Warden Changes: v8.2.2

ESO_Nightingale

Yiko wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Isn't that Chilled scaling going to be extremely oppressive on Magden in PVP when using Destructive Clench with Master's Ice Staff (or maybe even w/o Master's Ice Staff)? The Master Destruction staffs and Destructive Clench were reworked to not be used as spammables, but having Chilled as a guaranteed proc on hit would essentially make this ability a spammable that also: roots the target, applies Major Maim, applies Minor Maim, and gives the caster 600 SD w/ Master's Ice on top of the 12% damage boost from the Warden passive. That sounds extremely oppressive and overloaded, considering it's already fairly broken on Live in terms of value/utility.
Maybe I'm overestimating the damage, so I'll check the actual numbers when the PTS build editor is updated, but this is definitely a concern of mine.

Hi, you give the damage from Chilled scaling way too much credit. We are talking about up to ~2k damage proc on high damage builds. Even with this damage, Destructive Clench damage is way too low to be a functional spammable. On the other hand, the other morph just crossed the barrier of becoming a very competitive spammable to force pulse/ vamp spammable. One of the reasons players never liked this skill as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile. This aspect of the skill is still an issue for some players. You have to remember that magden biggest problem was always the lack of an execute skill and therefor the ability to really land the killing blow. Offensive Magdens can't afford to sacrifice damage for defense/utility. Master ice staff builds could be effective for BGs, but I don't see this trend overshadowing Stamdens in cyrodiil. DB+SA+Spin2Win, just way stronger(Can kill a group of players in one combo).

That’s good to hear. Warden survivability is already pretty overtuned in general, especially considering how easy it is. I didn’t think a bunch of magdens running around spamming roots and major/minor maim + competitive damage on top of that ridiculous survivability would be conducive to healthy play and counterplay. I mean the morph on live is probably too much as is, but still, good to hear the chilled proc won’t be contributing to oppressive damage on top of everything else.
I still think the devs missed their mark with most of these warden passive changes and that stamden’s offense isn’t being properly considered for this passive reassessment

agreed. only glacial is good.

Firstmep

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Isn't that Chilled scaling going to be extremely oppressive on Magden in PVP when using Destructive Clench with Master's Ice Staff (or maybe even w/o Master's Ice Staff)? The Master Destruction staffs and Destructive Clench were reworked to not be used as spammables, but having Chilled as a guaranteed proc on hit would essentially make this ability a spammable that also: roots the target, applies Major Maim, applies Minor Maim, and gives the caster 600 SD w/ Master's Ice on top of the 12% damage boost from the Warden passive. That sounds extremely oppressive and overloaded, considering it's already fairly broken on Live in terms of value/utility.
Maybe I'm overestimating the damage, so I'll check the actual numbers when the PTS build editor is updated, but this is definitely a concern of mine.

Hi, you give the damage from Chilled scaling way too much credit. We are talking about up to ~2k damage proc on high damage builds. Even with this damage, Destructive Clench damage is way too low to be a functional spammable. On the other hand, the other morph just crossed the barrier of becoming a very competitive spammable to force pulse/ vamp spammable. One of the reasons players never liked this skill as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile. This aspect of the skill is still an issue for some players. You have to remember that magden biggest problem was always the lack of an execute skill and therefor the ability to really land the killing blow. Offensive Magdens can't afford to sacrifice damage for defense/utility. Master ice staff builds could be effective for BGs, but I don't see this trend overshadowing Stamdens in cyrodiil. DB+SA+Spin2Win, just way stronger(Can kill a group of players in one combo).

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

ESO_Nightingale

Firstmep wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Isn't that Chilled scaling going to be extremely oppressive on Magden in PVP when using Destructive Clench with Master's Ice Staff (or maybe even w/o Master's Ice Staff)? The Master Destruction staffs and Destructive Clench were reworked to not be used as spammables, but having Chilled as a guaranteed proc on hit would essentially make this ability a spammable that also: roots the target, applies Major Maim, applies Minor Maim, and gives the caster 600 SD w/ Master's Ice on top of the 12% damage boost from the Warden passive. That sounds extremely oppressive and overloaded, considering it's already fairly broken on Live in terms of value/utility.
Maybe I'm overestimating the damage, so I'll check the actual numbers when the PTS build editor is updated, but this is definitely a concern of mine.

