Stop nerfing Graven Deep

Mirumorg

Two patches have been made since the new DLC came out and both times you nerfed Graven Deep. The only decent boss from the last two dungeons in veteran mode is slowly becoming a meme like everyone else ...

Treeshka

I have no idea why are they nerfing it still. The dungeon can be cleared no death at the first day of its test server release. It was hard but it was possible.

BlueRaven

“Can be cleared” and “can be cleared by the majority of players” are two different things. Obviously the failure rate on the final boss is too high.

All they nerfed was the flesh constructs on vet. Not that big of a deal.

Mirumorg

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Can be cleared” and “can be cleared by the majority of players” are two different things. Obviously the failure rate on the final boss is too high.

All they nerfed was the flesh constructs on vet. Not that big of a deal.

In the previous patch they nerfed all damage from all boss mechanics, including the Flesh Abominations and the Flesh Atronachs ... this is the second nerf in 14 days.
Following your reasoning to get it clean by the majority of players ZOS must remove the mechanics and not nerf the damage. Because the "difficult" is to do the mechanics and not the damage

dmnqwk

Mirumorg wrote: »

Two patches have been made since the new DLC came out and both times you nerfed Graven Deep. The only decent boss from the last two dungeons in veteran mode is slowly becoming a meme like everyone else ...

Oh now that's an idea... They should allow players who complain it's becoming too easy to toggle on a special mode that elevates the difficulty just for them. Like apply battlespirit or slow their movement by 50%. Something personal just to them so they can keep enjoying it personally, without affecting other people (unless, of course, they're just angry other people can now complete it).

I did enjoy how hard Graven Deep was, for a minute. However - once the difficult is defeated, it's not really going to keep being fun is it? Because... with practice it gets easier anyway. So if it gets easier does it matter?

Naftal

dmnqwk wrote: »

Mirumorg wrote: »

Two patches have been made since the new DLC came out and both times you nerfed Graven Deep. The only decent boss from the last two dungeons in veteran mode is slowly becoming a meme like everyone else ...

Oh now that's an idea... They should allow players who complain it's becoming too easy to toggle on a special mode that elevates the difficulty just for them. Like apply battlespirit or slow their movement by 50%. Something personal just to them so they can keep enjoying it personally, without affecting other people (unless, of course, they're just angry other people can now complete it).

I did enjoy how hard Graven Deep was, for a minute. However - once the difficult is defeated, it's not really going to keep being fun is it? Because... with practice it gets easier anyway. So if it gets easier does it matter?

OH! That special mode could be called hard mode. There could be a banner or something before bosses to activate that hard mode. Surely they wouldn't nerf that hard mode in every patch?

Jaimeh

dmnqwk wrote: »

Oh now that's an idea... They should allow players who complain it's becoming too easy to toggle on a special mode that elevates the difficulty just for them. Like apply battlespirit or slow their movement by 50%. Something personal just to them so they can keep enjoying it personally, without affecting other people (unless, of course, they're just angry other people can now complete it).

I don't think the OP complained anywhere about being angry that others can now complete it, only that they prefer having a more challenging fight. It's good to make adjustments when things are overtuned, but I don't think it's helpful to stir things up by conflating the issue of a brand new dungeon being naturally difficult with a casual versus hardcore playstyle debate. Also, there is already a special mode that elevates difficulty: it's hard mode, and clearing it should pose a challenge. There are two other modes for an easier fight.

Soarora

The vet mode was really bad to try and pug and it might continue to be. I think the constant patches about it shows they’re taking it slow, which is nice. I don’t think the HM needed touched though, I wish they’d just nerf vet.

tomofhyrule

But Graven Deep was overtuned. Some of the best players on PTS since it was out on PTS said that its difficulty was much higher than other comparable bosses, especially with the healing nerfs that hit in U35.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611059/pts-update-35-feedback-thread-for-graven-deep

I get that some people want to gatekeep and keep something stupidly hard so they can flex their "I'm in the top 0.00001% of players," but there should be at least some consistency in difficulty and not one vet DLC dungeon being at the same level as some other DLC HMs. Compare it to Earthen Root, or even some other DLC dungeons like Dread Cellar (which got a nerf soon after release for the same reason)

Yes, sometimes they overnerf dungeons (looking at you, laser boss in vFV), but Graven Deep's final boss did need something done to it to bring it in line. If your DPS there wasn't well over 100k, then the tank almost had to kite the atro because it hit like a truck, which meant you ended up with cones all over the place. A non-HM dungeon, even a DLC, should not have a soft DPS check that high.

