Just nerf crow already

spartaxoxo

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Absolutely. We have at the moment two decks (Orgnum and Crow) for which early picks are decisive.

Of course with other decks this can happen but this is much much rarer while with Orgnum and Crow this is consistently the case.

I don't spam Orgnum as it is the least fun strat unless Orgnum is enforced on me by my opponent.

When I am out for an easy win I always pick Crow and from two or three picks either by me or by my opponent I know what outcome the match will have.

As I said Orgnum needs a nerf in terms of power generation and/or cost so that players don't have an incentive to spam it early on.

Crow needs a nerf on the added card synergy and ideally reduce power output from Crow.

I wouldnt waste your time trying to argue this further, truth is crow/red eagle spammers found a braindead RNG tactic and it can ignore all other mechanics, so they will continue to push for it to not be nerfed. Its why I have a jolly good laugh when my cards align, and I spam the hated cat.

My general pick is Druid King, Red Eagle, and Hlallu. I also think obviously Druid King needs a nerf but I enjoy the deck. I don't think Crows needs a nerf. It's got really obvious counterplay and I seldom see it in competitive games. I mostly see it unranked and last I checked I won against it more often than other decks.

I do see a lot of Pelin and Rahjiin. Rahjiin seems to dominate the leaderboards. It seems rare I play comp without running into these decks. It makes me think it's the decks most in need of nerfs. But, only the devs can confirm that suspicion.

Anyway, I do think Crows+Red Eagle are an important counter to Rahjiin spam, and if they nerf Crow they'll need to also change Rahjiin.

I don't think that you play a lot of competitive matches. Crow is the most picked deck in competitive matches and I play several ones per day. Each day.

I play enough to know that Crow is not the most picked for me. Your personal experience simply doesn't match mine. We aren't even on the same server or platform. Pelin is the most used deck that I have seen. And all of the leaderboard players I have seen except 1 use Rahjiin.

In fact, not wanting to play so much against Pelin and Rahjiin is one reason I prefer Unranked. I see way more crow in Unranked. I like seeing Crow get picked in Unranked because I have a high winrate against it.

Jusey1

I've been doing my dailies once again for Tales of Tributes and have went up against a person running Crow every single time... Won all my matches except for one so far though. I do notice one trend about Crow users... They don't know how to strategize, so if you force them into a situation where they have to actually think then they tend to just give up or let you win. They also ignore cards from other decks that are actually really good for a Crow deck, so it's very easy to strategize their own Crow deck against them and really use it (Red Eagle is a fun combo with Crow where I can play my whole entire deck per turn, every turn).

~Edit: My favorite method though is victory via patrons. If you get all but Crow in your favor, they just don't know what to do... Cause they can't call in the Crow early or else they lose their big win button later down the road, but they can't really call any other Patreons (assuming you pick the right ones) because they don't have easy access to making them happy or don't want to (Hlaalu will never be touched by them since they hoard their cards and will not want to sacrifice them).

AnduinTryggva

So you use Crow to win against somebody who picked Crow. As how does this prove that Crow is not op?

Jusey1

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

So you use Crow to win against somebody who picked Crow. As how does this prove that Crow is not op?

I am saying that strategy beats any solo deck play. The game is primarily about strategizing different decks together, and not just mindlessly playing a specific deck. Crow isn't that powerful of a deck and I gave one example of how it should be strategized with another deck while explaining how these Crow players are awful at the game because they completely ignore good strategies in favor of Crow only deck. I also gave a strategy that is good at countering the Crow deck, plus there's more methods...

Hell, I only effectively used the Crow deck once so far with Red Eagle. All other wins has been via different means and other strategies because I don't always do the same thing as it depends heavily on the luck of the draw.

AnduinTryggva

You state the obvious. The thing is: For two players with equal knowledge Crow is the brain-dead winning strat and that player who manages to pick two lila cards with + synergy have practically won already. Due to the self-enhancing functionality it is just about picking all crow cards plus one or two power cards and the game is done.

I have played ToT since its release on a daily basis and I play so often until I get 3 wins which means that I play 5+ matches per day minimum. And I play almost exclusively ranked games. Maybe you play on different server but on EU server Crow + Black Eagle is the most selected deck combination and from my experience I know that the player who picks two or more Crow cards with a + synergy will win with a probability that is much much closer to 90% than to 50%.

