Please give us the option to turn off permanent companion keepsakes after we get them to max level.

Treselegant

spartaxoxo wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

My point was - lots of players are annoyed by many things. What makes this one complaint in particular so very important as to require a toggle.

And every player has a right to voice their dissatisfaction with any aspect of the game and ask for changes. Why are you so against getting small QoL options?
You are not concerned by some particular thing? Well, then be on your merry way and let others discuss it in peace.

What's amazing to me is that many other nuisances ARE togglable or otherwise remedied. Don't like Mirri's voice? A constant example here, you can set her to talk very minimally OR use a different companion who can do the same exact job she can. An annoyance we used to have, the ease of stealing placed objects, was remedied by a toggle.

The majority of annoyances in this game, there are workarounds or toggles to deal with them. There is remedy. A reason this stands out so much is that there is none.

It's like hip flaps, search by unknown in traders, and stackable surveys. All of these things should get some QOL care. And players have legitimate problems with all of them. There's really no reason that the keepsakes should cause permanent and irreversible "problems" to an account, with the way it irritatingly clogs people's inventories. It may be a minor nuisance, but it shouldn't take changing up the entire way people manage their inventories to deal with what's supposed to be a bonus boon.

*sigh* Look, I shouldn't have to explain this over and over, to you or anyone else. The only reason this was brought up was as an example of an easily remedied annoyance. Mirri can be turned down just as trash pots can easily sold - that's the blazing point. I don't like the word, because its over-used, but this right here, pretending I genuinely have a problem with Mirri instead of addressing my point, this is strawmanning.

[snip]

[Edited for Baiting]

spartaxoxo

Treselegant wrote: »

*sigh* Look, I shouldn't have to explain this over and over, to you or anyone else. The only reason this was brought up was as an example of an easily remedied annoyance. Mirri can be turned down just as trash pots can easily sold - that's the blazing point. I don't like the word, because its over-used, but this right here, pretending I genuinely have a problem with Mirri instead of addressing my point, this is strawmanning.

Pointing out the flaws in a comparison is not a strawman.

Problem: I don't want to listen to Mirri
Solution 1: Use a toggle to listen to her less often.
Solution 2: Use a companion that can function in an identical role and never listen to her again

Problem: I don't want this companion's stuff to accumulate in my inventory that I have to sell.
Solution 1: Change the way you play to avoid loot and put the loot you do grab at risk of being snagged up from underneath you.
Solution 2: Create a brand new account and years of progress

One of these things is not like the other.

Selling items is not a solution for not wanting to sell items. And it does not stop them from permanently and constantly accumulating in your inventory.

There is NO valid solution to keepsakes. You can't even roll a new character because keepsakes are account wide.

Treselegant

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

*sigh* Look, I shouldn't have to explain this over and over, to you or anyone else. The only reason this was brought up was as an example of an easily remedied annoyance. Mirri can be turned down just as trash pots can easily sold - that's the blazing point. I don't like the word, because its over-used, but this right here, pretending I genuinely have a problem with Mirri instead of addressing my point, this is strawmanning.

Pointing out the flaws in a comparison is not a strawman.

Problem: I don't want to listen to Mirri
Solution 1: Use a toggle to listen to her less often.
Solution 2: Use a companion that can function in an identical role and never listen to her again

Problem: I don't want stuff to accumulate in my inventory that I have to sell.
Solution 1: Change the way you play to avoid loot and put the loot you do grab at risk of being snagged up from underneath you.
Solution 2: Create a brand new account and years of progress

One of these things is not like the other.

Selling items is not a solution for not wanting to sell items. And it does not stop them from permanently and constantly accumulating in your inventory.

The reason I chose Mirri as an example is because you can easily turn her down just as you can easily sell the handful of trash items that accumulate in your inventory. Some players may find Mirri's voice so annoying as to desperately want a toggle to turn her off completely but that's obviously not needed due to there already being a mechanic available to turn her down or change her. They may find the issue very irritating, upsetting and annoying but that doesn't mean the already available options are insufficient. I used a very similar example earlier on the thread where I did not even refer to the companions, it was just convenient due to Mirri being mentioned by the OP.

Does your 'problem' also apply to all trash loot? Should all trash loot you accumulate in game and I mean, most of it is trash, even at lower levels, be turned off by toggle as to not clutter your inventory? All loot perhaps? No green armour, weapons or runes? I have to sell those quite regularly as an ESO player.

