TOS-breaking names: another clarification is needed

Genfe

My friend is Bulgarian and names characters off of their folklore.


Got 3 name changes this week

kargen27

"The name "Relequen" is not protected by United States copyright and is not a registered United States trademark."

Names are not usually individually copyrighted but names are protected if they are a part of a copyrighted work.

MJ202

My character naming convention is as follows:

Using two or three words, I select a descriptor to fit my characters backstory. I then translate it from English into either a Gaelic, Nordic, or Germanic language, which are the European regions my ancestors hail from. I play around with it a bit until I get something which looks like a name and not a phrase.

For example, I have a female Breton werewolf who goes by the name Vargdam. Loosely translated from it's Nordic roots it means Wolf Lady.

Syldras

MJ202 wrote: »

I then translate it from English into either a Garlic, Nordic, or Germanic language, which are the European regions my ancestors hail from.

I hope this is autocorrect for "Gaelic"...
Not mocking you, just found the typo funny.

MJ202

Syldras wrote: »

MJ202 wrote: »

I then translate it from English into either a Garlic, Nordic, or Germanic language, which are the European regions my ancestors hail from.

I hope this is autocorrect for "Gaelic"...
Not mocking you, just found the typo funny.

Yes it was, thanks. Fixed.

whitecrow

I speak the language of garlic.

Genfe

whitecrow wrote: »

I speak the language of garlic.

Literal Garlic God

TaSheen

There is no such thing as too much garlic.

Sallymen

Ah here we go again.

TiaFrye

Hi, @ZOS_Kevin ! Any updates from customer support?

Redguards_Revenge

Would the name MolagBalls be ok?

Elsonso

Redguards_Revenge wrote: »

Would the name MolagBalls be ok?

Nope.

The similar names need to be distinctly different enough, both written and phonetically. Again, circling back to the previous point about circumstance dependent. The example given "Razum-Dar > Rasum-Tar" is different enough written. However, it could pose a potential problem phonetically. If it was "Razum-Dar > Ralum-Tar", you may fair a better chance. The point here is, try to make the name look and sound different enough.

Ball sounds like Bal.

TooWeak2Live

I had a toon named "Fetaljuice" (obviously a play on Beetlejuice) for more than 2 years when it was suddenly banned. I read the guidelines many times and could not find any clause it violated. I asked customer service to clarify what rule it violated and they outright refused, in fact they were hostile.

ZOS_Kevin

TiaFrye wrote: »

Next part is a question: is using the other part of NPC name (not family name)/recognizable part of property name against TOS? According to my friend's situation it is.
Is any people who named their characters something like (using single-named characters for maximum similarity) "Probably Not Fennorian" or "Caska of Beer" are in danger?

Just heard back on this from Customer Service, @TiaFrye. Using the example of "Probably Not Fennorian" as it contains the name of a character, despite the name phrasing the name would be asked to be changed by customer service.

VaranisArano

TooWeak2Live wrote: »

I had a toon named "Fetaljuice" (obviously a play on Beetlejuice) for more than 2 years when it was suddenly banned. I read the guidelines many times and could not find any clause it violated. I asked customer service to clarify what rule it violated and they outright refused, in fact they were hostile.

I'm just a member of the peanut gallery, but...read it literally, and not as the play on words you say you were making, and it's not hard to see why they removed it.

TiaFrye

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Next part is a question: is using the other part of NPC name (not family name)/recognizable part of property name against TOS? According to my friend's situation it is.
Is any people who named their characters something like (using single-named characters for maximum similarity) "Probably Not Fennorian" or "Caska of Beer" are in danger?

Just heard back on this from Customer Service, @TiaFrye. Using the example of "Probably Not Fennorian" as it contains the name of a character, despite the name phrasing the name would be asked to be changed by customer service.

Thank you, really appreciate getting the info. It's sad but I know that we can do very little about it.