This is why I think Crow needs at least a nerf that one needs minimum 3 lila cards for popping the + synergy. Ideally added by a reduction or removal of power gain from Crow set.

I'd rather see more power added to the psijic set which gets far too little power output.

Jusey1

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

You state the obvious. The thing is: For two players with equal knowledge Crow is the brain-dead winning strat and that player who manages to pick two lila cards with + synergy have practically won already. Due to the self-enhancing functionality it is just about picking all crow cards plus one or two power cards and the game is done.

No... I have won many times with Crow players doing just that. It's not that hard to deal with it or to do a better strategy.

WitchyKiki

Jusey1 wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

You state the obvious. The thing is: For two players with equal knowledge Crow is the brain-dead winning strat and that player who manages to pick two lila cards with + synergy have practically won already. Due to the self-enhancing functionality it is just about picking all crow cards plus one or two power cards and the game is done.

No... I have won many times with Crow players doing just that. It's not that hard to deal with it or to do a better strategy.

Then please present your better strategy, because Anduin makes a point.

spartaxoxo

Pelin and Druid King are both decent counters to crows. Pelin, just rush to 40, and use taunts to soak up power. Druid King, use the patron to deny the opponent crow cards. Druid and Pelin are nice in combo against crows because of all the taunts, and you'll basically always have the power to just get rid of the crows. The Druid King is also pretty good at generating coins, so you can still make good use of the crow patron even if they got more crow cards than you did.

WitchyKiki

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Pelin and Druid King are both decent counters to crows. Pelin, just rush to 40, and use taunts to soak up power. Druid King, use the patron to deny the opponent crow cards. Druid and Pelin are nice in combo against crows because of all the taunts, and you'll basically always have the power to just get rid of the crows. The Druid King is also pretty good at generating coins, so you can still make good use of the crow patron even if they got more crow cards than you did.

I know about Pelin, but I've never tried Pelin+Druid together as a counter, I'll give it a go sometime.

Jusey1

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Then please present your better strategy, because Anduin makes a point.

My general method is making sure to pick Patreons that are easy to please (Druid King + Hlaalu combo for example is good). Get all Patreons in your favor with Crow last as a primary objective first, since early game Crow players don't have enough power to generate to please the Patreons and they will REFUSE to sacrifice their crow cards... So either they'll rage quit or use the Crow patreon in hopes that you will fight them over it but you just don't... From there, do what sparta has said. Use the Druid deck to control the tavern. Both Druid and Hlaalu decks are good at controlling the tavern in all honesty and can generate decent amount of prestige with the Hlaalu's patreon, plus a few specific cards. If the crow player is using Red Eagle, which is to be expected, then make sure to have a few of those cards for power generating.

WitchyKiki

Jusey1 wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Then please present your better strategy, because Anduin makes a point.

My general method is making sure to pick Patreons that are easy to please (Druid King + Hlaalu combo for example is good). Get all Patreons in your favor with Crow last as a primary objective first, since early game Crow players don't have enough power to generate to please the Patreons and they will REFUSE to sacrifice their crow cards... So either they'll rage quit or use the Crow patreon in hopes that you will fight them over it but you just don't... From there, do what sparta has said. Use the Druid deck to control the tavern. Both Druid and Hlaalu decks are good at controlling the tavern in all honesty and can generate decent amount of prestige with the Hlaalu's patreon, plus a few specific cards. If the crow player is using Red Eagle, which is to be expected, then make sure to have a few of those cards for power generating.

This really doesn't take into account tavern RNG. While I can see how pelin and druid can be good counters, I still think it stands that Crow is OP and needs a tone down in its draw power of cards. Red eagle comboed on there is just problematic.

AnduinTryggva

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Then please present your better strategy, because Anduin makes a point.

My general method is making sure to pick Patreons that are easy to please (Druid King + Hlaalu combo for example is good). Get all Patreons in your favor with Crow last as a primary objective first, since early game Crow players don't have enough power to generate to please the Patreons and they will REFUSE to sacrifice their crow cards... So either they'll rage quit or use the Crow patreon in hopes that you will fight them over it but you just don't... From there, do what sparta has said. Use the Druid deck to control the tavern. Both Druid and Hlaalu decks are good at controlling the tavern in all honesty and can generate decent amount of prestige with the Hlaalu's patreon, plus a few specific cards. If the crow player is using Red Eagle, which is to be expected, then make sure to have a few of those cards for power generating.

