You need to rvert Surprise Attack changes.

Vetixio

Jazraena wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please answer the question, @Vetixio. What CC is attached to Surprise Attack?

Surprise Attack: Cost: 2295
Stamina
.
Slash an enemy, dealing 3097 Physical Damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Attacking with Surprise Attack from the flank stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

My bad it has 2 CCs attached if you weave properly, there’s your answer lol.

We're talking about next patch. The Stun got removed. If by the second CC you mean Off Balance, ignoring how clunky it is, that is provided by the base ability Veiled Strike, and thus also by the other morph Concealed Weapon that is superior in every other way now.

So please, enlighten me.

Why would I use Surprise Attack?

Off balance is still a soft CC and you can easily weave to get a hard CC no other spammable has this much damage and additional effects tied to it next patch.

AlterBlika

Guaranteed crit every 4 secs is pretty useless in pve, as well as in pvp. Stun from flank wasn't of much use in pve, and in pvp you can still medium weave to get stun from off balance but with a longer stun cd. Personally, I see no point in this change. The mag morph seems interesting though...

xDeusEJRx

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please answer the question, @Vetixio. What CC is attached to Surprise Attack?

Surprise Attack: Cost: 2295
Stamina
.
Slash an enemy, dealing 3097 Physical Damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Attacking with Surprise Attack from the flank stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

My bad it has 2 CCs attached if you weave properly, there’s your answer lol.

We're talking about next patch. The Stun got removed. If by the second CC you mean Off Balance, ignoring how clunky it is, that is provided by the base ability Veiled Strike, and thus also by the other morph Concealed Weapon that is superior in every other way now.

So please, enlighten me.

Why would I use Surprise Attack?

Off balance is still a soft CC and you can easily weave to get a hard CC no other spammable has this much damage and additional effects tied to it next patch.

I beg to differ. Off balance stunning is not reliable outside of 1v1s. How do you expect me in open world fighting against 4 or 5 other players to medium weave on top of 1 player of a 5 man group whos all swarming me at once and might be spamming crowd controls on me at the same time.

It just doesn't happen and thinking that's a reliable cop-out is just laughable. Medium weave stunning is ONLY good on shadowy disguise spamming playstyles. Because you can land most hits out of invisibility but players like me who don't enjoy invisibility playstyle just have to hope the people you fight dont try to roll dodge or run away from you in that scenario.

Everyone likes to focus on "nightblade can do this but other classes can't do this" instead of focusing on why it functions that way. The reason nightblade had the stun according to zos is terrible CC options. Why are CC's bad and don't function well for nightblade? It's because the abilities are all clunky in the first place. The buff to fear means nothing when the toolkit is clunky and doesn't work together.

Like how many times do you see other classes claiming their combination doesn't connect or feels junky or clunky or has a travel time preventing things from working in 90% of pvp scenarios? That's what's wrong with nightblade and that's why they gave the stun in the first place because they screwed most of the abilities with cast times/travel times and the class is still suffering from it.

Nightblades DO NOT need medium weaving, we need our class toolkit to be re-worked or fixed

Jazraena

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please answer the question, @Vetixio. What CC is attached to Surprise Attack?

Surprise Attack: Cost: 2295
Stamina
.
Slash an enemy, dealing 3097 Physical Damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Attacking with Surprise Attack from the flank stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

My bad it has 2 CCs attached if you weave properly, there’s your answer lol.

We're talking about next patch. The Stun got removed. If by the second CC you mean Off Balance, ignoring how clunky it is, that is provided by the base ability Veiled Strike, and thus also by the other morph Concealed Weapon that is superior in every other way now.

So please, enlighten me.

Why would I use Surprise Attack?

Off balance is still a soft CC and you can easily weave to get a hard CC no other spammable has this much damage and additional effects tied to it next patch.

Please read my full post, not just half of it. Off-balance is not unique to Surprise Attack. Why would I use Surprise Attack over Concealed Weapon?

Heck, why would I use Surprise Attack over Dizzying Swing?

Vetixio

Jazraena wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please answer the question, @Vetixio. What CC is attached to Surprise Attack?

Surprise Attack: Cost: 2295
Stamina
.
Slash an enemy, dealing 3097 Physical Damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Attacking with Surprise Attack from the flank stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

My bad it has 2 CCs attached if you weave properly, there’s your answer lol.