If you are so bad at sorting your inventory as a player that you cannot cope with even a minor amounts of trash loot, then MMOs and even rpgs in general are going to cause you some difficulty.

spartaxoxo

Constantly sell items to stop selling items is not a solution.

Treselegant

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Constantly sell items to stop selling items is not a solution.

It is the player's prerogative whether they sell or do not sell the items they get during gameplay. It is, however, a common solution to having trash items in the player inventory. Even without the companion perk items, there is always the problem of trash items cluttering the player inventory. If the player does not use the already in place, very common to rpg games, method of selling loot (as part of the gameplay loop) then that is the player's choice - but then its not the games fault if their inventory is then cluttered.

[snip]
[edited for baiting]

rootkitronin

The amount of mental gymnastics going on to try and justify a poorly designed game mechanic is amazing - it's not player responsibility, it's an oversight in the design of the mechanic (sounds good on paper, not so much in practice), it's also one that should be very very easy to fix with minimal effort.

It's an annoying, and most likely unintended/overlooked, aspect of a game mechanic (it is certainly not an objectively good execution of it) - it may not be game-breaking, but it can be fixed and should be.

Ain't nothing more to it.

*edited for non-constructive comments - do better root*

rootkitronin

Well, before Mirri entered the picture and caused her usual chaos, you had stated a couple times that you thought the "companion perk items could be better done but I'd rather they be improved along with the rest of companion system".

What kinds of changes or improvements would you like to see to the companion system overall?

Treselegant

rootkitronin wrote: »

Well, before Mirri entered the picture and caused her usual chaos, you had stated a couple times that you thought the "companion perk items could be better done but I'd rather they be improved along with the rest of companion system".

What kinds of changes or improvements would you like to see to the companion system overall?

Ok - better perks for one. Something I have agreed with from the start. Less need to have a toggle because people are having to trash useless items if they aren't so useless to start with.

More dialogue for companions in general as well as more environmental and story interaction as part of this. More quests for the Blackwood pair as they currently have less than the High Isle ones. I'd even support removing the -1 rapport loss for cheese and bugs for Mirri and Bastian because it isn't that relevant and if there was more varied dialogue you would have less need this sort of 'flavour' rapport commentry anyway, as proven by the High Isle companions.

Better combat ai would probably be appeciated by a lot of people too. I don't have too much trouble when using a tank companion but ranged ones frequently stand in red, catch aggro by mistake or roll dodge right out of the boss arena.

There's just a lot that could be done, other people have mentioned things in the thread that would be useful as well. I just think there needs to be more content/tuning done for them.

rootkitronin

Treselegant wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Well, before Mirri entered the picture and caused her usual chaos, you had stated a couple times that you thought the "companion perk items could be better done but I'd rather they be improved along with the rest of companion system".

What kinds of changes or improvements would you like to see to the companion system overall?

Ok - better perks for one. Something I have agreed with from the start. Less need to have a toggle because people are having to trash useless items if they aren't so useless to start with.

More dialogue for companions in general as well as more environmental and story interaction as part of this. More quests for the Blackwood pair as they currently have less than the High Isle ones. I'd even support removing the -1 rapport loss for cheese and bugs for Mirri and Bastian because it isn't that relevant and if there was more varied dialogue you would have less need this sort of 'flavour' rapport commentry anyway, as proven by the High Isle companions.

Better combat ai would probably be appeciated by a lot of people too. I don't have too much trouble when using a tank companion but ranged ones frequently stand in red, catch aggro by mistake or roll dodge right out of the boss arena.

There's just a lot that could be done, other people have mentioned things in the thread that would be useful as well. I just think there needs to be more content/tuning done for them.

I agree with all of those ideas, the bugs thing alone would be fantastic, but as someone who really only uses companions because they fit the rp of my characters, I would absolutely love to see more dialogue.

Combat could be improved for sure, as could the overall perks and interactions in general... though I don't have any specific ideas for the perks, but the current ones don't really inspire.

Not bad ideas at all, good critiques that I think most would agree on. It would be a much bigger undertaking than a simple perk toggle though - definitely an worthwhile undertaking though, but if they could toss out a toggle in the meantime, I don't think that could hurt either.

That being said, I wouldn't want a toggle at the expense of progress towards a more significant overhaul. But I think with a company as big as ZOS, it's okay to ask for both, no?

Treselegant

rootkitronin wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Well, before Mirri entered the picture and caused her usual chaos, you had stated a couple times that you thought the "companion perk items could be better done but I'd rather they be improved along with the rest of companion system".