Elsonso

TooWeak2Live wrote: »

I had a toon named "Fetaljuice" (obviously a play on Beetlejuice) for more than 2 years when it was suddenly banned. I read the guidelines many times and could not find any clause it violated. I asked customer service to clarify what rule it violated and they outright refused, in fact they were hostile.

Uh, a "play on Beetlejuice" was not the first thing that popped into my head. It does rhyme with "Beetlejuice", so I will give you that.

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

TiaFrye wrote: »

Next part is a question: is using the other part of NPC name (not family name)/recognizable part of property name against TOS? According to my friend's situation it is.
Is any people who named their characters something like (using single-named characters for maximum similarity) "Probably Not Fennorian" or "Caska of Beer" are in danger?

Just heard back on this from Customer Service, @TiaFrye. Using the example of "Probably Not Fennorian" as it contains the name of a character, despite the name phrasing the name would be asked to be changed by customer service.

Insightful. Thanks for following up.

JoeCapricorn

"Fetaljuice" sounds like a goregrind band name.

"MolagBalls" ... eh, they seem to be a bit sensitive to any references to willy orbs.

"Probably Not Fennorian" ... hmm...

I wonder, what about an Argonian named "Simps-For-Fennorian"?

tomofhyrule

@ZOS_Kevin , thank you for responding. However, I know a lot of people are still nervous about this circumstance.

haelene wrote: »

Also what happens if they "stole" my name?

I have a character whose last name is Nighthollow and has been for years before the Dark Heart of Skyrim. (I have a theme in which my characters names are {something that fits them}hollow. So like Stonehollow/Frosthollow ect.) So why should I have to change my name when the first time the Nighthollow clan's name is mentioned in TES lore is the Dark Heart of Skyrim?

What if someone a few years back had made a character named e.g. "Stefan Mornard," before any mention of the High Isle chapter existed. It's a lore-friendly name, so it's likely that someone could have chosen it.

Now, with the release of Galen, we have a major NPC who shares that name.

Does the person who had that name before get forced to change the name their character may have had for years just because ZOS's writers happened to choose the same name?

This is one of the bigger fears from this thread since many Lore-interested players are using lists of Elder Scrolls names to name their own characters, and there is always the chance that a similar or same name could then be chosen for an upcoming piece of content.

Are players expected to avoid using lore-friendly names to prevent this circumstance?

emilyhyoyeon

The response Mod Kevin got from customer service is interesting.


Considering that names like ''Probably Not Fennorian'' are not ok, I think my workaround of adding a title to my characters' names should mean that does nothing to protect them.

I have an altmer named Tullanisse Starborne. If ZOS makes an altmer character named Tullanisse--not super likely but possible considering that the name follows altmer linguistic naming conventions--my Tullanisse Starborne is now at risk then?


This also doesn't make sense to me because it's been confirmed by Gina that, despite Abnur Tharn being a main character, a character named Gina Tharn is ok. So, the response Mod Kevin got from support implies that Gina Tharn shouldn't be ok because it still contains the name Tharn.

Since Fennorian was the example, does this only apply to first names or something? Abnur [insert random unused last name here] is not ok, but Gina Tharn is?


I'm honestly with most people here where I can generally use common sense on what names would be not allowed for XYZ reasons, but this clarification surprises me.

JoeCapricorn

I would hope that they would have the ability to see when the name was created.

If a future Black-Marsh chapter had a main character named Fen-Wander, I would fight tooth and nail to keep my Fen-Wander. I've already had a character name appear in a later chapter, but he was a very minor one in the main story of Southern Elsweyr, while my character Jiren-Dar was made for Summerset.

I don't think I'll be ever asked to change Jiren-Dar, but if I do I will post about it here.

TiaFrye

tomofhyrule wrote: »

@ZOS_Kevin , thank you for responding. However, I know a lot of people are still nervous about this circumstance.

haelene wrote: »

Also what happens if they "stole" my name?

I have a character whose last name is Nighthollow and has been for years before the Dark Heart of Skyrim. (I have a theme in which my characters names are {something that fits them}hollow. So like Stonehollow/Frosthollow ect.) So why should I have to change my name when the first time the Nighthollow clan's name is mentioned in TES lore is the Dark Heart of Skyrim?

