Why would you use Occult Overload after U36?

nokturnihs

Occult Overload has been one of the few globally available group pops for trash mobs outside of a couple PvP sets... The changes planned for it in U36 make it seem useless, not worth a slottable. It already had conditionals (proc on kill, small AOE pop, status effect required). ZOS is nerfing the crap out of it in the upcoming patch and not sure why anyone would waste the time after the change....

Anyone think the changes to OO are good? Or is this just another grind enhancement change that makes the game less fun and more grindy?

jaws343

They are nerfing it, but it will still be stronger than it was prior to U35. It is way too strong in its current form. In both PVP and PVE.

Necrotech_Master

not to mention ive been hearing many reports of occult overload causing even more door issues in dungeons if occult overload got the final killing blow of a mob before combat ended on a mandatory mob to progress the dungeon lol

i will probably still be using it on my pvp NB, because it could still be effective there with 5200 unresistable dmg, it wont hurt as much, but unresistable dmg still hurts lol

for pve im not sure, since it cant chain kill as easily, i dont know, but cant be sure without testing it, worse comes i just change the cp lol

Vulkunne

nokturnihs wrote: »

Occult Overload has been one of the few globally available group pops for trash mobs outside of a couple PvP sets... The changes planned for it in U36 make it seem useless, not worth a slottable. It already had conditionals (proc on kill, small AOE pop, status effect required). ZOS is nerfing the crap out of it in the upcoming patch and not sure why anyone would waste the time after the change....

Anyone think the changes to OO are good? Or is this just another grind enhancement change that makes the game less fun and more grindy?

I posted something about this regarding healing but anyways the problem is OO is way way too strong in PvP.

In other words, even tall builds with strong mitigation are dropping like domino's every time this thing goes. I'm talking dmg around 12.8k, 25.6k, 32.5k+... solely from OO by itself. Since OO became a thing PvP is all about bombing now and is no fun at all. It just feels like everyone is dying when there is no real reason for it, especially since unfort its the players with weak health and armor who are the main catalyst.

Necrotech_Master

Vulkunne wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

Occult Overload has been one of the few globally available group pops for trash mobs outside of a couple PvP sets... The changes planned for it in U36 make it seem useless, not worth a slottable. It already had conditionals (proc on kill, small AOE pop, status effect required). ZOS is nerfing the crap out of it in the upcoming patch and not sure why anyone would waste the time after the change....

Anyone think the changes to OO are good? Or is this just another grind enhancement change that makes the game less fun and more grindy?

I posted something about this regarding healing but anyways the problem is OO is way way too strong in PvP.

In other words, even tall builds with strong mitigation are dropping like domino's every time this thing goes. I'm talking dmg around 12.8k, 25.6k, 32.5k+... solely from OO by itself. Since OO became a thing PvP is all about bombing now and is no fun at all. It just feels like everyone is dying when there is no real reason for it, especially since unfort its the players with weak health and armor who are the main catalyst.

i think a lot of that is the ability for it to chain kill right now, like VD, its not necessarily the high dmg, but the ability to chain proc and stack with something like VD (which adds a ton of dmg on top of that)

VD + plague + occult i think will still be good after the nerf, it just wont be as heavily carried by occult

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I dont pretend to know if they got the nerf correct, but one was certainly warranted. It was too powerful in PVP.

deleted221205-002626

Why they dont just change THE OBVIOUS on it from oblivion damage to magic damage or something so its still ok for pve and greatly lessened for pvp. They need more rocket scientists in the office!

jaws343

sinnereso wrote: »

Why they dont just change THE OBVIOUS on it from oblivion damage to magic damage or something so its still ok for pve and greatly lessened for pvp. They need more rocket scientists in the office!

That would make it likely weaker in PVE than it is now. Since mobs have resistances, and it is very unlikely, in a situation where this CP is even remotely useful, you have full penetration against the mobs. Since oblivion damage ignores all resistances, you aren't needing to debuff each individual enemy to make this useful.

deleted221205-002626

jaws343 wrote: »

sinnereso wrote: »

Why they dont just change THE OBVIOUS on it from oblivion damage to magic damage or something so its still ok for pve and greatly lessened for pvp. They need more rocket scientists in the office!

That would make it likely weaker in PVE than it is now. Since mobs have resistances, and it is very unlikely, in a situation where this CP is even remotely useful, you have full penetration against the mobs. Since oblivion damage ignores all resistances, you aren't needing to debuff each individual enemy to make this useful.

