CC Is Out Of Control

OBJnoob

P.S. As a warden myself that uses immobilizes sometimes (I use gripping shards not wall of frost,) when I see someone roll for no particular reason guess what I do? I start focusing my cc efforts on them. Because their actions tell me that they either aren't very durable or they are low on resources. In a perfect scenario they roll for no super necessary reason... Then I hard cc them, and THEN I immobilize them.

So it may also be that you're attracting unwanted attention to yourself. Sorry if this is off topic... I'm honestly trying to think of ways to help.

Jabbs_Giggity

OBJnoob wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

OBJnoob wrote: »

For every person that feels bogged down in endless cc there's another person running circles around rocks and towers seemingly impervious to all cc attempts for incredible amounts of time.

While lag and other related performance issues are contributors to this discrepancy of experience I also feel like skill level is important. You simply have to be able to deal with cc to pvp. It isn't that hard.

I often see DKs kiting as if they're stam sorcs with what seems major and minor expedition plus three swift that NEVER get CC'd, snared or rooted. Never see them cast RAT or elude and not running 2h for FM. Often I can barely keep up on my stamsorc. Please explain how one can have such speed to kite and 100% uptime on CC, root and snare immunity... what mechanics provide this?

Hey man, I can't answer that question. I'm not one of 'those' players myself I choose not to use immovable potions because I'm a button masher with poor sustain that crutches on tripots. And I don't slot slippery CP or anything similar because the button masher in me prefers to do it myself. And I don't use snow treaders because I don't have them. What I do do though is cast bird of prey a lot, break free quickly, and have enough stam on my mag toon to roll dodge a bit.

So there's a decently long list of what they might be doing... I'm just here to say that even without that I'm just fine.

Maybe one of those stamsorc DKs will come tell you their secret. But honestly the way you phrased the question it sounds to me like you'd sooner accept that they're cheating than hear how they're doing it.

ALL of the ways to combat ccs have been discussed here. Oh, there's also escapist poisons. Use the tools at your disposal.

I suspect, notwithstanding the obvious lag and performance issues, that the people here complaining just need practice. Either they're failing to slot RaT or they don't have enough stam/sustain or... Or maybe they're a little too squishy. Meaning when I get rooted and I have low health I can hypothetically eat a hit or two so there's no need to panic roll. I have a choice between rolling, unsnaring myself, or block casting heals. Perhaps some people don't feel as durable, can't withstand 2 seconds of focus fire, and thus feel they have no choice/strategy.

No, I don't assume cheating. Genuinely interested because I run a stamsorc with major/ minor expedition, celerity and 2x swift. Still can't catch up even when sprinting.
Toss a caltrops ahead of them and they don't slow down, set off balance and heavy they don't stun. No CC immunity circles either. I'm quite flabbergasted.

Dr_Con

@Jabbs_Giggity plan around the free weeks where the DLC is free.

Till then you're stuck in old metas.

ketsparrowhawk

GetAgrippa wrote: »

All I know is I've adapted easily to this meta. I have RaT or an equivalent on every toon
and I have ample Stam to roll dodge. It's barely phased me.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

6 months ago the solutions were sufficient. Things have changed since then and the flow and feel of combat is less enjoyable than before.

Weird, I'm just as capable of roll dodging now as I was six months ago.

Me too. I just have to do it a lot more often. I've adapted too. I just don't enjoy it as much.

axi

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

GetAgrippa wrote: »

All I know is I've adapted easily to this meta. I have RaT or an equivalent on every toon
and I have ample Stam to roll dodge. It's barely phased me.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

6 months ago the solutions were sufficient. Things have changed since then and the flow and feel of combat is less enjoyable than before.

Weird, I'm just as capable of roll dodging now as I was six months ago.

Me too. I just have to do it a lot more often. I've adapted too. I just don't enjoy it as much.

Excatly this. it's not that people don't know the counters to said immobilizes and snares or don't know how to use said counters. It's just that spamming snare/immobilize removal and dodge every 3-4 seconds as a response to passively applied effects is just boring, annoying and makes fights feel slugish. It also massively lowers offensive potential of most of the meele or semi meele, setups further empowering current tank meta. Swaping back and forth between bars every 3-4 seconds is extremly disruptive when it's passively forced by the enemy.

ketsparrowhawk

axi wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

GetAgrippa wrote: »

All I know is I've adapted easily to this meta. I have RaT or an equivalent on every toon
and I have ample Stam to roll dodge. It's barely phased me.

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

6 months ago the solutions were sufficient. Things have changed since then and the flow and feel of combat is less enjoyable than before.

