Stamsorc's issues in U37 - what needs to be fixed

OBJnoob

I would be fine with that as well, but it would have to be as you say-- the effects split between morphs. As it is Dark Deal can't be insta-cast because of the resource thing. And whichever morph stays as it is now would need to be made dynamic where it costs what resource you have most of and returns what you have least of. Otherwise it'd favor one spec over the other... You know, if anybody decided NOT to run the new heal.

Metemsycosis

Actually that's all I'd do is buff the heal on dark deal. Maybe add scaling based on missing health (?)

LittlePinkDot

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nice clip. Yeah, I've done some experimenting with pets on stamsorcs as well. Also used a full (5,) light armor stamsorc for a while in hopes of getting more crit/penetration. Both experiments actually worked pretty well but, like you say, that was a different time.

I do disagree that the pet should be single-barred. The pet isn't only a heal it is also a damage over time ability, if I may call it that, one that doesn't need to be cast (except the once.) So it is right for it to take up two slots... Or at least it would be with my proposed change.

I suppose, in addition to my proposal of not being targetable/killable it could also be made to function more like a 20/30 second buff that you need to recast. Then I would be comfortable with it only taking one slot and persisting from bar to bar.

Personally, I would be in favor of a rework to Dark Deal as a burst heal. One morph is a true burst heal, whereas the other restores resources in a smaller amount. That is what I suggested in my older sorc buff threads.

Leave my dark deal alone. I need it to maintain stamina for expensive skills like Whirling blades and shrouded daggers.
The magicka morph should be the burst heal. Takes pressure off your stamina.
Besides, magsorc has better use of restoration staff anyway.

Alchimiste1

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nice clip. Yeah, I've done some experimenting with pets on stamsorcs as well. Also used a full (5,) light armor stamsorc for a while in hopes of getting more crit/penetration. Both experiments actually worked pretty well but, like you say, that was a different time.

I do disagree that the pet should be single-barred. The pet isn't only a heal it is also a damage over time ability, if I may call it that, one that doesn't need to be cast (except the once.) So it is right for it to take up two slots... Or at least it would be with my proposed change.

I suppose, in addition to my proposal of not being targetable/killable it could also be made to function more like a 20/30 second buff that you need to recast. Then I would be comfortable with it only taking one slot and persisting from bar to bar.

Personally, I would be in favor of a rework to Dark Deal as a burst heal. One morph is a true burst heal, whereas the other restores resources in a smaller amount. That is what I suggested in my older sorc buff threads.

Leave my dark deal alone. I need it to maintain stamina for expensive skills like Whirling blades and shrouded daggers.
The magicka morph should be the burst heal. Takes pressure off your stamina.
Besides, magsorc has better use of restoration staff anyway.

Dark deal is the morph that restores stam and health. You are thinking of dark exchange

WeylandLabs

StaticWave wrote: »

I can't recall how many times I've made a thread similar to this over the years, but truthfully I wouldn't have to if stamsorc's issues were fixed. NBs finally got their treatment, but I wonder why stamsorc hasn't gotten it yet. Anyways, I'll keep it short and to the point.

There are 2 main issues with stamsorc:

1) Lack of a decent and usable burst heal

I specifically used the term "decent and usable" because they must be together. A burst heal that has a decent tooltip but isn't reliable to use is not worth slotting. A burst heal that is reliable to use but has a bad tooltip or too high of an opportunity cost is, to a lesser extent, not worth slotting. For example, Matriarch/Clanfear are both very decent in terms of tooltip, but are not reliable (can be easily killed in combat) and have a high opportunity cost (require 2 bar slots). This makes them not usable and thus not worth slotting. In comparison, Honor of The Dead, Healthy Offering, Resistant Flesh, Artic Blast, and Coagulant Blood are all decent and usable.

2) Lack of crit passives

I'll use stamblade to help discuss my point because both classes are so similar in offense and defense with a slight difference in execution. Both classes have access to Minor Savagery/Minor Prophecy and abilities that work off critical hits. However, what's baffling to me is that stamblade gets the entire treatment in the form of extra passives boosting crit chance/crit damage and Shadow Cloak giving 100% crit chance, but stamsorc gets nothing?

I mean if Crit Surge works off critical chance, then I would expect the class to have something similar to help reach its maximum potential. It's like ZOS tried to make stamsorc different than stamblade, but forgot to make it 100% different and instead gave it a half-** change so it ends up not being good at anything.

