Misadventures in obtaining Ancestral Reach motif leads

Recremen

With the Skyrim celebration event wrapping up, I'd like to take some time to go over my experience finishing up the Ancestral Reach Antiquities Codex entries. It was a lovely event to start trying to get this cleared up, as treasure maps were going for as low as 1k gold each, with an average somewhere around the 4-5k mark. Incredible, considering they had typically gone for upper-10's to low-100's on guild traders. I thought I'd buy up a few, go dig up some leads, complete the codex for cheap, and be on my merry way. Unfortunately, things did not go as planned!!

Now this isn't my first rodeo, so I did the same thing all experienced adventurers do when faced with a "farming" style challenge: I immediate bulk-bought dozens of treasure maps and began the joyless task of speed digging them straight from my mail in order to save time. This worked incredibly well for the first dozen leads. I think I only spent about 100 maps getting 12 distinct leads. I of course decided that I would try to juke the system by NOT immediately scrying for and digging up the antiquity as soon as I got the lead for it, imagining that there was a specific chance to drop A lead for the motif, rather than some other setup like each individual lead having its own chance to drop at a very low rate. I was very fearful that I'd get duplicates if I dug them up immediately and waste a bunch of time and maps digging up stuff that I'd only end up selling, instead of leaving them for other people to finish their codex. This is where things began to go horribly wrong.

I spent another 50 or so maps before finally scoring my 13th lead, for Chests. Awesome, I thought! A rare one that sells for a bunch of gold! Not that I was going to sell it, these were for personal use, but it still felt great to find. A bit much to get another lead, but hey, that's RNG for ya, right? And so I kept digging for the last, blessed, final lead. And digging. And digging.

And digging.

At around map #300, I realized that there was probably something wrong, but I didn't know what. The final lead (for Shoulders) wasn't dropping. Did I have too many antiquity leads? I ran to the local Reach tavern and picked up the lead for Ancient Map of the Reach. Nope, that's not it, I was able to pick up that lead without any issue. Maybe only motif leads were capped at 13? No way to test, so can't confirm. Well, maybe I'll just dig up one of the really expensive ones, Chests, in particular, and see if the next lead I get is a duplicate or not. But not yet. I'm sure I'll get the lead I'm looking for in no time, after all, it's just and artifact of RNG, right?

At map #400, I decided to dig up the Chests motif. Awesome, another motif for the collection, time to go look for the next lead and hope there's no duplicates until you finish the codex!

The next lead was for a duplicate of Chests. Okay, so there's duplicates, that's unfortunate, but at least I can juke it to drop just between shoulders I dug it up again. I did the same cycle again, for Chests, again. Rinse and repeat a couple of times. Okay, well, not having a lot of luck there, but it's surely just got to be RNG at this point, right? So I should just go back to the old method, and surely my lead will come.

At a bit past map #500, I decided that no, in fact, there was indeed something deeply wrong with the method I was using. I let go. I dug up all my leads. I started digging up antiquities as soon as I got the leads. Many duplicates later, three days after initially starting my endeavor, a little past map # 600, I finally found the missing lead for Shoulders. I had already committed to a life without joy, but I wasn't expecting the process to be not only mirthless, but bordering on a little miserable.

Where did it go wrong? Why did it take over 600 maps? Could that have been avoided? Is there a secret cap to leads, are they unjukeable, or are they totally random and this is just the expected data point on the total distribution? If there was something wrong with my method, shouldn't that be more explicitly stated somewhere? Or better yet, shouldn't that just... not be the wrong way to do it? Are players really supposed to be using up 600 maps (or more, or infinite) each to finish out a given Ancestral Motif codex page? Well, at least I got mine. It feels sick to say it. Like something you'd expect out of a sociopath. But I finished. Hope nobody else who was looking to do this got screwed over because I was hogging all the cheap PC NA lead maps for three days in a row.

code65536

I've long wondered whether or not Ancestral leads worked like that: whether if it rolled a lead that I already had if it would reroll or just leave me with nothing.

And I thank you for your time testing this and sharing with us your findings.

