Just nerf crow already

WitchyKiki

Crow is the most braindead cheap tactic in ToT. It's the only deck that negates all others; you see a purple card, it doesn't matter what deck you're playing you HAVE to pick it up. Pick up 2 good crow cards at the beginning (even one!) and you dominate the game. You can essentially just keep picking cards out of the tavern and cycling your deck, putting down all other cards and hitting all other patron's combos nonstop. If you get good RNG, you will literally play your whole deck. I just had a game where my opponent was at 17prestige and I hit 49. Crow+patron and he got to 50.

No deck causes me so much grief and fury to play because it's so braindead and it's also a deck you simply CANT risk to ignore on the tavern. Just make it that after a certain # of card pulls, thats it, NO MORE pulls. I'm sick of crow, worse is sitting there watching someone cycle their deck and take up the whole time while my turn takes 15 seconds. Most of the games I concede are crow. After a certain number of cards are picked, I know it's over. Even when I get all the crow cards, I find it braindead and infuriatingly boring. Don't get me started on crow+red eagle combo.

Everyone is losing their minds over Druid King, and after playing it, it aint that bad! You need a good amount of cards to combo them and to trigger that useless patron. You gotta know the other patrons and decks, and how to play your cards. Crow? No brain needed. Nerf it already.

To note, I do not mind loosing to a good opponent. I respect that! I love the game and love a challenge. Crow just isn't it.

tsaescishoeshiner

While I agree that Crow cards often feel like auto-picks because they're so naturally synergistic, I think playing them offers interesting strategies. I just finished a game where I only had 7 cards in my deck, 5 of which were Crow cards. It was fun to carefully pick when to draw and which combos to activate for a burst of prestige. They're by far my favorite way to win.

They've already doled out some cost nerfs to Crows, so maybe they could hit them with another one for the more expensive cards.

SeaGtGruff

Crow lovers, unite! Everyone form a line behind me; I get first shot at buying those Crow cards.

As I mentioned in another thread, Hlaalu and Crow are the two decks I always pick during a match, unless my NPC opponent picks one or both of them first. Crow in particular can be a good counter to other patrons.

Please, do not nerf Crow.

El_Borracho

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Crow lovers, unite! Everyone form a line behind me; I get first shot at buying those Crow cards.

As I mentioned in another thread, Hlaalu and Crow are the two decks I always pick during a match, unless my NPC opponent picks one or both of them first. Crow in particular can be a good counter to other patrons.

Please, do not nerf Crow.

Totally agree. Its the only deck I've found that can reliably squash an Orgnum spammer. And when you pair it with a deck like Ansei or Celarus, you can overwhelm you opponent. But it takes building the deck, not mindless, "See card, buy card."

Haven't played Druid King yet (console) but I hope nothing happens to Crow. Its fine the way it is

WitchyKiki

El_Borracho wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Crow lovers, unite! Everyone form a line behind me; I get first shot at buying those Crow cards.

As I mentioned in another thread, Hlaalu and Crow are the two decks I always pick during a match, unless my NPC opponent picks one or both of them first. Crow in particular can be a good counter to other patrons.

Please, do not nerf Crow.

Totally agree. Its the only deck I've found that can reliably squash an Orgnum spammer. And when you pair it with a deck like Ansei or Celarus, you can overwhelm you opponent. But it takes building the deck, not mindless, "See card, buy card."

Haven't played Druid King yet (console) but I hope nothing happens to Crow. Its fine the way it is

I do have to admit its a good counter to Orgnum spammers, but Orgnum patron in itself just needs to get adjusted as well. Any play that is compelling or you "have" to do, and doesn't have a realistic counter needs to get adjusted. Crow cards are always a must-pick which comes off as "compelled play" in my eyes, which makes crow braindead. Pick-crow-or-else is a gameplay I find irritating.

CGPsaint

If you see an opponent picking Crow cards, then you do have options for countering. You can purchase the cards yourself, or purchase cards to remove Crow cards from the tavern. I have lost very few games to people using Crow, and many more to people who know how to use Saint Pelin properly.

Ye_Olde_Crowe

I don‘t want to be nerfed…?

WitchyKiki

Ye_Olde_Crowe wrote: »

I don‘t want to be nerfed…?

lol all good I feel better today about crow.

NeKryXe

Why would you want to nerf the funniest way to counter Orgnum spammers?

I agree with you that it is the easiest decks, the reason I rarely pick it. But it's more fun than the dumb Orgnum deck which still is for me "most braindead cheap tactic in ToT".