Suggestions to fix these issues

1) Give stamsorc a decent and usable burst heal. This can be an entirely new ability, or a rework to current underperforming burst heals (Matriarch/Clanfear/Dark Deal).
2) Give stamsorc more passives boosting crit chance to synergize with Crit Surge, or rework Crit Surge completely so the class doesn't feel like a watered down stamblade

Like the post ... !

From a vetted on and off again player that only plays one class ( Stam Sorc )) and not trying to play every meta. So my views are a little bias from other classes, but it's good to understand ZOS's direction in classes and marketing for revenue. I don't feel ESO has a big enough community to even care about bias on classes and builds. Therefore, they can do whatever they want with anything at any time. Having a business analytical background and looking at trends and patterns of updates of sets and or builds. The scheme is pretty obvious of course that most players good of stam sorcs have more of a creative side to playstyles which make it hard for logical players to deal with.

This creates a very complicated situation for the team at ZOS because on one hand you have most content creators that rely on logic and mathematical situations to win fights in PvP of thinking if I have this perfect build on of resources and damage and if I do XYZ for X amount of time I should win battles. Creative playstlyes have always since day 1 been a strong to counter especially when when the enemy is logical 100% of the time.

For example : I used dual wield bow from 2015 to 2018 3 years players didn't understand how to counter the build because it was full dot, and yes i took advantage of coding errors for weapons because VMA duel wield buff the dots. But what they didn't understand was it also buffed the crit heal from crit surge it was a flat amount after the nerf but it didn't stop those huge heals with a 5 hits of a flurry spam. The playstyle was counterable, i wasn't immune to other players, NB's some magplars used to get me but it was a fight. What I'm saying is - AS much bias i have with this class it most definitely went up the chain at ZOS.

Because in PvE they are fine and pretty good, but that comes from dps test dummy parses that logical player uses to calculate their skill in the game, and not reactionary gameplay and more mechanical.

Stam sorcs is in the worst place I've ever seen in the last 8 years for PvP.

What I found interesting is how did Stam sorcs get so nerfed in pvp to begin with ?

So lets understand why stam sorcs are bad ?

Were they bad in the past year ?

Answer no : Oakensoul and savage WW was pretty epic, but savage WW was always in the game ?

So what was it ...

Again, playstyle once again people figured out how to maximize stam sorcs abilities for fun. Thats what this game should be about ! - FUN !

So this playstyle/build and class got nerfed into the ground because enough people complained about it being op even though nobody used it in PvE ?

This leads me towards devs having their own bias in classes now, and the reason why there has been a massive exodus in ESO over the past few months! But this is just a theory because I feel more developers watch twitch now than ever before, and a lot of PvP streamers have influenced this game straight out of fun !

So how can Stam sorcs be viable again well? Nothing i say will even count on the forums so i'll say look at the math since everyone is logical now.

Crit got a huge nerf 3 years ago, that also nerfed crit surge - less crit less heals! Crit surge hasn't been adjusted from that nerf because the damage went up so much and mag sorc playstyle in PvE are still extremely viable.

So why even touch it ?

Who knows why they think the way they think, but im optimistic one day a person at ZOS will play stam sorc and help this class out, that the only way i think it will get buffed. You can tell there are a lot of new heads there, and the turnover is really high, so my expectations are low but I'm optimistic tomorrow about announcement. I figure we get a good thing once a year and it's been 3/4 years since that happened so it's more than due right now. and if not, I'll just keep waiting.

---

Fixes towards Stam sorc ?

Stop punishing creativity ... make the class or game fun again with different interesting things or builds to play.

🎤 drop !

Turtle_Bot

Sergykid wrote: »

no, stamsorc is in a very good position right now, u can't die unless u agree to, damage is high, survivability is very good if u know to use it, absorb shields are the only weak thing but u r not using them anyway on stamsorc, and even magsorc can make good use of them.
mobility is overloaded with streak which should get a nerf on utility.
sorc may not be as easy to get high results as it once was but it is stronger

lmao, bad bait is bad

Zekka

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

I want to refer here to the nightblade class, which for a long time did not have a real burst heal in its class kit and for all that time, the class actually did fine thanks to cloak, shade, hots and rally. But with the healthy offering skill its survivability just went through the roof, so that the hybrid blade spec actually is very strong without the two defensive skills the class used before (cloak and shade). And when nightblades use both, healthy offering plus cloak, they are near impossible to kill, since they can disengage at will and heal for a huge amount.

That's exactly what will happen if that class gets a burst heal on the same level as Honor the dead that doesn't come with drawbacks, that mistake has already been done for nightblade and should not happen again.

