JABS Lore unfriendly

Captain_Devildog

Crafting Motif 95: Nighthollow Staves

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.
"The Elder Scrolls Online" Is not Lore friendly anymore with this change.

Would the development team have any kind of love in their hearts to their costumers who supported the game since the beginning and just solve this issiue.

[edited for minor bashing]

Dr_Con

ArchMikem wrote: »

[snip]

idk. naruto running into area 51 is timeless

to the op, the new jab style probably wasn't designed with weaving LAs in mind, the spear style is pretty unimportant. Many see the animation as being deeply flawed, if they kept the spear style but changed the animation people would still be upset, but if they changed the spear style but kept the animation few would bat an eye.

[edited to remove quote]

Kisakee

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

Crafting Motif 95: Nighthollow Staves

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.
"The Elder Scrolls Online" Is not Lore friendly anymore with this change.

Would the development team have any kind of love in their hearts to their costumers who supported the game since the beginning and just solve this issiue.

It's totally lore friendly. You're not getting a real spear to spawn in but an aetherial version that focusses and directs the weapon's destructive energy to an enemy which is exactly what you see - a "magic" version of the weapon.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth in addition to some bashing from this thread.

• Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.

This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

spartaxoxo

I don't think it's lore unfriendly. Just because it resembles the Nighthollow spear doesn't mean it is the Nighthollow spear.

Vindold

It's just looks like Devs don't have enough resources to make a high quality vfx\animations and sadly it creates a pretty bad impression, not to say that from day 1 most of ESO's vfx & animations in general is bad even by 2014 standarts.

Captain_Devildog

Kisakee wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

[snip]

You said that wrong it's "EXPOSING?!".

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

Crafting Motif 95: Nighthollow Staves

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.
"The Elder Scrolls Online" Is not Lore friendly anymore with this change.

Would the development team have any kind of love in their hearts to their costumers who supported the game since the beginning and just solve this issiue.

It's totally lore friendly. You're not getting a real spear to spawn in but an aetherial version that focusses and directs the weapon's destructive energy to an enemy which is exactly what you see - a "magic" version of the weapon.

[edited to remove quote]

If you think this is lore friendly then you don't know anything about the lore.

Kisakee

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

[snip]

You said that wrong it's "EXPOSING?!".

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

Crafting Motif 95: Nighthollow Staves

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.
"The Elder Scrolls Online" Is not Lore friendly anymore with this change.

Would the development team have any kind of love in their hearts to their costumers who supported the game since the beginning and just solve this issiue.

It's totally lore friendly. You're not getting a real spear to spawn in but an aetherial version that focusses and directs the weapon's destructive energy to an enemy which is exactly what you see - a "magic" version of the weapon.

[edited to remove quote]

If you think this is lore friendly then you don't know anything about the lore.

So why's that? Just because my opinion is different from yours? What do you expect to happen, using this skin only for weapons not having body contact to enemies?

Grizzbeorn

withdrawn

Kisakee

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.

Source?
Where is the info from ZOS which states that they used the Nighthollow staff as the model for the new Jabs animation?

Or was this something that you came up with yourself after reading the lorebook for Nighthollow Staves, and you just think the description in the book resembles the animation?

Well you can't really deny it:

Garethp

Generally not used for stabbing

It's a good thing we're using it for jabbing then, not stabbing

Freelancer_ESO

Dr_Con wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

[snip]

idk. naruto running into area 51 is timeless

to the op, the new jab style probably wasn't designed with weaving LAs in mind, the spear style is pretty unimportant. Many see the animation as being deeply flawed, if they kept the spear style but changed the animation people would still be upset, but if they changed the spear style but kept the animation few would bat an eye.