Besides, don't we already have enough "I hate DLC dungeons because they're all too long and hard and we should only have nFGI in the random queue" threads? Do we need DLCs to be more inaccessible?

Olen_Mikko

Agreed. It's a L2P issue, nothing more.

For once, at least one dungeon was a real challenge and not something you can do with an average group. Players, grow a pair and learn. Zos, grow a pair and hold on to your decisions.

Soarora

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Agreed. It's a L2P issue, nothing more.

For once, at least one dungeon was a real challenge and not something you can do with an average group. Players, grow a pair and learn. Zos, grow a pair and hold on to your decisions.

The average vet dungeoneer should be able to complete it or else another “people quit on entry” dungeon is going to be added to the random vet list. I also don’t want to spend over an hour in a vet dungeon literally progging the last boss. If you want something the average group can’t do and want to prog, HM is right there.

Naftal

Soarora wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Agreed. It's a L2P issue, nothing more.

For once, at least one dungeon was a real challenge and not something you can do with an average group. Players, grow a pair and learn. Zos, grow a pair and hold on to your decisions.

The average vet dungeoneer should be able to complete it or else another “people quit on entry” dungeon is going to be added to the random vet list. I also don’t want to spend over an hour in a vet dungeon literally progging the last boss. If you want something the average group can’t do and want to prog, HM is right there.

Which is why they should stop nerfing hard modes.

What next? Make the orbs do only 50% of player health as damage if failed?

Soarora

Naftal wrote: »

Soarora wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Agreed. It's a L2P issue, nothing more.

For once, at least one dungeon was a real challenge and not something you can do with an average group. Players, grow a pair and learn. Zos, grow a pair and hold on to your decisions.

The average vet dungeoneer should be able to complete it or else another “people quit on entry” dungeon is going to be added to the random vet list. I also don’t want to spend over an hour in a vet dungeon literally progging the last boss. If you want something the average group can’t do and want to prog, HM is right there.

Which is why they should stop nerfing hard modes.

What next? Make the orbs do only 50% of player health as damage if failed?

I said this already but I agree, the HM was fine and shouldn’t be touched at all, only vet.

BlueRaven

Mirumorg wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

“Can be cleared” and “can be cleared by the majority of players” are two different things. Obviously the failure rate on the final boss is too high.

All they nerfed was the flesh constructs on vet. Not that big of a deal.

In the previous patch they nerfed all damage from all boss mechanics, including the Flesh Abominations and the Flesh Atronachs ... this is the second nerf in 14 days.
Following your reasoning to get it clean by the majority of players ZOS must remove the mechanics and not nerf the damage. Because the "difficult" is to do the mechanics and not the damage

They are taking many small nerfs at a time. That is better than taking one larger nerf that overpassed the difficulty target.

spartaxoxo

They nerf it when it's completion rate is inappropriate. People who can complete other hard modes with reasonable effort should also be able to complete Graven Deep. If it's not the case, as reflected by the statistics, then they nerf it.

Luke_Flamesword

Good it was nerfed, it was awful dungeon for PUGs. I completed it with 6th or 7th team, most times tanks didn't know how to survive this (and they wasn't fake tanks). I spent something like 5h with different teams and it was just really frustrating, completed with last only because tank gave up and I get really protank from guild. Sure, mechanics can be fun, but for progressing dungeon with premade team and probably voice communication, not for random PUG! We have HM for that, vet should be doable for any PUG, where players are good, not necessarily ESO gods.

btw. During maybe 3rd or 4th team run we almost killed boss (after 1,5h of trying), but someone didn't maked it for orb and there was wipeout with boss at 2% health. It was beautiful ragequit

Arthtur

I agree that most of the time dungeons are overnerfed just because PUGs cant do mechs but this time they just nerfed the Abomination which had more HP than the boss on vet.... It shouldnt be that bad as good players were ignoring it at the vet as it was faster and easier to just kill the boss.
Well, i just hope that the fight didnt become a joke just like a laser boss in Frostvault.

boi_anachronism_

Folks wonder why random normal dungeons are filled with 1200cp players. This is why. No one wants to get the dungeon that is near impossible to pug on vet. I tried it with guild mates and we are no slackers, experience tank and healer, plenty of dps and on mic. We have all completed nearly all other vet content multiple times, trials and 4-man and some of them have trifectas on later dlcs. We couldn't clear even knowing all the mechs because the tank kept getting wacked by the atro over and over. So yeah I like hard content but it needs to be in line with other vet dlc content.

