Stamsorc's issues in U37 - what needs to be fixed

StaticWave

I can't recall how many times I've made a thread similar to this over the years, but truthfully I wouldn't have to if stamsorc's issues were fixed. NBs finally got their treatment, but I wonder why stamsorc hasn't gotten it yet. Anyways, I'll keep it short and to the point.

There are 2 main issues with stamsorc:

1) Lack of a decent and usable burst heal

I specifically used the term "decent and usable" because they must be together. A burst heal that has a decent tooltip but isn't reliable to use is not worth slotting. A burst heal that is reliable to use but has a bad tooltip or too high of an opportunity cost is, to a lesser extent, not worth slotting. For example, Matriarch/Clanfear are both very decent in terms of tooltip, but are not reliable (can be easily killed in combat) and have a high opportunity cost (require 2 bar slots). This makes them not usable and thus not worth slotting. In comparison, Honor of The Dead, Healthy Offering, Resistant Flesh, Artic Blast, and Coagulant Blood are all decent and usable.

2) Lack of crit passives

I'll use stamblade to help discuss my point because both classes are so similar in offense and defense with a slight difference in execution. Both classes have access to Minor Savagery/Minor Prophecy and abilities that work off critical hits. However, what's baffling to me is that stamblade gets the entire treatment in the form of extra passives boosting crit chance/crit damage and Shadow Cloak giving 100% crit chance, but stamsorc gets nothing?

I mean if Crit Surge works off critical chance, then I would expect the class to have something similar to help reach its maximum potential. It's like ZOS tried to make stamsorc different than stamblade, but forgot to make it 100% different and instead gave it a half-** change so it ends up not being good at anything.

Suggestions to fix these issues

1) Give stamsorc a decent and usable burst heal. This can be an entirely new ability, or a rework to current underperforming burst heals (Matriarch/Clanfear/Dark Deal).
2) Give stamsorc more passives boosting crit chance to synergize with Crit Surge, or rework Crit Surge completely so the class doesn't feel like a watered down stamblade

Luede

there's really not much missing to make the class reasonably competitive again, but those two points pretty much nail it. Healing is by far the biggest problem.

fred4

One thing that sorc isn't lacking is raw damage. Extra physical damage, extra weapon and spell damage, and extra damage against high health targets. I agree that Crit Surge doesn't work well in PvP, but maybe that's OK. As a Brutality / Sorcery source it sits alongside other class skills that either do nothing else (DK) or don't fit with what the class does best (NB / ganking). Sorc is also not alone at having to build towards a stat to take full advantage of their toolkit. It's crit for sorcs. It's ultigen for DKs - the class that benefits most from it and doesn't have any natively, oh the irony. ZOS love this kind of stuff.

I've lately played against a sorc who did all the right things (Meteor + Streak etc.), but we didn't have the damage to kill each other. I could breathe in that fight. CP IC, btw. I wasn't at risk of being insta-killed every single second on my squishy, but 1H+S blocking when she needs to NB. I've also played against sorcs who have absolutely insane damage, skill for skill (not just overall) when I look at my combat log. Maybe you can't 1vX well on a sorc anymore, I don't know. In a 1v1, if you have as much damage as some people do, people who appear markedly different than the average sorc but streak around just as much, it hardly matters whether you have a heal. You just outdamage people. And, no, they were not wearing Imperial Physique.

Yes, I agree, lack of a burst heal is an issue. A burst heal you can block cast and is not a pet. I play sorc myself. I could almost swear, however, that there must be exploit(s) going around that make some sorcs excessively strong, even while being quite tanky in terms of passive mitigation. I've seen such a sorc take apart a much tankier warden than what I play as well. With ease. You could see the warden struggling to heal and having to go pure defense. I could not endorse buffs to sorc damage until it comes to light how these people build, whether it's an exploit, or not.

Luede

fred4 wrote: »

One thing that sorc isn't lacking is raw damage. Extra physical damage, extra weapon and spell damage, and extra damage against high health targets. I agree that Crit Surge doesn't work well in PvP, but maybe that's OK. As a Brutality / Sorcery source it sits alongside other class skills that either do nothing else (DK) or don't fit with what the class does best (NB / ganking). Sorc is also not alone at having to build towards a stat to take full advantage of their toolkit. It's crit for sorcs. It's ultigen for DKs - the class that benefits most from it and doesn't have any natively, oh the irony. ZOS love this kind of stuff.

I've lately played against a sorc who did all the right things (Meteor + Streak etc.), but we didn't have the damage to kill each other. I could breathe in that fight. CP IC, btw. I wasn't at risk of being insta-killed every single second on my squishy, but 1H+S blocking when she needs to NB. I've also played against sorcs who have absolutely insane damage, skill for skill (not just overall) when I look at my combat log. Maybe you can't 1vX well on a sorc anymore, I don't know. In a 1v1, if you have as much damage as some people do, people who appear markedly different than the average sorc but streak around just as much, it hardly matters whether you have a heal. You just outdamage people. And, no, they were not wearing Imperial Physique.