Hi, you give the damage from Chilled scaling way too much credit. We are talking about up to ~2k damage proc on high damage builds. Even with this damage, Destructive Clench damage is way too low to be a functional spammable. On the other hand, the other morph just crossed the barrier of becoming a very competitive spammable to force pulse/ vamp spammable. One of the reasons players never liked this skill as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile. This aspect of the skill is still an issue for some players. You have to remember that magden biggest problem was always the lack of an execute skill and therefor the ability to really land the killing blow. Offensive Magdens can't afford to sacrifice damage for defense/utility. Master ice staff builds could be effective for BGs, but I don't see this trend overshadowing Stamdens in cyrodiil. DB+SA+Spin2Win, just way stronger(Can kill a group of players in one combo).

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

there's counters to aoe dots and immobilises that are often utilised anyway, if you didn't get out of it before, chilled isn't really the thing that's killing you. the real problem is the 10% increased damage when using an ice staff. chilled isn't the problem here, this change is really allowing frost damage builds to thrive in pve due to the procs over the course of a long fight.

Caribou77

"One of the reasons players never liked this skill [Frost Reach] as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile."

Agree ^^

As a PVP Magden, I've dropped my Master's Ice Staff and Frost Reach for this very reason. Frost Reach gets dodged more than 50% of the time.

There is only one ranged spammable magicka skill I have found that hits most of the time (<80%) in PVP, and I'm honestly afraid to state what it is for fear it will be nerfed. It's not a great skill (doesn't do much damage), but, when you consider the alternatives are all dodged more often than not, it leaves no choice.

Remember that feeling you got the first time someone dodged three of your cliff racers in a row (PVP, remember), and you thought it must be a bug? Then you switched to you MagSorc, and all of your crystal frags got dodged... and you started wondering if it has something to do with the server architecture and PVP, or if it is intended...

And then you stopped wondering.

GusTheWizard

Firstmep wrote: »

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

I forgot get were it was stated but I know that you can only proc a status effect once every second per target, so even if you have three frost dots active on a target you’ll still only hit them with chilled once per second, it’s really not that oppressive.

Mr_Stach

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

I forgot get were it was stated but I know that you can only proc a status effect once every second per target, so even if you have three frost dots active on a target you’ll still only hit them with chilled once per second, it’s really not that oppressive.

I haven't been able to find any indication of Chilled having a CD anywhere, if anyone wants to correct me fine.

But from our tests on Warden we can clearly see there is no CD:

Zooming in on the important bit:


Now this is isn't saying it's going to be oppressive, I don't really think it will, as you build a bit more defensive in PvP, so the effectiveness in PvP will go down since it is tied to W/S Damage. Just my own thoughts.

Lughlongarm

Firstmep wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Isn't that Chilled scaling going to be extremely oppressive on Magden in PVP when using Destructive Clench with Master's Ice Staff (or maybe even w/o Master's Ice Staff)? The Master Destruction staffs and Destructive Clench were reworked to not be used as spammables, but having Chilled as a guaranteed proc on hit would essentially make this ability a spammable that also: roots the target, applies Major Maim, applies Minor Maim, and gives the caster 600 SD w/ Master's Ice on top of the 12% damage boost from the Warden passive. That sounds extremely oppressive and overloaded, considering it's already fairly broken on Live in terms of value/utility.
Maybe I'm overestimating the damage, so I'll check the actual numbers when the PTS build editor is updated, but this is definitely a concern of mine.

Hi, you give the damage from Chilled scaling way too much credit. We are talking about up to ~2k damage proc on high damage builds. Even with this damage, Destructive Clench damage is way too low to be a functional spammable. On the other hand, the other morph just crossed the barrier of becoming a very competitive spammable to force pulse/ vamp spammable. One of the reasons players never liked this skill as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile. This aspect of the skill is still an issue for some players. You have to remember that magden biggest problem was always the lack of an execute skill and therefor the ability to really land the killing blow. Offensive Magdens can't afford to sacrifice damage for defense/utility. Master ice staff builds could be effective for BGs, but I don't see this trend overshadowing Stamdens in cyrodiil. DB+SA+Spin2Win, just way stronger(Can kill a group of players in one combo).