This really doesn't take into account tavern RNG. While I can see how pelin and druid can be good counters, I still think it stands that Crow is OP and needs a tone down in its draw power of cards. Red eagle comboed on there is just problematic.

This. Most Crow players now use Red Eagle as second. Only newbies may not have access yet to it or don't know about that specific strat.

The only counter that I found is spamming Pelin in a quick power race but to be honest this is really tough. While good Crow cards are numerous, Pelin cards that allow the power race are more difficult to obtain. And I don't think Pelin needs a buff as it would completely destroy the balancing on this side.

So I reiterate my proposal to slighly nerf Crow to need three lila cards in a hand minimum to popp the plus synergy. This would push the overpowered positive feedback functionality of Crow to a later stage of the game so that some early lucky draws are not so decisive.

Ideally also reduce power output for Crow as Crow functionality should be above all in the draw-additional-cards functionality and coin generation.

AnduinTryggva

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Jusey1 wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

Then please present your better strategy, because Anduin makes a point.

My general method is making sure to pick Patreons that are easy to please (Druid King + Hlaalu combo for example is good). Get all Patreons in your favor with Crow last as a primary objective first, since early game Crow players don't have enough power to generate to please the Patreons and they will REFUSE to sacrifice their crow cards... So either they'll rage quit or use the Crow patreon in hopes that you will fight them over it but you just don't... From there, do what sparta has said. Use the Druid deck to control the tavern. Both Druid and Hlaalu decks are good at controlling the tavern in all honesty and can generate decent amount of prestige with the Hlaalu's patreon, plus a few specific cards. If the crow player is using Red Eagle, which is to be expected, then make sure to have a few of those cards for power generating.

This really doesn't take into account tavern RNG. While I can see how pelin and druid can be good counters, I still think it stands that Crow is OP and needs a tone down in its draw power of cards. Red eagle comboed on there is just problematic.

I thought ok let's give it a try specifically when the other player choses red eagle/crow. It uterly failed because the other player went for crow plus druid king with some red eagle in between.

So many pelin cards I could not purchase. Pelin cards are rightfully pretty expensive with respect to their power output.

Just nerf Crow a little, see post above and it may become a balanced set.

Personofsecrets

All of the 4 cost crow cards should cost 5 instead so that there is more of a trade off in taking early crow cards. Pilfer should cost 6 for consistency reasons, but it is also just powerful enough to cost 6 too.

WitchyKiki

Personofsecrets wrote: »

All of the 4 cost crow cards should cost 5 instead so that there is more of a trade off in taking early crow cards. Pilfer should cost 6 for consistency reasons, but it is also just powerful enough to cost 6 too.

Good point, its pretty OP when you pick a 4 coin (draw) card and then get to trade a writ or pick a 2 coin card. a 5 coin cost would be more balanced.

MidniteOwl1913

If I were going to nerf a deck I'd pick Pelin. Waaayyy too much luck with that deck. And I just kick Ogram to the curb. Crow takes time, it's a risk. Pacing can be ruined by RNG. Hmm, maybe ponce and profit could also use a nerf...

Jusey1

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If I were going to nerf a deck I'd pick Pelin. Waaayyy too much luck with that deck. And I just kick Ogram to the curb. Crow takes time, it's a risk. Pacing can be ruined by RNG. Hmm, maybe ponce and profit could also use a nerf...

Honestly, I rather nerf Druid King. He has a few specific cards that are too cheap for how much power they can become when used and if you can't get your power cards in play fast enough, you will basically lose due to getting too far behind. I think Pelin is nice and Crow is okay due to how easily it is to counter (base on my experience at least, some people do seem to disagree heavily). Ogram's problem is the patreon, not the deck. I have attempted a few matches with it where it seems both me and my opponent agreed to not use the patreon and the deck is alright on it's own.

spartaxoxo

Jusey1 wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If I were going to nerf a deck I'd pick Pelin. Waaayyy too much luck with that deck. And I just kick Ogram to the curb. Crow takes time, it's a risk. Pacing can be ruined by RNG. Hmm, maybe ponce and profit could also use a nerf...

Honestly, I rather nerf Druid King. He has a few specific cards that are too cheap for how much power they can become when used and if you can't get your power cards in play fast enough, you will basically lose due to getting too far behind. I think Pelin is nice and Crow is okay due to how easily it is to counter (base on my experience at least, some people do seem to disagree heavily). Ogram's problem is the patreon, not the deck. I have attempted a few matches with it where it seems both me and my opponent agreed to not use the patreon and the deck is alright on it's own.

