TOS-breaking names: another clarification is needed

TiaFrye

Earlier in June we had a discussion about names using 'easter eggs' to ZOS property fans sometimes do while naming characters. For a time Gina's response was clear enough but I'm afraid we indeed would like additional clarification.

A friend of mine recently got a message from customer support about their @ violating TOS. I'll add all the pictures below for you to expect. Was given permission to do so.
After following suggested steps my friend got an automatic response (presumably) saying that their 'ban appeal' was rejected. That was quite a tense moment. Fortunately it was followed by a person responding but question remains. Unfortunately my friend don't have a forum acc so it falls to me to ask a question.

Last official response on which names are okay and not okay we had from Gina was:

...using Tamrielic house names or other lore-friendly names is fine and isn't breaking the TOS. What we don't allow is using the proper name of major characters, bosses, etc.

As I see it:
- full name used for NPC in game, the ones that you see while in dialogue, as well as other property of ZOS, is against TOS - Abnur Tharn, Queen Ayrenn, Count Verandis Ravenwatch (that one won't even fit, it's too long);
- user|character name using a family name are not against TOS - Gina Tharn, Lara Rawenwatch;
- user|character name using similar names but different spelling are not against TOS - Razum-Dar > Rasum-Tar

Next part is a question: is using the other part of NPC name (not family name)/recognizable part of property name against TOS? According to my friend's situation it is.
Is any people who named their characters something like (using single-named characters for maximum similarity) "Probably Not Fennorian" or "Caska of Beer" are in danger?

I will be very grateful for your answer and clarification. @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Kevin
We're just fans loving your creation and showing that in a specific way.

irswat

Someone reported my necromancer for the name Talitha *** which is Aramaic for "little girl arise." Its what Jesus said to the little girl when he raised her from the dead, so I thought i would be a good name for a female necromancer. Zos forced a name change. Case and point: there is no rhyme or reason or consistency. There is no method to their madness. They are just making it up as they go along.

PrinceShroob

Section 6.1, the cited section, states ” 6.1 You will not post, transmit, promote or distribute any dynamic or static user-created or custom content which is not wholly owned by the account owner. Names or material protected by copyright, trademark or other intellectual property rights cannot be used at any time except by the rightsholder. Rights ownership must be established prior to use on any ZeniMax Media, Inc. site or service. Any use of material protected by intellectual property rights that is not wholly owned by the account owner is a violation of the Agreement, including the Code of Conduct.”

This is incredibly broad and seems to state that you may not use a name protected by any country’s intellectual property laws from any media in human history. I question how support is familiar enough with these standards to enforce them, particularly given inconsistent worldwide copyright law (for example, Gaston Leroux’s The Phantom of the Opera is in the public domain in the United States, but not in France; naming a character ”Raoul de Chagny” would, therefore, violate 6.1, assuming Raoul is even protected by intellectual property laws).

Additionally, I should note that while fictional characters may be protected by copyright or trademark, they are not necessarily.

Finally, 6.1 provides no mitigating circumstances. If I name a character after myself and I happen to share a name with a copyrighted fictional character, that’s it.

It seems to me that the only way that support could be sure that any copyright was violated would be if it belongs to Zenimax—assuming, of course, that Zenimax actually has intellectual property rights in its characters.

If support does not vet character and account names in advance, this section is ripe for abuse, since someone—who is not even the name’s copyright holder— can report your name regardless of any mitigating circumstances.

haelene

Also what happens if they "stole" my name?

I have a character whose last name is Nighthollow and has been for years before the Dark Heart of Skyrim. (I have a theme in which my characters names are {something that fits them}hollow. So like Stonehollow/Frosthollow ect.) So why should I have to change my name when the first time the Nighthollow clan's name is mentioned in TES lore is the Dark Heart of Skyrim?

Syldras

irswat wrote: »

Someone reported my necromancer for the name Talitha *** which is Aramaic for "little girl arise."