We're talking about next patch. The Stun got removed. If by the second CC you mean Off Balance, ignoring how clunky it is, that is provided by the base ability Veiled Strike, and thus also by the other morph Concealed Weapon that is superior in every other way now.

So please, enlighten me.

Why would I use Surprise Attack?

Off balance is still a soft CC and you can easily weave to get a hard CC no other spammable has this much damage and additional effects tied to it next patch.

Please read my full post, not just half of it. Off-balance is not unique to Surprise Attack. Why would I use Surprise Attack over Concealed Weapon?

Heck, why would I use Surprise Attack over Dizzying Swing?

Hits harder, provides sundered and off balance status effects and procs Major Resolve from passives and crits every 4 seconds. All dizzying swing does is set the target off balance.

Jazraena

Address all points, please. Don't cherry pick singular items where you believe to have an argument. All of them.

In respect to the PTS version at that, not Live.

ZOS_Icy

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Ragnaroek93

Honestly, it's a meme at this point. This skill isn't standarized and needs to be nerfed and that skill isn't standarized either blablabla. And it's always used for the good skills, never for the skills which are weaker than their weapon skill counterparts (fear -> fighters guild stun, mark target -> ele drain, killers blade -> executioner...).

Standarization was one of the biggest mistake which this dev team has ever made and totally ruined the class identity and fun of this game. How about we start designing abilities around being fun and trying to balance the overall package of the class? But I doubt that the combat devs actually know what fun is at this point (hint: having a cast time on my dodgeable and blockable single target ult isn't fun for example).

Jazraena

Standardization isn't bad, per se - but as you rightly say, it's incomplete and oddly targetted.

It's one of the things that annoys me about these wild combat changes. Can we maybe finish bringing all skills and sets to standards before we change the entire environment again, thus often undoing the standardization and having to restart because all the underlying assumptions have been altered? Or instead of overnerfing specific abilities below standard?

I mean, what even is the standard in this case? Surprise Attack or Concealed Weapon? Because you can't tell me they are equal despite just both being addressed.

DrSlaughtr

From the other thread:

If you're attacking a DK, templar or necro, you are often hitting more than one surprise attack, but how often in under 4 second? Here's an example (weaving not included). This is basic stuff though. Every target is different.

Tougher Target
Cloak -> Incap or Soul Harvest -> Surprise Attack -> Surprise Attack -> Execute
4 GCDs.

Medium Target
Cloak -> Surprise Attack -> Surprise Attack -> Execute
3 GCDs.

Squishy Target
Cloak -> Surprise Attack -> Execute
2 GCDs.

In all those situations, you do not get any benefit from the flank crit while also losing the CC which is useful against runners.

If the flank crit had no cooldown, we would actually see a benefit from it on heartier enemies, but even then it wouldn't be earth shattering BECAUSE WE WILL CRIT AT A HIGH LEVEL ANYWAY.

What people haven't understood for 4 weeks now is how often you crit anyway. Even if your % is like 40 percent, between all the layers of damage you can drop within 1-3 seconds, your crits are going to land. If you naturally crit a surprise attack, either it shouldn't proc the cooldown (which calculating could cause potential lag) OR there shouldn't be a CD.

I can't believe I am still seeing people claim it's a buff to lose the cc so you can "target" them. This really makes no sense. Most targets are running around getting cc'd anyway, which means they often are immune when you hit them out of stealth or from flank.

The biggest benefit from the SA CC is running down kiters. As I've said before, it's not that big of a deal to lose it IF we're getting something in return. We got a flank crit guarantee which is a slight bump.

So they removed the CC to appease the complaints. Fine. But of course as has been proven for over a year, any nerf to NBs is never good enough, so the complainers continued.

So then ZOS removes the guaranteed flank without returning the CC. This translates into yet another nerf to NBs. Framing it any other way is disingenuous.

Jaimeh

Nothing 'surprising' anymore about it, they've turned it into a redundant useless skill. It was fine as it was on live, now it will be one of those morphs left in the dust.

DrSlaughtr

What's likely going to happen is most will switch to concealed weapon. Not because it's OP. Solely because the other option is being nerfed.

This will then create a situation where it can be framed that concealed weapon is overperforming due to usage. People will then call for it to be gutted as well.

Meet the new boss. Same as the old boss.