I agree with most of this, and I do use Druid King because it's a fun deck. But there are somethings like the Contract Agent that need a nerf. I still enjoy it as a counter to crow though. The patron and it's effect are so nice against it, in my experience.

Jusey1

spartaxoxo wrote: »

I agree with most of this, and I do use Druid King because it's a fun deck. But there are somethings like the Contract Agent that need a nerf. I still enjoy it as a counter to crow though. The patron and it's effect are so nice against it, in my experience.

I agree but that Contract Agent though... I once had a horrible moment where my opponent was able to get two of them in a single turn and I had no power generation for three turns so I couldn't do anything to get rid of them.. (I literally got all of my power cards in one turn so I wiped all of my opponent's agents but by then, I was way too far behind in scoring to catch up reasonably enough). Felt awful and makes me never want to use Druid King again in player matches.

AnduinTryggva

Jusey1 wrote: »

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

If I were going to nerf a deck I'd pick Pelin. Waaayyy too much luck with that deck. And I just kick Ogram to the curb. Crow takes time, it's a risk. Pacing can be ruined by RNG. Hmm, maybe ponce and profit could also use a nerf...

Honestly, I rather nerf Druid King. He has a few specific cards that are too cheap for how much power they can become when used and if you can't get your power cards in play fast enough, you will basically lose due to getting too far behind. I think Pelin is nice and Crow is okay due to how easily it is to counter (base on my experience at least, some people do seem to disagree heavily). Ogram's problem is the patreon, not the deck. I have attempted a few matches with it where it seems both me and my opponent agreed to not use the patreon and the deck is alright on it's own.

Orgnum set is fine, it is the patron abuse potential that makes it one of the most hated decks.

While I used Crow a lot in the past and occasionally do it now when my opponent picks it I came to the conclusion that it is the card analogy to Orgnum. You just buy all violett cards that you can get, ideally remove treasure cards and it is almost automatic walk through and difficult to counter. Both sets usually decide the outcome early in the math and to counter it one needs quite some tavern luck. If both Orgnum and Crow are slightly nerfed without removing its basic functionality it would be fine.

Druid King is a powerful set but it only becomes decisive in a later stage. In this respect it is entirely different to Crow and Orgnum. If you are going for Druid King strat you need to be consistent with your strategy throughout quite a long time of the match giving amble opportunities to your opponent to pursue his/her own strategy and fight yours.

spartaxoxo

The first time I encountered the DK+Pelin combo vs crows, I wasn't even the one that selected Pelin. Instead, I was playing an unranked match and another player decided to pick it for the fourth deck after picking crow. I found this an interesting choice and decided to focus on seeing how this combo did against Crows rather than trying to use crow myself. I was still learning Druid King at that point (you can see me in the video almost miss a Chimera for a writ of coin, but I catch myself). So, I ignored the crow patron and tried to mostly just get rid of crow cards rather than buy them myself. I think I bought like 1 card just to deny it to the opponent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtclNtK88Y0

This was a while ago, but I was deleting some old videos and realized I had meant to discuss this combo at some point but then just never got around to it.

Unranked is a good place to practice unfamiliar strategies because you don't get that negative feeling at seeing such large amounts of points lost. Although really the only place to truly hone it super well is to move on to ranked.

Anyway, I'm not gonna say this is TOT at it's peak level of play or that tavern luck didn't play any factor because anyone that watches that can easily tell it did. Even when I didn't have DK to help me, I got to deny plenty of big cards through contract cards. That's also how I got my first Chimera. So, that played a big factor in things. Also, this is a late-night unranked match. This is not indicative of how a ultra-competitive ranked match would be. But I do think it's interesting to see how tavern churn is an underappreciated strength of the deck. And it is particularly a good option against crows. I hope this helps!

AnduinTryggva

I still think Crow needs a small nerf. I've played ToT from day 1 of release and since then surely hundreds of matches. I may not be capable of getting up to rank 1 but sufficiently to get to top 10%.

And Crow is still too snowballish.

And tavern control by Druid King is pretty limited when you don't get power cards before your opponent picx the 3+ card and 2g+ cards of Crow before you can. At this stage you basically are so behind that you can just give up as well.