StaticWave

Zekka wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

I want to refer here to the nightblade class, which for a long time did not have a real burst heal in its class kit and for all that time, the class actually did fine thanks to cloak, shade, hots and rally. But with the healthy offering skill its survivability just went through the roof, so that the hybrid blade spec actually is very strong without the two defensive skills the class used before (cloak and shade). And when nightblades use both, healthy offering plus cloak, they are near impossible to kill, since they can disengage at will and heal for a huge amount.

That's exactly what will happen if that class gets a burst heal on the same level as Honor the dead that doesn't come with drawbacks, that mistake has already been done for nightblade and should not happen again.

Actually, it depends.

Nb has more defensive healing and easier-to-proc offensive healing. For example, Dark Cloak + Path provide a decent stream of defensive HoTs, and Leeching Strike + Assassin’s Will burst heal provide a decent and reliable stream of offensive healing. All are reliable to use.

Stamsorc in contrast has less defensive healing and harder to proc offensive healing. For example, you only have Dark Deal for a pseudo burst heal which is a channel. You have no class HoTs. Your offensive heals are Crit Surge which require stacking a lot of crit chance or multiple instances of damage which can only be achieved by running a DoT build. Blood Magic is the only reliable offensive heal in the entire tool kit.

I would argue that the spec will be 30% more survivable than it currently is, and 50% more if it’s a ranged spec, but it wouldn’t be that tankier. Nbs also got several more defensive buffs in the form of Major + Minor Courage and Phantasmal Escape (100% dodge cost reduction). One burst heal buff will not put stamsorc on par with Nb in defensive prowess

StaticWave

LittlePinkDot wrote: »

StaticWave wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

Nice clip. Yeah, I've done some experimenting with pets on stamsorcs as well. Also used a full (5,) light armor stamsorc for a while in hopes of getting more crit/penetration. Both experiments actually worked pretty well but, like you say, that was a different time.

I do disagree that the pet should be single-barred. The pet isn't only a heal it is also a damage over time ability, if I may call it that, one that doesn't need to be cast (except the once.) So it is right for it to take up two slots... Or at least it would be with my proposed change.

I suppose, in addition to my proposal of not being targetable/killable it could also be made to function more like a 20/30 second buff that you need to recast. Then I would be comfortable with it only taking one slot and persisting from bar to bar.

Personally, I would be in favor of a rework to Dark Deal as a burst heal. One morph is a true burst heal, whereas the other restores resources in a smaller amount. That is what I suggested in my older sorc buff threads.

Leave my dark deal alone. I need it to maintain stamina for expensive skills like Whirling blades and shrouded daggers.
The magicka morph should be the burst heal. Takes pressure off your stamina.
Besides, magsorc has better use of restoration staff anyway.

Dark Deal, which was what I suggested, is the magicka morph…

AndreNoir

Zekka wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

I want to refer here to the nightblade class, which for a long time did not have a real burst heal in its class kit and for all that time, the class actually did fine thanks to cloak, shade, hots and rally. But with the healthy offering skill its survivability just went through the roof, so that the hybrid blade spec actually is very strong without the two defensive skills the class used before (cloak and shade). And when nightblades use both, healthy offering plus cloak, they are near impossible to kill, since they can disengage at will and heal for a huge amount.

That's exactly what will happen if that class gets a burst heal on the same level as Honor the dead that doesn't come with drawbacks, that mistake has already been done for nightblade and should not happen again.

It has drawbacks and it had to be like it is right now from begining

katorga

Crystal weapon needs to set the target off balance and buff the caster's damage by 10% for 5 seconds on the 2nd hit.

Crystal Fragments from the flank sets the target off balance and if proc'd and from the flank have 100% crit

Bound Armaments should do a minimum of 80% of the damage of Merciless Resolve. (4 lights vs 5 lights).

Just to bring these skills in line with other spammable and delayed burst skills,

The other morph of hardened ward should be turned into an instant burst heal with qualitatively equal secondary effects compared to other burst heals.

On a side note, looks like Arcanist is getting a form of streak, if it doesn't have a escalating cost penalties, then they should be removed from streak.

Turtle_Bot

Zekka wrote: »

FirmamentOfStars wrote: »

I want to refer here to the nightblade class, which for a long time did not have a real burst heal in its class kit and for all that time, the class actually did fine thanks to cloak, shade, hots and rally. But with the healthy offering skill its survivability just went through the roof, so that the hybrid blade spec actually is very strong without the two defensive skills the class used before (cloak and shade). And when nightblades use both, healthy offering plus cloak, they are near impossible to kill, since they can disengage at will and heal for a huge amount.