It would still have a greater impact on pvp as resistances are generally higher and better than the u36 plan.

jaws343

sinnereso wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

sinnereso wrote: »

Why they dont just change THE OBVIOUS on it from oblivion damage to magic damage or something so its still ok for pve and greatly lessened for pvp. They need more rocket scientists in the office!

That would make it likely weaker in PVE than it is now. Since mobs have resistances, and it is very unlikely, in a situation where this CP is even remotely useful, you have full penetration against the mobs. Since oblivion damage ignores all resistances, you aren't needing to debuff each individual enemy to make this useful.

It would still have a greater impact on pvp as resistances are generally higher and better than the u36 plan.

Sure, but the U36 plan seems like a decent spot for both PVP and PVE. Swapping to non oblivion damage would hurt both far more than this nerf will.

Finedaible

I think the 1s cooldown on the effect is what will kill its use the most since that also prevents it from chain-reacting. It's still geared mostly for PvP but like many things ZoS chose to make it mediocre across the board instead of leaving it specialized.

Dangranma_Burgrukgad

nokturnihs wrote: »

Anyone think the changes to OO are good? Or is this just another grind enhancement change that makes the game less fun and more grindy?

I think they should double the damage and the range, It's such a skillfull gamplay mechanic, only very good players are able to use it and so they should be rewarded.

BahometZ

In b4 they will never fix the dungeon door issues created by Occult Overload proccing on final kill, with the necessary nerf, I just wouldn't run it anymore.

nokturnihs

It may be overpowered in PvP but considering most of the OP sets reside within the PvP realm I'm not sure that matters. They did nerf dark convergence but VD, Plaguebreak are still strong AF. I will concede bombing is a problem in PvP but it's become a design focus. Best bombing sets in the game: PvP. Best bombing skill(s) in the game: PvP. I freely admit WHEN I could get it to proc in my very limited PvP time it was good, however I found it most useful in PvE where it would simply take the sick out of the grind a little bit. I'm not sure why they couldn't simply add the timer "against players". As mainly a PvE players it gets tiring to see more grind come out of these nerfs. That's my main gripe about it I guess. Pushing more grind back into casual PvE content....

Happy for you PvP guys getting smeared by it I guess... Not sure how that tracks against permablock DK and templars that just take no damage ever no matter what you throw at them.... Still feel this game would do a lot better for ZOS separately balancing skills for PvE and PvP...

Dangranma_Burgrukgad

nokturnihs wrote: »

As mainly a PvE players it gets tiring to see more grind come out of these nerfs. That's my main gripe about it I guess. Pushing more grind back into casual PvE content....

The CP is designed for PvP, look at the damage type.
In PvE is just ridicolous how strong it is against groups of trash mobs, I can't understand why PvErs love soo much this kind of zero effort nukes in an already soo easy content.

remosito

make oo dmg only non player enemies...

FrancisCrawford

I've barely considered running it in PvE because it's useless against many bosses and weak against most others.

What have I been missing?

jaws343

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

I've barely considered running it in PvE because it's useless against many bosses and weak against most others.

What have I been missing?

Apart from the apparent door issue, it is fairly nice for soloing dungeons. As you are guaranteed to have good mob concentrations and with something like WoE down, you can get a fairly decent chain detonation of it. I've had like 50K+ worth of damage proc on a group of mobs. Really though, it shaves like 1-2 seconds off a pull. So it isn't like it is really necessary, just some nice flavor.

TechMaybeHic

Nerf seems like a fair number to me in PvP. My only concern is it being OP is often the only way to dent the mass tank meta. Get 1 down and it softens the rest

Ankael07

People complain about unkillable tanks then ask for a nerf to one of the few things that kill said tanks. Now we will see more tanks around because they can sit under keep flags without worrying about NPCs proccing Occult

Iriidius

Occult Overload is definitely designed for pvp, the Oblivion dmg ignores battle spirit, resistance, dodge, block, mistform and all other mitigation. Only players use this mitigation, npcs dont. The resistance of npcs is usually completely negated by tank armor reduce or solo dd penetration. 12k dmg in PvE isnt much and i have heard oblivion dmg cant crit what is also bad for PvE, so the cp is almost useless in PvE. They should prevent it from proccing on npc death, too often Players get killed because 2 guards standing beneath them get killed, only 2 guards are enaugh and usually it is used against outnumbered defenders.

FrankonPC

The weird thing is oblivion damage has always been one of those unfavorable things in ESO and they gave an almost 13k proc condition that can easily proc on npcs.