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

Procing chills every sec is quite challenging, even for optimal build, not to mention several chills per sec(I'm talking about real targets nit dummies). But I agree, Magden were quite good at BGs for a while(while not that popular) and now they are even better.
Not sure if this will make them oppressive or OP. Players are quite tanky nowadays as it is, so death by 1000 cuts build, don't really feel effective. Not to mention that snare immunity skills got huge buffs last patch and Mara's Balm completely shunts down these kind of builds.

Lughlongarm

Caribou77 wrote: »

"One of the reasons players never liked this skill [Frost Reach] as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile."

Agree ^^

As a PVP Magden, I've dropped my Master's Ice Staff and Frost Reach for this very reason. Frost Reach gets dodged more than 50% of the time.

There is only one ranged spammable magicka skill I have found that hits most of the time (<80%) in PVP, and I'm honestly afraid to state what it is for fear it will be nerfed. It's not a great skill (doesn't do much damage), but, when you consider the alternatives are all dodged more often than not, it leaves no choice.

Remember that feeling you got the first time someone dodged three of your cliff racers in a row (PVP, remember), and you thought it must be a bug? Then you switched to you MagSorc, and all of your crystal frags got dodged... and you started wondering if it has something to do with the server architecture and PVP, or if it is intended...

And then you stopped wondering.

I think I can guess which skill you are using ^^
But many Magdens play close and personal regardless. so Destructive Clench/Destructive Reach can still be highly effective.

Lughlongarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Isn't that Chilled scaling going to be extremely oppressive on Magden in PVP when using Destructive Clench with Master's Ice Staff (or maybe even w/o Master's Ice Staff)? The Master Destruction staffs and Destructive Clench were reworked to not be used as spammables, but having Chilled as a guaranteed proc on hit would essentially make this ability a spammable that also: roots the target, applies Major Maim, applies Minor Maim, and gives the caster 600 SD w/ Master's Ice on top of the 12% damage boost from the Warden passive. That sounds extremely oppressive and overloaded, considering it's already fairly broken on Live in terms of value/utility.
Maybe I'm overestimating the damage, so I'll check the actual numbers when the PTS build editor is updated, but this is definitely a concern of mine.

Hi, you give the damage from Chilled scaling way too much credit. We are talking about up to ~2k damage proc on high damage builds. Even with this damage, Destructive Clench damage is way too low to be a functional spammable. On the other hand, the other morph just crossed the barrier of becoming a very competitive spammable to force pulse/ vamp spammable. One of the reasons players never liked this skill as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile. This aspect of the skill is still an issue for some players. You have to remember that magden biggest problem was always the lack of an execute skill and therefor the ability to really land the killing blow. Offensive Magdens can't afford to sacrifice damage for defense/utility. Master ice staff builds could be effective for BGs, but I don't see this trend overshadowing Stamdens in cyrodiil. DB+SA+Spin2Win, just way stronger(Can kill a group of players in one combo).

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

there's counters to aoe dots and immobilises that are often utilised anyway, if you didn't get out of it before, chilled isn't really the thing that's killing you. the real problem is the 10% increased damage when using an ice staff. chilled isn't the problem here, this change is really allowing frost damage builds to thrive in pve due to the procs over the course of a long fight.

I get your point about not liking the ice staff buff passive and I can relate, but on this point I don't think you are correct. If the magden is incentivized to use frost damage spells regardless(for the chill procs), the new change to the ice staff passive is a nerf. Before I could just go lighting staff front bar and get 10% buff from my passive+ 8% from my staff on my AOES. 18% total. The new shiny toy for Magdens is definitely the chill procs, not sure how effective it will actually be in PvP.

ESO_Nightingale

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Isn't that Chilled scaling going to be extremely oppressive on Magden in PVP when using Destructive Clench with Master's Ice Staff (or maybe even w/o Master's Ice Staff)? The Master Destruction staffs and Destructive Clench were reworked to not be used as spammables, but having Chilled as a guaranteed proc on hit would essentially make this ability a spammable that also: roots the target, applies Major Maim, applies Minor Maim, and gives the caster 600 SD w/ Master's Ice on top of the 12% damage boost from the Warden passive. That sounds extremely oppressive and overloaded, considering it's already fairly broken on Live in terms of value/utility.
Maybe I'm overestimating the damage, so I'll check the actual numbers when the PTS build editor is updated, but this is definitely a concern of mine.