That's exactly what will happen if that class gets a burst heal on the same level as Honor the dead that doesn't come with drawbacks, that mistake has already been done for nightblade and should not happen again.

the heal can have draw backs, but don't make them so mechanically clunky/punishing that the class is forced to either run out-of-class skills to compensate or forced to rely on streak/shields to attempt to have those reliable basic and necessary survival skills that every other class has inherently in their class kits.

Make it cost more than other burst heals, reduce the sustain component to be a secondary effect in line with other class's burst heals or have the resource restore be entirely over time instead of a burst restore effect, but don't make it take up multiple bar slots and/or have a cast time/channel that can be interrupted, that's just bad game design and all it does is punish the caster for trying to use basic survival skills when they are supposed to be used (i.e. punished for simply trying to play the game as it was intended).

For those who don't know, having a cast time on the heal has an insane amount of draw backs that aren't easily visible and cannot be quantified on a spread sheet since they exist outside of tooltips and numbers and affect the feel of gameplay (hence why the class relies so heavily on streak, and used to rely so heavily on shields too before they got nerfed into the ground, to create that buffer to ensure some semblance of reliability of those necessary heals).

The issues with cast times on heals are as follows:
1. Can be interrupted, this is the most obvious, but also the most punishing, as when interrupted, it hard locks the skill which means the class has no healing for upwards of 3 GCD, something no other class has to deal with when under pressure and going defensive.
2. Cannot be block cast or ani-cancelled with dodge roll to not only get a heal, but mitigate most or all incoming damage while healing back up.
3. The heal is delayed, this means you need to pre-cast the heal while under pressure, taking damage and likely being CC'd which leads back into points 1 and 2. This also means that you need to stop going on the offense sooner than you would on other classes since you cannot just hit an "oh ****" button and have it do its job instantly when you need it to.
4. Cannot bar swap while channeling, this forces you to remain on 1 bar while using the heal, you cannot bar swap while using it to cast a stun, re-cast a buff, attempt to go on the offense, etc. It also creates huge issues during poor performance as bar swap is notoriously buggy then. This also leads to some very clunky and awkward bar layouts when building the class because it's forced into trying to fit everything into both bars because if it doesn't it will get caught out.
5. Much clunkier to try and weave for additional damage, sustain, proc sets/passives/effects while casting.

It's these reasons that sorcerer (both mag and stam) has been so extremely over reliant on streak (and in the past BoL and shields) and why streak and shields had to be so strong, because the class's defense was completely unreliable and far too easily punished without these abilities being as strong as they are/were and we are seeing the result of this with only the nerf to shields. It's also why streak can't be nerfed with the current state of the class, the class needs this issue with its defenses fixed, otherwise the class is completely unplayable defensively for pvp if streak were to get nerfed too. (If you don't believe me, go try and play sorcerer without streak/BoL in small scale/solo open world pvp and you'll see just how horrifically bad the classes defensive options are when streak/BoL is removed from the equation).

Cast_El

StamSorc are in good spot right now. MagSorc and templar are need buff

StaticWave

Cast_El wrote: »

StamSorc are in good spot right now. MagSorc and templar are need buff

No, they are not. Stamsorcs have not gotten any defensive buffs in the form of a class burst heal and better class HoTs. This illusion of stamsorc being in a good spot is created by these two scenarios:

1) Players gravitate towards a kitey ranged hybrid stamsorc build with reliance on proc sets

2) Players who are melee run tankier builds and are at a damage disadvantage compared to other classes

The sole reason why most people run builds that fall into these two scenarios is the lack of a burst heal. When you run a ranged build with triple proc sets, you don’t need to use a burst heal that often unless you run into a ranged player. When you build tankier, you can stay above the execute threshold longer and not need a burst heal.

Take away the proc sets in scenario 1), and you have a mediocre ranged plar wannabe with worse defense. In scenario 2), you have better classes that can do more damage and be just as tanky.

Until the core issue is fixed, stamsorcs will continue to be a ranged gimmick spec and melee brawler sorcs will continue to be a weak class.

StaticWave

With hybridization, every class except stamsorc has access to magicka-based heals. This puts stamsorc even further below other classes in terms of survivability. Stamdk can use Coagulating Blood, stamden can use Artic Blast, stamcro can use Resistant Flesh, stamplar can use HoTD, stamblade can use Healthy Offering. What can stamsorc use? A weak pet that costs 2 bar slot, can be easily killed in 1 rotation, has a channel when recasting if killed AND requires casting it again for the actual heal, both of which cost a total of 7-8k magicka and 2 GCDs?