If a group is taking a keep, I can't fight them on the flags anymore because occult will kill me when they kill the ads. If a group larger than myself tries to take a resource I'm defending, I can't defend on the resource because of the chain kill capabilities of occult.

The damage that it currently provides and how it easily chains with things like plaguebreak on npcs fundamentally changes how you consider defending a keep. I'm surprised it lasted this long to be honest.

nokturnihs

MrLasagna wrote: »

nokturnihs wrote: »

As mainly a PvE players it gets tiring to see more grind come out of these nerfs. That's my main gripe about it I guess. Pushing more grind back into casual PvE content....

The CP is designed for PvP, look at the damage type.
In PvE is just ridicolous how strong it is against groups of trash mobs, I can't understand why PvErs love soo much this kind of zero effort nukes in an already soo easy content.

Well... For me it's a combination of things - I play ESO to deal (mentally) with the physical issues my disability causes and that same disability makes it fairly effort intensive over time, especially since U35 made basic fights against trash mobs that much harder.

I realize that's my personal answer but there's tons of ways people enjoy the game.

I don't enjoy PvP myself because my body doesn't really let me be very competitive unless I'm using those "zero effort nuke" builds - then i can at least contribute (if poorly most the time) to BG Matches and the like. I realize OO was mostly over performing in cyrodiil btw. Some of us can't or don't like "sweating it out" though... Not everything needs to be Dark Souls or competitive either... Different people, different things, none of it's wrong...

I'd really like to see PvP conditionals applied to MOST skills/sets in the game. It would be a win I think for everyone because then PvPers wouldn't suffer when a PvE change is made that burns you but not them, vice versa. I doubt ZOS will do that, it takes a little more effort than they seem willing to invest at the moment and they don't seem too interested in player feedback anyway but... It would probably be a great investment of developer time in my opinion...

Dr_Con

better question is why they decided to make it oblivion damage.

you get few sources of oblivion damage, one of which is a glyph and the other is an underwhelming 5 pc set, then you get this giant source out of nowhere that requires you to kill a weakling to proc it.

Sometimes I swear it feels like VD isn't being mitigated at all also. As in- two people will die next to me and I'll take 24k damage, and I'll be at resist cap on a tank build as well as being a dark elf, I should be able to block a lot of this damage. I guess it crits?

jaws343

Dr_Con wrote: »

better question is why they decided to make it oblivion damage.

you get few sources of oblivion damage, one of which is a glyph and the other is an underwhelming 5 pc set, then you get this giant source out of nowhere that requires you to kill a weakling to proc it.

Sometimes I swear it feels like VD isn't being mitigated at all also. As in- two people will die next to me and I'll take 24k damage, and I'll be at resist cap on a tank build as well as being a dark elf, I should be able to block a lot of this damage. I guess it crits?

It was already oblivion damage. They just buffed it absurdly.

Finedaible

I like the concept and the option of oblivion damage because the tank meta will forever be a thing in PvP. However I think they have been going about it the wrong way by making all single-target sources of Oblivion damage exceedingly weak up to this point by subjecting them to health scaling (Decrease Health enchant, Knight Slayer, Sload's Semblance) and then introducing a VERY strong AOE option that is NOT subject to any health scaling in the form of Occult Overload; It should be the other way around with stronger single target and weaker AoE. Even with this nerf Occult Overload already does more damage than those other options. An enemy player would need to have 100k hp for Knight Slayer to reach its cap of 8000 for example, and at that point I doubt the set would help you much lol. The % hp scaling on oblivion damage should be adjusted slightly upwards imo, or make it punish things stacking absurd resistances a bit more.

YandereGirlfriend

Finedaible wrote: »

I like the concept and the option of oblivion damage because the tank meta will forever be a thing in PvP. However I think they have been going about it the wrong way by making all single-target sources of Oblivion damage exceedingly weak up to this point by subjecting them to health scaling (Decrease Health enchant, Knight Slayer, Sload's Semblance) and then introducing a VERY strong AOE option that is NOT subject to any health scaling in the form of Occult Overload; It should be the other way around with stronger single target and weaker AoE. Even with this nerf Occult Overload already does more damage than those other options. An enemy player would need to have 100k hp for Knight Slayer to reach its cap of 8000 for example, and at that point I doubt the set would help you much lol. The % hp scaling on oblivion damage should be adjusted slightly upwards imo, or make it punish things stacking absurd resistances a bit more.

Definitely.

