Honestly the entire class needs buffs to all playstyles (for PvP). All sorcs have relied on proc sets for far too long now
- range stam relies on savage WW/way of fire
- melee anysorc relies on masters DW
- ranged magsorc relies on vate inferno or dragrkin
- all sorcs rely on mara's balm for defense.

Most of this can be done through a proper burst heal and buffs to passives and improved buff/debuff access, but it's quite telling when all variants of a class require procs and out of class abilities to function at an even remotely decent level when played by some who's not a top tier player.

All I can say is get your arcanist ready, the class is literally sorc but it can use its abilities to also help allies and gets insane buffs/secondary effects on top of strong abilities. Based on the limited releases we have seen now (still need to see tooltips from pts), but throw mist form on arcanist and you literally have a sorcerer that was designed and built around 2023 eso combat standards instead of 2018 combat standards.

Honestly you might not even need Mist Form if Arcanist's defense is good

Turtle_Bot

StaticWave wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Caribou77 wrote: »

All the StamSorcs I see in pvp use blood craze to help with healing while also dishing out very high damage. Masters Dual Wield fbar, Vatesh ice staff backbar.

One of my 2 mains is a Magsorc, so, a bit selfishly, and a bit not, buffing Stamsorc seems a lower priority.

And if you do try to go full stat, then ranged stamsorc is far superior than melee sorc. Guess what? Ranged stamsorc is much closer to magsorc than a melee sorc, and that speaks volume how much better ranged sorc is in general.

I can in fact argue that buffing melee sorc is a higher priority than buffing magsorc simply because that spec only exists due to a broken proc build and it doesn't exist outside of that.

Melee sorc definitely needs some help, last time a generic mag melee build was even remotely viable was U33 when resto staff was strong, and any melee mag build was viable was U34 before mines got gutted. Stam and hybrid at least have masters DW, melee mag has nothing.

Honestly the entire class needs buffs to all playstyles (for PvP). All sorcs have relied on proc sets for far too long now
- range stam relies on savage WW/way of fire
- melee anysorc relies on masters DW
- ranged magsorc relies on vate inferno or dragrkin
- all sorcs rely on mara's balm for defense.

Most of this can be done through a proper burst heal and buffs to passives and improved buff/debuff access, but it's quite telling when all variants of a class require procs and out of class abilities to function at an even remotely decent level when played by some who's not a top tier player.

All I can say is get your arcanist ready, the class is literally sorc but it can use its abilities to also help allies and gets insane buffs/secondary effects on top of strong abilities. Based on the limited releases we have seen now (still need to see tooltips from pts), but throw mist form on arcanist and you literally have a sorcerer that was designed and built around 2023 eso combat standards instead of 2018 combat standards.

Honestly you might not even need Mist Form if Arcanist's defense is good

true that, was thinking more for BoL mobility but yeah, if arcanist defense is good then it won't be needed

LittlePinkDot

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nice clip. Yeah, I've done some experimenting with pets on stamsorcs as well. Also used a full (5,) light armor stamsorc for a while in hopes of getting more crit/penetration. Both experiments actually worked pretty well but, like you say, that was a different time.

I do disagree that the pet should be single-barred. The pet isn't only a heal it is also a damage over time ability, if I may call it that, one that doesn't need to be cast (except the once.) So it is right for it to take up two slots... Or at least it would be with my proposed change.

I suppose, in addition to my proposal of not being targetable/killable it could also be made to function more like a 20/30 second buff that you need to recast. Then I would be comfortable with it only taking one slot and persisting from bar to bar.

Personally, I would be in favor of a rework to Dark Deal as a burst heal. One morph is a true burst heal, whereas the other restores resources in a smaller amount. That is what I suggested in my older sorc buff threads.

Leave my dark deal alone. I need it to maintain stamina for expensive skills like Whirling blades and shrouded daggers.
The magicka morph should be the burst heal. Takes pressure off your stamina.
Besides, magsorc has better use of restoration staff anyway.

Dark Deal, which was what I suggested, is the magicka morph…

Dark deal restores stamina.

You said "The magicka morph should be the burst heal". Dark Deal is a magicka morph because it costs magicka. The stamina morph is Dark Conversion which costs stamina. It's just semantics, but regardless I still think Dark Deal should be a burst heal.

As long as it still returns stamina I don't care.
Shrouded daggers and Whirling blades are expensive skills. Dark deal is currently critical to my build.

I use a restoration staff back bar for healing.
Maybe they could put a burst heal in the psijic skill line?

Also, in another post someone said that one of the streamers that had access to Necrom early for testing said that major berserk was added to Dark Deal.
I can't verify if that's true, but it's interesting food for thought!