Stamsorc is literally the only class that cannot play a full damage build because their usable heals don’t scale with offensive stats like other classes. Try to go full damage as a melee stamsorc and you’ll find out the people you can only easily kill are mediocre and average players, and that’s only if you’re a decent player. Any above average player will make the fight much harder for you as a stamsorc. But that is not the case if you play a stronger class. The amount of effort I put in on stamsorc when dueling players of equal mechanical skill but on a stronger class is twice as much as theirs. The amount of effort I put in when playing a stronger class that I’ve spent a bit of time on is also much less than on my stamsorc. You can optimize a build to the tiniest detail but at the end of the day class strength difference exists and sometimes you just cannot beat a better class.

This is why most remaining stamsorcs either run a ranged hybrid spec with several proc sets and basically become a ultra-mobile pseudo magsorc, or run a tanky melee stamsorc with above average damage - enough to kill most players but not enough to kill decent or tankier players. Anybody who still runs a full damage melee stamsorc build is, no disrespect, either playing on console where the game is much less fast paced, or hasn’t run into players who can hard counter their build.

OBJnoob

@StaticWave Not offended-- promise-- but curious. What do you mean "more fast paced?" In what way?

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

@StaticWave Not offended-- promise-- but curious. What do you mean "more fast paced?" In what way?

Better camera speed, addons to help with buff/debuff tracking and theorycrafting (things like CMX that record values of damage, healing, etc.)

Builds on PC are, on average, better than console. When I still played several months ago, there was an influx of console transfers who still used stat sets like Wretched Vitality on stam characters. On PC nobody runs that set except for niche builds because there are better options.

So more stat-densed builds combined with better camera speed leads to quicker fights. If you’re a decent console player you will still do well but an average console player may find it harder.

Melzo

You are talking some nonsense. No matter how much I played pvp, I always saw how sorcerers do not die and kill the most. Yes, they can have trouble fighting in a fair 1v1 fight. Pvp is not 1v1. The sorcerer has the most damage in the game. Has the highest speed in the game and has a skill that gives you 3300 healing per second if you crit. Even if you only crit once every 2 seconds with all your skills, you still get the same or more than the healing of the ghost of the necromancer and the mortol coil in the place taken. You can easily overclock dps in pvp and get a crit chance of 30+. This will allow you to heal for 1600+ every 1-2 seconds. For example, the ghost of a necromancer heals every two seconds for 1000 health. The most you can complain about is direct healing. If you use this skill and a mara set and also have a passive from the first branch and calmly survive all the dot damage from the DK.

Stam Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes to kill players. If you're complaining about not killing players with high survivability, here's my answer. I can not, too. No one can. I play Necro and it's even harder for me to kill someone. There are players who are almost immortal, but don't think that reseeding to NB or DK will kill them right away.

You can't kill someone. Turned away and left. I can't afford this. I have to stay until the end and most of the time I die but you are a sorcerer. You choose your goals. You choose your own positions.

OBJnoob

Yes, okay, that makes sense. I can see how things would be a little faster paced as you say.

And I can agree that PC builds are better on average. Because of what you say and also perhaps just simple things like maybe it's more popular on PC, more players, more streamers, more communication, higher percentage of people on the forums.

I have often thought (and now it's your turn to not be offended!) that PC players have it easier than console players though. Because of the add-ons and PTS and stuff you mention. On console we really have to keep track of that stuff in our heads-- and I think perhaps that makes us more attentive. I think this may also contribute to our builds not being as min/maxed. We need that little extra sustain and/or tankyness to deal with the added element of uncertainty.

I think a good console player could learn how to use the extra tools provided by PC and become a very good PC player as well. Like it'd be 75% likely. A PC player losing all their tools coming to console would perhaps be even more out of their element and have perhaps only a 50% chance of acclimating.

I also think the "art" of handpicking useful add-ons for yourself is almost another layer of character customization for you folks. Almost as important as gear, abilities, and CP. And just like the others, some people do it better than others, and it becomes another layer of potential skillgap. Which enable PC players who "do it perfect" to be elevated higher above their peers than a "perfect" console player can be. In short I think it might be easier to X on PC than on console. What are your thoughts on that?

Alchimiste1

Melzo wrote: »

You are talking some nonsense. No matter how much I played pvp, I always saw how sorcerers do not die and kill the most. Yes, they can have trouble fighting in a fair 1v1 fight. Pvp is not 1v1. The sorcerer has the most damage in the game. Has the highest speed in the game and has a skill that gives you 3300 healing per second if you crit. Even if you only crit once every 2 seconds with all your skills, you still get the same or more than the healing of the ghost of the necromancer and the mortol coil in the place taken. You can easily overclock dps in pvp and get a crit chance of 30+. This will allow you to heal for 1600+ every 1-2 seconds. For example, the ghost of a necromancer heals every two seconds for 1000 health. The most you can complain about is direct healing. If you use this skill and a mara set and also have a passive from the first branch and calmly survive all the dot damage from the DK.