What kinds of changes or improvements would you like to see to the companion system overall?

Ok - better perks for one. Something I have agreed with from the start. Less need to have a toggle because people are having to trash useless items if they aren't so useless to start with.

More dialogue for companions in general as well as more environmental and story interaction as part of this. More quests for the Blackwood pair as they currently have less than the High Isle ones. I'd even support removing the -1 rapport loss for cheese and bugs for Mirri and Bastian because it isn't that relevant and if there was more varied dialogue you would have less need this sort of 'flavour' rapport commentry anyway, as proven by the High Isle companions.

Better combat ai would probably be appeciated by a lot of people too. I don't have too much trouble when using a tank companion but ranged ones frequently stand in red, catch aggro by mistake or roll dodge right out of the boss arena.

There's just a lot that could be done, other people have mentioned things in the thread that would be useful as well. I just think there needs to be more content/tuning done for them.

I agree with all of those ideas, the bugs thing alone would be fantastic, but as someone who really only uses companions because they fit the rp of my characters, I would absolutely love to see more dialogue.

Combat could be improved for sure, as could the overall perks and interactions in general... though I don't have any specific ideas for the perks, but the current ones don't really inspire.

Not bad ideas at all, good critiques that I think most would agree on. It would be a much bigger undertaking than a simple perk toggle though - definitely an worthwhile undertaking though, but if they could toss out a toggle in the meantime, I don't think that could hurt either.

That being said, I wouldn't want a toggle at the expense of progress towards a more significant overhaul. But I think with a company as big as ZOS, it's okay to ask for both, no?

Which of the two options are we most likely to end up with considering the current state the game? The toggle or the much more complicated update for companions? In all likelihood, we'd get the toggle and everything else would fall by the wayside. Then, considering the condition of another recent much wanted toggle (supposed to hide sorc pets and the like), it would probably work incorrectly or introduce further bugs.

spartaxoxo

Toggles in this game have generally had absolutely no bearing on the balance or content added to a system. They did not stop improving companions just because they added an option to set dialogue to minimum, for example.

Treselegant

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Toggles in this game have generally had absolutely no bearing on the balance or content added to a system. They did not stop improving companions just because they added an option to set dialogue to minimum, for example.

Human nature being what it is - what's more likely to happen a toggle or the larger job needed to update companions? The older companions have been barely touched since their release with only things added at the High Isle chapter release being very minor. So forgive me if I have very low trust in Zos right now.

spartaxoxo

They literally just gave us both a new toggle option and new content for companions at the same time. When it comes to the history of the companions, there exists zero instances of only giving us a toggle without any plans to update companions. It's not a thing.

rootkitronin

Treselegant wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Well, before Mirri entered the picture and caused her usual chaos, you had stated a couple times that you thought the "companion perk items could be better done but I'd rather they be improved along with the rest of companion system".

What kinds of changes or improvements would you like to see to the companion system overall?

Ok - better perks for one. Something I have agreed with from the start. Less need to have a toggle because people are having to trash useless items if they aren't so useless to start with.

More dialogue for companions in general as well as more environmental and story interaction as part of this. More quests for the Blackwood pair as they currently have less than the High Isle ones. I'd even support removing the -1 rapport loss for cheese and bugs for Mirri and Bastian because it isn't that relevant and if there was more varied dialogue you would have less need this sort of 'flavour' rapport commentry anyway, as proven by the High Isle companions.

Better combat ai would probably be appeciated by a lot of people too. I don't have too much trouble when using a tank companion but ranged ones frequently stand in red, catch aggro by mistake or roll dodge right out of the boss arena.

There's just a lot that could be done, other people have mentioned things in the thread that would be useful as well. I just think there needs to be more content/tuning done for them.

I agree with all of those ideas, the bugs thing alone would be fantastic, but as someone who really only uses companions because they fit the rp of my characters, I would absolutely love to see more dialogue.

Combat could be improved for sure, as could the overall perks and interactions in general... though I don't have any specific ideas for the perks, but the current ones don't really inspire.

Not bad ideas at all, good critiques that I think most would agree on. It would be a much bigger undertaking than a simple perk toggle though - definitely an worthwhile undertaking though, but if they could toss out a toggle in the meantime, I don't think that could hurt either.

That being said, I wouldn't want a toggle at the expense of progress towards a more significant overhaul. But I think with a company as big as ZOS, it's okay to ask for both, no?