Dagoth_Rac

They have completion statistics I am sure they look at. Like, "20% vet clear after 2 weeks, 2% vet HM clear after 2 weeks." Or, "35% vet clear after 4 weeks, 5% vet HM clear after 4 weeks." If the numbers are not being met, it will get changed. I highly doubt they are nerfing stuff for the lulz. They are looking for reasonably consistent levels of challenge and difficulty.

Ingenon

I call Graven Deep the "Fake Tank Killer" dungeon. I have been in two normal PUG that wiped multiple times and quit on final boss. Each time, the fake tank failed to taunt and hold the summoned monster on the final boss, and the monster ran around and killed everyone. And this is on normal difficulty.

Varana

The Abomination was heavily overtuned in non-hm vet. Depending on group performance in the shadow realm, of course, but if that was slacking a bit for one reason or another, the thing could kill professional tanks through block.
I'm also pretty sure they don't have just completion statistics but also more detailed information about what the main problems are. If groups aren't playing mechanics and are failing orbs, then nerfing the Abomination doesn't make much sense, obviously.

Arunei

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Agreed. It's a L2P issue, nothing more.

For once, at least one dungeon was a real challenge and not something you can do with an average group. Players, grow a pair and learn. Zos, grow a pair and hold on to your decisions.

This is what people are talking about when they mention other players being toxic. You really should learn to be less of a jerk and realize that plenty of people who want to clear content can't. It's such a narrow-minded mindset, this whole ridiculous "l2p" thing. Because things like disabilities or age don't exist.

I'd also like to know in what world any content being so hard it can't be cleared by an average group is a good thing. That's literal gatekeeping.

boi_anachronism_

Arunei wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Agreed. It's a L2P issue, nothing more.

For once, at least one dungeon was a real challenge and not something you can do with an average group. Players, grow a pair and learn. Zos, grow a pair and hold on to your decisions.

This is what people are talking about when they mention other players being toxic. You really should learn to be less of a jerk and realize that plenty of people who want to clear content can't. It's such a narrow-minded mindset, this whole ridiculous "l2p" thing. Because things like disabilities or age don't exist.

I'd also like to know in what world any content being so hard it can't be cleared by an average group is a good thing. That's literal gatekeeping.

As I mentioned in above post- even really seasoned players are having a hard time clearing vet, not just average ones even so yeah- it needed a tweak.

Arunei

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Agreed. It's a L2P issue, nothing more.

For once, at least one dungeon was a real challenge and not something you can do with an average group. Players, grow a pair and learn. Zos, grow a pair and hold on to your decisions.

This is what people are talking about when they mention other players being toxic. You really should learn to be less of a jerk and realize that plenty of people who want to clear content can't. It's such a narrow-minded mindset, this whole ridiculous "l2p" thing. Because things like disabilities or age don't exist.

I'd also like to know in what world any content being so hard it can't be cleared by an average group is a good thing. That's literal gatekeeping.

As I mentioned in above post- even really seasoned players are having a hard time clearing vet, not just average ones even so yeah- it needed a tweak.

Yeah, it's a problem if even the higher level players are having trouble. Even Vet DLC dungeons should be something a pug can complete, even if it takes some time and a couple of wipes. If people want a challenge, that's what HM is for. But don't get butthurt and crap on others when Vet is nerfed so more than just the top 1% of player can clear it. As someone else already mentioned (mighta been you, I can't remember who it was honestly), there are already problems with people dipping the second they see a DLC dungeon come up for randoms. I really don't think we need to add to that problem with a super-hard Vet version that no one will want to bother with.

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After further review we have decided to move this thread to a category we think is more appropriate for this topic.

Thank you for your understanding

HappyTheCamper

I also think it’s telling based on ZOS’s excuse for the entire U35 and the big nerfs we all suffered is they want the game to be more “accessible.” Graven Deep regular vet is like a hard mode in itself. Trying to play volleyball while avoid two one-shots and a mini that’s as healthy as the boss is an absurd idea of “accessible.” And I’ve cleared it with pugs!

endgamesmug

I really liked the dungeon but with the unpopularity of dlc dungeons on pc, its pretty hard going finding a steady group. So having to rely on dungeon finder can be lengthy getting clears, i will be back at some stage. Im pretty indifferent to the nerfs currently, might be apathy at work there. I just wish dungeons were as popular as trials on pc thats all id like.

code65536

The nerf was fine for vet.

The nerf was unnecessary for vet HM.

For some reason, ZOS failed to make a distinction between vet and vet HM for a number of the mechanics, which leads for an unfortunate loss of nuance in the balance.

Due to that lack of distinction, what was perfectly fine for HM was overtuned for vet. And now this latest adjustment puts vet in a good place, but unnecessarily nerfs HM.