Stam Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes to kill players. If you're complaining about not killing players with high survivability, here's my answer. I can not, too. No one can. I play Necro and it's even harder for me to kill someone. There are players who are almost immortal, but don't think that reseeding to NB or DK will kill them right away.

You can't kill someone. Turned away and left. I can't afford this. I have to stay until the end and most of the time I die but you are a sorcerer. You choose your goals. You choose your own positions.

That's interesting. Because when I pvp I almost always focus the sorc first because they are the easiest to kill. Yes well necro the guardian also gives 10% damage mitigation. I think this is one of those cases where it would be better to look at the uptime of surge in practicality by checking cmx.

I think both dk and nb have more damage than ssorc. Warden with the right build arguably has more damage.

StaticWave

Melzo wrote: »

You are talking some nonsense. No matter how much I played pvp, I always saw how sorcerers do not die and kill the most. Yes, they can have trouble fighting in a fair 1v1 fight. Pvp is not 1v1. The sorcerer has the most damage in the game. Has the highest speed in the game and has a skill that gives you 3300 healing per second if you crit. Even if you only crit once every 2 seconds with all your skills, you still get the same or more than the healing of the ghost of the necromancer and the mortol coil in the place taken. You can easily overclock dps in pvp and get a crit chance of 30+. This will allow you to heal for 1600+ every 1-2 seconds. For example, the ghost of a necromancer heals every two seconds for 1000 health. The most you can complain about is direct healing. If you use this skill and a mara set and also have a passive from the first branch and calmly survive all the dot damage from the DK.

Stam Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes to kill players. If you're complaining about not killing players with high survivability, here's my answer. I can not, too. No one can. I play Necro and it's even harder for me to kill someone. There are players who are almost immortal, but don't think that reseeding to NB or DK will kill them right away.

You can't kill someone. Turned away and left. I can't afford this. I have to stay until the end and most of the time I die but you are a sorcerer. You choose your goals. You choose your own positions.

I’m not going to argue with someone who thinks he knows better than a 5 year stamsorc main. No offense, but anyone who spends 1 week of playing sorc will come to the same conclusion as mine.

You should try that before shutting my thread down. I’ve done my part for 5 years.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes, okay, that makes sense. I can see how things would be a little faster paced as you say.

And I can agree that PC builds are better on average. Because of what you say and also perhaps just simple things like maybe it's more popular on PC, more players, more streamers, more communication, higher percentage of people on the forums.

I have often thought (and now it's your turn to not be offended!) that PC players have it easier than console players though. Because of the add-ons and PTS and stuff you mention. On console we really have to keep track of that stuff in our heads-- and I think perhaps that makes us more attentive. I think this may also contribute to our builds not being as min/maxed. We need that little extra sustain and/or tankyness to deal with the added element of uncertainty.

I think a good console player could learn how to use the extra tools provided by PC and become a very good PC player as well. Like it'd be 75% likely. A PC player losing all their tools coming to console would perhaps be even more out of their element and have perhaps only a 50% chance of acclimating.

I also think the "art" of handpicking useful add-ons for yourself is almost another layer of character customization for you folks. Almost as important as gear, abilities, and CP. And just like the others, some people do it better than others, and it becomes another layer of potential skillgap. Which enable PC players who "do it perfect" to be elevated higher above their peers than a "perfect" console player can be. In short I think it might be easier to X on PC than on console. What are your thoughts on that?

Don’t worry I’m not offended at all haha. I think what addons do is help you min max everything better because you can rely on things like CMX to test multiple builds.

Console players and anyone who doesn’t use a lot of addons will usually go more by feeling than pure numbers. Mechanically both platforms are equal at the skill ceiling. It takes some slight adjustment but most decent console players will do well on PC. @React is a good example of a console transfer that is also a top player on PC after transition.

Personally I stopped using lots of addons years ago. I only keep several of them to rearrange the vanilla UI to suit my taste, and a buff/debuff tracker like Srendarr, which imo is 10x better than the vanilla buff tracker. I know some players like Pelican never uses addons although he’a always been a PC player.

StaticWave

OBJnoob wrote: »

Yes, okay, that makes sense. I can see how things would be a little faster paced as you say.

And I can agree that PC builds are better on average. Because of what you say and also perhaps just simple things like maybe it's more popular on PC, more players, more streamers, more communication, higher percentage of people on the forums.