I've heard tell of a time (apparently right before I started playing during mid-Summerset) when Oblivion Damage and Sload's were both wickedly OP but they have WAY over-corrected in the opposite direction, nerfing it into Oblivion itself (ironic). Since I have been playing, Oblivion Damage has (outside of OO...) never been worth using.

Ramping up the health-scaling would work wonders. TBH, I'm not even sure why some of these sets are capped - like, if you're cheesing Health-stacking that much you sort of deserve it, IMO (not that anyone is currently maxing out these sets).

Finedaible

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

I like the concept and the option of oblivion damage because the tank meta will forever be a thing in PvP. However I think they have been going about it the wrong way by making all single-target sources of Oblivion damage exceedingly weak up to this point by subjecting them to health scaling (Decrease Health enchant, Knight Slayer, Sload's Semblance) and then introducing a VERY strong AOE option that is NOT subject to any health scaling in the form of Occult Overload; It should be the other way around with stronger single target and weaker AoE. Even with this nerf Occult Overload already does more damage than those other options. An enemy player would need to have 100k hp for Knight Slayer to reach its cap of 8000 for example, and at that point I doubt the set would help you much lol. The % hp scaling on oblivion damage should be adjusted slightly upwards imo, or make it punish things stacking absurd resistances a bit more.

Definitely.

I've heard tell of a time (apparently right before I started playing during mid-Summerset) when Oblivion Damage and Sload's were both wickedly OP but they have WAY over-corrected in the opposite direction, nerfing it into Oblivion itself (ironic). Since I have been playing, Oblivion Damage has (outside of OO...) never been worth using.

Ramping up the health-scaling would work wonders. TBH, I'm not even sure why some of these sets are capped - like, if you're cheesing Health-stacking that much you sort of deserve it, IMO (not that anyone is currently maxing out these sets).

The caps were to keep oblivion damage from being overpowered in PvE if I remember correctly which makes sense when boss hp is in the millions. Sload's was admittedly op af back then, but it was also an un-dodgeable projectile I think and it could also proc itself or some bs. This was also before the 'proc sets can't proc other sets' rule. A lot of weird but broken things about it back then but like always they nerfed all aspects of it while leaving nothing viable.

nokturnihs

For occult overload specifically how about just have them detonate for 10-20% of their max life? A 60k mob/player would deal 6-12k. A 20k trash mob/player for 2-4k. Gets to be silly in some cases - like trash mobs detonating for 12-24k as boss adds or bosses detonating the world at 100k+ but probably better balanced for PvP - and cut out the cool down garbage. As is ZOS it's gonna be cut down to useless if you don't fix it...

Necrotech_Master

Dr_Con wrote: »

better question is why they decided to make it oblivion damage.

you get few sources of oblivion damage, one of which is a glyph and the other is an underwhelming 5 pc set, then you get this giant source out of nowhere that requires you to kill a weakling to proc it.

Sometimes I swear it feels like VD isn't being mitigated at all also. As in- two people will die next to me and I'll take 24k damage, and I'll be at resist cap on a tank build as well as being a dark elf, I should be able to block a lot of this damage. I guess it crits?

VD can crit, while occult cannot (nothing oblivion dmg can crit lol)

thats actually the biggest problem with most sets that do oblivion dmg, the hard dmg cap + inability to crit

when all of the oblivion dmg sets were changed to be % hp scaled, they included a hard cap on dmg (which likely wont be reached in pvp though as the enemy needs at least 100k hp to reach the cap) and they made it so that oblivion dmg cannot crit

i feel like they made the hard caps on oblivion too low or the % hp scaling too low

in pvp nobody has enough health to make the %hp scaled dmg deal enough to really matter and in most cases is still weaker than other sets

in pve its absurdly easy to reach the hard cap on oblivion since it caps out at 100k hp, and like 99% of all npc mobs have more hp than that, by huge margins

so sload for example, is 3% hp dmg per tick

in pvp the avg person has 25-35k hp which is only about 1/4 to 1/3 of where the hard oblivion cap is which puts its dmg at under 1000 per sec (which right now would actually be stronger than most dots in pvp due to the U35 dot nerfs lol)

in pve, almost every enemy has more than 100k hp, which means sload is hitting for its hard cap of 3000 per tick, which sounds nice until you realize that it cannot crit, and its not taking into account any self buffs, and this set only really works single target

Finedaible

That's why I think Oblivion damage should scale off resistances instead of HP since in PvE there is a hard cap on resistances but in PvP tanks will generally stack it much higher.