Extinct_Solo_Player

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

NB itself is overloaded with that minor and major cowardice, minor mending, even minor resolve and major evasion tied to one skill which now also reduces dodge roll costs. I don't see how suprise attack was seen as a weak spammable by zos when the new abomination that is jabs/sweeps exists.

DrSlaughtr

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

NB itself is overloaded with that minor and major cowardice, minor mending, even minor resolve and major evasion tied to one skill which now also reduces dodge roll costs. I don't see how suprise attack was seen as a weak spammable by zos when the new abomination that is jabs/sweeps exists.

You should really add context to these claims.

Minor cowardice is attached to power extraction that is rarely used, as it's a pile of garbage. Wardens also have access to this on an equally unused skill for PVP.

Not sure where you're getting major cowardice. We do not have that in our toolkit.

Yes we get minor mending from our not so great burst heal. Meanwhile DKs can access major mending from a skill and wardens can get it for free from a passive.

Minor resolve and evasion are both tied to mirage. How many ganks you see running around with that? Not many. Honestly can't remember the last time it was featured in a build video.

Let's touch on the person you quoted.

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

It's not best spammable on live. Concealed is now way better on pts.

We are a burst class. So yes we need the ability to burst. A crit guarantee on flank is only mildly useful on a class that crits a lot anyway. Adding a CD makes it a hardly useful "buff."

Wardens, templars, and nightblades all can set you off balance natively, as can werewolves and vampires. There are other none class specific sources as well. Point is, you're painting this like some unique thing to NBs and it isn't.

Sundered is nice but c'mon. It's minor breach, not major. It's a small bump in dps.

Not sure why you're lumping in major resolve with SA but let's break that down too. We are the only class without a native skill that gives major resolve. Instead we get it as a passive, and if you're running no heavy armor, you only get it for 6 seconds.

I know a lot of people like to pick out the things we have in our tool kits. DKs, templars, necros and sorcs all have access to more sustain, more native buffs, and more defenses. We can't even get brutally/sorcery on siphoning strikes. Instead they tied it to an attack that breaks stealth. Not exactly great for a cloak blade.

There's a reason why many NBs ran to get oakensoul. The amount of steps I have to go through before making a single attack is hilariously bad, and all those skills take up a lot of room.

Extinct_Solo_Player

ninjagank wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

NB itself is overloaded with that minor and major cowardice, minor mending, even minor resolve and major evasion tied to one skill which now also reduces dodge roll costs. I don't see how suprise attack was seen as a weak spammable by zos when the new abomination that is jabs/sweeps exists.

You should really add context to these claims.

Minor cowardice is attached to power extraction that is rarely used, as it's a pile of garbage. Wardens also have access to this on an equally unused skill for PVP.

Not sure where you're getting major cowardice. We do not have that in our toolkit.

Yes we get minor mending from our not so great burst heal. Meanwhile DKs can access major mending from a skill and wardens can get it for free from a passive.

Minor resolve and evasion are both tied to mirage. How many ganks you see running around with that? Not many. Honestly can't remember the last time it was featured in a build video.

Let's touch on the person you quoted.

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

It's not best spammable on live. Concealed is now way better on pts.

We are a burst class. So yes we need the ability to burst. A crit guarantee on flank is only mildly useful on a class that crits a lot anyway. Adding a CD makes it a hardly useful "buff."

Wardens, templars, and nightblades all can set you off balance natively, as can werewolves and vampires. There are other none class specific sources as well. Point is, you're painting this like some unique thing to NBs and it isn't.

Sundered is nice but c'mon. It's minor breach, not major. It's a small bump in dps.

Not sure why you're lumping in major resolve with SA but let's break that down too. We are the only class without a native skill that gives major resolve. Instead we get it as a passive, and if you're running no heavy armor, you only get it for 6 seconds.

I know a lot of people like to pick out the things we have in our tool kits. DKs, templars, necros and sorcs all have access to more sustain, more native buffs, and more defenses. We can't even get brutally/sorcery on siphoning strikes. Instead they tied it to an attack that breaks stealth. Not exactly great for a cloak blade.

There's a reason why many NBs ran to get oakensoul. The amount of steps I have to go through before making a single attack is hilariously bad, and all those skills take up a lot of room.

Seems to me you don't know how to play your class effectively if you think Nightblade can only be effective as a ganker lmao. Please, do not make it sound like nightblade is terrible when its far from that. The moment you called something like healthy offering not so good when the skill heals me for 17k on live and implied something like fragmented shield is better gave me a good chuckle. Yes there is major cowardice added to the nightblade toolkit on PTS go have a look and you shall find.