[edited to remove quote]

Puncturing Strikes:

This ability and its morphs now hit 3 times over a channel time of 800ms, rather than 4 times over 1 second.
Implemented new animations and visual effects to match the attack cadence.
Reduced the cost of this ability and the Puncturing Sweeps morph to 2295, down from 2700.
Reduced the overall damage of the primary attack by approximately 21% since this ability no longer incurs a DPS loss while weaving within the 1 second global cooldown window.
Increased the damage of the Area of Effect hits by approximately 7%.
Reduced the duration of the snare to 0.5 seconds per hit, down from 1 second.
Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611025/pts-patch-notes-v8-1-0

They changed the damage due to the assumption the player would be weaving better with the change.

SaffronCitrusflower

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

Crafting Motif 95: Nighthollow Staves

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.
"The Elder Scrolls Online" Is not Lore friendly anymore with this change.

Would the development team have any kind of love in their hearts to their costumers who supported the game since the beginning and just solve this issiue.

[edited for minor bashing]

I sincerely hope this issue remains on the forefront of the forums until ZOS catches a clue and rectifies their horrible mistake of using a night hollow stave for templars when it's supposed to be a spear of light, just like all the other templar spear animations.

This change firmly fits into the "what were they thinking???" category.

SaffronCitrusflower

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think it's lore unfriendly. Just because it resembles the Nighthollow spear doesn't mean it is the Nighthollow spear.

Except it IS a glowing night hollow stave used for the animation. According to lore, templars fight evil, they don't use evil vampiric weapons themselves. So using the night hollow stave for a templar animation IS lore breaking, not just strange looking and spastic.

Grizzbeorn

withdrawn

Oakenaxe

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think it's lore unfriendly. Just because it resembles the Nighthollow spear doesn't mean it is the Nighthollow spear.

It doesn't "resemble", it IS the Nighthollow Staff lol

I created a topic about this in August (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/615537/new-jabs-animation-is-lore-unfriendly#latest)

spartaxoxo

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think it's lore unfriendly. Just because it resembles the Nighthollow spear doesn't mean it is the Nighthollow spear.

Except it IS a glowing night hollow stave used for the animation. According to lore, templars fight evil, they don't use evil vampiric weapons themselves. So using the night hollow stave for a templar animation IS lore breaking, not just strange looking and spastic.

No. It's a reused asset for the gameplay side of things. But, in the lore, the Aedric Spear's lore did not change. So, they aren't using a Nighthollow staff. They are using an Aedric spear. It just so happens that it looks like the Nighthollow staff

The_Titan_Tim

IMO, this is what I envision an Aedric Spear would look like; just made of light.

ProudMary

No doubt about it, it's a night hollow stave.

Kisakee wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.

Source?
Where is the info from ZOS which states that they used the Nighthollow staff as the model for the new Jabs animation?

Or was this something that you came up with yourself after reading the lorebook for Nighthollow Staves, and you just think the description in the book resembles the animation?

Well you can't really deny it:

Dagoth_Rac

Maybe the Nighthollow Clan designed the look of their staves as a dark mockery of the Templar jab? ;-)

Suna_Ye_Sunnabe

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Maybe the Nighthollow Clan designed the look of their staves as a dark mockery of the Templar jab? ;-)

Templar is a mockery of itself, now. No need for assistance.

UnabashedlyHonest

Kisakee wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.

Source?
Where is the info from ZOS which states that they used the Nighthollow staff as the model for the new Jabs animation?

Or was this something that you came up with yourself after reading the lorebook for Nighthollow Staves, and you just think the description in the book resembles the animation?

Well you can't really deny it:

How can anyone claim the new jabs animation isn't a night hollow stave? Thanks for the pics.

tsaescishoeshiner

No one's contesting that the model used for the weapon is the same model that's used for the Nighthollow staff, that just doesn't lead to it being canon that templars are using a Nighthollow weapon. It's clear that this is meant to visually represent a ritualistic spear, which is what it looks like to me. I prefer the old animation, and the Imperial Champion staff would also work, but Nighthollow fits aesthetically for a magic spear attack to me.

In order for something to be lore-breaking, doesn't it have to be making a statement about the lore or canon? I just don't see that as happening here.