Hi, you give the damage from Chilled scaling way too much credit. We are talking about up to ~2k damage proc on high damage builds. Even with this damage, Destructive Clench damage is way too low to be a functional spammable. On the other hand, the other morph just crossed the barrier of becoming a very competitive spammable to force pulse/ vamp spammable. One of the reasons players never liked this skill as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile. This aspect of the skill is still an issue for some players. You have to remember that magden biggest problem was always the lack of an execute skill and therefor the ability to really land the killing blow. Offensive Magdens can't afford to sacrifice damage for defense/utility. Master ice staff builds could be effective for BGs, but I don't see this trend overshadowing Stamdens in cyrodiil. DB+SA+Spin2Win, just way stronger(Can kill a group of players in one combo).

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

there's counters to aoe dots and immobilises that are often utilised anyway, if you didn't get out of it before, chilled isn't really the thing that's killing you. the real problem is the 10% increased damage when using an ice staff. chilled isn't the problem here, this change is really allowing frost damage builds to thrive in pve due to the procs over the course of a long fight.

I get your point about not liking the ice staff buff passive and I can relate, but on this point I don't think you are correct. If the magden is incentivized to use frost damage spells regardless(for the chill procs), the new change to the ice staff passive is a nerf. Before I could just go lighting staff front bar and get 10% buff from my passive+ 8% from my staff on my AOES. 18% total. The new shiny toy for Magdens is definitely the chill procs, not sure how effective it will actually be in PvP.

10% increased deep fissure and spammable damage is a lot. The chilled damage will definitely be nicer, but as it's a scaling bonus thatll be effected by battle spirit, i definitely see it being overshadowed by raw burst from piercing cold. Provided it remains that way.

Lughlongarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Isn't that Chilled scaling going to be extremely oppressive on Magden in PVP when using Destructive Clench with Master's Ice Staff (or maybe even w/o Master's Ice Staff)? The Master Destruction staffs and Destructive Clench were reworked to not be used as spammables, but having Chilled as a guaranteed proc on hit would essentially make this ability a spammable that also: roots the target, applies Major Maim, applies Minor Maim, and gives the caster 600 SD w/ Master's Ice on top of the 12% damage boost from the Warden passive. That sounds extremely oppressive and overloaded, considering it's already fairly broken on Live in terms of value/utility.
Maybe I'm overestimating the damage, so I'll check the actual numbers when the PTS build editor is updated, but this is definitely a concern of mine.

Hi, you give the damage from Chilled scaling way too much credit. We are talking about up to ~2k damage proc on high damage builds. Even with this damage, Destructive Clench damage is way too low to be a functional spammable. On the other hand, the other morph just crossed the barrier of becoming a very competitive spammable to force pulse/ vamp spammable. One of the reasons players never liked this skill as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile. This aspect of the skill is still an issue for some players. You have to remember that magden biggest problem was always the lack of an execute skill and therefor the ability to really land the killing blow. Offensive Magdens can't afford to sacrifice damage for defense/utility. Master ice staff builds could be effective for BGs, but I don't see this trend overshadowing Stamdens in cyrodiil. DB+SA+Spin2Win, just way stronger(Can kill a group of players in one combo).

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

there's counters to aoe dots and immobilises that are often utilised anyway, if you didn't get out of it before, chilled isn't really the thing that's killing you. the real problem is the 10% increased damage when using an ice staff. chilled isn't the problem here, this change is really allowing frost damage builds to thrive in pve due to the procs over the course of a long fight.

I get your point about not liking the ice staff buff passive and I can relate, but on this point I don't think you are correct. If the magden is incentivized to use frost damage spells regardless(for the chill procs), the new change to the ice staff passive is a nerf. Before I could just go lighting staff front bar and get 10% buff from my passive+ 8% from my staff on my AOES. 18% total. The new shiny toy for Magdens is definitely the chill procs, not sure how effective it will actually be in PvP.

10% increased deep fissure and spammable damage is a lot. The chilled damage will definitely be nicer, but as it's a scaling bonus thatll be effected by battle spirit, i definitely see it being overshadowed by raw burst from piercing cold. Provided it remains that way.

Piercing cold also boosted DF before the change and many of the Maghden spammables(
Destructive Touch/ Cliff racer/ Elemental Weapon/ Arterial Burst etc...) and few ulties as well like Soul Strike/
ice comet/ Northern Storm etc... I had this bonus before with the option to get weapon damage passives on top, where is the boost you talking about? Magdens are not getting any damage boost from this change. This is a way to not share this passive with Stamdens and hybrid builds playing with different weapons other than ice staff, that's all. You can say that Ice staff users are more flexible with the skills they can take, sure. But if you want to maximize the effect from the chill proc, you will go with ice damage regardless(and deep fissure, sure).