IZZEFlameLash

ninjagank wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

NB itself is overloaded with that minor and major cowardice, minor mending, even minor resolve and major evasion tied to one skill which now also reduces dodge roll costs. I don't see how suprise attack was seen as a weak spammable by zos when the new abomination that is jabs/sweeps exists.

You should really add context to these claims.

Minor cowardice is attached to power extraction that is rarely used, as it's a pile of garbage. Wardens also have access to this on an equally unused skill for PVP.

Not sure where you're getting major cowardice. We do not have that in our toolkit.

Yes we get minor mending from our not so great burst heal. Meanwhile DKs can access major mending from a skill and wardens can get it for free from a passive.

Minor resolve and evasion are both tied to mirage. How many ganks you see running around with that? Not many. Honestly can't remember the last time it was featured in a build video.

Let's touch on the person you quoted.

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

It's not best spammable on live. Concealed is now way better on pts.

We are a burst class. So yes we need the ability to burst. A crit guarantee on flank is only mildly useful on a class that crits a lot anyway. Adding a CD makes it a hardly useful "buff."

Wardens, templars, and nightblades all can set you off balance natively, as can werewolves and vampires. There are other none class specific sources as well. Point is, you're painting this like some unique thing to NBs and it isn't.

Sundered is nice but c'mon. It's minor breach, not major. It's a small bump in dps.

Not sure why you're lumping in major resolve with SA but let's break that down too. We are the only class without a native skill that gives major resolve. Instead we get it as a passive, and if you're running no heavy armor, you only get it for 6 seconds.

I know a lot of people like to pick out the things we have in our tool kits. DKs, templars, necros and sorcs all have access to more sustain, more native buffs, and more defenses. We can't even get brutally/sorcery on siphoning strikes. Instead they tied it to an attack that breaks stealth. Not exactly great for a cloak blade.

There's a reason why many NBs ran to get oakensoul. The amount of steps I have to go through before making a single attack is hilariously bad, and all those skills take up a lot of room.

Sundered is not bad. Minor Breach is harder to come by than Major Breach and most of skills with Minor Breach are not spammables except for Snipe/Puncture morph. Otherwise, they come from delayed sources or you have to make some specific builds to get it to get Minor Breach reliably. And with penetration being valued as is in PvP, I really don't see how readily accessible Minor Breach without having to build for it can be bad.

master_vanargand

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

NB itself is overloaded with that minor and major cowardice, minor mending, even minor resolve and major evasion tied to one skill which now also reduces dodge roll costs. I don't see how suprise attack was seen as a weak spammable by zos when the new abomination that is jabs/sweeps exists.

You should really add context to these claims.

Minor cowardice is attached to power extraction that is rarely used, as it's a pile of garbage. Wardens also have access to this on an equally unused skill for PVP.

Not sure where you're getting major cowardice. We do not have that in our toolkit.

Yes we get minor mending from our not so great burst heal. Meanwhile DKs can access major mending from a skill and wardens can get it for free from a passive.

Minor resolve and evasion are both tied to mirage. How many ganks you see running around with that? Not many. Honestly can't remember the last time it was featured in a build video.

Let's touch on the person you quoted.

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

It's not best spammable on live. Concealed is now way better on pts.

We are a burst class. So yes we need the ability to burst. A crit guarantee on flank is only mildly useful on a class that crits a lot anyway. Adding a CD makes it a hardly useful "buff."

Wardens, templars, and nightblades all can set you off balance natively, as can werewolves and vampires. There are other none class specific sources as well. Point is, you're painting this like some unique thing to NBs and it isn't.

Sundered is nice but c'mon. It's minor breach, not major. It's a small bump in dps.

Not sure why you're lumping in major resolve with SA but let's break that down too. We are the only class without a native skill that gives major resolve. Instead we get it as a passive, and if you're running no heavy armor, you only get it for 6 seconds.

I know a lot of people like to pick out the things we have in our tool kits. DKs, templars, necros and sorcs all have access to more sustain, more native buffs, and more defenses. We can't even get brutally/sorcery on siphoning strikes. Instead they tied it to an attack that breaks stealth. Not exactly great for a cloak blade.

There's a reason why many NBs ran to get oakensoul. The amount of steps I have to go through before making a single attack is hilariously bad, and all those skills take up a lot of room.

