It is time to nerf mag DK

Xarc

pvp perspective here.
The magdk always had huge resistance and best sutain, and now you gave him too much power to kill people for like 1 year or more.

the fact you cant block/dodge petrify/focilize combined to whip on offbalance target makes it extremely powerfull.
whip alone is anyway too much powerfull, with sometimes 8k per hit against people with 30k armor and 2k crit resist is too much, and I dont even talk if target is vamp

Then you add a powerfull ultimate you cant dodge (DragonLeap) with the lower cost of all, like a finisher

This class is over powered, it is time for nerf

ofcourse, I can see people coming and saying the class is OK.
If you take alone each skill, yes it is. But in pvp everything is combo, like focilize+whip then dragonleap, for an exemple

MidniteOwl1913

No

Rkindaleft

I refuse

olsborg

Well I agree ofcourse, but that also goes for warden atm too, them heals are too overtuned.

Araneae6537

No more nerfs. Class skills keep getting diminished until the latest mythics and proc sets do everything.

And sure healing is strong in ball groups, but isn’t everything? As a small group or in PvE, the nerfs to healing already done are painful and make the role less fun to play.

OBJnoob

Make it so you can't spam FoO and I think the class would be alright. That's probably an out of the box solution that not many people would agree with... But it makes sense to me.

I don't personally have a problem with Corrosive. It's pretty OP from a defensive standpoint, but the offense just requires kiting. If they made it cost a little more to combat the high uptime ulti gen builds that'd be cool but it's not that big of a deal.

Whip? Meh. It's strong. But basically every class has an ability like that-- beetles, curse, assassin's will, etc etc.

What makes it all work in my opinion is being able to build stacks for whip by spamming an AoE direct damage spammable. It also gives Corrosive DKs more 'reach' than they should have when the only counterplay yo Corrosive is kiting.

Make it so FoO is the same... But it acts more like a buff than a spammable. 3 fireballs, 3 targets, every 5 seconds. But if you cast it again early all it does is reset the timer. So basically with my idea the first fireballs would go out at the 5 second mark not at the moment of casting.

This would force them to get a little more creative and risky with their bar space I think.

Xarc

Araneae6537 wrote: »

No more nerfs. Class skills keep getting diminished until the latest mythics and proc sets do everything.

And sure healing is strong in ball groups, but isn’t everything? As a small group or in PvE, the nerfs to healing already done are painful and make the role less fun to play.

there's no proc set in ravenwatch

AdamLAD

The only thing I'd change on DK is nerfing corrosive armour, nerfing the shield on dragon leap and giving the other morph of whip its undodgeable whip back. Then the class will be good but not broke.

Xarc

corrosive armour is also extremely powerfull ye

just wondering what skill isnt powerfull about master DK.
some skills arent used in pve so it would be easy to make a change without consequences for it.

As I said each skill alone is ok, and if you compare each one with a similar skill from other class, there's no problem.
but if you now check with passives... it's something else

exemple: whip,
- it's the same dmg, same cost than other class spammable : concealed weapon (nb), dive (warden), skull (necro)...
- but DK has passives like combustion, warmth, world in ruin, which increase dmg and slow people with flame damages.
- combined with corrosive armour which ignore resistance, you can have 40k resistance you're down in less than 5s in 4 hits.

robpr

Any specific proposed changes or just "please nerf"?

Because DK passives are mess and class doesnt have anything special. Snare on Warmth is comparable to Templar Jabs. No innate minor protection other classes have. Leap damage and stun is roughly the same as Shooting Star minus the shield. The sustain is not that great without going 100% aggressive with cheap ultimates, and the Whip depletes both resources.

I can only agree with healing on Battle Roar and Coag being busted. Whip doesnt hit that much harder than Frags, BB, Bow or Shalks and requires 3 casts of something before.