ESO_Nightingale

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Isn't that Chilled scaling going to be extremely oppressive on Magden in PVP when using Destructive Clench with Master's Ice Staff (or maybe even w/o Master's Ice Staff)? The Master Destruction staffs and Destructive Clench were reworked to not be used as spammables, but having Chilled as a guaranteed proc on hit would essentially make this ability a spammable that also: roots the target, applies Major Maim, applies Minor Maim, and gives the caster 600 SD w/ Master's Ice on top of the 12% damage boost from the Warden passive. That sounds extremely oppressive and overloaded, considering it's already fairly broken on Live in terms of value/utility.
Maybe I'm overestimating the damage, so I'll check the actual numbers when the PTS build editor is updated, but this is definitely a concern of mine.

Hi, you give the damage from Chilled scaling way too much credit. We are talking about up to ~2k damage proc on high damage builds. Even with this damage, Destructive Clench damage is way too low to be a functional spammable. On the other hand, the other morph just crossed the barrier of becoming a very competitive spammable to force pulse/ vamp spammable. One of the reasons players never liked this skill as a spammable was due to the animation and low velocity of the projectile. This aspect of the skill is still an issue for some players. You have to remember that magden biggest problem was always the lack of an execute skill and therefor the ability to really land the killing blow. Offensive Magdens can't afford to sacrifice damage for defense/utility. Master ice staff builds could be effective for BGs, but I don't see this trend overshadowing Stamdens in cyrodiil. DB+SA+Spin2Win, just way stronger(Can kill a group of players in one combo).

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

there's counters to aoe dots and immobilises that are often utilised anyway, if you didn't get out of it before, chilled isn't really the thing that's killing you. the real problem is the 10% increased damage when using an ice staff. chilled isn't the problem here, this change is really allowing frost damage builds to thrive in pve due to the procs over the course of a long fight.

I get your point about not liking the ice staff buff passive and I can relate, but on this point I don't think you are correct. If the magden is incentivized to use frost damage spells regardless(for the chill procs), the new change to the ice staff passive is a nerf. Before I could just go lighting staff front bar and get 10% buff from my passive+ 8% from my staff on my AOES. 18% total. The new shiny toy for Magdens is definitely the chill procs, not sure how effective it will actually be in PvP.

10% increased deep fissure and spammable damage is a lot. The chilled damage will definitely be nicer, but as it's a scaling bonus thatll be effected by battle spirit, i definitely see it being overshadowed by raw burst from piercing cold. Provided it remains that way.

Piercing cold also boosted DF before the change and many of the Maghden spammables(
Destructive Touch/ Cliff racer/ Elemental Weapon/ Arterial Burst etc...) and few ulties as well like Soul Strike/
ice comet/ Northern Storm etc... I had this bonus before with the option to get weapon damage passives on top, where is the boost you talking about? Magdens are not getting any damage boost from this change. This is a way to not share this passive with Stamdens and hybrid builds playing with different weapons other than ice staff, that's all. You can say that Ice staff users are more flexible with the skills they can take, sure. But if you want to maximize the effect from the chill proc, you will go with ice damage regardless(and deep fissure, sure).

You're right, you did gain those bonuses before. i concede the point. Regardless, glacial is bound to be heavily reduced in impact in pvp environments which is good, because the impact it has in pve is extremely positive. Putting scaling on it like they did was a good choice.

Caribou77

[/quote]

I think I can guess which skill you are using ^^
But many Magdens play close and personal regardless. so Destructive Clench/Destructive Reach can still be highly effective. [/quote]

Yep, I agree. Many MagDens do play close and personal. But then I think, "If you want to play a Warden close and personal, why on earth wouldn't you go StamDen, and quadruple your damage with Whirling Blades or Dizzy/Executioner?"

I like MagDen because I like the RP idea of being a magicka class that casts a variety of spells, rather than a stamina class that relies on Whirling Blades or Dizzy/Executioner.

It's a highly subjective, irrational preference, that has made my PVP experience a long, grueling learning curve.