If we wanted to come up with a lore explanation, there are many. As the motif page says, this weapon style is effective at focusing energy. We don't know that the Nighthollow invented it, or if it was just an effective weapon from their time. Did the Resolutes find or research this spell from an ancient source? Also the Nighthollow are still holed up underground, so do the Resolutes even know that the spell looks like the Nighthollow staves?

Last note: If I recall right, player Templars aren't "evil"-fighters by definition. They're using martial techniques and magic used by the Resolutes of Stendarr, not necessarily members of that order.

xthrshx

It’s 100% lore-breaking. You can’t just handwave away the implications of using the same (extremely distinctive) asset. Visual storytelling is a major component of lore, for everything from architecture, racial features, geography, clothing style, and weapon design. Undermining that as a narrative device just undoes all the work that goes into establishing visual congruity in the first place.

This is, once again, in addition to the fact that the weapon looks nothing like a spear and the way it’s held and thrust is hilariously wrong. It’s simply a bad design. There is zero subjectivity in this. It’s bad.

NotaDaedraWorshipper

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think it's lore unfriendly. Just because it resembles the Nighthollow spear doesn't mean it is the Nighthollow spear.

Except it IS a glowing night hollow stave used for the animation. According to lore, templars fight evil, they don't use evil vampiric weapons themselves. So using the night hollow stave for a templar animation IS lore breaking, not just strange looking and spastic.

No. It's a reused asset for the gameplay side of things. But, in the lore, the Aedric Spear's lore did not change. So, they aren't using a Nighthollow staff. They are using an Aedric spear. It just so happens that it looks like the Nighthollow staff

They could have designed a new spear or used dozens of other staff styles that would've been more spear looking and does not belong to a clan of vampires whose motif lore even mentions how it's not for stabbing.

It's a stupid choice if anything.

Dr_Con

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Dr_Con wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

[snip]

idk. naruto running into area 51 is timeless

to the op, the new jab style probably wasn't designed with weaving LAs in mind, the spear style is pretty unimportant. Many see the animation as being deeply flawed, if they kept the spear style but changed the animation people would still be upset, but if they changed the spear style but kept the animation few would bat an eye.

[edited to remove quote]

Puncturing Strikes:

This ability and its morphs now hit 3 times over a channel time of 800ms, rather than 4 times over 1 second.
Implemented new animations and visual effects to match the attack cadence.
Reduced the cost of this ability and the Puncturing Sweeps morph to 2295, down from 2700.
Reduced the overall damage of the primary attack by approximately 21% since this ability no longer incurs a DPS loss while weaving within the 1 second global cooldown window.
Increased the damage of the Area of Effect hits by approximately 7%.
Reduced the duration of the snare to 0.5 seconds per hit, down from 1 second.
Puncturing Sweeps (morph):
Reduced the healing of this morph to 33%, down from 40%.
Fixed an issue where this morph was only healing up to 5 times in large target count encounters, instead of the intended 6 times.
Biting Jabs: This morph now also increases the damage of the Area of Effect portion of the attack by 25%, in addition to the base 7% damage increase.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611025/pts-patch-notes-v8-1-0

They changed the damage due to the assumption the player would be weaving better with the change.

Clearly their focus group doesn't know how to weave then, or provide proper feedback. The spear effect after a jab completes is some of the jankiest i've seen in this game. It also makes me want to mute sound effects in my game.

The 1.8 timing is ok for weaving, but the animation is not.

francesinhalover

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

Crafting Motif 95: Nighthollow Staves

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.
"The Elder Scrolls Online" Is not Lore friendly anymore with this change.

Would the development team have any kind of love in their hearts to their costumers who supported the game since the beginning and just solve this issiue.

[edited for minor bashing]

tbh if it does get solved it's only during the time the new expansion releases. that's when most big changes happen-

Jaraal

xthrshx wrote: »

It’s 100% lore-breaking. You can’t just handwave away the implications of using the same (extremely distinctive) asset. Visual storytelling is a major component of lore, for everything from architecture, racial features, geography, clothing style, and weapon design. Undermining that as a narrative device just undoes all the work that goes into establishing visual congruity in the first place.