Yes, I agree, lack of a burst heal is an issue. A burst heal you can block cast and is not a pet. I play sorc myself. I could almost swear, however, that there must be exploit(s) going around that make some sorcs excessively strong, even while being quite tanky in terms of passive mitigation. I've seen such a sorc take apart a much tankier warden than what I play as well. With ease. You could see the warden struggling to heal and having to go pure defense. I could not endorse buffs to sorc damage until it comes to light how these people build, whether it's an exploit, or not.

i agree with you that a sorc doesn't need more dmg, but sorc needs healing in any case. a 1vs1 in the cp campaign i generally don't think is representative here, because you have to be very careless there to die in 1vs1. Healing and damage avoidance go through the roof there.

I only play noncp, nonprocc and can assure you that healing is definitely a problem, especially since I am neither supported by defensive sets and have to go full dmg to break the extremely good class heals of the other classes.

one way of defense is certainly pure speed and if you go full on dmg, the enemy is so under pressure that not much damage comes in. but as soon as the enemy also goes offensive, you partly have a problem because your healing is so bad that the class heal makes the difference.

VixxVexx

- Make matriarch one bar and untargetable AND smaller
- Make all the effects of bound aegis actives instead of passives and makenthem all the same duration for expert summoner
- have streak proc strike from shadows from vampire passive
- ability to control streak distance with camera tilt
- turn mages wrath into spammable ( non-projectile but still a ranged spammable)
- do something about damage shield or make max mag stacking actually worth something
- Give haunting curse a debuff, literally anything
- give one nzgate morph an exhaust/silence effect (stam negate)
- some crit dmg bonus somewhere please
- make a daedric mine morph into an active where you place a mine on rolling or streaking
- change an Encase morph into 360 around you instead of cone in front of you
- also nerf sorc

StaticWave

@Luede @fred4 I don’t think stamsorc lacks damage. It has so much burst at its disposal and can easily 1 shot most players if it goes full damage.

The issue with that though is stamsorc has no usable burst heal scaling with max offensive stats. Ideally it would be Matriarch, but we all know the ability is not worth slotting.

Therefore what usually happens is people who build full damage will have little to zero survivability, and people who sacrificed damage for some tankiness will be at a damage disadvantage compared to other classes whose survivability benefit from building max offense.

I think giving the class a decent and usable burst heal scaling with max offense is the way to go. This simple change can fix the class’s 5 year old problem lol

Alchimiste1

I played mostly stamsorc for the previous 2 patches and these are my thoughts ;

1. The burst/kill potential is there if you can combo both crystal weapon, curse, and some ultimate.
2. In order to have that kill potential you almost certainly end up with 1 less skill on your bar than you would like to take advantage of the sorc's minor crit passives. I actually ended up going malancath on mine.
3. its passive defense is atrocious. You survive purely on your ability to recognize when you are in a bad position and to position yourself well.
4. The changes to templar radiant oppression make stamsorc not fun to play at all. There is basically nothing you can do to get out of execute unless you have LOS around. (you wont survive past the first streak at best).
5. I would suggest changing crit surge to a more passive hot without the crit condition simple because as it stands stamsorc can't really make use of its crit passives.
6. The class is extremely fun to play, it just needs a slight bit of help in the defense area. Stronger hots or a competent burst heal would fix this.

also undo the changes to radiant oppression @zos

StaticWave

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

I played mostly stamsorc for the previous 2 patches and these are my thoughts ;

1. The burst/kill potential is there if you can combo both crystal weapon, curse, and some ultimate.
2. In order to have that kill potential you almost certainly end up with 1 less skill on your bar than you would like to take advantage of the sorc's minor crit passives. I actually ended up going malancath on mine.
3. its passive defense is atrocious. You survive purely on your ability to recognize when you are in a bad position and to position yourself well.
4. The changes to templar radiant oppression make stamsorc not fun to play at all. There is basically nothing you can do to get out of execute unless you have LOS around. (you wont survive past the first streak at best).
5. I would suggest changing crit surge to a more passive hot without the crit condition simple because as it stands stamsorc can't really make use of its crit passives.
6. The class is extremely fun to play, it just needs a slight bit of help in the defense area. Stronger hots or a competent burst heal would fix this.

also undo the changes to radiant oppression @zos

Yea for me it was either malacath or death dealers. I went with death dealers because I liked having high HP but I'd switch back and forth between the two depending on builds.