I looked that up and, let's put it like this, I can imagine why this was reported. Most people don't know any Aramaic and will have different associations with that phrase (I personally would have just assumed it's a common surname in some language).

emilyhyoyeon

haelene wrote: »

Also what happens if they "stole" my name?

I have a character whose last name is Nighthollow and has been for years before the Dark Heart of Skyrim. (I have a theme in which my characters names are {something that fits them}hollow. So like Stonehollow/Frosthollow ect.) So why should I have to change my name when the first time the Nighthollow clan's name is mentioned in TES lore is the Dark Heart of Skyrim?

I'm pretty sure if Nighthollow is used like ''Gina Nighthollow'' it's considered the same as ''Gina Tharn,'' and is okay.

I'm concerned about the them-stealing-my-name thing in cases like: having an altmer character named Fennorian for years before Fennorian comes out in Greymoor.

Since I go for lore friendly names, this has always made me slightly uneasy, so all of my characters now (except one old one) have a title thing attached onto their name. My ''Fennorian'' is named ''Fennorian Spellslinger,'' for example.

Amottica

irswat wrote: »

Someone reported my necromancer for the name Talitha *** which is Aramaic for "little girl arise." Its what Jesus said to the little girl when he raised her from the dead, so I thought i would be a good name for a female necromancer. Zos forced a name change. Case and point: there is no rhyme or reason or consistency. There is no method to their madness. They are just making it up as they go along.

This is a good point since anything biblical is notr protected by copyright nor is it ESO related or property of Zenimax. It would seem the person at Zenimax who took this action may have been confused and some additional training might be in line.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Kevin Can you please chime in on this.

Thank you

JKorr

Amottica wrote: »

irswat wrote: »

Someone reported my necromancer for the name Talitha *** which is Aramaic for "little girl arise." Its what Jesus said to the little girl when he raised her from the dead, so I thought i would be a good name for a female necromancer. Zos forced a name change. Case and point: there is no rhyme or reason or consistency. There is no method to their madness. They are just making it up as they go along.

This is a good point since anything biblical is notr protected by copyright nor is it ESO related or property of Zenimax. It would seem the person at Zenimax who took this action may have been confused and some additional training might be in line.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Kevin Can you please chime in on this.

Thank you

It wasn't the Talitha part. It was the second part. Yes, because some minds are in the gutter constantly some words end up censored when minds above the gutter see no issue.

Paralyse

TOS enforcement actions are entirely arbitrary and 100% at the discretion of ZOS.

A player might get reported for their name; 5 employees might look at it, and those 5 might all have different decisions. ZOS themselves admit in their own response e-mails to questions about account suspensions that enforcement is subjective and based on things like previous offenses, "severity" of the offense, the number of complaints received, and other categories that cast a very broad net with which ZOS can go fishing for TOS violations.

Bottom line -- if a ZOS moderator thinks a name is a TOS violation -- that's all that matters. Their interpretation of the TOS is the "law of the land." The TOS is so broad and overarching that nearly anything a player does can be interpreted as a violation under the right circumstances. But this is common for ALL MMO's, not just ESO, and has been that way in online gaming for many years now.

Dr_Con

Gina can't control or overwrite what support do in this respect and it's been a point of frustration for them. I recall they tried to get support to reverse a decision about someone's name and support wouldn't relent.

Essentially, the naming rules aren't enforced arbitrarily as people don't just sit around reporting others for name infractions such as this, it is more likely that [your friend] upset someone. There's many more naming violations that go unaddressed for years simply because no one bothered to report. ZOS can't even find the time to get on and ban all the actual bots on XBOX who are botting this very second, you think they went through everyone's name and banned Captain Relequen? No, someone made a report about it. Whether this is a case of someone weaponizing staff through a report, or someone's Elder Scrolls Online Sister Company of Bethesda owned by Microsoft gaming experience being legitimately ruined by a name as innocuous as this, is anyone's guess.