AnduinTryggva

BTW the only strat that I found to counter Crow is to use Crow against my opponent who selected Crow. Then it is down to who gets the better crow cards first and thus pure tavern luck which evens the matchfield a bit than using an alternative one where it is not only about tavern luck but about huge tavern luck for oneself and bad tavern luch for the Crow spammer.

PinkApple

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

BTW the only strat that I found to counter Crow is to use Crow against my opponent who selected Crow. Then it is down to who gets the better crow cards first and thus pure tavern luck which evens the matchfield a bit than using an alternative one where it is not only about tavern luck but about huge tavern luck for oneself and bad tavern luch for the Crow spammer.

Putting bewilderment cards into your opponent's deck can break up their combo potential. If your opponent has 14 crow cards at that point obviously its too late But in general, if applied starting from turn 3-4 on turns when you have the extra economy. it can really ruin their deck. Even if they turn the bewilderments into writs their combo potential goes way down.

AnduinTryggva

PinkApple wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

BTW the only strat that I found to counter Crow is to use Crow against my opponent who selected Crow. Then it is down to who gets the better crow cards first and thus pure tavern luck which evens the matchfield a bit than using an alternative one where it is not only about tavern luck but about huge tavern luck for oneself and bad tavern luch for the Crow spammer.

Putting bewilderment cards into your opponent's deck can break up their combo potential. If your opponent has 14 crow cards at that point obviously its too late But in general, if applied starting from turn 3-4 on turns when you have the extra economy. it can really ruin their deck. Even if they turn the bewilderments into writs their combo potential goes way down.

I know but the 3g reduces your own potential to build a deck. It is only a valid strategy if by a fair amount of tavern luck you were able to secure a nice gold generating card. Otherwise you just hamper the opponent's strat without coming closer to your own objective one trifle bit.

DragonRacer

I'm starting to come around on the Crow annoyance. I got tired of Ranked reaching a level of impossibility for my level of skill, so I've been trying Unranked Casual because I really would like to enjoy playing this game again.

But match after match, I will buy a Tavern card only for it to be replaced with a Crow card for my opponent to scoop up first thing on their next hand. With no cards or patrons to allow me to get rid of it before ending my turn. To the point that I am now conceding when they get 4-5 Crow cards because it's already gonna be over.

Wasted an hour of my life last night queueing for Unranked Casual just to have Match #1, opponent gets all the Crow cards. Match # 2, different opponent also gets all the Crow cards. Match # 3, get same opponent from Match # 2, doing okay and then ESO poops me out to the main screen as a disconnect.

That was it. That was my "fun" night of ToT. It's like ZOS actively doesn't WANT me to queue for this mode anymore.

AnduinTryggva

Yes, I also now tend to just concede a match when my opponent could snatch two or three good cards in early game considering how snowballish the entire card game design is.

A guy just could by the 5g Hlaalu cards with additional patron interaction synergy within two turns at the fourth round or so. This is just insane and impossible to beat.

Jusey1

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Orgnum set is fine, it is the patron abuse potential that makes it one of the most hated decks.

Exactly, I wish they could just swap the power/gold so it's more about using 2 power for gold base on your deck total type of dealing (which makes more sense because pirates raiding for gold and what not). Would make it a lot less spam-able.

Fugus

I personally haven't played a multi-player game but have noticed that the updated AI makes it a point to snag a crow card in an instant if one drops.

My main way of dealing with it so far is by making sure not to use a card to clear a tavern card unless I have enough to purchase the most common ones to drop. So only risk a crow dropping by purchasing another card I actively want.

And if they purchase more than 2 crows, I will bewilder the crap out of them. Try to make sure to give them 2 bewilders for every 1 crow they get to help kill the combo potential. And if they turn it into a writ, then give them another unless I have the ability to purchase something I want.

The Moamer deck though really bugs me, not the cards so much as the patron. The moment it is chosen, I make sure to flip the patron to me even if I don't need it just to make sure if they flip it they get nothing as it is just going back to neutral while I get something when it comes back my way, otherwise I have had the NPC spam the crap out of that.

Those games where the crows only seem to come at the exact end of my turn when I can't do anything about it or the moment they purchase or move anything though and comes back to back, can't do anything to stop the vengeful RNG god which really doesn't feel too RNG recently.

Bat

This deck and the Orgnum deck are the worst decks, both lack finesse, both are tedious, both make for extremely boring matches.