I basically had the same problem as you when deciding what abilities to slot. You probably use 2h for Dizzy and Executioner, so you had to decide between Curse and Camo Hunter. For me it was Bound Armaments vs Camo Hunter vs Quick Cloak because I use DW. I ended up using crit pots instead and couldn't capitalize on Minor Prophecy lol.

I made a suggestion about reworking Crit Surge to be a reliable HoT without needing the crit damage condition before but it fell on deaf ears. It would most certainly help the class' passive healing for sure.

Templar is probably the biggest threat for stamsorc right now in openworld. I specifically save my SnB ultimate just for them and that doesn't guarantee I'll live.

A burst heal would literally fix all of this imo. When I'm playing uber aggressive I usually don't need to vigor because Crit Surge and Blood Magic actually give a decent amount of healing. It just needs some love bouncing back from near death.

Sergykid

no, stamsorc is in a very good position right now, u can't die unless u agree to, damage is high, survivability is very good if u know to use it, absorb shields are the only weak thing but u r not using them anyway on stamsorc, and even magsorc can make good use of them.
mobility is overloaded with streak which should get a nerf on utility.
sorc may not be as easy to get high results as it once was but it is stronger

StaticWave

Sergykid wrote: »

no, stamsorc is in a very good position right now, u can't die unless u agree to, damage is high, survivability is very good if u know to use it, absorb shields are the only weak thing but u r not using them anyway on stamsorc, and even magsorc can make good use of them.
mobility is overloaded with streak which should get a nerf on utility.
sorc may not be as easy to get high results as it once was but it is stronger

No, it isn't in a very good position.

Luede

Sergykid wrote: »

no, stamsorc is in a very good position right now, u can't die unless u agree to, damage is high, survivability is very good if u know to use it, absorb shields are the only weak thing but u r not using them anyway on stamsorc, and even magsorc can make good use of them.
mobility is overloaded with streak which should get a nerf on utility.
sorc may not be as easy to get high results as it once was but it is stronger

lol

FirmamentOfStars

My issue with giving stamsorc (sorc in general) another burst heal, which seems to be demanded on a level to other burst heals, just might break the class or its identity. Obviously we are far away from the identity the classes once had and nowadays almost all classes have a breath of life like burst heal somewhere.

I want to refer here to the nightblade class, which for a long time did not have a real burst heal in its class kit and for all that time, the class actually did fine thanks to cloak, shade, hots and rally. But with the healthy offering skill its survivability just went through the roof, so that the hybrid blade spec actually is very strong without the two defensive skills the class used before (cloak and shade). And when nightblades use both, healthy offering plus cloak, they are near impossible to kill, since they can disengage at will and heal for a huge amount.

So back to stamsorc, which also was a very viable class for a long time without having burst heals: What will happen, if there is a good burst heal in its tool kit? Will they drop streak for it? Will they become unkillable, because they can streak and burst heal? I mean most sorcs at the moment streak into sunset when they are low health and recover when out of reach. As nightblades, they have the tool to disengage at will pretty much and when played right, both classes normally do not die unless doing big mistakes.

I am not saying here, that the class is too good to receive some buffs or new skill. I am saying, that the combination of current survival tools plus burst heals can be problematic for game balance. Additionally, every class having a strong burst heal seems very boring to me. Healing in general is far too good at the moment with all the survivability we got from undeath and other mitigation sources. So before I vote for another burst heal for sorcs, i vote for healing nerfs for wardens, templars, dks and nbs.

StaticWave

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

My issue with giving stamsorc (sorc in general) another burst heal, which seems to be demanded on a level to other burst heals, just might break the class or its identity. Obviously we are far away from the identity the classes once had and nowadays almost all classes have a breath of life like burst heal somewhere.

I want to refer here to the nightblade class, which for a long time did not have a real burst heal in its class kit and for all that time, the class actually did fine thanks to cloak, shade, hots and rally. But with the healthy offering skill its survivability just went through the roof, so that the hybrid blade spec actually is very strong without the two defensive skills the class used before (cloak and shade). And when nightblades use both, healthy offering plus cloak, they are near impossible to kill, since they can disengage at will and heal for a huge amount.

So back to stamsorc, which also was a very viable class for a long time without having burst heals: What will happen, if there is a good burst heal in its tool kit? Will they drop streak for it? Will they become unkillable, because they can streak and burst heal? I mean most sorcs at the moment streak into sunset when they are low health and recover when out of reach. As nightblades, they have the tool to disengage at will pretty much and when played right, both classes normally do not die unless doing big mistakes.

I am not saying here, that the class is too good to receive some buffs or new skill. I am saying, that the combination of current survival tools plus burst heals can be problematic for game balance. Additionally, every class having a strong burst heal seems very boring to me. Healing in general is far too good at the moment with all the survivability we got from undeath and other mitigation sources. So before I vote for another burst heal for sorcs, i vote for healing nerfs for wardens, templars, dks and nbs.