And thats from me, playing pvp on a Sorc, but DK is my PvE class that I will fight to the bone for.

axi

Why nerf mag DK when it's not even the strongest version of a class?

gariondavey

axi wrote: »

Why nerf mag DK when it's not even the strongest version of a class?

pretty much this
I mean dk is extremely oppressive in a 1v1, but they have almost always been like that.

Wardens and nightblades are outperforming dk in pvp, typically. Dk is still very good, much better than poor templar right now.

axi

gariondavey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Why nerf mag DK when it's not even the strongest version of a class?

pretty much this
I mean dk is extremely oppressive in a 1v1, but they have almost always been like that.

Wardens and nightblades are outperforming dk in pvp, typically. Dk is still very good, much better than poor templar right now.

It wasn't what i meant. Mag DK specifically is not the strongest version of a dragonknight class. Hybrid version is.

Xarc

robpr wrote: »

Any specific proposed changes or just "please nerf"?

maybe read the posts, not only title ?

axi wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Why nerf mag DK when it's not even the strongest version of a class?

pretty much this
I mean dk is extremely oppressive in a 1v1, but they have almost always been like that.

Wardens and nightblades are outperforming dk in pvp, typically. Dk is still very good, much better than poor templar right now.

It wasn't what i meant. Mag DK specifically is not the strongest version of a dragonknight class. Hybrid version is.

hybrid is magicka based or stamina based, but often it's magicka with stam based weapons.
so hybrid are mainly mag dk with 2handed or dual weapons.

axi

Xarc wrote: »

robpr wrote: »

Any specific proposed changes or just "please nerf"?

maybe read the posts, not only title ?

axi wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Why nerf mag DK when it's not even the strongest version of a class?

pretty much this
I mean dk is extremely oppressive in a 1v1, but they have almost always been like that.

Wardens and nightblades are outperforming dk in pvp, typically. Dk is still very good, much better than poor templar right now.

It wasn't what i meant. Mag DK specifically is not the strongest version of a dragonknight class. Hybrid version is.

hybrid is magicka based or stamina based, but often it's magicka with stam based weapons.
so hybrid are mainly mag dk with 2handed or dual weapons.

The setup i have in mind for example have 6 magicka and 3 stamina abilities plus whip which is 50/50. So You normally You would said it's magicka but dominant resource on this setup is stamina (like 24k stam vs 15k mag) and he wears 5 medium pieces. His offense comes more from stamina but his defense comes more from magicka while secondary resource still plays important part in both categories. So yeah it's a hybrid.

The_Titan_Tim

It’s the sustain and healing that are the problem, you can spam Ash Cloud with one Reduce Magicka Cost glyph to have unlimited Stamina, every time your Burning or Poisoned procs you get more resources and your ultimate gives you resources back aswell.

Coagulating Blood is the best heal in the entire game which makes very little sense, I thought healing was a Templar thing? Why does over half of the DK toolkit heal them while they are fighting with unlimited sustain, massive mitigation, and best ultimates? Great on their own as they provide the best of BOTH defense and offense together, yet give back a ton of resources?

Ferocious Leap gives a full bar shield when you do a massive AoE knockback burst of damage.

Corrosive gives you up to 97% damage mitigation and 100% direct damage penetration for 10 seconds… all while able to build ultimate for your next one.

Standard is the only ultimate in a generally balanced state because of the lower % to damage increases and mitigation while inside of it.

As I mentioned earlier, healing and sustain are way too powerful on the class right now, I don’t care if they can dot you up or tank some damage, it’s when they’re able to keep up the pressure indefinitely and heal through all of your burst… that’s when it becomes a problem.

Elendir2am

DK toolkit is most expensive from all classes. It make sustainability for DK weak point. DK need to use ultimate to overcome this problem, but they cannot use ultimate for its purpose as result.
magDK has many strongness, but sustainability cannot be farer from them.

Answer for question, "why nerf magDK"....
A lot of vampires in PvP and they don't like warriors of fire.