This is, once again, in addition to the fact that the weapon looks nothing like a spear and the way it’s held and thrust is hilariously wrong. It’s simply a bad design. There is zero subjectivity in this. It’s bad.

ZOS has shown plenty of disregard for lore in the past, this should surprise no one. Remember the Legion Zero banners that were repurposed into "Alliance" banners, even though Legion Zero is our sworn enemy? And The Legion Zero banners were simply copied and pasted from ancient Yokudan banners in Craglorn to begin with.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/510143/alliance-banner-bought-from-impresario-is-legion-zero-banner/p1

spartaxoxo

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

SaffronCitrusflower wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I don't think it's lore unfriendly. Just because it resembles the Nighthollow spear doesn't mean it is the Nighthollow spear.

Except it IS a glowing night hollow stave used for the animation. According to lore, templars fight evil, they don't use evil vampiric weapons themselves. So using the night hollow stave for a templar animation IS lore breaking, not just strange looking and spastic.

No. It's a reused asset for the gameplay side of things. But, in the lore, the Aedric Spear's lore did not change. So, they aren't using a Nighthollow staff. They are using an Aedric spear. It just so happens that it looks like the Nighthollow staff

They could have designed a new spear or used dozens of other staff styles that would've been more spear looking and does not belong to a clan of vampires whose motif lore even mentions how it's not for stabbing.

It's a stupid choice if anything.

Oh. I also dislike the animation. So, you won't get any argument from me it could have been better. I just don't agree that it's lore breaking, since for me personally I still consider it distinct from the Nighthollow's spear.


For me personally, the reason for the change is so disconnected from the game's lore that it goes into the category of gameplay balance conceits that aren't actually part of lore. I feel the same way about the bounties in the game, for example. Yes, a guard anywhere will accost me for having a bounty. But, I don't think in the lore that the guards of Wayrest are communicating instantly with the guards of say Fargrave, or that those guards would care that I stole an apple in Wayrest. It's just a balance issue so that there is some risk involved in stealing.

In this case, it feels like they only considered balance when changing it and didn't pay any attention to visual storytelling when they made the change.

Jaraal

francesinhalover wrote: »

Captain_Devildog wrote: »

Crafting Motif 95: Nighthollow Staves

This is the model of the new Templar animation of the "Jabs" after U35. Yes, you read that right.
"The Elder Scrolls Online" Is not Lore friendly anymore with this change.

Would the development team have any kind of love in their hearts to their costumers who supported the game since the beginning and just solve this issiue.

[edited for minor bashing]

tbh if it does get solved it's only during the time the new expansion releases. that's when most big changes happen-

In order for it to be "solved," ZOS would have to acknowledge that there's a problem. Their silence on the matter would seem to indicate that they are quite happy with their new animation and lore choice of weapon.... regardless of the overwhelmingly negative reception from players.

merpins

The staff and lore implications aren't what bothers me. [snip] But the animation itself is what bothers me. I've gone into why the animation is terrible since they released the PTS for U35. I'm a professional animator, and I'll make it short. The animation ignores many essential principles of animation, principles that exist as a guide because without them, animation looks bad. The animation is basically just keyframes with no cleanup, and is possible for a seasoned animator to make in under an hour considering it reuses that motif as an asset. I could go into depth as to how it can be animated quickly, why it's not a good animation, the tools that were probably used in the making of the animation, the differences between Inverse and Forward Kinematics when it comes to 3D animation, explain the principles of animation in detail and what was skipped, why it wasn't changed back and why it probably won't be changed back. But I've done that already ad nauseam since it was shown in the U35 PTS. So I won't. But I also won't be playing the main that I've played since the game came out in 2014 because the skill that kept me coming back to that class time and time again is gone. They could have nerfed the skill into the dirt and I still would have enjoyed the class. But they basically just removed it as far as I'm concerned.

[edited for bashing]