They will 100% drop Streak because there’s simply not enough bar space to slot both of them AND damage. Let me give you an example:

A standard 2h stamsorc build will run these abilities:

Front bar: Crystal Weapon, Curse, Dizzying Swing, Rally, Execute

Back Bar: Streak, Dark Deal, Vigor, Crit Surge, Hurricane

As you can see, there is literally no bar space to fit Camo Hunter, Bound Armaments, and Major Fracture. Most people give up either Crit Surge or Rally for one of these 3 abilities. If a burst heal existed, then they most definitely have to keep Crit Surge for Brutality. That means they still don’t have access to those 3 abilities which can increase their damage output.

It would be better to drop Streak for a burst heal so that they can keep either Rally or Surge for Major Brut, then drop one of them for an extra damage skill.

If they choose to keep Streak, then their damage output is unchanged. They will be slightly harder to kill, but if the magicka cost is around 4k like other burst heals, then they would have to think twice about using both Streak and a burst heal.

PhoenixGrey

Sergykid wrote: »

no, stamsorc is in a very good position right now, u can't die unless u agree to, damage is high, survivability is very good if u know to use it, absorb shields are the only weak thing but u r not using them anyway on stamsorc, and even magsorc can make good use of them.
mobility is overloaded with streak which should get a nerf on utility.
sorc may not be as easy to get high results as it once was but it is stronger

Sorc is bottom tier in my eyes as it has least survivability compared to any class.

Mobility of sorc is overrated unless you are somehow playing the 2016 version of the game. Nb is a gazzalion times more mobile

XiangliSYD

From what I see in duels (between sweats) stamsorc seems to be the META lol.

universal_wrath

StaticWave wrote: »

I can't recall how many times I've made a thread similar to this over the years, but truthfully I wouldn't have to if stamsorc's issues were fixed. NBs finally got their treatment, but I wonder why stamsorc hasn't gotten it yet. Anyways, I'll keep it short and to the point.

There are 2 main issues with stamsorc:

1) Lack of a decent and usable burst heal

I specifically used the term "decent and usable" because they must be together. A burst heal that has a decent tooltip but isn't reliable to use is not worth slotting. A burst heal that is reliable to use but has a bad tooltip or too high of an opportunity cost is, to a lesser extent, not worth slotting. For example, Matriarch/Clanfear are both very decent in terms of tooltip, but are not reliable (can be easily killed in combat) and have a high opportunity cost (require 2 bar slots). This makes them not usable and thus not worth slotting. In comparison, Honor of The Dead, Healthy Offering, Resistant Flesh, Artic Blast, and Coagulant Blood are all decent and usable.

2) Lack of crit passives

I'll use stamblade to help discuss my point because both classes are so similar in offense and defense with a slight difference in execution. Both classes have access to Minor Savagery/Minor Prophecy and abilities that work off critical hits. However, what's baffling to me is that stamblade gets the entire treatment in the form of extra passives boosting crit chance/crit damage and Shadow Cloak giving 100% crit chance, but stamsorc gets nothing?

I mean if Crit Surge works off critical chance, then I would expect the class to have something similar to help reach its maximum potential. It's like ZOS tried to make stamsorc different than stamblade, but forgot to make it 100% different and instead gave it a half-** change so it ends up not being good at anything.

Suggestions to fix these issues

1) Give stamsorc a decent and usable burst heal. This can be an entirely new ability, or a rework to current underperforming burst heals (Matriarch/Clanfear/Dark Deal).
2) Give stamsorc more passives boosting crit chance to synergize with Crit Surge, or rework Crit Surge completely so the class doesn't feel like a watered down stamblade

lol, Image having same issue for over 7 years and devs still haven't manage to pin point the problem. Good thing I left the game.

Sergykid

StaticWave wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, stamsorc is in a very good position right now, u can't die unless u agree to, damage is high, survivability is very good if u know to use it, absorb shields are the only weak thing but u r not using them anyway on stamsorc, and even magsorc can make good use of them.
mobility is overloaded with streak which should get a nerf on utility.
sorc may not be as easy to get high results as it once was but it is stronger

No, it isn't in a very good position.

then u r not playing it properly. In high mmr bgs in hands of at least decent players they are on par with dks and dens.

over time, mostly recent patches, sorc, mostly stam, got higher skill ceiling as payment for higher power

StaticWave

Sergykid wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

Sergykid wrote: »

no, stamsorc is in a very good position right now, u can't die unless u agree to, damage is high, survivability is very good if u know to use it, absorb shields are the only weak thing but u r not using them anyway on stamsorc, and even magsorc can make good use of them.
mobility is overloaded with streak which should get a nerf on utility.
sorc may not be as easy to get high results as it once was but it is stronger

No, it isn't in a very good position.

then u r not playing it properly. In high mmr bgs in hands of at least decent players they are on par with dks and dens.

over time, mostly recent patches, sorc, mostly stam, got higher skill ceiling as payment for higher power

I’m a well-known top tier stamsorc on PC NA, I think I know it better than most people lol..