Weird, I'm just as capable of roll dodging now as I was six months ago.

Me too. I just have to do it a lot more often. I've adapted too. I just don't enjoy it as much.

Excatly this. it's not that people don't know the counters to said immobilizes and snares or don't know how to use said counters. It's just that spamming snare/immobilize removal and dodge every 3-4 seconds as a response to passively applied effects is just boring and annoying and makes fights feel slugish. It also massively lowers offensive potential of most of the meele setup further empowering current tank meta.

Exactly. It's a simple concept: Before U35 = more enjoyment. After U35 = less enjoyment. More enjoyment = good. Less enjoyment = bad. I would like more enjoyment rather than less enjoyment.

robpr

Good, lets discuss this more, maybe we will also go back and discuss the sacrificed slot or pot because one class have one skill morph.

/s

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have removed some insulting back and forth that was disruptive. Please ensure you are treating others with respect on the forums even when they have views that differ from your own. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

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GetAgrippa

axi wrote: »

as a response to passively applied effects is just boring, annoying and makes fights feel slugish.

Why is the word "passively" being bandied about like it's some kind of gotcha word? The skill has to be cast, doesn't it? It's not like people using wall of elements are just immobilizing people by existing. They have to cast the skill and you have to walk into the wall, or they have to place the wall where you are, and you have to be chilled. Is the Necro fear broken because it's "passively" applied after they cast it? How many Necros would have to be casting this skill before it's broken?

GetAgrippa

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Exactly. It's a simple concept: Before U35 = more enjoyment. After U35 = less enjoyment. More enjoyment = good. Less enjoyment = bad. I would like more enjoyment rather than less enjoyment.

I agree, my enjoyment of the game suffered after Update 35 too, but I'm unsure what that has to do with this conversation since Update 36 had the warden frost staff changes.

Anyhow, I have one of every class and I'm enjoying this patch just fine. So you may be having less enjoyment. I'm having a blast on my warden. But I'm also having fun on my dk, who has to be right in there in all that "passively" applied stuff.

YandereGirlfriend

GetAgrippa wrote: »

axi wrote: »

as a response to passively applied effects is just boring, annoying and makes fights feel slugish.

Why is the word "passively" being bandied about like it's some kind of gotcha word? The skill has to be cast, doesn't it? It's not like people using wall of elements are just immobilizing people by existing. They have to cast the skill and you have to walk into the wall, or they have to place the wall where you are, and you have to be chilled. Is the Necro fear broken because it's "passively" applied after they cast it? How many Necros would have to be casting this skill before it's broken?

I mean, that's technically true. But there really isn't much skill or finesse involved in the double CC combo of Blockade -> Arctic Blast with a Charged Frost Staff.

Arctic with a Charged staff will give you a ~100% chance to Chill and Stun and then that automatically procs the Immob since they're already in your wall.

The comparison to Necro Totem is very flawed since that is a trifling 6-meter radius ability that is highly telegraphed and easy to avoid whereas Blockade has a MASSIVE 18 x 12 area that is impossible to miss with. And, of course, the Stun from Totem is delayed by 2-seconds rather than automatic (which is the fatal flaw of that skill, IMO; well, that and the truly awful synergy option).

In any case, the auto-Immob from Blockade probably could be struck and life would go on as before for everyone.

GetAgrippa

Oh I have no doubt it will inevitably be removed. That's what happens. People in pvp get upset they have to adjust to something, in this case a mechanic that isn't even new, and Zos nerfs it. That will happen I'm sure of. It's just disappointing that this clamor happens at all.

I hope there can at least be a compromise made. "Immobilizes chilled enemies on cast." I mean doesn't that at least take care of your "passively" applied issue that is so upsetting.

ketsparrowhawk

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Oh I have no doubt it will inevitably be removed. That's what happens. People in pvp get upset they have to adjust to something, in this case a mechanic that isn't even new, and Zos nerfs it. That will happen I'm sure of. It's just disappointing that this clamor happens at all.

I hope there can at least be a compromise made. "Immobilizes chilled enemies on cast." I mean doesn't that at least take care of your "passively" applied issue that is so upsetting.

Of course pvp players will be the ones to give feedback after meta shifts. They're the ones who are impacted the most. How much would PVE really be affected by removing the root from wall of frost? It's a handy cc tool but I bet you'll still clear the content just fine and you can use any one of the other cc tools available. I strongly doubt your overall enjoyment will be seriously impacted. Meanwhile the constant roots define every moment of battlegrounds. YES even after adapting to it. You're not in the same BG matches my guild mates and I are in. I have a hard time believing you'd be defending the frost spam if you were.