WitchyKiki

NeKryXe wrote: »

Why would you want to nerf the funniest way to counter Orgnum spammers?

I agree with you that it is the easiest decks, the reason I rarely pick it. But it's more fun than the dumb Orgnum deck which still is for me "most braindead cheap tactic in ToT".

I suppose bc almost no one plays Orgnum I don't encounter much problems with it.

AnduinTryggva

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

While I agree that Crow cards often feel like auto-picks because they're so naturally synergistic, I think playing them offers interesting strategies. I just finished a game where I only had 7 cards in my deck, 5 of which were Crow cards. It was fun to carefully pick when to draw and which combos to activate for a burst of prestige. They're by far my favorite way to win.

They've already doled out some cost nerfs to Crows, so maybe they could hit them with another one for the more expensive cards.

To be honest I pick crow in most of the ranked matches because of its downhand winning characteristics. It is really THE one deck that can so easily outperform others with just tavern luck.

I've observed my own recent matches and if there is a match where I quickly concede during the first turns it is ENTIRELY due to the fact that my opponent was able to draw two or three good crow cards with me not being capable to do the same. It is really crow who is decisive so early on. So while I use constantly crow myself I really think it needs to be nerved.I come to believe that the issue is that so many crow cards synergize on the second crow card with giving an additional card from the pile. Maybe appart from the 6er and 5er that are just plusses all these plusses on the synergy side should require 3 cards. As 2nd level synergy it could maybe give 1 coin and 1 power instead. I think this could reduce a bit this op functionality of crow.

Bat

It needs some heavy nerfs for sure, single most abused deck and it's just plain obnoxious in its current iteration.

spartaxoxo

I actually see Pelin as the most abused deck personally. I see crow more as a newbie friendly strategy personally. It could maybe use some tweaks but I actually don't encounter a ton of high performing crow players. It's simple to execute but also not that hard to counter, especially with druid king's addition.
https://youtu.be/EitZRLt2G3w

sharquez

If you dont adapt your strategy to the flow of the game and understand how all the decks in the draft work you will lose. Crow can be a wincon/draw engine but it is not auto win.

I have thrashed crow comboers with Hlaalu patron strats, As a matter of fact most of my wins are from patron strats. I have also won by getting off silly crow combos. It rajiin and druid king are combo decks that each can act as either a win con or a defense against your opponents wincon.

It comes down to adapting your strat by, looking at your opponents cards, drafting smart and denying obvious combos. You can get there. each player has roughly the same chance to win. Yes the luck of the draw comes into play but its a card came thats what they are!

DragonRacer

Crow can be really easy to counter if the player turns the Duke too early. So long as you set yourself up to compete power-wise and aren’t looking to patron win, simply never touch the Duke yourself and watch the crow player with a sad sack of impotent coins towards the end.

I say this as a player who also both enjoys playing Crow when the cards go my way and hates playing against Crow when the opponent gets them all and it’s a 1.5 minute card-drawing festival. But more often than not, I see them turn the Duke early - I suspect thinking I will turn back either going for patron win/deny them patron win or to try and use my coins for power - and I simply deny them that. Doesn’t always work (no strategy is 100% guaranteed), but it does for me a lot.

Sheezabeast

I've seen so many people play Crows and struggle to make Points. They'll get a lot of gold but not have much worth spending it on polluting their deck. One downside to Crows is that you don't automatically get a steady roll of Points every turn. It's fair in that aspect.

phantasmalD

Crow has perfectly adequate power generation even without the patron power, it's like in 3rd or 4th place.
Like the cards are only slightly behind Pelin's. Compare Scratch to Archer's Volley, 4 cost 3 gold 2 power (combo2) vs 4cost 1 gold 3 power (combo2).

Most of it's power is also only locked behind combo 2/3, which is ridiculously easy to achieve when half of your cards have a draw+1 effect. Some of the bonuses could get bumped up a combo tier.

Crow deck has a roughly 50-50 resource distribution, 12 coin vs 10 power (in a non-upgraded deck, that is).
A pretty healthy middle ground, especially compared to Hlaalu's 21-1 or Pelin's 6-23.

It's worth noting that while Pelin has the highest Power values, like half of it's power generation is locked behind Rally and Armory (6 and 5 power respectively).
Both of which are easier to acquire and spam with a crow deck than any other. The only deck that can spam better is Red eagle, but it's harder to set up, imo.