You havent given any argument for your claim that it doesnt need a buff. Try again

StaticWave

universal_wrath wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I can't recall how many times I've made a thread similar to this over the years, but truthfully I wouldn't have to if stamsorc's issues were fixed. NBs finally got their treatment, but I wonder why stamsorc hasn't gotten it yet. Anyways, I'll keep it short and to the point.

There are 2 main issues with stamsorc:

1) Lack of a decent and usable burst heal

I specifically used the term "decent and usable" because they must be together. A burst heal that has a decent tooltip but isn't reliable to use is not worth slotting. A burst heal that is reliable to use but has a bad tooltip or too high of an opportunity cost is, to a lesser extent, not worth slotting. For example, Matriarch/Clanfear are both very decent in terms of tooltip, but are not reliable (can be easily killed in combat) and have a high opportunity cost (require 2 bar slots). This makes them not usable and thus not worth slotting. In comparison, Honor of The Dead, Healthy Offering, Resistant Flesh, Artic Blast, and Coagulant Blood are all decent and usable.

2) Lack of crit passives

I'll use stamblade to help discuss my point because both classes are so similar in offense and defense with a slight difference in execution. Both classes have access to Minor Savagery/Minor Prophecy and abilities that work off critical hits. However, what's baffling to me is that stamblade gets the entire treatment in the form of extra passives boosting crit chance/crit damage and Shadow Cloak giving 100% crit chance, but stamsorc gets nothing?

I mean if Crit Surge works off critical chance, then I would expect the class to have something similar to help reach its maximum potential. It's like ZOS tried to make stamsorc different than stamblade, but forgot to make it 100% different and instead gave it a half-** change so it ends up not being good at anything.

Suggestions to fix these issues

1) Give stamsorc a decent and usable burst heal. This can be an entirely new ability, or a rework to current underperforming burst heals (Matriarch/Clanfear/Dark Deal).
2) Give stamsorc more passives boosting crit chance to synergize with Crit Surge, or rework Crit Surge completely so the class doesn't feel like a watered down stamblade

lol, Image having same issue for over 7 years and devs still haven't manage to pin point the problem. Good thing I left the game.

Yep lol. Hey they buffed NB tho. Maybe we should get a dev who mains sorc 🤣

StaticWave

XiangliSYD wrote: »

From what I see in duels (between sweats) stamsorc seems to be the META lol.

Ur probably talking about bow sorc with double proc sets. Those specs were broken because of savage ww and 2-charge crystal weapon. It’s no where near as bad as it was. I’ve fought plenty of bow sorcs before they abused the crap out of 2-charge cwep and savage ww and it was as simple as popping a shield wall negating all their damage.

The only spec that still performs well is bowsorc, and bowsorc has always performed well in GvGs anyways. Every group has at least a bombard spammer which usually is a bowsorc because he can also drop Negate.

But that isnt the point. If the only spec that’s somewhat decent is bowsorc, then we have a problem. Every spec of templar and dk and warden can perform well. We should strive for that, not say “oh one spec is good therefore the whole class is good”. That isn’t how it works lol.

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

I'll use stamblade to help discuss my point because both classes are so similar in offense and defense with a slight difference in execution. Both classes have access to Minor Savagery/Minor Prophecy and abilities that work off critical hits. However, what's baffling to me is that stamblade gets the entire treatment in the form of extra passives boosting crit chance/crit damage and Shadow Cloak giving 100% crit chance, but stamsorc gets nothing?

Very valid points in comparision

However NB is designed to always be the strongest class in the game and will usually get preferential treatment.

It took 5 years to get a stamina version of frags

We can bet on how long will it take to get a burst heal

OBJnoob

I agree with pretty much everything Static says. BUT... Kinda agree with I believe it was firmamentofstars who said having a burst heal MIGHT be a problem on sorc. I disagree that streak will be the thing kicked off the bar to accommodate a heal. For anyone using a pet-- it'll be the pet that goes. And in other circumstances Dark Deal will probably be what goes. You don't sacrifice your mobility for a heal you sacrifice your bad heals for good heals. In other circumstances, camo hunter will be what goes and savagery will be sourced through pots instead-- yes even at the expense of the minor prophecy passive.

BUT. I'd still like them to have a burst heal. As an alternative idea though-- as Static suggested, untie crit surge from offense and just make it a nice HoT instead. OR, and this is perhaps less about healing but would be a nice buff anyway, make crit surge grant major savagery/prophecy for the duration.