The_Titan_Tim

Elendir2am wrote: »

DK toolkit is most expensive from all classes. It make sustainability for DK weak point. DK need to use ultimate to overcome this problem, but they cannot use ultimate for its purpose as result.
magDK has many strongness, but sustainability cannot be farer from them.

Answer for question, "why nerf magDK"....
A lot of vampires in PvP and they don't like warriors of fire.

Have you ever played a DK? Making the argument that the abilities cost a lot, does not negate the argument that their passives give you too much sustain to afford spamming their most expensive abilities. The reasoning behind the nerf to Burning and Poisoned was that “Dragonknights are supposed to struggle with resources” to compensate for their massive damage, yet aren’t.

You have Dragonknights able to afford dropping damage and throwing on a tank set and still securing kills against great players while classes like Templar have to run full damage just to get close to killing people.

jecks33

pve perspective here.

No.

Syiccal

Elendir2am wrote: »

DK toolkit is most expensive from all classes. It make sustainability for DK weak point. DK need to use ultimate to overcome this problem, but they cannot use ultimate for its purpose as result.
magDK has many strongness, but sustainability cannot be farer from them.

Answer for question, "why nerf magDK"....
A lot of vampires in PvP and they don't like warriors of fire.

This used to be the case but I don't believe it is any more, dk is not my main yet when I play sustain is not one of its problems or cost of skills even in stage 3 vamp.

Xarc

every class needs a balance between sustain / damages / resitance

but DK has natural sustain for every ressources by many ways in the hearthen earth abilities tree AND natural bonuses for flame / poison damages... AND natural resistance with draconic tree.
Maybe the skill themselves arent a problem but the DK passives are?

It's not obvious to find the problem even if we can feel there's one.

Vevvev

My main is a magDK so I'm coming in with a bias, but why?

Stamina DK is where all the absolutely brutal damage is coming from, and as others have said the class has always been designed to be brutal and oppressive in a 1v1.

Real issue is Corrosive Armor and for the longest time that was a stamDK exclusive so revert it back. If anything revert back most of this hybridization stuff as it's not been healthy for the game.

Dr_Con

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

It’s the sustain and healing that are the problem, you can spam Ash Cloud with one Reduce Magicka Cost glyph to have unlimited Stamina, every time your Burning or Poisoned procs you get more resources and your ultimate gives you resources back aswell.

Coagulating Blood is the best heal in the entire game which makes very little sense, I thought healing was a Templar thing? Why does over half of the DK toolkit heal them while they are fighting with unlimited sustain, massive mitigation, and best ultimates? Great on their own as they provide the best of BOTH defense and offense together, yet give back a ton of resources?

Ferocious Leap gives a full bar shield when you do a massive AoE knockback burst of damage.

Corrosive gives you 97% damage mitigation and 100% direct damage penetration for 10 seconds… all while able to build ultimate for your next one.

Standard is the only ultimate in a generally balanced state because of the lower % to damage increases and mitigation while inside of it.

As I mentioned earlier, healing and sustain are way too powerful on the class right now, I don’t care if they can dot you up or tank some damage, it’s when they’re able to keep up the pressure indefinitely and heal through all of your burst… that’s when it becomes a problem.

Half of your argument was about their ultimates, the same can be said for any class though. It's not like they're using all three ultimates on you at once.

The_Titan_Tim

Dr_Con wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

It’s the sustain and healing that are the problem, you can spam Ash Cloud with one Reduce Magicka Cost glyph to have unlimited Stamina, every time your Burning or Poisoned procs you get more resources and your ultimate gives you resources back aswell.

Coagulating Blood is the best heal in the entire game which makes very little sense, I thought healing was a Templar thing? Why does over half of the DK toolkit heal them while they are fighting with unlimited sustain, massive mitigation, and best ultimates? Great on their own as they provide the best of BOTH defense and offense together, yet give back a ton of resources?