I have often thought (and now it's your turn to not be offended!) that PC players have it easier than console players though. Because of the add-ons and PTS and stuff you mention. On console we really have to keep track of that stuff in our heads-- and I think perhaps that makes us more attentive. I think this may also contribute to our builds not being as min/maxed. We need that little extra sustain and/or tankyness to deal with the added element of uncertainty.

I think a good console player could learn how to use the extra tools provided by PC and become a very good PC player as well. Like it'd be 75% likely. A PC player losing all their tools coming to console would perhaps be even more out of their element and have perhaps only a 50% chance of acclimating.

I also think the "art" of handpicking useful add-ons for yourself is almost another layer of character customization for you folks. Almost as important as gear, abilities, and CP. And just like the others, some people do it better than others, and it becomes another layer of potential skillgap. Which enable PC players who "do it perfect" to be elevated higher above their peers than a "perfect" console player can be. In short I think it might be easier to X on PC than on console. What are your thoughts on that?

I think it really depends. There are definitely more low skilled players on PC because of sheer population size difference, so you can X easier if you run into them. There are also more organized zergs on PC, which will make Xing harder. It depends on who you encounter. Some days I have it easy fighting people who clearly don’t know what they’re doing. Some days I’m fighting zerglings who still don’t know what they’re doing, but do know the basic things of stunning/snaring, and just generally be a pain to fight against. I think Xing will still be hard regardless of platform though.

Most current addons are rather for aesthetic purposes. There used to be addons that would literally tell you when a ganker is loading up a combo, which would give you a massive advantage, but those days were long gone. Now the only useful addons are things like CMX like I mentioned, a cleaner/adjustable buff tracker, ultimate tracker, weapon damage tracker, etc. If you don’t like how chaotic the vanilla buff tracker is, then these addons are a nice QOL bonus lol.

Luede

Melzo wrote: »

You are talking some nonsense. No matter how much I played pvp, I always saw how sorcerers do not die and kill the most. Yes, they can have trouble fighting in a fair 1v1 fight. Pvp is not 1v1. The sorcerer has the most damage in the game. Has the highest speed in the game and has a skill that gives you 3300 healing per second if you crit. Even if you only crit once every 2 seconds with all your skills, you still get the same or more than the healing of the ghost of the necromancer and the mortol coil in the place taken. You can easily overclock dps in pvp and get a crit chance of 30+. This will allow you to heal for 1600+ every 1-2 seconds. For example, the ghost of a necromancer heals every two seconds for 1000 health. The most you can complain about is direct healing. If you use this skill and a mara set and also have a passive from the first branch and calmly survive all the dot damage from the DK.

Stam Sorcerer is one of the easiest classes to kill players. If you're complaining about not killing players with high survivability, here's my answer. I can not, too. No one can. I play Necro and it's even harder for me to kill someone. There are players who are almost immortal, but don't think that reseeding to NB or DK will kill them right away.

You can't kill someone. Turned away and left. I can't afford this. I have to stay until the end and most of the time I die but you are a sorcerer. You choose your goals. You choose your own positions.

1. the healing of crit surge is also affected by the -55%

2. if you need healing, you heal yourself, then you do no damage, therefore you cannot crit and get nothing from this skill. Yes, it can support you until you decide to go defensive, but from then on it is no longer useful from a healing point of view.

3.if you think stam sorc is easy, then please play one apart from the zerg, go 1vs1 into the world, take resources alone and fight alone, you will notice the disadvantages pretty quickly. standing in the second line in the zerg is easy.

I can also promise you that I am very often the first target, on the one hand I am of course dangerous if you ignore me, but unlike other classes I can also die extremely quickly and i am not able to tank my way through 2-3 opponents.

when i encounter multiple enemies an enemy sorc is also choice number 1, even if he doesn't die he is forced to go defensive and run LOS. it is not possible to sit out the damage, the healing is far too bad for that

Sergykid

u just keep throwing "no u wrong" argument to whoever answers.
the "5 year main" doesn't mean u r master of it. I often see 6-12 months players better than those that played for years.
just like i often encounter 5 star pvp rank players that have no clue what they are doing.

sorc changed and it looks like u remained on how it was. This is just like if templars come here and complain that they are too weak but they still spam sweeps.

sorc was easy to use to get high results. Now it's hard to use to get high results. As it should be.
in high mmr bgs i often encounter sorcs that actually know how to play it, a good sorc doesn't die unless he accepts to but also has the damage.

no changes should be done to sorcs, maybe a nerf to streak stun to only work from flank and a buff to class survivability, but nothing much.