Honestly my platform has lots of really really good stamsorc duelers. I'm not a tippy top tier pvper but I'm good. And I play a magden at the moment. So I'm a "tough out," and hopefully I can say that without bragging. DKs of equal skill beat me in duels but normally after a LONG grueling fight. The stamsorcs I mentioned just start hitting me and don't stop until I'm dead. Not that I blow up or anything... But seriously. Oof, just for frame of reference.

My platform also has "lots" of magsorcs in high mmr bgs. And they do well or I wouldn't bring it up. Now I can almost always kill the magsorcs if they hold still long enough... But that doesn't mean they don't score well at the end. Conversely there's only really one stamsorc in bgs I can think of... He's a friend of mine and he does pretty good, but seriously I can't remember even seeing another.

My takeaway? Stamsorcs excel in 1v1s due to a lack of chaos and subsequent ability to stay on offense. But they suffer in chaotic group environments or, God forbid, outnumbered situations. Magsorcs, due to shielding I suppose (though I know these get complained about,) seem a little better and able to somehow be tankier.

Neither spec is quite as bad as some people claim, IMHO, but both specs need a little something. And that something is self healing... However it gets there.

PhoenixGrey

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything Static says. BUT... Kinda agree with I believe it was firmamentofstars who said having a burst heal MIGHT be a problem on sorc. I disagree that streak will be the thing kicked off the bar to accommodate a heal. For anyone using a pet-- it'll be the pet that goes. And in other circumstances Dark Deal will probably be what goes. You don't sacrifice your mobility for a heal you sacrifice your bad heals for good heals. In other circumstances, camo hunter will be what goes and savagery will be sourced through pots instead-- yes even at the expense of the minor prophecy passive.

BUT. I'd still like them to have a burst heal. As an alternative idea though-- as Static suggested, untie crit surge from offense and just make it a nice HoT instead. OR, and this is perhaps less about healing but would be a nice buff anyway, make crit surge grant major savagery/prophecy for the duration.

Honestly my platform has lots of really really good stamsorc duelers. I'm not a tippy top tier pvper but I'm good. And I play a magden at the moment. So I'm a "tough out," and hopefully I can say that without bragging. DKs of equal skill beat me in duels but normally after a LONG grueling fight. The stamsorcs I mentioned just start hitting me and don't stop until I'm dead. Not that I blow up or anything... But seriously. Oof, just for frame of reference.

My platform also has "lots" of magsorcs in high mmr bgs. And they do well or I wouldn't bring it up. Now I can almost always kill the magsorcs if they hold still long enough... But that doesn't mean they don't score well at the end. Conversely there's only really one stamsorc in bgs I can think of... He's a friend of mine and he does pretty good, but seriously I can't remember even seeing another.

My takeaway? Stamsorcs excel in 1v1s due to a lack of chaos and subsequent ability to stay on offense. But they suffer in chaotic group environments or, God forbid, outnumbered situations. Magsorcs, due to shielding I suppose (though I know these get complained about,) seem a little better and able to somehow be tankier.

Neither spec is quite as bad as some people claim, IMHO, but both specs need a little something. And that something is self healing... However it gets there.

Why is there an assumption that something needs to be kicked off the bar ? Simply overload an existing skill lol.

Apart from crystal weapon there is an overflowing list of useless skills for sorc.

Some nb skills give you damage, mobility, defense and some other secondary effects all in one skill.

And I m sorry, mag sorcs and stam sorcs are hot garbage in high mmr. Some of them wear mara’s which might make them feel tanky. They are as thin as paper without it

OBJnoob

It wasn't an assumption it was a direct response to something others had said.

Yes, if they just "fix" an existing heal to serve the purpose then this isn't an issue. Dark Deal being a sustain tool-- it should NOT have its cast time removed. I've always said just make pets untargetable and unkillable. People don't tend to like my ideas though so... -shrug-

PhoenixGrey

StaticWave wrote: »

universal_wrath wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

I can't recall how many times I've made a thread similar to this over the years, but truthfully I wouldn't have to if stamsorc's issues were fixed. NBs finally got their treatment, but I wonder why stamsorc hasn't gotten it yet. Anyways, I'll keep it short and to the point.

There are 2 main issues with stamsorc:

1) Lack of a decent and usable burst heal

I specifically used the term "decent and usable" because they must be together. A burst heal that has a decent tooltip but isn't reliable to use is not worth slotting. A burst heal that is reliable to use but has a bad tooltip or too high of an opportunity cost is, to a lesser extent, not worth slotting. For example, Matriarch/Clanfear are both very decent in terms of tooltip, but are not reliable (can be easily killed in combat) and have a high opportunity cost (require 2 bar slots). This makes them not usable and thus not worth slotting. In comparison, Honor of The Dead, Healthy Offering, Resistant Flesh, Artic Blast, and Coagulant Blood are all decent and usable.