And tbh I think that's the real problem; the issue is not really with the crow deck itself, but all those juicy S-tier cards with front-loaded value. Armory prob should be a combo 2 card, Grand Larceny have it's effects switched. etc.


Although I do have to say, draw +2 cards are inherently busted, that's been known since Pot of Greed. If two players play equal value cards, then the one who can cheat out a sixth card will win. That's why card games always put serious stipulations on draws, to make sure they are at most a 1-for-1 trade. Either by making you discard or kill a unit/spend resources or make your opponent(s) draw as well.
In the case of the crow deck this stipulation would be combo, but it's questionable if combo 2/3 is a good enough requirement.

Melzo

You need to add a ban deck from each player at the beginning of the game. I would ban this deck every game. It is practically impossible to play if the player is lucky with the opponent with purple cards. The whole deck is played every turn.

sharquez

Melzo wrote: »

You need to add a ban deck from each player at the beginning of the game. I would ban this deck every game. It is practically impossible to play if the player is lucky with the opponent with purple cards. The whole deck is played every turn.

As decks are earned content This is impossible to implement and would screw over new players. Not an option.

AnduinTryggva

Seriously, crow needs an urgent nerf. It is THE winning deck and it does not matter if other decks are present or not. Crow is the deck building equivalent to Orgnum spam and needs a nerf.

Of course then the only counter deck Rhajin needs a small nerf too.

I think the tweak is pretty simple to implement. Just require three crow cards to activate the draw of an additional card like it is done with the 6 gold crow card already.

AnduinTryggva

Also Crow shoud NOT generate any power. This is also a bad flaw of the entire set.

sharquez

The game is supposed to have winners and losers and not last forever. Sometimes the way the deck stacks up that's going to be you, and there is nothing you can do about it. If you can't handle that fact without coming in here to ask for nerfs because you are frustrated its probably time to take a break or reevaluate your mindset.

Druid and Rajhin although being combo decks in their own right can mess with or synergize with crow strats so next time you see a crow first pick try those maybe to see if they help?

Alternately Hlallu and Reach king or Orgnum can help enable patron victory strats which is my favorite. so you can out race them with that?

You can also try Pelin and Ansei/reach and just go aggro power strat to win/lose quick get the games over with.

Maybe with Necrom there will be a new anti combo deck?

The PTS pretty much has all the planned changes locked in so you wont be getting your wish so do what you can to improve your own quality of life regarding the game. You are unfortunately "screaming into the void" here.

Bat

This deck is entirely out of hand and needs some heavy nerfs ASAP.

AnduinTryggva

sharquez wrote: »

The game is supposed to have winners and losers and not last forever. Sometimes the way the deck stacks up that's going to be you, and there is nothing you can do about it. If you can't handle that fact without coming in here to ask for nerfs because you are frustrated its probably time to take a break or reevaluate your mindset.

Druid and Rajhin although being combo decks in their own right can mess with or synergize with crow strats so next time you see a crow first pick try those maybe to see if they help?

Alternately Hlallu and Reach king or Orgnum can help enable patron victory strats which is my favorite. so you can out race them with that?

You can also try Pelin and Ansei/reach and just go aggro power strat to win/lose quick get the games over with.

Maybe with Necrom there will be a new anti combo deck?

The PTS pretty much has all the planned changes locked in so you wont be getting your wish so do what you can to improve your own quality of life regarding the game. You are unfortunately "screaming into the void" here.

It does not matter what is in PTS at this moment. With this argument you could just discard any request, wheter related to ToT or any other aspect of the entire game.

Fact is that crow is that one deck that increases match win probability noticible provided that a very few key cards can be picked early on compared to other sets (Orgnum spam is another story). One or two early picks + cards plus one mediocre card from that deck leads to a head start for the picking player that extremely hard to catch up. Rhajin is just a destroyer but gives you nothing. Of course you know this.

And I play a lot and always try other approaches and analyse my opponent's strat. It is really consistent that with Crow win propability is much higher than with other decks provided I don't go for Orgnum spam which is the patron flipping equivalent to crow which means that both strats lead to matches decided in the early phases.

SeaGtGruff

Crow is one of my two go-to decks, the other being Hlaalu. Please don't nerf it!

I play exclusively against the Expert NPCs, and about the only time I ever lose a match is when the NPC is able to buy a few good Pelin cards during the first several moves and no matter what I try to do after that I can't seem to ever catch up. Not that I'd ever ask for Pelin to be nerfed, because I think it's fine the way it is.