But it's fun as hell when I 1v1 a DK for a couple minutes and eek out a win. They don't like losing to staff-wielding MagDens.

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

I forgot get were it was stated but I know that you can only proc a status effect once every second per target, so even if you have three frost dots active on a target you’ll still only hit them with chilled once per second, it’s really not that oppressive.

I haven't been able to find any indication of Chilled having a CD anywhere, if anyone wants to correct me fine.

But from our tests on Warden we can clearly see there is no CD:

Zooming in on the important bit:


Now this is isn't saying it's going to be oppressive, I don't really think it will, as you build a bit more defensive in PvP, so the effectiveness in PvP will go down since it is tied to W/S Damage. Just my own thoughts.

Yeah, even though it's burst damage is increased, it's basically enough to put ahead of the damaging status effects which you already want to apply a ton. This makes frost damage more valuable on warden in general, the increase is enough for it to do an absolute ton over the long course of a parse where you're applying it more than once every second. But it's gonna have less value over a shorter bursty encounter.

FrancisCrawford

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If Winter's Revenge pretty reliably applies Chilled, then it would seem that Force Pulse could do a lot of cleave damage.

Also, if your staff is Charged, then Force Pulse could also apply a lot of Burning and Concussed.

And if your spammable is applying a lot of Concussed, then the debuff appeal of Fetcherflies would presumably reduced, in an era when the damage from single-target DoTs is fairly underwhelming.


Or am I missing something?

Force Pulse AoE would be guaranteed with new Elemental Susceptibility wouldn't it?

Only if you cast susceptibility on every enemy, and even then the status effects would be active 4 out of 6 seconds.

Well, I think the maximum cleave is 2 anyway.

But can Elemental Susceptibility be cast on more than one target?

ESO_Nightingale

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

If Winter's Revenge pretty reliably applies Chilled, then it would seem that Force Pulse could do a lot of cleave damage.

Also, if your staff is Charged, then Force Pulse could also apply a lot of Burning and Concussed.

And if your spammable is applying a lot of Concussed, then the debuff appeal of Fetcherflies would presumably reduced, in an era when the damage from single-target DoTs is fairly underwhelming.


Or am I missing something?

Force Pulse AoE would be guaranteed with new Elemental Susceptibility wouldn't it?

Only if you cast susceptibility on every enemy, and even then the status effects would be active 4 out of 6 seconds.

Well, I think the maximum cleave is 2 anyway.

But can Elemental Susceptibility be cast on more than one target?

yeah but that's kinda wasting a gcd isn't it?

FrancisCrawford

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

I forgot get were it was stated but I know that you can only proc a status effect once every second per target, so even if you have three frost dots active on a target you’ll still only hit them with chilled once per second, it’s really not that oppressive.

Is that per status effect? E.g., can Force Pulse proc 2 or 3 effects at once?

ESO_Nightingale

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

GusTheWizard wrote: »

Firstmep wrote: »

Its not just the damage. A proper frost warden build in pvp can proc chilled several times a second already. Ice wall, shards and arctic blast each have high chance of applying chilled already, and wardens can use the charged trait pretty comfortably already due to deep fissure giving major and minor breach.

In bgs, frost wardens are already pretty oppressive, and can dish out serious damage, only lacking in finishing power, really.
This change is going to push their damage over the top.

I forgot get were it was stated but I know that you can only proc a status effect once every second per target, so even if you have three frost dots active on a target you’ll still only hit them with chilled once per second, it’s really not that oppressive.

Is that per status effect? E.g., can Force Pulse proc 2 or 3 effects at once?

yes, it's able to, it's very good at proccing itself, because it has 3 elements hitting at once.

FrancisCrawford

The one thing I'm looking forward to about these changes is ice/ice dungeon healing builds. If you're a healer who doesn't do trials, you run Spell Power Cure, so you need true HoTs or other ticking heals to proc it. If you want to dump a resto staff, you need class skills. Seeds plus Green Lotus should suffice. Winter's Revenge, dual charged ice staffs, magicka Shalks and Force Pulse should combine for OK damage and a lot of debuffing.

You lack a cheap option for burst healing, because you lack a single-target option for burst healing. But otherewise it looks like a pretty good package. The "rotation" is insanely dynamic, but hybrid healing builds are like that in any case.

Running Wall of Elements might interfere with a really good tank who doesn't want anybody else handing out cc immunity -- but Wall is expendable, especially if you communicate about that.