2) Lack of crit passives

I'll use stamblade to help discuss my point because both classes are so similar in offense and defense with a slight difference in execution. Both classes have access to Minor Savagery/Minor Prophecy and abilities that work off critical hits. However, what's baffling to me is that stamblade gets the entire treatment in the form of extra passives boosting crit chance/crit damage and Shadow Cloak giving 100% crit chance, but stamsorc gets nothing?

I mean if Crit Surge works off critical chance, then I would expect the class to have something similar to help reach its maximum potential. It's like ZOS tried to make stamsorc different than stamblade, but forgot to make it 100% different and instead gave it a half-** change so it ends up not being good at anything.

Suggestions to fix these issues

1) Give stamsorc a decent and usable burst heal. This can be an entirely new ability, or a rework to current underperforming burst heals (Matriarch/Clanfear/Dark Deal).
2) Give stamsorc more passives boosting crit chance to synergize with Crit Surge, or rework Crit Surge completely so the class doesn't feel like a watered down stamblade

lol, Image having same issue for over 7 years and devs still haven't manage to pin point the problem. Good thing I left the game.

Yep lol. Hey they buffed NB tho. Maybe we should get a dev who mains sorc 🤣

Maybe that dev should hybridize the game again for one class

Or mess around core mechanics like light attacks for that one class

My bet is next time we have a dev that messes around battle spirit

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything Static says. BUT... Kinda agree with I believe it was firmamentofstars who said having a burst heal MIGHT be a problem on sorc. I disagree that streak will be the thing kicked off the bar to accommodate a heal. For anyone using a pet-- it'll be the pet that goes. And in other circumstances Dark Deal will probably be what goes. You don't sacrifice your mobility for a heal you sacrifice your bad heals for good heals. In other circumstances, camo hunter will be what goes and savagery will be sourced through pots instead-- yes even at the expense of the minor prophecy passive.

BUT. I'd still like them to have a burst heal. As an alternative idea though-- as Static suggested, untie crit surge from offense and just make it a nice HoT instead. OR, and this is perhaps less about healing but would be a nice buff anyway, make crit surge grant major savagery/prophecy for the duration.

Honestly my platform has lots of really really good stamsorc duelers. I'm not a tippy top tier pvper but I'm good. And I play a magden at the moment. So I'm a "tough out," and hopefully I can say that without bragging. DKs of equal skill beat me in duels but normally after a LONG grueling fight. The stamsorcs I mentioned just start hitting me and don't stop until I'm dead. Not that I blow up or anything... But seriously. Oof, just for frame of reference.

My platform also has "lots" of magsorcs in high mmr bgs. And they do well or I wouldn't bring it up. Now I can almost always kill the magsorcs if they hold still long enough... But that doesn't mean they don't score well at the end. Conversely there's only really one stamsorc in bgs I can think of... He's a friend of mine and he does pretty good, but seriously I can't remember even seeing another.

My takeaway? Stamsorcs excel in 1v1s due to a lack of chaos and subsequent ability to stay on offense. But they suffer in chaotic group environments or, God forbid, outnumbered situations. Magsorcs, due to shielding I suppose (though I know these get complained about,) seem a little better and able to somehow be tankier.

Neither spec is quite as bad as some people claim, IMHO, but both specs need a little something. And that something is self healing... However it gets there.

This is a thread about stamsorc so i doubt any stamsorc is running pets.

With that said, the burst heal will not be an issue for magsorc either because they desperately need it.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

I agree with pretty much everything Static says. BUT... Kinda agree with I believe it was firmamentofstars who said having a burst heal MIGHT be a problem on sorc. I disagree that streak will be the thing kicked off the bar to accommodate a heal. For anyone using a pet-- it'll be the pet that goes. And in other circumstances Dark Deal will probably be what goes. You don't sacrifice your mobility for a heal you sacrifice your bad heals for good heals. In other circumstances, camo hunter will be what goes and savagery will be sourced through pots instead-- yes even at the expense of the minor prophecy passive.

BUT. I'd still like them to have a burst heal. As an alternative idea though-- as Static suggested, untie crit surge from offense and just make it a nice HoT instead. OR, and this is perhaps less about healing but would be a nice buff anyway, make crit surge grant major savagery/prophecy for the duration.

Honestly my platform has lots of really really good stamsorc duelers. I'm not a tippy top tier pvper but I'm good. And I play a magden at the moment. So I'm a "tough out," and hopefully I can say that without bragging. DKs of equal skill beat me in duels but normally after a LONG grueling fight. The stamsorcs I mentioned just start hitting me and don't stop until I'm dead. Not that I blow up or anything... But seriously. Oof, just for frame of reference.