Adapting to new metas is fun but THIS meta is super not fun. We've had several months now to come to that conclusion. I'm in a large BG-focused guild and it is almost exclusively what everyone talks about in discord and guild chat these days. Among the people who haven't quit, that is.

Regarding your suggestion to wall of frost, yes that would 100% be a great solution/compromise.

GetAgrippa

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

You're not in the same BG matches my guild mates and I are in. I have a hard time believing you'd be defending the frost spam if you were.

I have multiple 5 star toons that got there exclusively through BGs. I play in groups and solo. Just in the past 2 days I've done BGs where I did over 8 million damage fighting premades. I have the screen shots to prove it. Just because I'm fine with wall of ice doesn't mean I'm a BG noob.

Now, am I defending wall of ice because I use it? Well yes, I do use it on my warden. And it's a lot of fun. Now THAT you can accuse me of.

ketsparrowhawk

Fair enough. Just an odd battle to fight so fervently.

GetAgrippa

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just an odd battle to fight so fervently.

Frost Warden hasn't been viable in a long time. Not since they nerfed Wall of Ice initially by removing the snare. So now that frost warden is viable again people are immediately pushing to nerf it. I absolutely will attempt to be the dissenting voice.

OBJnoob

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

No, I don't assume cheating. Genuinely interested because I run a stamsorc with major/ minor expedition, celerity and 2x swift. Still can't catch up even when sprinting.
Toss a caltrops ahead of them and they don't slow down, set off balance and heavy they don't stun. No CC immunity circles either. I'm quite flabbergasted.

That is weird. I'm not a big numbers guy so I gotta ask... Do you know how close to the speed cap you are? I'm not sure how they might be acquiring minor expedition to match yours, there aren't many sources of that. But they could be using 3 swift instead of 2. They could be an orc. Or they could be using more medium/light than you.

As far as them not getting stunned... Yeah I don't know. Is it possible they had a circle around their feet and you just didn't notice? I consider myself a pretty good player and I try to stun people that can't be stunned... Frequently. I also think it's likely that sometimes the circle doesn't show up. We all know how the game is. Also possible (are you on PC?) The person had some kinda add-on and they blocked your heavy attack without even looking. Or purged the off balance status. The caltrops thing isn't as weird to me... RaT uses magic and sprint uses stamina... Stamina runs out first... Casting RaT every 4 seconds while running away is, uh, standard.

One last thing and then I'm out of ideas. Medicinal use in the alchemy skill tree increases the length of your potion effects by, I dunno, 30% I think. When you craft potions the less effects it has then the longer duration the effects have. There are also enchants for jewelry that reduce the cool down for using potions. It is possible the person was doing something like that, with immovable only potions, for incredible uptime on immunity.

BUT. All that being said, I pretty much agree with everything GetAgrippa has said. So I can only be so helpful. Trust me I've had similar experiences. In the end if they wanna run you just gotta let'm run sometimes. And this conversation stands in stark contrast to anybody complaining about constant Ccs.

OBJnoob

P.S. and let's not forget about ring of the wild hunt.

Jabbs_Giggity

OBJnoob wrote: »

Jabbs_Giggity wrote: »

No, I don't assume cheating. Genuinely interested because I run a stamsorc with major/ minor expedition, celerity and 2x swift. Still can't catch up even when sprinting.
Toss a caltrops ahead of them and they don't slow down, set off balance and heavy they don't stun. No CC immunity circles either. I'm quite flabbergasted.

That is weird. I'm not a big numbers guy so I gotta ask... Do you know how close to the speed cap you are? I'm not sure how they might be acquiring minor expedition to match yours, there aren't many sources of that. But they could be using 3 swift instead of 2. They could be an orc. Or they could be using more medium/light than you.

As far as them not getting stunned... Yeah I don't know. Is it possible they had a circle around their feet and you just didn't notice? I consider myself a pretty good player and I try to stun people that can't be stunned... Frequently. I also think it's likely that sometimes the circle doesn't show up. We all know how the game is. Also possible (are you on PC?) The person had some kinda add-on and they blocked your heavy attack without even looking. Or purged the off balance status. The caltrops thing isn't as weird to me... RaT uses magic and sprint uses stamina... Stamina runs out first... Casting RaT every 4 seconds while running away is, uh, standard.

One last thing and then I'm out of ideas. Medicinal use in the alchemy skill tree increases the length of your potion effects by, I dunno, 30% I think. When you craft potions the less effects it has then the longer duration the effects have. There are also enchants for jewelry that reduce the cool down for using potions. It is possible the person was doing something like that, with immovable only potions, for incredible uptime on immunity.