And I wholeheartedly agree that the current system just plain sucks, esp. for people like you who care about codex entries.

jaws343

From experience having farmed them all across all zones so far, always, always, always dig up the lead before looting another treasure chest. You will make a ton of your spent gold back, and save on having to loot a ton of chests.

I think, on average, it has taken me between 100-150 maps to get all 14 leads. Usually get a ton of duplicate pages to sell there too. For example, when doing High Isle maps this summer. I bought close to 100 maps, all around 40K gold each, spent around 4M gold. From selling the duplicate pages I found, and the remaining maps I had left over that I ended up not needing, I made out with 3.5M in return.

So, all in, I only had to spend around 500K to get all 14 leads. And this has been pretty much consistent results across all of the chapter zones with the Ancestral pages so far.

AJTC5000

So the takeaways I gathered from this:

• There is NO RNG protection/curation against leads themselves - purely random
• Loot your motifs immediately after receiving the lead to prevent a duplicate lead for the same chapter from being "consumed" by you holding on to the lead
• The RNG for the chapter distrbution sucks

CGPsaint

I have some bad news for you. Ancestral Daedric leads from the Deadlands are even worse. Not only are the maps more expensive (average 30K-35K), but the drop rate on the lead is much worse than any of the previous zones. I'm sitting around 10-11 maps per lead, have a whopping 4 pages learned, and have pulled gloves 5 times.

Grizzbeorn

I gave up on Motif leads; never mind even trying to complete their codices.
It's too much of a hassle, given the RNG when hunting for specific zone treasure maps, on top of the nested RNG for the chance of a motif lead popping from a map once you find one.

If I want a motif badly enough, I'll just buy the pages from the guild traders.

jaws343

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

I gave up on Motif leads; never mind even trying to complete their codices.
It's too much of a hassle, given the RNG when hunting for specific zone treasure maps, on top of the nested RNG for the chance of a motif lead popping from a map once you find one.

If I want a motif badly enough, I'll just buy the pages from the guild traders.

Motif leads only need 1 to complete the codice.

K9002

I considered myself fairly lucky when I used under 200 maps to complete the Akaviri motif last year. This year I wasn't counting the Skyrim maps but right now I'm at 13/14 of the Reach motif and I'm yet to start buying up maps. Need swords, want to get it through maps for the codex entry. But I'm not keeping my hopes high.

The motif page leads are the best case for introducing lead trading. We can trade the pages, sure, but not the codex entries.

SammyKhajit

600 maps! That is a lot of patience and perseverance.

Just out of curiosity, how much gold did you spent on the maps? And if taking both the gold (ie earning the said gold) and time spent digging and finding leads, how much time in total would you estimate you have spent?

Thrasher91604

At some point the return on maps bought and time spent is much less than just buying the few remaining pages. Also trading in zone for spare pages makes it go much faster.

Luke_Flamesword

I'm guy who like to collect things. I have all style pages, almost all obtainable furniture recipes (except 3 most expensive ones and new Galen ones). I consider filling whole sticker book with gear. But codex entries in antiquities? Heh, I don't even think about it. So many leads are so awful, terrible, exhausting, boring and pure trolling thing and most of them need 3 excavations to complete, when even one lead becomes pure nightmare. I wanted to have every lead at least once but with ancestral motivs even that is too much.

btw I didn't farm for event but I had something like 10+ maps from boxes and didn't get even one lead.

Seriously, some leads are the worst kind of grind in whole game. This brings feeling like "geez, what I'm doing with my life" and I don't know how it suppose to support game as relaxing, fun thing to do in free time

code65536

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

At some point the return on maps bought and time spent is much less than just buying the few remaining pages. Also trading in zone for spare pages makes it go much faster.

That's the problem with leads not being tradeable: the OP is trying to complete the antiquity codex, which comes from excavating the lead. Yes, you can trade or buy to complete the motif, but that won't do anything for the antiquities codex.

DragonRacer

It's definitely super strange RNG. During the High Isle event, I had a ton of maps saved up and completed about half of the Ancestral Breton motifs within only about 20-30 maps. Felt like I was getting a lead roughly every 2-3 maps. Was awesome.