Seems to me you don't know how to play your class effectively if you think Nightblade can only be effective as a ganker lmao. Please, do not make it sound like nightblade is terrible when its far from that. The moment you called something like healthy offering not so good when the skill heals me for 17k on live and implied something like fragmented shield is better gave me a good chuckle. Yes there is major cowardice added to the nightblade toolkit on PTS go have a look and you shall find.

Sometimes people mistakenly believe that they can use all NB skills.
Skill slots are finite and it's easy to prove your hype false.

DrSlaughtr

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

NB itself is overloaded with that minor and major cowardice, minor mending, even minor resolve and major evasion tied to one skill which now also reduces dodge roll costs. I don't see how suprise attack was seen as a weak spammable by zos when the new abomination that is jabs/sweeps exists.

You should really add context to these claims.

Minor cowardice is attached to power extraction that is rarely used, as it's a pile of garbage. Wardens also have access to this on an equally unused skill for PVP.

Not sure where you're getting major cowardice. We do not have that in our toolkit.

Yes we get minor mending from our not so great burst heal. Meanwhile DKs can access major mending from a skill and wardens can get it for free from a passive.

Minor resolve and evasion are both tied to mirage. How many ganks you see running around with that? Not many. Honestly can't remember the last time it was featured in a build video.

Let's touch on the person you quoted.

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

It's not best spammable on live. Concealed is now way better on pts.

We are a burst class. So yes we need the ability to burst. A crit guarantee on flank is only mildly useful on a class that crits a lot anyway. Adding a CD makes it a hardly useful "buff."

Wardens, templars, and nightblades all can set you off balance natively, as can werewolves and vampires. There are other none class specific sources as well. Point is, you're painting this like some unique thing to NBs and it isn't.

Sundered is nice but c'mon. It's minor breach, not major. It's a small bump in dps.

Not sure why you're lumping in major resolve with SA but let's break that down too. We are the only class without a native skill that gives major resolve. Instead we get it as a passive, and if you're running no heavy armor, you only get it for 6 seconds.

I know a lot of people like to pick out the things we have in our tool kits. DKs, templars, necros and sorcs all have access to more sustain, more native buffs, and more defenses. We can't even get brutally/sorcery on siphoning strikes. Instead they tied it to an attack that breaks stealth. Not exactly great for a cloak blade.

There's a reason why many NBs ran to get oakensoul. The amount of steps I have to go through before making a single attack is hilariously bad, and all those skills take up a lot of room.

Seems to me you don't know how to play your class effectively if you think Nightblade can only be effective as a ganker lmao. Please, do not make it sound like nightblade is terrible when its far from that. The moment you called something like healthy offering not so good when the skill heals me for 17k on live and implied something like fragmented shield is better gave me a good chuckle. Yes there is major cowardice added to the nightblade toolkit on PTS go have a look and you shall find.

I didn't say that are only effective as gankers. You're putting words in my mouth. However the class is built to operate from stealth primarily and I was clearly offering information from a stealth perspective.

I don't really care if healthy offering heals you for x amount. I never said it doesn't have a good tooltip. Of course it does. All the burst heals have similar calculations, so the heal is similar across classes at first glance

You have to compare it to other class heals and the passives they proc. For PVP, DKs, templars and necros have better burst heals. Sorcs and NBs are about the same, only because twilight requires double barring. Poor wardens are last.

I never said fragmented shield was better than anything. I simply was listing what other classes can do. When I make points I like to include actual information to support my claims.

I don't recall seeing major cowardice on any skill when I was on the pts and I don't see it in the patch notes, so feel free to inform me.

DrSlaughtr

IZZEFlameLash wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

Extinct_Solo_Player wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

NB itself is overloaded with that minor and major cowardice, minor mending, even minor resolve and major evasion tied to one skill which now also reduces dodge roll costs. I don't see how suprise attack was seen as a weak spammable by zos when the new abomination that is jabs/sweeps exists.

You should really add context to these claims.

Minor cowardice is attached to power extraction that is rarely used, as it's a pile of garbage. Wardens also have access to this on an equally unused skill for PVP.

Not sure where you're getting major cowardice. We do not have that in our toolkit.

Yes we get minor mending from our not so great burst heal. Meanwhile DKs can access major mending from a skill and wardens can get it for free from a passive.