Bat

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Crow is one of my two go-to decks, the other being Hlaalu. Please don't nerf it!

I play exclusively against the Expert NPCs, and about the only time I ever lose a match is when the NPC is able to buy a few good Pelin cards during the first several moves and no matter what I try to do after that I can't seem to ever catch up. Not that I'd ever ask for Pelin to be nerfed, because I think it's fine the way it is.

Pelin already was nerfed and is in a good and actually well balanced place now, unlike Duke which is in as bad a state balance wise as it was on launch. As far as I know, the only nerf it has had to date, was increasing the cost of its arguably most useless card (Scratch) from 3 gold, to 4 whole gold.

It's also not really pertinent to the discussion that you rely on the Duke deck to win against NPCs, since nothing bigger than regular NPC rewards are at stake for you. This discussion is about whether or not the Duke deck is unbalanced in PVP, and the general consensus is yes, it's very unbalanced.

AnduinTryggva

Absolutely. We have at the moment two decks (Orgnum and Crow) for which early picks are decisive.

Of course with other decks this can happen but this is much much rarer while with Orgnum and Crow this is consistently the case.

I don't spam Orgnum as it is the least fun strat unless Orgnum is enforced on me by my opponent.

When I am out for an easy win I always pick Crow and from two or three picks either by me or by my opponent I know what outcome the match will have.

As I said Orgnum needs a nerf in terms of power generation and/or cost so that players don't have an incentive to spam it early on.

Crow needs a nerf on the added card synergy and ideally reduce power output from Crow.

WitchyKiki

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Absolutely. We have at the moment two decks (Orgnum and Crow) for which early picks are decisive.

Of course with other decks this can happen but this is much much rarer while with Orgnum and Crow this is consistently the case.

I don't spam Orgnum as it is the least fun strat unless Orgnum is enforced on me by my opponent.

When I am out for an easy win I always pick Crow and from two or three picks either by me or by my opponent I know what outcome the match will have.

As I said Orgnum needs a nerf in terms of power generation and/or cost so that players don't have an incentive to spam it early on.

Crow needs a nerf on the added card synergy and ideally reduce power output from Crow.

I wouldnt waste your time trying to argue this further, truth is crow/red eagle spammers found a braindead RNG tactic and it can ignore all other mechanics, so they will continue to push for it to not be nerfed. Its why I have a jolly good laugh when my cards align, and I spam the hated cat.

spartaxoxo

WitchyKiki wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Absolutely. We have at the moment two decks (Orgnum and Crow) for which early picks are decisive.

Of course with other decks this can happen but this is much much rarer while with Orgnum and Crow this is consistently the case.

I don't spam Orgnum as it is the least fun strat unless Orgnum is enforced on me by my opponent.

When I am out for an easy win I always pick Crow and from two or three picks either by me or by my opponent I know what outcome the match will have.

As I said Orgnum needs a nerf in terms of power generation and/or cost so that players don't have an incentive to spam it early on.

Crow needs a nerf on the added card synergy and ideally reduce power output from Crow.

I wouldnt waste your time trying to argue this further, truth is crow/red eagle spammers found a braindead RNG tactic and it can ignore all other mechanics, so they will continue to push for it to not be nerfed. Its why I have a jolly good laugh when my cards align, and I spam the hated cat.

My general pick is Druid King, Red Eagle, and Hlallu. I also think obviously Druid King needs a nerf but I enjoy the deck. I don't think Crows needs a nerf. It's got really obvious counterplay and I seldom see it in competitive games. I mostly see it unranked and last I checked I won against it more often than other decks.

I do see a lot of Pelin and Rahjiin. Rahjiin seems to dominate the leaderboards. It seems rare I play comp without running into these decks. It makes me think it's the decks most in need of nerfs. But, only the devs can confirm that suspicion.

Anyway, I do think Crows+Red Eagle are an important counter to Rahjiin spam, and if they nerf Crow they'll need to also change Rahjiin.

AnduinTryggva

spartaxoxo wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Absolutely. We have at the moment two decks (Orgnum and Crow) for which early picks are decisive.

Of course with other decks this can happen but this is much much rarer while with Orgnum and Crow this is consistently the case.

I don't spam Orgnum as it is the least fun strat unless Orgnum is enforced on me by my opponent.

When I am out for an easy win I always pick Crow and from two or three picks either by me or by my opponent I know what outcome the match will have.

As I said Orgnum needs a nerf in terms of power generation and/or cost so that players don't have an incentive to spam it early on.