BUT. All that being said, I pretty much agree with everything GetAgrippa has said. So I can only be so helpful. Trust me I've had similar experiences. In the end if they wanna run you just gotta let'm run sometimes. And this conversation stands in stark contrast to anybody complaining about constant Ccs.

So it's usually against DKs that kite 24/7 until they build ult. I can only assume they are using a mythic or combination of mythics and immovable pots. Only thing is, using caltrops isn't affected by CC immunity, its 50% snare.
I am on a woodelf stamsorc in 5med/2heavy, 2x swift and get major/minor expedition from quick cloak and hurricane. So, we're looking at 5% race passive, 12% jewelry, 12% CP celerity, 15% to sprint speed and 10% while immov pot active or under CC immunity from medium skill line, major/minor expedition. All together that's 184%-185% with base 100. Adding in occasional streaks to close the gap still isn't enough sometimes.
I am on xbox.
Based on visual cues (not accounting for lag) they do not use breakfree, CP passive or manually, do not get slowed from snares, do not appear to visually cast RAT or other speed buffs or roll.
Yet, they are extremely tanky (assuming serpents because opening attacks do visually zero damage initially, but this would cause a 40% snare), no damage shield buff active on healthbar. After kiting for 10-15 seconds without slowing down they can 2 combo 75% of healthbar, then kite again.
Some of the damage I take IS due to block bug, so nothing I can do there but hope I have enough health.

Just seems to me like this patch is very unbalanced and unpleasant to play in these situations. I just came back from a long break (well before mythics were introduced) so not sure how patches in-between have been.

All I know is that my main has been shelved, seemingly permanently, and I'm being forced to play other tools.

My stamplar has 75% of my completed content and hundreds of hours played and is now useless.
I play stamsorc and magblade now. Both enjoyable, but not at all how I want to play the game when I log in to PVP.

Jabbs_Giggity

GetAgrippa wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Just an odd battle to fight so fervently.

Frost Warden hasn't been viable in a long time. Not since they nerfed Wall of Ice initially by removing the snare. So now that frost warden is viable again people are immediately pushing to nerf it. I absolutely will attempt to be the dissenting voice.

They definitely do not need to be nerfed. Ice wardens, as you said haven't been viable in a long time and they add very good balance to PVP Content, especially AvA.

The thing I have issues with is double CC break. With high lag, this makes it unplayable. Immobilization and hard CCs need to be reviewed.
As they apply at the same time, you cannot tell if you need to roll or breakfree and neither follow immunity coding unless server is working 100% flawlessly with zero lag.
Soft CC immunity logically doesn't apply between snares/roots as many players experience both one after another.
When I notice CC immunities acting weird I do clip them to review and now have a vast collection of clips showing both hard and soft CC immunities often do not apply. Lag strengthens this 10x over, but is often noticeable to identify.

OBJnoob

I mean... If caltrops can't be purged because it's a ground effect that makes sense. But still using RaT you can run right through it.

Either way you bring up fair points and answers to my questions. I gave you some insightfuls.

Xbox NA? I remember seeing somebody with a name similar to yours. Not important just curious.

Jabbs_Giggity

OBJnoob wrote: »

I mean... If caltrops can't be purged because it's a ground effect that makes sense. But still using RaT you can run right through it.

Either way you bring up fair points and answers to my questions. I gave you some insightfuls.

Xbox NA? I remember seeing somebody with a name similar to yours. Not important just curious.

Probably was me back in the day. Yes xbox NA. GT has changed a few times, but that is my templars character name. Lol

Jabbs_Giggity

Honestly, it's probably just lag and poor server performance. Just still seems odd to me. There is really only like 2-3 regular people I run into with this issie, all on DKs.

Miracle19

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Oh I have no doubt it will inevitably be removed. That's what happens. People in pvp get upset they have to adjust to something, in this case a mechanic that isn't even new, and Zos nerfs it. That will happen I'm sure of. It's just disappointing that this clamor happens at all.

I hope there can at least be a compromise made. "Immobilizes chilled enemies on cast." I mean doesn't that at least take care of your "passively" applied issue that is so upsetting.

Of course pvp players will be the ones to give feedback after meta shifts. They're the ones who are impacted the most. How much would PVE really be affected by removing the root from wall of frost? It's a handy cc tool but I bet you'll still clear the content just fine and you can use any one of the other cc tools available. I strongly doubt your overall enjoyment will be seriously impacted. Meanwhile the constant roots define every moment of battlegrounds. YES even after adapting to it. You're not in the same BG matches my guild mates and I are in. I have a hard time believing you'd be defending the frost spam if you were.