OBJnoob

@StaticWave Yes that makes sense. Thanks for that explanation, I've always been curious.

@Sergykid I agree that there are sorcs who make it work. There are sorcs on my platform that do very well in high mmr bgs. Mostly magsorcs... I hardly ever see stamsorcs. Do they hide in the back, streak like lunatics, and just steal kills?? No, they're slightly better than that, but I'm sure that is part of it.

I disagree that streak needs to be nerfed. It's strong, sure, but not so strong it needs to be nerfed for them to get buffed in other areas. They need help-- albeit only a little help-- but they do NOT need a trade. A trade is not help.

StaticWave

Sergykid wrote: »

u just keep throwing "no u wrong" argument to whoever answers.
the "5 year main" doesn't mean u r master of it. I often see 6-12 months players better than those that played for years.
just like i often encounter 5 star pvp rank players that have no clue what they are doing.

sorc changed and it looks like u remained on how it was. This is just like if templars come here and complain that they are too weak but they still spam sweeps.

sorc was easy to use to get high results. Now it's hard to use to get high results. As it should be.
in high mmr bgs i often encounter sorcs that actually know how to play it, a good sorc doesn't die unless he accepts to but also has the damage.

no changes should be done to sorcs, maybe a nerf to streak stun to only work from flank and a buff to class survivability, but nothing much.

This will be my last response to you because from your response, you clearly lack experience playing my class.

1) I specifically used the “no you’re wrong argument” for you, and only you. Notice how I don’t use it for other people who did not try to shut my thread down.

Why? Because I have multiple videos on my youtube channel showcasing 1vX, BGs, smallscale, and build content. This is also not including the ones I deleted several years ago when I used to quit the game. For reference, here’s a link to my latest 1vX video 3 months ago:

https://youtu.be/VLTP4a1r1z4

I’m not throwing this out to brag about my skill or whatever. It’s to back up my claim of being a 5-year stamsorc main who not only tried every build and playstyle for the class, but also spent thousands of hours learning and relearning my class when a new patch drop by testing against other competent players on the PTS and live server AND creating builds that people can use.

So yes, I’m going to throw that argument out there for people like you because no offense, you clearly don’t have the same amount of experience I have on this class.

2) Apart from the above mentioned PvP content, I am also an avid dueler on PC NA. I was part of a guild called Legend that used to host tournaments with payouts up to 30+ million. I was the only stamsorc who won one of those tournaments in 3 years by climbing back from the losers bracket beating a top tier DK and magplar on PC NA.

I also spent thousands of hours dueling some of the best duelers on PC NA, both in tourney and no-rules builds. I’ve dueled all the aids and cheese you could come up with. Did I beat them all? Obviously not. There are builds that you just can’t beat. But I sure as hell survived for as long as I could and I am 100% confident that I can survive longer than most people on my class in a dueling environment.

So if I, a very seasoned stamsorc main, still struggle to survive against good players on better classes, then how do you expect an average player to do well? Most of them just don’t touch the class, or stop playing after several tries. When I still played, lots of people came to me and asked for build advice when they wanted to try their sorc. 90% of them gave up after a week because “they can’t survive damage”. Literally every single one of them said the same thing. It’s definitely not coincidence that stamsorc lacks healing power lol.

I’m speaking for many sorc mains when I say stamsorc needs a healing buff. You don’t have to agree with me, but if you’re gonna try to shut me down at least put in some effort. Saying “I see good stamsorcs do well” is not it. I also do well against mid tier players, but that’s not proving anything now does it?

StaticWave

And yes, I generally run builds that have at least 2 dots to maximize my chance of proccing Crit Surge. You can literally see that in my latest 1vX video when I opt for Caltrops instead of Pierce Armor. I also have a build with 5+ DoT sources (Caltrops, Hurricane, Quick Cloak, Rending Slashes, and charged off hand for Bleed and Poisoned status effects).

So don’t tell me how to play my class lol. If I have to do all that just to make ONE ability decent whereas a necro can just cast Spirit Guardian and get 10% mititgation + a heal every 2s, or a templar can just drop Ritual and get a heal every 2s, or a NB can just pop Dark Cloak and get a heal every 2s, then there’s a problem, a BIG ONE.

noblecron

How about a buff to other skills so that we don't have to have pets for every role XD

LukosCreyden

Good points, all, but let me tell you what StamSorc's REAL problem is.
This is an issue that sorely needs addressing ASAP.

Get rid of the transparency effect in hurricane. Myself and othrr people cannot see my very interesting character and their highly original fashion. Literally makes the class F-tier and unplayable.

(Seriously though, I hate the transparency effect please help.)