Used up my Blackreach, Reach, and Western Skyrim maps this event (after already having over half the Ancestral Reach motifs dug up over time) and I swear Shields does not exist (the last one I am missing). I did, however, have a stint where the only leads I got for a day were Belts and Legs. Like, 3 times over. It was weird.

redlink1979

600 maps?! Rng working as intended, no doubt.

jcaceresw

Spent 1.5M on maps mostly because the Staves lead did not want to appear. Something I noticed when farming leads is the limit of 5 leads per zone no matter their rarity (green, purple or gold). Once you reach that amount you will stop getting leads until you clear some or all of them (scry and excavate).

OP is so lucky for having Chest lead multiple times so he/she may recover the money spent on those maps. I only got pretty common pages that would only give me 250k if sold. This do not make up for all the gold I have spent in order to complete the motif on my main character.

Grega

Yeah, the reality is it’s all RNG. Everyone will have different experience with this as a result.

@Recremen it took you 600 maps to achieve what @jaws343 says took him 150 maps for same thing. RNG.
Meanwhile, I dug up 80 deadlands maps and still got 0 leads from there, 54 Galen maps and no lead either. Reach motif I bought 1 because at 800 maps dug up, BELTS simply would not drop and I for sure thought the game was broken. At the time, also, it seemed like belts were gone on the server and only @Josh3133 had one that he kindly sold me so I finally finished the collection. But to this date, never finished the codex.
Again, RNG, which this game is so “wonderful” at 🤣

Recremen

SammyKhajit wrote: »

600 maps! That is a lot of patience and perseverance.

Just out of curiosity, how much gold did you spent on the maps? And if taking both the gold (ie earning the said gold) and time spent digging and finding leads, how much time in total would you estimate you have spent?

I haven't sold the other motifs yet so idk total, but spending was only a few million because of how cheap maps were going for during the event.

Thrasher91604

code65536 wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

At some point the return on maps bought and time spent is much less than just buying the few remaining pages. Also trading in zone for spare pages makes it go much faster.

That's the problem with leads not being tradeable: the OP is trying to complete the antiquity codex, which comes from excavating the lead. Yes, you can trade or buy to complete the motif, but that won't do anything for the antiquities codex.

I consider the codex completion a pointless waste of time. Most of the motif entries are the weakest of the bunch.

I ended up only spending ~150k gold to complete motif knowledge for ancestral reach. Started the event with maybe half of the motifs known. Got about 5 from maps and trades, all maps found myself. Ended up buying the last 2 for about 150k (legs and chest).

code65536

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Thrasher91604 wrote: »

At some point the return on maps bought and time spent is much less than just buying the few remaining pages. Also trading in zone for spare pages makes it go much faster.

That's the problem with leads not being tradeable: the OP is trying to complete the antiquity codex, which comes from excavating the lead. Yes, you can trade or buy to complete the motif, but that won't do anything for the antiquities codex.

I consider the codex completion a pointless waste of time. Most of the motif entries are the weakest of the bunch.

I agree, which is why I personally don't bother. But some people, such as the OP, do care.

But whether or not you or I care about completing it is irrelevant. The point remains: why add this extra element for players to complete (after all, they could've made the motifs have 0 codex entries, similar to the Bottle of Proving) and then make it unreasonably difficult to complete?

Thrasher91604

I consider codex entries irrelevant as well as the card game, and lots of other things in the game. You have to, because there’s too much to do otherwise.

If you choose to make codex entries relevant you are in a world of pain. No thanks.

Necrotech_Master

i would like to at least dig up each lead at least once, and at some point i do want to go back and get the codex entries for the furnishings at least, since those do provide a benefit for having all the codex entries

mythics you need to dig up once to add them to collection, recreate is so much less painful than farming leads (so only benefit to getting 1/3 of codex entries per item)

furnishings you need to dig up 3 times then you can just buy them from furnishing vendors (i wish they had a dedicated vendor for the antiquity furnishings to make it easier to freaking find lol)

the rest of the antiquity the codex dont really provide any benefit for any codex entry outside of personal satisfaction lol

Carcamongus

During the Skyrim event I dug up 4 chests and got 3 leads. Why was RNGeesus generous to me, you might ask? Probably because I already completed the style. I certainly had way less luck with ancestral Akaviri (though I didn't keep count). For ancient Daedric, I got 4 leads (1 repeat) from 19 maps and ancestral Breton, 6 from 30. I'm just glad Firesong doesn't have yet another ancestral style, though we still need Galen maps for other leads.