ESO_Nightingale

whoops i just made an edit to the glacial presence developer comment. i accidentally copy pasted the actual change twice and only noticed several days later.

MindOfTheSwarm

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Warden DPS will be OP with all that extra crit dmg.

Eh I mean in Organized endgame groups you'd already have capped crit damage. So you'd just build different. The real benefit is the bonus damage on chilled procs which if you run Winter's Revenge, you'll get constantly. A really nice bonus if you are running a frost setup as well, a lot of people see it as a meme build but it's starting to catch up slowly.

Still the issue is the Piercing Cold passive, really pushing people towards frost staff is not a good direction.

Just some thoughts to consider

What's the Chilled proc rate on Winter's Revenge? The tool tip on the passive doesn't sound like it would be as high as it seems to be in real life, since the base rate before all the buffs should be just 1%.

i think it's like 5% base before glacial, cp, destro and charged.

It’s 15%. Someone tested it a while back.

ESO_Nightingale

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Rex-Umbra wrote: »

Warden DPS will be OP with all that extra crit dmg.

Eh I mean in Organized endgame groups you'd already have capped crit damage. So you'd just build different. The real benefit is the bonus damage on chilled procs which if you run Winter's Revenge, you'll get constantly. A really nice bonus if you are running a frost setup as well, a lot of people see it as a meme build but it's starting to catch up slowly.

Still the issue is the Piercing Cold passive, really pushing people towards frost staff is not a good direction.

Just some thoughts to consider

What's the Chilled proc rate on Winter's Revenge? The tool tip on the passive doesn't sound like it would be as high as it seems to be in real life, since the base rate before all the buffs should be just 1%.

i think it's like 5% base before glacial, cp, destro and charged.

It’s 15%. Someone tested it a while back.

I think it was 15% because of glacial presence. 5+200% is 15 afterall.

Dangerjoe1982

With about 900hours played, and 800 of those on my warden, id consider myself a warden main.

I've always felt that warden was a bit off thematically, and I actually don't mind that they push warden into an icy theme. I quite like the mix of nature and frost.
I cant see the problem of making wardens use ice staffs, sorcs lightning staffs and dk's firestaffs. It would in my opinion match the theme quite nice. BRING BACK CLASS IDENTITY!

- Just align damage within a +/-5% for the different classes, meaning that the gap between choosing a magden / magplar / magdk is negligible.

Caribou77

Sorry to stray from the main topic here, but from a PVP MagDen perspective, the main problems with the class currently are:

1) cliff racers arent viable (pvp)
2) current deep fissure isnt viable (pvp)
3) class ultimates are not viable

There’s simply no reason to play it.

Spamming frost reach and trying to get the nine second deep fissure to work just isn’t any fun when you are completely outgunned, and on a slower more awkward rotation than any other class.

It’s pretty much whirling blades and executioner and assassins blade racking up pvp kills right now. And no salt, that’s as it should be. MagDen needs an execute. And a spammable. And…

Aldoss

I hopped on pts last night and tested out the new chilled buffs. I'm pretty optimistic for this change.

With no cp and a charged staff, Winter's Revenge is somewhere around 50% chill proc. Artic Blast is essentially 95%. Chill application is still somewhere around 60-65% proc with a precise staff and gives an interesting choice for personalization. Charged yielded more total dps but precise increased the average damage per hit by ~6-700.

Base bonus dmg was boosted to ~1150 on a medium dmg, high crit rate, high crit dmg build. That equated to PvE hits averaging around 2-2.6k for my tested build with crits getting above 4.5k.

In a pvp environment, I think this new feature more than makes up for our lack of class execute. The new chill becomes another mode of sustained pressure from a warden that more clearly benefits us frostdens than our stamden siblings. It makes up for our inability to properly utilize burning like other classes for sustained dps and helps to formulate our class identity.

There's still a lot of work to be done, but I'm really excited by this one passive change.

I'm in agreement with all the other warden mains regarding Piercing Cold, especially my fellow frostdens - we did not ask for the frost staff restriction and I don't agree with its implementation. It doesn't personally affect my play style, but this change is a huge shock to the entire atmosphere of what eso is and everyone should be up in arms about it.