What if someone a few years back had made a character named e.g. "Stefan Mornard," before any mention of the High Isle chapter existed. It's a lore-friendly name, so it's likely that someone could have chosen it.

Now, with the release of Galen, we have a major NPC who shares that name.

Does the person who had that name before get forced to change the name their character may have had for years just because ZOS's writers happened to choose the same name?

This is one of the bigger fears from this thread since many Lore-interested players are using lists of Elder Scrolls names to name their own characters, and there is always the chance that a similar or same name could then be chosen for an upcoming piece of content.

Are players expected to avoid using lore-friendly names to prevent this circumstance?

This.
From my understanding now UESP list of names is very dangerous to use because even if there's a bunch of NPCs named the same in game, support already forbid you from using these. Real life names of Bretons (french) and Nords (scandinavian) might pass but what about Dunmer, Altmer?
Are only major-main NPCs are forbidden to be same named with or now we can't have lore friendly names at all?

baratron

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The name "Relequen" is used in ESO, and my interpretation is that "Captain", a title not a proper name, is not enough of a distinction. Now, if they had used "GinaRelequen" that might have been acceptable.

Also the character Relequen literally holds the title of captain. I don't see any real distinction between "Relequen, Wing Captain" and "Captain Relequen." It's just rearranging the way the name is presented in the lorebook. I don't think it negates the initial question that was posed. I think that question is worthy of distinction.

Yes, I agree. The actual problem that @CaptainRelequen is experiencing here is that their @name is EXACTLY the same as the NPC. Theoretically, a promotion to @GeneralRelequen or demotion to @SergeantRelequen would be allowed.

But yes, what would happen if you had a name and then a new NPC got named that? Would you still be asked to change it? Could be pretty hurtful if you've had the name since 2014, and then you're told to change it in 2023.

ghastley

ZOS do have the database where all existing player-chosen names are recorded. It would not be a complex query to find out if a new NPC name was in use, and for them to respect their own rules in not duplicating names already in use. Then, once the name is picked, it can equally be blocked from character creation before the update that includes the NPC is released.

If they can just tell us that is happening, then all those fears can be laid to rest. How about it, @ZOS_Kevin ?

Elsonso

ghastley wrote: »

ZOS do have the database where all existing player-chosen names are recorded. It would not be a complex query to find out if a new NPC name was in use, and for them to respect their own rules in not duplicating names already in use. Then, once the name is picked, it can equally be blocked from character creation before the update that includes the NPC is released.

I do wish that ZOS would weigh in on the matter, but my expectation is that they don't query to see if names are used. At least, not all of the names. Maybe they do it for the 3 or 4 main characters in a Chapter/DLC, but to do that for every new character? Unless this is an automated process, I don't see them taking the time. If there ends up being a conflict, customer service can sort it out after the DLC/Chapter is released. That is what I expect, at least.

tomofhyrule

I wish that ZOS would take this into consideration, especially since...

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

we do recognize that this process can be very frustrating, as many of you are just trying to have fun and bring your roleplay characters to life. For them to have a place in the world you're playing in.

Some of us have spent years with our characters, and the avid RPers are likely using combinations of names found in other Elder Scrolls games. It would be devastating to have to change the name of a character who we've been with for years just because ZOS decides to use that name as a random enemy in their next chapter or something.

Maybe if ZOS had a list of characters whose /played is over 50 days so they could avoid those when naming their characters? That means we've spent 1200 hours on just that character. There's no story ZOS writes that's even half that long.

ghastley wrote: »

ZOS do have the database where all existing player-chosen names are recorded. It would not be a complex query to find out if a new NPC name was in use, and for them to respect their own rules in not duplicating names already in use. Then, once the name is picked, it can equally be blocked from character creation before the update that includes the NPC is released.

If they can just tell us that is happening, then all those fears can be laid to rest. How about it, @ZOS_Kevin ?