I'm predicting this topic gets locked and a message from one of the community managers gets sent to your DMs.

Amottica

JKorr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

irswat wrote: »

Someone reported my necromancer for the name Talitha *** which is Aramaic for "little girl arise." Its what Jesus said to the little girl when he raised her from the dead, so I thought i would be a good name for a female necromancer. Zos forced a name change. Case and point: there is no rhyme or reason or consistency. There is no method to their madness. They are just making it up as they go along.

This is a good point since anything biblical is notr protected by copyright nor is it ESO related or property of Zenimax. It would seem the person at Zenimax who took this action may have been confused and some additional training might be in line.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Kevin Can you please chime in on this.

Thank you

It wasn't the Talitha part. It was the second part. Yes, because some minds are in the gutter constantly some words end up censored when minds above the gutter see no issue.

Without knowing the word, and of course, it cannot be repeated here, it seems by your comment here that the view on the word is rather subjective.

ZOS_Kevin

Hi all, wanted to chime in here. We're not going to address the specific case cited as that is dealing with someone else's interactions w/ customer service.

However, as we have alluded to before in earlier conversations about this, it is difficult to give completely clear guidelines, as it is circumstance dependent.

TiaFrye wrote: »

As I see it:
- full name used for NPC in game, the ones that you see while in dialogue, as well as other property of ZOS, is against TOS - Abnur Tharn, Queen Ayrenn, Count Verandis Ravenwatch (that one won't even fit, it's too long);
- user|character name using a family name are not against TOS - Gina Tharn, Lara Rawenwatch;
- user|character name using similar names but different spelling are not against TOS - Razum-Dar > Rasum-Tar

This is correct for the most part. With the added caveat for the last point. The similar names need to be distinctly different enough, both written and phonetically. Again, circling back to the previous point about circumstance dependent. The example given "Razum-Dar > Rasum-Tar" is different enough written. However, it could pose a potential problem phonetically. If it was "Razum-Dar > Ralum-Tar", you may fair a better chance. The point here is, try to make the name look and sound different enough.

TiaFrye wrote: »

Next part is a question: is using the other part of NPC name (not family name)/recognizable part of property name against TOS? According to my friend's situation it is.
Is any people who named their characters something like (using single-named characters for maximum similarity) "Probably Not Fennorian" or "Caska of Beer" are in danger?

We are seeking clarification on this now, so the hope is to follow up tomorrow with official guidance. However, our general advice while we are waiting for customer service to get back to us is to avoid using the proper names if you can, even if the name is noting that they are not said person.

Also, if anyone does not agree with the action taken, please make sure you appeal the action. Customer Service ultimately makes the final call in these matters. It may be helpful to work with them on an approved name as well, to make sure you're in the clear and avoid a name change again.

TiaFrye wrote: »

We're just fans loving your creation and showing that in a specific way.

Lastly to address the point above, we do recognize that this process can be very frustrating, as many of you are just trying to have fun and bring your roleplay characters to life. For them to have a place in the world you're playing in. Sometimes real world legal protection comes into play and we understand it isn't ideal, but is a necessary part of making sure everyone is protected here.

Hopefully this was somewhat helpful. We will have more instances like this, but we will take these to customer service each time to chat about how we can make the process better so that there are better ways to allow everyone to be able to roleplay.

TaSheen

You can find it using google: search on "Talitha little girl arise".

CoronHR

meanwhile, you see the most ridiculous names running around tamriel, like 'i'm not your aunt' or something like that

Syldras

haelene wrote: »

Also what happens if they "stole" my name? I have a character whose last name is Nighthollow and has been for years before the Dark Heart of Skyrim. (I have a theme in which my characters names are {something that fits them}hollow. So like Stonehollow/Frosthollow ect.) So why should I have to change my name when the first time the Nighthollow clan's name is mentioned in TES lore is the Dark Heart of Skyrim?