Which of the two options are we most likely to end up with considering the current state the game? The toggle or the much more complicated update for companions? In all likelihood, we'd get the toggle and everything else would fall by the wayside. Then, considering the condition of another recent much wanted toggle (supposed to hide sorc pets and the like), it would probably work incorrectly or introduce further bugs.

Yeah, as much as I don't want to admit it, I definitely share the pessimism of current state of the game, and I don't think you're wrong with those considerations - I mean, I wish you were, but things definitely haven't been in the best of places lately when it comes to development and implementation.

I hope that changes though, definitely gives ZOS lots of opportunity to impress if they decide to act on things. Here's hoping!

rootkitronin

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Toggles in this game have generally had absolutely no bearing on the balance or content added to a system. They did not stop improving companions just because they added an option to set dialogue to minimum, for example.

@spartaxoxo , I don't always agree with your takes, but I do love and admire your continued optimism, especially given that you also have no problem expressing critical views of changes and the current state of the game as well.

Treselegant

spartaxoxo wrote: »

They literally just gave us both a new toggle option and new content for companions at the same time. When it comes to the history of the companions, there exists zero instances of only giving us a toggle without any plans to update companions. It's not a thing.

Its reasonable to be skeptical about how things are being handled right now with resources being allocated to some seemingly odd places while other features remain very unloved. The companion I use day to day, still has less lines the the rest, still has quite a few lines out right broken/ not firing while also lacking the content the new ones have but yeah, wow, I got some toggles I guess .

spartaxoxo

rootkitronin wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Toggles in this game have generally had absolutely no bearing on the balance or content added to a system. They did not stop improving companions just because they added an option to set dialogue to minimum, for example.

@spartaxoxo , I don't always agree with your takes, but I do love and admire your continued optimism, especially given that you also have no problem expressing critical views of changes and the current state of the game as well.

Thank you.

I try to look at what ZOS has been doing instead of painting all content with the same brush. So, for PVP, I feel pretty confident they aren't going to get anything new until 2024 at the earliest. And I'm skeptical that their fixes will work, because thus far none of them have. I won't go so far as to say they've done nothing though, because they did try. Their fixes simply failed e.g. the proc changes.

With the companions, it's different. They have consistently pushed out QOL changes and added new content, and already stated they are working on more new content for companions in the future (romance options). Companions, unlike skills or classes, also have zero impact on Cyrodiil because they are disabled. ZOS therefore has given me no reason to believe they will not do both QOL and Content changes. They are already actively doing both, without fail.

So why should I doomsay such casual content, when they have been pretty good about it? It's vet content and PvP that's neglected imo.

Treselegant

rootkitronin wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Treselegant wrote: »

rootkitronin wrote: »

Well, before Mirri entered the picture and caused her usual chaos, you had stated a couple times that you thought the "companion perk items could be better done but I'd rather they be improved along with the rest of companion system".

What kinds of changes or improvements would you like to see to the companion system overall?

Ok - better perks for one. Something I have agreed with from the start. Less need to have a toggle because people are having to trash useless items if they aren't so useless to start with.

More dialogue for companions in general as well as more environmental and story interaction as part of this. More quests for the Blackwood pair as they currently have less than the High Isle ones. I'd even support removing the -1 rapport loss for cheese and bugs for Mirri and Bastian because it isn't that relevant and if there was more varied dialogue you would have less need this sort of 'flavour' rapport commentry anyway, as proven by the High Isle companions.

Better combat ai would probably be appeciated by a lot of people too. I don't have too much trouble when using a tank companion but ranged ones frequently stand in red, catch aggro by mistake or roll dodge right out of the boss arena.

There's just a lot that could be done, other people have mentioned things in the thread that would be useful as well. I just think there needs to be more content/tuning done for them.

I agree with all of those ideas, the bugs thing alone would be fantastic, but as someone who really only uses companions because they fit the rp of my characters, I would absolutely love to see more dialogue.

Combat could be improved for sure, as could the overall perks and interactions in general... though I don't have any specific ideas for the perks, but the current ones don't really inspire.

Not bad ideas at all, good critiques that I think most would agree on. It would be a much bigger undertaking than a simple perk toggle though - definitely an worthwhile undertaking though, but if they could toss out a toggle in the meantime, I don't think that could hurt either.

That being said, I wouldn't want a toggle at the expense of progress towards a more significant overhaul. But I think with a company as big as ZOS, it's okay to ask for both, no?