Ferocious Leap gives a full bar shield when you do a massive AoE knockback burst of damage.

Corrosive gives you up to 97% damage mitigation and 100% direct damage penetration for 10 seconds… all while able to build ultimate for your next one.

Standard is the only ultimate in a generally balanced state because of the lower % to damage increases and mitigation while inside of it.

As I mentioned earlier, healing and sustain are way too powerful on the class right now, I don’t care if they can dot you up or tank some damage, it’s when they’re able to keep up the pressure indefinitely and heal through all of your burst… that’s when it becomes a problem.

Half of your argument was about their ultimates, the same can be said for any class though. It's not like they're using all three ultimates on you at once.

How can the same be said for any class? No other ultimates in the game have equal levels of offense, defense and sustain tied to the same ability, you ward for as much damage as you do with Ferocious Leap, and you mitigate up to 97% of incoming damage and deal 100% of your direct damage using Corrosive and get a massive boost to all three resources to take greater advantage of the already huge advantage you have for using an ultimate…

Northern Storm has 10% mitigation through Major Protection,

Crescent Sweep gets 5% through Minor Protection from a passive,

Frozen Colossus, the Necro damage ultimate gets a stun,

Soul Tether, which gives a burst heal and a semi decent heal-over-time…

Sorcerer has Overload? Atronach?

I’m confused here.

axi

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

It’s the sustain and healing that are the problem, you can spam Ash Cloud with one Reduce Magicka Cost glyph to have unlimited Stamina, every time your Burning or Poisoned procs you get more resources and your ultimate gives you resources back aswell.

Coagulating Blood is the best heal in the entire game which makes very little sense, I thought healing was a Templar thing? Why does over half of the DK toolkit heal them while they are fighting with unlimited sustain, massive mitigation, and best ultimates? Great on their own as they provide the best of BOTH defense and offense together, yet give back a ton of resources?

Ferocious Leap gives a full bar shield when you do a massive AoE knockback burst of damage.

Corrosive gives you 97% damage mitigation and 100% direct damage penetration for 10 seconds… all while able to build ultimate for your next one.

Standard is the only ultimate in a generally balanced state because of the lower % to damage increases and mitigation while inside of it.

As I mentioned earlier, healing and sustain are way too powerful on the class right now, I don’t care if they can dot you up or tank some damage, it’s when they’re able to keep up the pressure indefinitely and heal through all of your burst… that’s when it becomes a problem.

Half of your argument was about their ultimates, the same can be said for any class though. It's not like they're using all three ultimates on you at once.

How can the same be said for any class? No other ultimates in the game have equal levels of offense, defense and sustain tied to the same ability, you ward for as much damage as you do with Ferocious Leap, and you mitigate 97% of incoming damage and deal 100% of your direct damage using Corrosive and get a massive boost to all three resources to take greater advantage of the already huge advantage you have for using an ultimate…

Northern Storm has 10% mitigation through Major Protection,

Crescent Sweep gets 5% through Minor Protection from a passive,

Frozen Colossus, the Necro damage ultimate gets a stun,

Soul Tether, which gives a burst heal and a semi decent heal-over-time…

Sorcerer has Overload? Atronach?

I’m confused here.

"You mitigate 97% of incoming dmg and deal 100% of Your direct dmg" ? Sorry but that is not how math works.

The_Titan_Tim

axi wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

It’s the sustain and healing that are the problem, you can spam Ash Cloud with one Reduce Magicka Cost glyph to have unlimited Stamina, every time your Burning or Poisoned procs you get more resources and your ultimate gives you resources back aswell.

Coagulating Blood is the best heal in the entire game which makes very little sense, I thought healing was a Templar thing? Why does over half of the DK toolkit heal them while they are fighting with unlimited sustain, massive mitigation, and best ultimates? Great on their own as they provide the best of BOTH defense and offense together, yet give back a ton of resources?

Ferocious Leap gives a full bar shield when you do a massive AoE knockback burst of damage.