My platform also has "lots" of magsorcs in high mmr bgs. And they do well or I wouldn't bring it up. Now I can almost always kill the magsorcs if they hold still long enough... But that doesn't mean they don't score well at the end. Conversely there's only really one stamsorc in bgs I can think of... He's a friend of mine and he does pretty good, but seriously I can't remember even seeing another.

My takeaway? Stamsorcs excel in 1v1s due to a lack of chaos and subsequent ability to stay on offense. But they suffer in chaotic group environments or, God forbid, outnumbered situations. Magsorcs, due to shielding I suppose (though I know these get complained about,) seem a little better and able to somehow be tankier.

Neither spec is quite as bad as some people claim, IMHO, but both specs need a little something. And that something is self healing... However it gets there.

Over 3 years up to now there has only been 1 stamsorc winner in all tournaments on PC NA, and it was a tournament with rules banning proc sets and broken abilities. That stamsorc was me. No stamsorc has won anything else since, even in a no rules tournament. That place belongs to magplar and magdk.

Stamsorc is one of the worst classes for 1v1 because you cannot use LoS, which is how you normally survive for a class with no burst heal.

OBJnoob

@StaticWave What you said can be true and what I said can be true at the same time. You may play at a higher level than me... But the game needs to be balanced around more than just the top 2%. My experiences on Xbox also matter. And you'll notice I didn't exactly disagree with you. The take-away was not that they don't need help.

And while I respect the thread is about stamsorc we can't act like buffs to stamsorc won't also effect magsorc. So both need to be considered. But as far as pets go-- yes, point taken, but I still think I'm right that streak will not be the sacrifice made by the majority of players. But this small detail isn't worth debating-- I hope you agree-- when we ultimately arrive at the same conclusion. They need a burst heal.

Edited because I believe I misunderstood you. You perhaps are saying that fixing matriarch to be a reliable heal won't help stamsorc. I disagree. Just because they don't use pets doesn't mean they can't. I don't care about lore, thematics, or visuals. I just pvp and want to balance pvp. Every class burst heal I can think of costs magicka. If the matriarch becomes reliable and stamsorcs refuse to use it... Well that's their bad. I won't shed a tear for stubborn nostalgia.

StaticWave

@OBJnoob No I agreed with most of what you said. I specifically only disagreed with your statement about stamsorc excelling in 1v1s because I’ve done so many tournaments and duels and in my experience, it’s always been an inferior class. Good players can make it work but when all else are equal the better designed class wins.

I personally would not drop Streak, so I can see why you are concerned. But I also said stamsorcs will need to choose because bar space is a real issue for them just like magsorc. They can’t have all the burst and all the heals they want.

I think having a REWORKED Matriarch will help stamsorc. But it has to be a reworked version that only requires 1 slot. I’ve done a pet build before but that era was much different. Pets were harder to kill and damage wasn’t as high. Now you can kill pets with 2 abilities, so there is zero advantage to running a pet stamsorc, let alone sacrificing an extra slot for it.

Here’s the clip of the pet sorc I ran 3 years ago

https://youtu.be/YTz6MPmJ_n0

OBJnoob

Nice clip. Yeah, I've done some experimenting with pets on stamsorcs as well. Also used a full (5,) light armor stamsorc for a while in hopes of getting more crit/penetration. Both experiments actually worked pretty well but, like you say, that was a different time.

I do disagree that the pet should be single-barred. The pet isn't only a heal it is also a damage over time ability, if I may call it that, one that doesn't need to be cast (except the once.) So it is right for it to take up two slots... Or at least it would be with my proposed change.

I suppose, in addition to my proposal of not being targetable/killable it could also be made to function more like a 20/30 second buff that you need to recast. Then I would be comfortable with it only taking one slot and persisting from bar to bar.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nice clip. Yeah, I've done some experimenting with pets on stamsorcs as well. Also used a full (5,) light armor stamsorc for a while in hopes of getting more crit/penetration. Both experiments actually worked pretty well but, like you say, that was a different time.

I do disagree that the pet should be single-barred. The pet isn't only a heal it is also a damage over time ability, if I may call it that, one that doesn't need to be cast (except the once.) So it is right for it to take up two slots... Or at least it would be with my proposed change.

I suppose, in addition to my proposal of not being targetable/killable it could also be made to function more like a 20/30 second buff that you need to recast. Then I would be comfortable with it only taking one slot and persisting from bar to bar.

Personally, I would be in favor of a rework to Dark Deal as a burst heal. One morph is a true burst heal, whereas the other restores resources in a smaller amount. That is what I suggested in my older sorc buff threads.