Which of the two options are we most likely to end up with considering the current state the game? The toggle or the much more complicated update for companions? In all likelihood, we'd get the toggle and everything else would fall by the wayside. Then, considering the condition of another recent much wanted toggle (supposed to hide sorc pets and the like), it would probably work incorrectly or introduce further bugs.

Yeah, as much as I don't want to admit it, I definitely share the pessimism of current state of the game, and I don't think you're wrong with those considerations - I mean, I wish you were, but things definitely haven't been in the best of places lately when it comes to development and implementation.

I hope that changes though, definitely gives ZOS lots of opportunity to impress if they decide to act on things. Here's hoping!

I'd love to be wrong. Love to be. I've waited all year to be suprised but that hasn't happened yet and the year is now drawing to a close and things remain the same as ever.

ZOS_Icy

Greetings,

We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

Thank you for your understanding.

Carcamongus

There's a saying in Brazil, "to block the sun with a sieve". It basically means using a very insufficient method to deal with a problem. I can understand the concern that adding a toggle would be the sieve and the bigger problem, how poor the rewards are, will remain unresolved. Considering some recent absurd bugs and the long time it's taking to fix some of them, I can also understand the pessimism (or is it realism?).

However, I don't think this is really a blocking the sun with a sieve situation. For starters, even if the keepsakes were to be improved, it's quite likely that some people would still dislike the items being added to their inventory. Instead of focusing on how each individual manages their slots, we should consider that even the most efficient organizer might still be annoyed by the extra containers or potions.

Two suggestions were given: to improve rewards and to add a toggle. Why can't both be done as part of a reworking of the companions? Bundle those along with other improvements, such as Mirri only getting angry if you harvest the bug, not if you merely accidentally activate it. There are several ways companions can be annoying, after all; if we presume fixing one irritant will preclude fixing the others, then we might as well not expect any improvements at all, regardless of which one we find more relevant.

Necrotech_Master

SammyKhajit wrote: »

Necrotech_Master wrote: »

SammyKhajit wrote: »

This one agrees with OP: the companions’ perks need a boost. Bastian’s potions are hopeless, Mirri and Ember’s extra loots are helpful but too infrequent to make much difference. Ditto Isobel. Either that or give us the option to turn them off.

There is also the “prerequisite” for every new character having to go through the companions’ intro quest. The first few times are fine, but this one has hair balls at the thought of doing it for all of his eight characters.

Also, please, let the companions just to carry their own gear. That, and shorten the duration of ultimate animation - it seems to take forever and usually by then the enemies are dead and only some poor rats get fried.

i also absolutely despise the intro quest requirement on the companions (yes i have done all 4 companions quests on all 10 of my toons, and i was very vocal in the companion feedback on the high isle PTS about hating doing the quest on every toon)

i dont have much of a problem with gear because the companions i have only use 1 set of gear, we have 4 companions and only need 3 specs (heal, dps, tank), so i just have each one spec for 1 role only

That’s disappointing to hear the PTS feedback wasn’t heeded. Also, AWA is really inconsistently applied: why is it that delves completed by the first alt is deemed as cleared for all other alts (this one complained about it and thought it was a bug, turns out it was a feature), and yet we must go through each companions quest all over?

As to the gears, Sammy wishes he has your resolve - he is forever collecting and piecing bits of gears in the hope that a) companions will die less; and b) one day ZOS will do a QOL change and all those useless purple maul with healing properties can be deconned

the companions unlocks arent really related to AWA, and in this case, its actually the opposite, its an account wide unlock that is also individually locked behind the intro quests lol

i also wouldnt keep your hopes up about the companion gear, they would likely pull what they did with jewelry crafting (all jewelry that was dropped pre-summerset cannot be deconstructed lol)

i usually sell it if its a decent trait that i dont need that is worth a decent amount, or i just destroy it to get it out of my inventory because i dont need to use it on one of my companions

Giraffon

I have all for companions maxed out and the passive perks are active for all. My complaint is that a lot of this stuff is of marginal value and it takes up space in my pack. Maybe they should give the companions some storage slots and let them carry that junk around until I'm ready to receive it?

Bastion's junk potions, Mirri's worthless recipes and trinkets, and Isobel's back packs from less fortunate adventurers.

These would all be great but for the fact that combined, I can be down 20 slots in my inventory after 20 minutes of regular gameplay. It's just more bags to open, more inventory to manage. It's not a very good reward for grinding those companions to max level.