Corrosive gives you 97% damage mitigation and 100% direct damage penetration for 10 seconds… all while able to build ultimate for your next one.

Standard is the only ultimate in a generally balanced state because of the lower % to damage increases and mitigation while inside of it.

As I mentioned earlier, healing and sustain are way too powerful on the class right now, I don’t care if they can dot you up or tank some damage, it’s when they’re able to keep up the pressure indefinitely and heal through all of your burst… that’s when it becomes a problem.

Half of your argument was about their ultimates, the same can be said for any class though. It's not like they're using all three ultimates on you at once.

How can the same be said for any class? No other ultimates in the game have equal levels of offense, defense and sustain tied to the same ability, you ward for as much damage as you do with Ferocious Leap, and you mitigate 97% of incoming damage and deal 100% of your direct damage using Corrosive and get a massive boost to all three resources to take greater advantage of the already huge advantage you have for using an ultimate…

Northern Storm has 10% mitigation through Major Protection,

Crescent Sweep gets 5% through Minor Protection from a passive,

Frozen Colossus, the Necro damage ultimate gets a stun,

Soul Tether, which gives a burst heal and a semi decent heal-over-time…

Sorcerer has Overload? Atronach?

I’m confused here.

"You mitigate 97% of incoming dmg and deal 100% of Your direct dmg" ? Sorry but that is not how math works.

100% - 3% = 97%?
100% damage - 0 resistances = 100% damage?

Something not adding up here?

See I have a DK, I play every class. If you want more help with math, let me know and I’ll get on any class and share some more screenshots.

Danel_Vadan

lol skill issue

axi

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

axi wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

It’s the sustain and healing that are the problem, you can spam Ash Cloud with one Reduce Magicka Cost glyph to have unlimited Stamina, every time your Burning or Poisoned procs you get more resources and your ultimate gives you resources back aswell.

Coagulating Blood is the best heal in the entire game which makes very little sense, I thought healing was a Templar thing? Why does over half of the DK toolkit heal them while they are fighting with unlimited sustain, massive mitigation, and best ultimates? Great on their own as they provide the best of BOTH defense and offense together, yet give back a ton of resources?

Ferocious Leap gives a full bar shield when you do a massive AoE knockback burst of damage.

Corrosive gives you 97% damage mitigation and 100% direct damage penetration for 10 seconds… all while able to build ultimate for your next one.

Standard is the only ultimate in a generally balanced state because of the lower % to damage increases and mitigation while inside of it.

As I mentioned earlier, healing and sustain are way too powerful on the class right now, I don’t care if they can dot you up or tank some damage, it’s when they’re able to keep up the pressure indefinitely and heal through all of your burst… that’s when it becomes a problem.

Half of your argument was about their ultimates, the same can be said for any class though. It's not like they're using all three ultimates on you at once.

How can the same be said for any class? No other ultimates in the game have equal levels of offense, defense and sustain tied to the same ability, you ward for as much damage as you do with Ferocious Leap, and you mitigate 97% of incoming damage and deal 100% of your direct damage using Corrosive and get a massive boost to all three resources to take greater advantage of the already huge advantage you have for using an ultimate…

Northern Storm has 10% mitigation through Major Protection,

Crescent Sweep gets 5% through Minor Protection from a passive,

Frozen Colossus, the Necro damage ultimate gets a stun,

Soul Tether, which gives a burst heal and a semi decent heal-over-time…

Sorcerer has Overload? Atronach?

I’m confused here.

"You mitigate 97% of incoming dmg and deal 100% of Your direct dmg" ? Sorry but that is not how math works.

100% - 3% = 97%?
100% damage - 0 resistances = 100% damage?

Something not adding up here?

See I have a DK, I play every class. If you want more help with math, let me know and I’ll get on any class and share some more screenshots.

Yeah like I've said already, that's not how math works.