The crit dmg switch on Advanced Species is actually fine to me as a PvP focused frostden. I'm much more accepting of it now that it's not double dipping with Glacial Presence.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

I hopped on pts last night and tested out the new chilled buffs. I'm pretty optimistic for this change.

With no cp and a charged staff, Winter's Revenge is somewhere around 50% chill proc. Artic Blast is essentially 95%. Chill application is still somewhere around 60-65% proc with a precise staff and gives an interesting choice for personalization. Charged yielded more total dps but precise increased the average damage per hit by ~6-700.

Base bonus dmg was boosted to ~1150 on a medium dmg, high crit rate, high crit dmg build. That equated to PvE hits averaging around 2-2.6k for my tested build with crits getting above 4.5k.

In a pvp environment, I think this new feature more than makes up for our lack of class execute. The new chill becomes another mode of sustained pressure from a warden that more clearly benefits us frostdens than our stamden siblings. It makes up for our inability to properly utilize burning like other classes for sustained dps and helps to formulate our class identity.

There's still a lot of work to be done, but I'm really excited by this one passive change.

I'm in agreement with all the other warden mains regarding Piercing Cold, especially my fellow frostdens - we did not ask for the frost staff restriction and I don't agree with its implementation. It doesn't personally affect my play style, but this change is a huge shock to the entire atmosphere of what eso is and everyone should be up in arms about it.

The crit dmg switch on Advanced Species is actually fine to me as a PvP focused frostden. I'm much more accepting of it now that it's not double dipping with Glacial Presence.

yeah, if we can just clear up piercing cold, i'm happy with the patch.

Jyrus_JD

A warden skill I would want to see changed personally is Frozen Retreat, I’ve spoken to some Warden tanks and they never use this version of this morph because Device is just simply better in every way so I think changing Retreat to becoming a DPS skill wouldn’t harm Warden Tanks at all. I would also want to see the bear not be a “pet” and just be a good ultimate to use instead of it being the only ultimate that wardens use in harder content but I wouldn’t know how to go about it so it’s just a wish. Another skill that isn’t warden but is one that Frost Wardens do use is Unstable wall of Elements. Just make the unstable version be like the Fire version where if the enemy has the elements status (if the enemy is concussed then Storm wall deals more and frost wall deals more to enemies who are chilled) an

ESO_Nightingale

This week is a bit disappointing, but to be expected. I really hope they choose to not go forward with piercing cold balanced as is.

Caribou77

Hm. I get that the chill proc from winters revenge and arctic blast greatly boost PVE MagDens, but I don't see this translating well to PVP.

Aldoss - do you use winters revenge much in PVP? I never have because it's so static (kind of like no one really uses wall of elements). It is entirely possible I am missing out an effective tactic. Please let me know if I am.

Also, I think I preferred the added penetration for Advanced Species (PVP, obviously it was horrible for PVE) as MagDens don't really build for crit in PVP -- or do they?

I would love to hear PVP Mag/FrostDen perspectives, as I am not feeling very confident that changes to Piercing Cold/etc for the next patch have done anything beyond pigeon-hole PVP MagDen with a frost staff, for a very neglegible increase (~2% overall) in damage.

Thanks to all of the well-informed and dedicated Magicka Wardens who continue to (try) to help the class evolve. Still feels like it needs alot.

ESO_Nightingale

Caribou77 wrote: »

Hm. I get that the chill proc from winters revenge and arctic blast greatly boost PVE MagDens, but I don't see this translating well to PVP.

Aldoss - do you use winters revenge much in PVP? I never have because it's so static (kind of like no one really uses wall of elements). It is entirely possible I am missing out an effective tactic. Please let me know if I am.

Also, I think I preferred the added penetration for Advanced Species (PVP, obviously it was horrible for PVE) as MagDens don't really build for crit in PVP -- or do they?

I would love to hear PVP Mag/FrostDen perspectives, as I am not feeling very confident that changes to Piercing Cold/etc for the next patch have done anything beyond pigeon-hole PVP MagDen with a frost staff, for a very neglegible increase (~2% overall) in damage.

Thanks to all of the well-informed and dedicated Magicka Wardens who continue to (try) to help the class evolve. Still feels like it needs alot.

apparently according to my source for pvp it's about the 3rd highest damage source on the list. it's applied roughly every 2 seconds with arctic blast ticks, as well as with frost enchants. if you use frost reach it'll obviously apply there too. crit builds are pretty much bis from what i've heard.