This is an interesting question. What would happen in that case, if an npc with the same (or a very similar) name is added later? Would the player character's name have to be changed?

corrosivechains

Ok, after reading this I kind of have a question in Orsimer naming conventions and "not using specific character's names"...does that apply to clan names as well? Orsimer clans and last name conventions are similar to Celtic clan and last name conventions where it's usually adopted from a clan head or famous family members. I mostly play Orcs, and while most of them have surnames of my own unique characters, I do have a necromancer with the last name "gro-Thukhozod" with the idea that he adopted that surname for studying Thukhozod's teachings of necromancy.

TaSheen

I had a contact with CS about that very thing. I'd made a character with the name of Alielle Stormhawk, back in Elsweyr. And then came Western Skyrim with Stormhawk's Altar (the assumption I made was that the "Stormhawk" of the Altar was a person).

So I put in a ticket "reporting" myself for having a character with the name of a place and perhaps a someone in the game. The first response was.... very confusing, as it didn't have anything to do with my question (not exactly unusual). I replied, explaining again at more length and in an attempt to clarify. The response to that was something like "you shouldn't worry about it".

I did worry about it. So I deleted her, and remade her under another name.

Syldras

I think surnames are okay. Most Dunmer folk bearing lore-conforming character names I see have assigned themselves to an established Dunmer family (I did the same, btw), some even to the main families of the Great Houses, calling themselves Hlaalu, Telvanni, Indoril,... If that would against the TOS, I wouldn't see a dozen of these names each day. The interesting question is, what would happen if a new npc with the same first and last name appears. Some Dunmer first names are very common, so it is possible something like that happens.

TaSheen

Syldras wrote: »

I think surnames are okay. Most Dunmer folk bearing lore-conforming character names I see have assigned themselves to an established Dunmer family (I did the same, btw), some even to the main families of the Great Houses, calling themselves Hlaalu, Telvanni, Indoril,... If that would against the TOS, I wouldn't see a dozen of these names each day. The interesting question is, what would happen if a new npc with the same first and last name appears. Some Dunmer first names are very common, so it is possible something like that happens.

I had problems in the other MMOs I played with using lore-friendly but "in game" surnames, so I just opted to never go there in this game. My characters and their names are very important to me.... all of them (and that's a LOT).

NotaDaedraWorshipper

corrosivechains wrote: »

Ok, after reading this I kind of have a question in Orsimer naming conventions and "not using specific character's names"...does that apply to clan names as well? Orsimer clans and last name conventions are similar to Celtic clan and last name conventions where it's usually adopted from a clan head or famous family members. I mostly play Orcs, and while most of them have surnames of my own unique characters, I do have a necromancer with the last name "gro-Thukhozod" with the idea that he adopted that surname for studying Thukhozod's teachings of necromancy.

@corrosivechains As has been previously said, such things are fine. Same as you can use Tharn, Hlaalu, af- Leki, at-Sentinel, gro-Arzug, or a bunch of other names just fine. Just as long as you don't directly or too closely copy a character's name. So Bazrag gro-Fharun is a no go, but Khagra gro-Fharun or Bazrag gro-Yagash would be perfectly fine. Same as Serverus Tharn or Abnur Drusus are fine but not Abnur Tharn.

corrosivechains

Thank you for the clarification everyone, it's appreciated and eased my concerns a bit

TiaFrye

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, wanted to chime in here. We're not going to address the specific case cited as that is dealing with someone else's interactions w/ customer service.

However, as we have alluded to before in earlier conversations about this, it is difficult to give completely clear guidelines, as it is circumstance dependent.