Crow needs a nerf on the added card synergy and ideally reduce power output from Crow.

I wouldnt waste your time trying to argue this further, truth is crow/red eagle spammers found a braindead RNG tactic and it can ignore all other mechanics, so they will continue to push for it to not be nerfed. Its why I have a jolly good laugh when my cards align, and I spam the hated cat.

My general pick is Druid King, Red Eagle, and Hlallu. I also think obviously Druid King needs a nerf but I enjoy the deck. I don't think Crows needs a nerf. It's got really obvious counterplay and I seldom see it in competitive games. I mostly see it unranked and last I checked I won against it more often than other decks.

I do see a lot of Pelin and Rahjiin. Rahjiin seems to dominate the leaderboards. It seems rare I play comp without running into these decks. It makes me think it's the decks most in need of nerfs. But, only the devs can confirm that suspicion.

Anyway, I do think Crows+Red Eagle are an important counter to Rahjiin spam, and if they nerf Crow they'll need to also change Rahjiin.

I don't think that you play a lot of competitive matches. Crow is the most picked deck in competitive matches and I play several ones per day. Each day.

WitchyKiki

spartaxoxo wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Absolutely. We have at the moment two decks (Orgnum and Crow) for which early picks are decisive.

Of course with other decks this can happen but this is much much rarer while with Orgnum and Crow this is consistently the case.

I don't spam Orgnum as it is the least fun strat unless Orgnum is enforced on me by my opponent.

When I am out for an easy win I always pick Crow and from two or three picks either by me or by my opponent I know what outcome the match will have.

As I said Orgnum needs a nerf in terms of power generation and/or cost so that players don't have an incentive to spam it early on.

Crow needs a nerf on the added card synergy and ideally reduce power output from Crow.

I wouldnt waste your time trying to argue this further, truth is crow/red eagle spammers found a braindead RNG tactic and it can ignore all other mechanics, so they will continue to push for it to not be nerfed. Its why I have a jolly good laugh when my cards align, and I spam the hated cat.

My general pick is Druid King, Red Eagle, and Hlallu. I also think obviously Druid King needs a nerf but I enjoy the deck. I don't think Crows needs a nerf. It's got really obvious counterplay and I seldom see it in competitive games. I mostly see it unranked and last I checked I won against it more often than other decks.

I do see a lot of Pelin and Rahjiin. Rahjiin seems to dominate the leaderboards. It seems rare I play comp without running into these decks. It makes me think it's the decks most in need of nerfs. But, only the devs can confirm that suspicion.

Anyway, I do think Crows+Red Eagle are an important counter to Rahjiin spam, and if they nerf Crow they'll need to also change Rahjiin.

Didn't we have this exact convo some threads ago? Not to be rude, but you're not changing my mind and I have no plans to change yours.

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

WitchyKiki wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

Absolutely. We have at the moment two decks (Orgnum and Crow) for which early picks are decisive.

Of course with other decks this can happen but this is much much rarer while with Orgnum and Crow this is consistently the case.

I don't spam Orgnum as it is the least fun strat unless Orgnum is enforced on me by my opponent.

When I am out for an easy win I always pick Crow and from two or three picks either by me or by my opponent I know what outcome the match will have.

As I said Orgnum needs a nerf in terms of power generation and/or cost so that players don't have an incentive to spam it early on.

Crow needs a nerf on the added card synergy and ideally reduce power output from Crow.

I wouldnt waste your time trying to argue this further, truth is crow/red eagle spammers found a braindead RNG tactic and it can ignore all other mechanics, so they will continue to push for it to not be nerfed. Its why I have a jolly good laugh when my cards align, and I spam the hated cat.

My general pick is Druid King, Red Eagle, and Hlallu. I also think obviously Druid King needs a nerf but I enjoy the deck. I don't think Crows needs a nerf. It's got really obvious counterplay and I seldom see it in competitive games. I mostly see it unranked and last I checked I won against it more often than other decks.

I do see a lot of Pelin and Rahjiin. Rahjiin seems to dominate the leaderboards. It seems rare I play comp without running into these decks. It makes me think it's the decks most in need of nerfs. But, only the devs can confirm that suspicion.

Anyway, I do think Crows+Red Eagle are an important counter to Rahjiin spam, and if they nerf Crow they'll need to also change Rahjiin.

I don't think that you play a lot of competitive matches. Crow is the most picked deck in competitive matches and I play several ones per day. Each day.

I have to agree here, I see crow picked quite a lot on competitive.