I wish that would be the case. Maybe if ZOS had an 'account' on each server that they could just make a 'character' to block off any names they're going to use while they're writing, just to make sure the issue of ZOS stealing a name never happens.

JoeCapricorn wrote: »

I've already had a character name appear in a later chapter, but he was a very minor one in the main story of Southern Elsweyr

This is another interesting question. Is there a level where NPCs are 'too important to be copied?' Or to put it another way, are there some NPCs who are minor enough that sharing names will not be a TOS violation?

I'm sure all of us know that a name like "Naryu Virian" or "Darien Gautier" are not appropriate as those are major NPCs. Everyone knows them. But what about "Brihana," an NPC people interact with but likely don't know the name of (she's the IC Nobles's district daily quest giver). Or a generic quest NPC like the generic named enemy in the example mentioned above, or someone like "Meniel" (she's an NPC that gives the pointer quest for Elden Root after you complete the Haven objective and doesn't exist in game otherwise)? Or someone less important than that, like "Tendir Vlaren?" Or someone even totally inconsequential like "Izabid?" Three points to anyone who knows who either of those NPCs without looking them up.

Tendir Vlaren is one of the Guild Traders in Shornhelm, and Izabid is a generic Khajiit with no dialogue hiding in the Senchal Outlaw's Refuge

These discussions about TOS violations in names lately have actually gotten me pretty panicked; it seems that section 6.1 is much broader than we'd all have originally expected, and it seems that there is now conflict between various sources where acceptable names like what Gina suggested from before "e.g. 'Gina Tharn'" are considered not appropriate by other sources.

JoeCapricorn

I admit I have another character that takes a name from an established NPC (also not a major one, except for one vanilla quest), but I created him before I knew that was a "violation"

There is absolutely no harm in it.

There is absolutely no reason to force players to change a name for this reason alone, especially if it is merely taken from the game itself.

There is no logic to it.

6.1 is causing more harm than good, and right now that balance is extremely lopsided toward the harm end of it.

Throw it away.

TiaFrye

baratron wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

The name "Relequen" is used in ESO, and my interpretation is that "Captain", a title not a proper name, is not enough of a distinction. Now, if they had used "GinaRelequen" that might have been acceptable.

Also the character Relequen literally holds the title of captain. I don't see any real distinction between "Relequen, Wing Captain" and "Captain Relequen." It's just rearranging the way the name is presented in the lorebook. I don't think it negates the initial question that was posed. I think that question is worthy of distinction.

Yes, I agree. The actual problem that @CaptainRelequen is experiencing here is that their @name is EXACTLY the same as the NPC. Theoretically, a promotion to @GeneralRelequen or demotion to @SergeantRelequen would be allowed.

But yes, what would happen if you had a name and then a new NPC got named that? Would you still be asked to change it? Could be pretty hurtful if you've had the name since 2014, and then you're told to change it in 2023.

Thing is NPC is just 'Relequen' in game. World name, displayed name, is just that. Like Fennorian, like Caska, like many others NPCs. Their title or family name is assumed not displayed and for some time people assumed that as long as it's not displayed name copy it's okay. But it's doesn't really matter now. According to Kevin any use of the first name of canon character unless it's heavily modified - spelling and phonetically - is against TOS.

TE5LA

Naming rules can get pretty crazy. I was once banned from a FPS server in a WW2-themed game because my name was "CrossHairz". Their reason? The double "S" in the name.

kargen27

TooWeak2Live wrote: »

I had a toon named "Fetaljuice" (obviously a play on Beetlejuice) for more than 2 years when it was suddenly banned. I read the guidelines many times and could not find any clause it violated. I asked customer service to clarify what rule it violated and they outright refused, in fact they were hostile.

Did you happen to kill someone in Cyrodiil before the forced name change? A friend after having a really good night of PvP was forced to change his characters name after players he had popped reported the name. He explained the source of the name and all that fun stuff. He did get more than you did from customer support though. They told him there were multiple reports that the name was offensive and even though he didn't mean it to be offensive the ban on the name would stay in place.