TiaFrye wrote: »

As I see it:
- full name used for NPC in game, the ones that you see while in dialogue, as well as other property of ZOS, is against TOS - Abnur Tharn, Queen Ayrenn, Count Verandis Ravenwatch (that one won't even fit, it's too long);
- user|character name using a family name are not against TOS - Gina Tharn, Lara Rawenwatch;
- user|character name using similar names but different spelling are not against TOS - Razum-Dar > Rasum-Tar

This is correct for the most part. With the added caveat for the last point. The similar names need to be distinctly different enough, both written and phonetically. Again, circling back to the previous point about circumstance dependent. The example given "Razum-Dar > Rasum-Tar" is different enough written. However, it could pose a potential problem phonetically. If it was "Razum-Dar > Ralum-Tar", you may fair a better chance. The point here is, try to make the name look and sound different enough.

TiaFrye wrote: »

Next part is a question: is using the other part of NPC name (not family name)/recognizable part of property name against TOS? According to my friend's situation it is.
Is any people who named their characters something like (using single-named characters for maximum similarity) "Probably Not Fennorian" or "Caska of Beer" are in danger?

We are seeking clarification on this now, so the hope is to follow up tomorrow with official guidance. However, our general advice while we are waiting for customer service to get back to us is to avoid using the proper names if you can, even if the name is noting that they are not said person.

Also, if anyone does not agree with the action taken, please make sure you appeal the action. Customer Service ultimately makes the final call in these matters. It may be helpful to work with them on an approved name as well, to make sure you're in the clear and avoid a name change again.

TiaFrye wrote: »

We're just fans loving your creation and showing that in a specific way.

Lastly to address the point above, we do recognize that this process can be very frustrating, as many of you are just trying to have fun and bring your roleplay characters to life. For them to have a place in the world you're playing in. Sometimes real world legal protection comes into play and we understand it isn't ideal, but is a necessary part of making sure everyone is protected here.

Hopefully this was somewhat helpful. We will have more instances like this, but we will take these to customer service each time to chat about how we can make the process better so that there are better ways to allow everyone to be able to roleplay.

Thank you so much for a detailed response! Will patiently await for more info on the last question -part and really appreciate it.

MJ202

JKorr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

irswat wrote: »

Someone reported my necromancer for the name Talitha *** which is Aramaic for "little girl arise." Its what Jesus said to the little girl when he raised her from the dead, so I thought i would be a good name for a female necromancer. Zos forced a name change. Case and point: there is no rhyme or reason or consistency. There is no method to their madness. They are just making it up as they go along.

This is a good point since anything biblical is notr protected by copyright nor is it ESO related or property of Zenimax. It would seem the person at Zenimax who took this action may have been confused and some additional training might be in line.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Kevin Can you please chime in on this.

Thank you

It wasn't the Talitha part. It was the second part. Yes, because some minds are in the gutter constantly some words end up censored when minds above the gutter see no issue.

Depending on the version of Biblical translituration you read, there are three possible spellings from Aramaic to English. Two versions are four letters, versus three letters, and those two both begin with the letter K, versus the letter C. Likewise Talitha could also be spelled as Talita when used in conjunction with one of the four-letter, second words. Further, the four letter versions of the words do not have the same pronunciation as the three letter version.

I would think you would be okay with a name change to one of the four-letter versions of the second word in the phrase.

spartaxoxo

Relequen is actually the name of a character. He is a captain of the Welkynars. FYI.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relequen

The Relequen armor is actually named after this character. He wrote a lore book, and is a leader of the Welkynars. Z'maja uses shadow magic to make a clone of him.

You can actually save his life if you don't kill him before facing down Z'maja

. Anyway, this is the book.

The Welkynars of Eton Nir
by Sir Relequen, Wing Captain of the Welkynars

Obviously, I can't speak to your friend's individual name or the action taken against them. I just thought you'd find this informative.

kieso

Just stop picking weird names 🤷‍♂️

Syldras

kieso wrote: »

Just stop picking weird names 🤷‍♂️

How are lore-accurate names weird?

Stefirex

kieso wrote: »

Just stop picking weird names 🤷‍♂️

But I like weird names!

TaSheen

Stefirex wrote: »

Syldras wrote: »

Just stop picking weird names 🤷‍♂️

But I like weird names!