Minor resolve and evasion are both tied to mirage. How many ganks you see running around with that? Not many. Honestly can't remember the last time it was featured in a build video.

Let's touch on the person you quoted.

Vetixio wrote: »

Surprise Attack is one of the most overloaded skills in the game and the best spammable in game. The guaranteed crit in PvP will make Stamblades burst even more crazy. It already applies the Sundered effect, sets target off balance, has high damage and provides the Nightblade with Major Resolve very overloaded without the guaranteed crit.

It's not best spammable on live. Concealed is now way better on pts.

We are a burst class. So yes we need the ability to burst. A crit guarantee on flank is only mildly useful on a class that crits a lot anyway. Adding a CD makes it a hardly useful "buff."

Wardens, templars, and nightblades all can set you off balance natively, as can werewolves and vampires. There are other none class specific sources as well. Point is, you're painting this like some unique thing to NBs and it isn't.

Sundered is nice but c'mon. It's minor breach, not major. It's a small bump in dps.

Not sure why you're lumping in major resolve with SA but let's break that down too. We are the only class without a native skill that gives major resolve. Instead we get it as a passive, and if you're running no heavy armor, you only get it for 6 seconds.

I know a lot of people like to pick out the things we have in our tool kits. DKs, templars, necros and sorcs all have access to more sustain, more native buffs, and more defenses. We can't even get brutally/sorcery on siphoning strikes. Instead they tied it to an attack that breaks stealth. Not exactly great for a cloak blade.

There's a reason why many NBs ran to get oakensoul. The amount of steps I have to go through before making a single attack is hilariously bad, and all those skills take up a lot of room.

Sundered is not bad. Minor Breach is harder to come by than Major Breach and most of skills with Minor Breach are not spammables except for Snipe/Puncture morph. Otherwise, they come from delayed sources or you have to make some specific builds to get it to get Minor Breach reliably. And with penetration being valued as is in PvP, I really don't see how readily accessible Minor Breach without having to build for it can be bad.

I didn't say sundered was bad. I said it's nice to have but no, it isn't a significant aspect of SA. Minor breach does not translate into a large dps bump.

w002exp

I've not seen any notes on major cowardice for NB either, so I too am interested to see where they stuck this.

FrankonPC

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

This is a buff for PVP NBs. Guaranteed crit will add to the burst and the loss of stun means you can control the timing of your stun with an offbalance medium attack. Makes it much easier to connect Assassins Will

Cloacl + high crit itself = once per 4 seconds guarantee crit from sa will be wasted most of the time.

Now you have the option to invest into crit damage for better burst. Try to adapt so a necromancer main player like myself dont have to teach you the game

honey, do you even listen? this "guarantee" crit every 4 seconds in pvp will be neutralise by cloack guarantee crit about 50% of the time, other 50 is crit chance itself, so we "get" only that they take stun from SA, so its JUST A NERF. And absolutely undeserved nerf.

Depends on how much you're cloaking in a fight. It's still boosting your realized crit chance. For non perma cloak blades this is a pretty large buff

DrSlaughtr

FrankonPC wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

This is a buff for PVP NBs. Guaranteed crit will add to the burst and the loss of stun means you can control the timing of your stun with an offbalance medium attack. Makes it much easier to connect Assassins Will

Cloacl + high crit itself = once per 4 seconds guarantee crit from sa will be wasted most of the time.

Now you have the option to invest into crit damage for better burst. Try to adapt so a necromancer main player like myself dont have to teach you the game

honey, do you even listen? this "guarantee" crit every 4 seconds in pvp will be neutralise by cloack guarantee crit about 50% of the time, other 50 is crit chance itself, so we "get" only that they take stun from SA, so its JUST A NERF. And absolutely undeserved nerf.

Depends on how much you're cloaking in a fight. It's still boosting your realized crit chance. For non perma cloak blades this is a pretty large buff

It isn't, though, because you will naturally crit anyway, and you aren't spamming a million surprise attacks. Even a brawler blade isn't going to stand there spamming 5 surprise attacks. At some point the target will require another damage attack. Meanwhile throughout that cooldown we are getting crit strikes anyway.

I thought I explained this pretty straight forward. Let me try again.

If I sit at a dummy from flank and spam SA -> LA forever, the chances of me hitting a crit strike is 52%. My first SA crits and puts me on a cooldown. I'm not being blocked from hitting a crit strike for 4 seconds. I can still crit, no matter the cooldown. So all along, I am more than likely hitting a crit strike anyway on every other SA. Then the CD ends and I hit SA. I get another guaranteed crit WHEN I WOULD HAVE LIKELY CRIT ANYWAY.