Now, 600 is an absurd number and the patience required to put up with that is far beyond what I can accomplish.

SammyKhajit

Recremen wrote: »

SammyKhajit wrote: »

600 maps! That is a lot of patience and perseverance.

Just out of curiosity, how much gold did you spent on the maps? And if taking both the gold (ie earning the said gold) and time spent digging and finding leads, how much time in total would you estimate you have spent?

I haven't sold the other motifs yet so idk total, but spending was only a few million because of how cheap maps were going for during the event.

That’s good to hear. Several millions is too much for khajit, but so long as you are getting the better deal, and cheaper map prices.

This one wishes you luck!

Hapexamendios

Like some others have said I've pretty much given up on leads like this. It's far too much of a pain in the neck.

reddog1948

I think the answer is much simpler. Go look in the crown store - guess what all of these "hard to get" motifs are for sale for around 5,000 crowns each. Why give a sucker an even break. They are not in this for their enjoyment, but to separate you from as much money as they can. IMHO they are getting higher total revenue by offering a bunch of motifs for sale and "letting" you play for free - and so much the better if you are an ESO Plus subscriber.
I play once per week with my brother (an ESO Plus subscriber) and he gets yellow leads almost every week, while I play the free mode and feel lucky if I get one per month.
Play for free and charging for anything perceived as valuable or wanted items has become the standard game model across most online games from all of the vendors.
I think that explains the high prices at guild vendors for various motifs and why farming for them is so very hard.
I am thinking of wearing treasurer hunter gear to see if treasure map drops increase.

jle30303

you're still missing the point.

it isn't even about the motifs.

it's about the antiquity codex entries. These are NOT for sale in the crown store.

LadyLavina

Recremen wrote: »

are they unjukeable,

How does one juke a lead?

CGPsaint

jcaceresw wrote: »

Something I noticed when farming leads is the limit of 5 leads per zone no matter their rarity (green, purple or gold). Once you reach that amount you will stop getting leads until you clear some or all of them (scry and excavate).

This is 100% not true. I managed to grab more than a dozen of the leads for the Galen mythic in the first couple of days after drop and didn't bother to start scrying/digging any of them up until one of the endeavors came around for scrying/digging up purple/gold leads.

reddog1948 wrote: »

I think the answer is much simpler. Go look in the crown store - guess what all of these "hard to get" motifs are for sale for around 5,000 crowns each.

This is also 100% not true. None of the Ancestral motifs have been released for sale in the Crown Store. They are tied to the antiquities system and that is the only way to get those styles.

Supreme_Atromancer

@Recremen just a different thing I considered when getting burned out from farming something: you could farm until you reach your threshold, then sell duplicates and use the profits to buy ones you don't have. Especially if there's some drastic diminishing returns thing going on (which seems possible from what you *wrote). I think the system is meant to give people something to work towards, over time, and devil's advocate- not really intended to be smashed out in one go. Also possibly to direct people to engage in the economy by using guild merchants.

ETA: Ah, but if its purely about the codex entries, that's a different kettle of fish. That's a lot of work to do something there's no other way to do.

Recremen

LadyLavina wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

are they unjukeable,

How does one juke a lead?

Some game events can produce multiple lead types. Harrowstorms, for example, can produce three types : Chain of the Vampire, Red Eagle Cave Painting, and Vampiric Stained Glass. My working hypothesis was that if you get one of the leads, but don't dig it up, then the next time that game event would produce a lead, it must produce one that you don't yet currently have. This appears to not be the case.

Supreme_Atromancer wrote: »

ETA: Ah, but if its purely about the codex entries, that's a different kettle of fish. That's a lot of work to do something there's no other way to do.

Yeah there's nothing to be done for it except provide feedback that this is not a good experience, even for those of us who are fine doing a standard farm. Just gotta hope the devs hear about it, agree that it's not meeting expectations, and change how it works.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour

I've been trying to complete my codex for these, and I noticed that specific leads drop on specific days.