Quoted the wrong person. Kieso was the one who posted "Just stop picking weird names", not Syldras.

Grega

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Hi all, wanted to chime in here. We're not going to address the specific case cited as that is dealing with someone else's interactions w/ customer service.

However, as we have alluded to before in earlier conversations about this, it is difficult to give completely clear guidelines, as it is circumstance dependent.

TiaFrye wrote: »

As I see it:
- full name used for NPC in game, the ones that you see while in dialogue, as well as other property of ZOS, is against TOS - Abnur Tharn, Queen Ayrenn, Count Verandis Ravenwatch (that one won't even fit, it's too long);
- user|character name using a family name are not against TOS - Gina Tharn, Lara Rawenwatch;
- user|character name using similar names but different spelling are not against TOS - Razum-Dar > Rasum-Tar

This is correct for the most part. With the added caveat for the last point. The similar names need to be distinctly different enough, both written and phonetically. Again, circling back to the previous point about circumstance dependent. The example given "Razum-Dar > Rasum-Tar" is different enough written. However, it could pose a potential problem phonetically. If it was "Razum-Dar > Ralum-Tar", you may fair a better chance. The point here is, try to make the name look and sound different enough.

TiaFrye wrote: »

Next part is a question: is using the other part of NPC name (not family name)/recognizable part of property name against TOS? According to my friend's situation it is.
Is any people who named their characters something like (using single-named characters for maximum similarity) "Probably Not Fennorian" or "Caska of Beer" are in danger?

We are seeking clarification on this now, so the hope is to follow up tomorrow with official guidance. However, our general advice while we are waiting for customer service to get back to us is to avoid using the proper names if you can, even if the name is noting that they are not said person.

Also, if anyone does not agree with the action taken, please make sure you appeal the action. Customer Service ultimately makes the final call in these matters. It may be helpful to work with them on an approved name as well, to make sure you're in the clear and avoid a name change again.

TiaFrye wrote: »

We're just fans loving your creation and showing that in a specific way.

Lastly to address the point above, we do recognize that this process can be very frustrating, as many of you are just trying to have fun and bring your roleplay characters to life. For them to have a place in the world you're playing in. Sometimes real world legal protection comes into play and we understand it isn't ideal, but is a necessary part of making sure everyone is protected here.

Hopefully this was somewhat helpful. We will have more instances like this, but we will take these to customer service each time to chat about how we can make the process better so that there are better ways to allow everyone to be able to roleplay.

What about gamer tags? I’ve seen several people who’s XBOX gamer tag is exactly identical to character name NPC and even trial/dungeon boss name. Identical to a T

TiaFrye

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Relequen is actually the name of a character. He is a captain of the Welkynars. FYI.

https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Relequen

The Relequen armor is actually named after this character. He wrote a lore book, and is a leader of the Welkynars. Z'maja uses shadow magic to make a clone of him.

You can actually save his life if you don't kill him before facing down Z'maja

. Anyway, this is the book.

The Welkynars of Eton Nir
by Sir Relequen, Wing Captain of the Welkynars

Obviously, I can't speak to your friend's individual name or the action taken against them. I just thought you'd find this informative.

Well aware of that. Point is the general thought of the population was that replicating NPC name as is - is violation. I know a lot of people who have characters using NPCs names but not in form that is used in game on these NPCs - different spelling, adding words. That was the question and now they're investigating.

spartaxoxo

TiaFrye wrote: »

Well aware of that. Point is the general thought of the population was that replicating NPC name as is - is violation. I know a lot of people who have characters using NPCs names but not in form that is used in game on these NPCs - different spelling, adding words. That was the question and now they're investigating.

Sure, and it's a good question. But, for me it feels like the example cited is re-arranging an existing name than adding something new.

Like

Virian Naryu

Instead of

Naryu Virian

Rather the question is more like adding something new e.g your example of

Totally not Fennorian.

So, it brings to mind rather simply rearranging is good enough. I would imagine not.