Adapting to new metas is fun but THIS meta is super not fun. We've had several months now to come to that conclusion. I'm in a large BG-focused guild and it is almost exclusively what everyone talks about in discord and guild chat these days. Among the people who haven't quit, that is.

Regarding your suggestion to wall of frost, yes that would 100% be a great solution/compromise.

While I agree that fighting against root spamming is not the most fun, it is apart of the “balance” in pvp and is supposed to counter melee, otherwise you have no counter. I think it’s fine as is, this is nothing worse then the bombard spammers in the past

Silversmith

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Hello,

Crowd control is way too oppressive in Battlegrounds these days. A mele build can't even approach a fight without first wading through 6 Walls of Frost. Removing the immobilization from Wall of Frost would go a very long way to alleviate this frustrating feature of the current META.

Thanks!

Ket

Protip: When snow is on the ground. Put on Snow Treaders.

ketsparrowhawk

Miracle19 wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Oh I have no doubt it will inevitably be removed. That's what happens. People in pvp get upset they have to adjust to something, in this case a mechanic that isn't even new, and Zos nerfs it. That will happen I'm sure of. It's just disappointing that this clamor happens at all.

I hope there can at least be a compromise made. "Immobilizes chilled enemies on cast." I mean doesn't that at least take care of your "passively" applied issue that is so upsetting.

Of course pvp players will be the ones to give feedback after meta shifts. They're the ones who are impacted the most. How much would PVE really be affected by removing the root from wall of frost? It's a handy cc tool but I bet you'll still clear the content just fine and you can use any one of the other cc tools available. I strongly doubt your overall enjoyment will be seriously impacted. Meanwhile the constant roots define every moment of battlegrounds. YES even after adapting to it. You're not in the same BG matches my guild mates and I are in. I have a hard time believing you'd be defending the frost spam if you were.

Adapting to new metas is fun but THIS meta is super not fun. We've had several months now to come to that conclusion. I'm in a large BG-focused guild and it is almost exclusively what everyone talks about in discord and guild chat these days. Among the people who haven't quit, that is.

Regarding your suggestion to wall of frost, yes that would 100% be a great solution/compromise.

While I agree that fighting against root spamming is not the most fun, it is apart of the “balance” in pvp and is supposed to counter melee, otherwise you have no counter. I think it’s fine as is, this is nothing worse then the bombard spammers in the past

Hi Miracle! If wall of frost were more like bombard -- i.e. root upon cast only -- I wouldn't have an issue. It's the passive nature of the root that is frustrating, and the fact that every inch of ground is covered in it in BGs. Roots in general I have no problem with, but I think they should have to be "mindfully" applied.

ketsparrowhawk

Silversmith wrote: »

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Hello,

Crowd control is way too oppressive in Battlegrounds these days. A mele build can't even approach a fight without first wading through 6 Walls of Frost. Removing the immobilization from Wall of Frost would go a very long way to alleviate this frustrating feature of the current META.

Thanks!

Ket

Protip: When snow is on the ground. Put on Snow Treaders.

Too much of a sacrifice for me. I manage to perform well despite the frost spam. My point is that it is less fun than it was before frost spam became so popular. Treaders removing my ability to sprint plus also removing a bunch of damage from the build (since I'm using Treaders rather than a different mythic), would make it even less fun.

GetAgrippa

Less fun for you. Many of us are enjoying the return of the Frost Magden playstyle that, as I said before, hasn't been viable for years. And as I said before, I can get on my melee characters and play just fine, because I can roll dodge.

If wall of ice is nerfed, and then in the future Frost Magden is nerfed again, then wall of ice will be dead in pvp. And there were builds that utilized wall of ice before the current frost warden changes were implemented. And I hope there are builds that are able to utilize wall of ice after the current Frost Magdens are inevitably nerfed again. You might say "well then zos can buff wall of ice again," to which I would say I have no faith Zos would revisit the skill in a timely manner.

ketsparrowhawk

GetAgrippa wrote: »

Less fun for you. Many of us are enjoying the return of the Frost Magden playstyle that, as I said before, hasn't been viable for years. And as I said before, I can get on my melee characters and play just fine, because I can roll dodge.

Indeed that has all been established. Wall of frost isn't a warden ability btw and they're not the only ones who use it.

GetAgrippa

ketsparrowhawk wrote: »

Wall of frost isn't a warden ability btw.

So it's just a coincidence that your issue coincides with the buff to frost wardens?