Limiting incoming dmg to 3% of Your HP is not the same as reducing incoming dmg by 97%. For corrosive to reach 97% mitigation something would have to literally one shot You without corrosive. So how many thing in PvP hits You for 30k+ with single hit? There is a big difference between reducing someting down to 3% or reducing something down to 3% OF YOUR HEALTH.

Resistances are just one factor out of many playing role in calculating final dmg done, and it's not like You have 0 penetration before using corrosive.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

gariondavey

axi wrote: »

gariondavey wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Why nerf mag DK when it's not even the strongest version of a class?

pretty much this
I mean dk is extremely oppressive in a 1v1, but they have almost always been like that.

Wardens and nightblades are outperforming dk in pvp, typically. Dk is still very good, much better than poor templar right now.

It wasn't what i meant. Mag DK specifically is not the strongest version of a dragonknight class. Hybrid version is.

I know

Syiccal

axi wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

axi wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

The_Titan_Tim wrote: »

It’s the sustain and healing that are the problem, you can spam Ash Cloud with one Reduce Magicka Cost glyph to have unlimited Stamina, every time your Burning or Poisoned procs you get more resources and your ultimate gives you resources back aswell.

Coagulating Blood is the best heal in the entire game which makes very little sense, I thought healing was a Templar thing? Why does over half of the DK toolkit heal them while they are fighting with unlimited sustain, massive mitigation, and best ultimates? Great on their own as they provide the best of BOTH defense and offense together, yet give back a ton of resources?

Ferocious Leap gives a full bar shield when you do a massive AoE knockback burst of damage.

Corrosive gives you 97% damage mitigation and 100% direct damage penetration for 10 seconds… all while able to build ultimate for your next one.

Standard is the only ultimate in a generally balanced state because of the lower % to damage increases and mitigation while inside of it.

As I mentioned earlier, healing and sustain are way too powerful on the class right now, I don’t care if they can dot you up or tank some damage, it’s when they’re able to keep up the pressure indefinitely and heal through all of your burst… that’s when it becomes a problem.

Half of your argument was about their ultimates, the same can be said for any class though. It's not like they're using all three ultimates on you at once.

How can the same be said for any class? No other ultimates in the game have equal levels of offense, defense and sustain tied to the same ability, you ward for as much damage as you do with Ferocious Leap, and you mitigate 97% of incoming damage and deal 100% of your direct damage using Corrosive and get a massive boost to all three resources to take greater advantage of the already huge advantage you have for using an ultimate…

Northern Storm has 10% mitigation through Major Protection,

Crescent Sweep gets 5% through Minor Protection from a passive,

Frozen Colossus, the Necro damage ultimate gets a stun,

Soul Tether, which gives a burst heal and a semi decent heal-over-time…

Sorcerer has Overload? Atronach?

I’m confused here.

"You mitigate 97% of incoming dmg and deal 100% of Your direct dmg" ? Sorry but that is not how math works.

100% - 3% = 97%?
100% damage - 0 resistances = 100% damage?

Something not adding up here?

See I have a DK, I play every class. If you want more help with math, let me know and I’ll get on any class and share some more screenshots.

Yeah like I've said already, that's not how math works.

Limiting incoming dmg to 3% of Your HP is not the same as reducing incoming dmg by 97%. For corrosive to reach 97% mitigation something would have to literally one shot You without corrosive. So how many thing in PvP hits You for 30k+ with single hit? There is a big difference between reducing someting down to 3% or reducing something down to 3% OF YOUR HEALTH.

Resistances are just one factor out of many playing role in calculating final dmg done, and it's not like You have 0 penetration before using corrosive.

[snip]

It's irrelevant really the point is corrosive is the only ult in the game that gives big boost to sustain, reduces dmg by huge amount and allows 100% penetration all at once.

[edited to remove quote]

boi_anachronism_

Please don't ask for anymore nerfs.. it always ends up being a sledgehammer...