That's on a dummy. In real game against players, I am not going to hit enough SA's to benefit at all from the "buff" while losing the CC. That is a blanket nerf to the skill. In a month everyone will be made about concealed weapon because that will be what we have to use, even if we are stam based.

Didgerion

Jazraena wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please answer the question, @Vetixio. What CC is attached to Surprise Attack?

Surprise Attack: Cost: 2295
Stamina
.
Slash an enemy, dealing 3097 Physical Damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Attacking with Surprise Attack from the flank stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

My bad it has 2 CCs attached if you weave properly, there’s your answer lol.

We're talking about next patch. The Stun got removed. If by the second CC you mean Off Balance, ignoring how clunky it is, that is provided by the base ability Veiled Strike, and thus also by the other morph Concealed Weapon that is superior in every other way now.

So please, enlighten me.

Why would I use Surprise Attack?

Because you will wear medium armor and that is what you can sustain to spam. Also it is a very strong follow up skill when you open up with an ultimate. Cloak + Incap (crit)+ Surprise Attack (crit) + execute will be a strong combo. Then you can rinse and repeat.

DrSlaughtr

Didgerion wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please answer the question, @Vetixio. What CC is attached to Surprise Attack?

Surprise Attack: Cost: 2295
Stamina
.
Slash an enemy, dealing 3097 Physical Damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Attacking with Surprise Attack from the flank stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

My bad it has 2 CCs attached if you weave properly, there’s your answer lol.

We're talking about next patch. The Stun got removed. If by the second CC you mean Off Balance, ignoring how clunky it is, that is provided by the base ability Veiled Strike, and thus also by the other morph Concealed Weapon that is superior in every other way now.

So please, enlighten me.

Why would I use Surprise Attack?

Because you will wear medium armor and that is what you can sustain to spam. Also it is a very strong follow up skill when you open up with an ultimate. Cloak + Incap (crit)+ Surprise Attack (crit) + execute will be a strong combo. Then you can rinse and repeat.

That's not really true. The game no longer is black and white, Stam and mag. You can easily sustain concealed weapon by investing a little into mag and mixing your armor.

I haven't worn more than 4 medium since update 29.

FrankonPC

ninjagank wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

This is a buff for PVP NBs. Guaranteed crit will add to the burst and the loss of stun means you can control the timing of your stun with an offbalance medium attack. Makes it much easier to connect Assassins Will

Cloacl + high crit itself = once per 4 seconds guarantee crit from sa will be wasted most of the time.

Now you have the option to invest into crit damage for better burst. Try to adapt so a necromancer main player like myself dont have to teach you the game

honey, do you even listen? this "guarantee" crit every 4 seconds in pvp will be neutralise by cloack guarantee crit about 50% of the time, other 50 is crit chance itself, so we "get" only that they take stun from SA, so its JUST A NERF. And absolutely undeserved nerf.

Depends on how much you're cloaking in a fight. It's still boosting your realized crit chance. For non perma cloak blades this is a pretty large buff

It isn't, though, because you will naturally crit anyway, and you aren't spamming a million surprise attacks. Even a brawler blade isn't going to stand there spamming 5 surprise attacks. At some point the target will require another damage attack. Meanwhile throughout that cooldown we are getting crit strikes anyway.

I thought I explained this pretty straight forward. Let me try again.

If I sit at a dummy from flank and spam SA -> LA forever, the chances of me hitting a crit strike is 52%. My first SA crits and puts me on a cooldown. I'm not being blocked from hitting a crit strike for 4 seconds. I can still crit, no matter the cooldown. So all along, I am more than likely hitting a crit strike anyway on every other SA. Then the CD ends and I hit SA. I get another guaranteed crit WHEN I WOULD HAVE LIKELY CRIT ANYWAY.

That's on a dummy. In real game against players, I am not going to hit enough SA's to benefit at all from the "buff" while losing the CC. That is a blanket nerf to the skill. In a month everyone will be made about concealed weapon because that will be what we have to use, even if we are stam based.

I'll put it this way. If I have a 50% chance at surprise attack and I hit two consecutive surprise attacks with the live version, I have a 25% chance of going 0 and 2, a 50% chance of going 1 for 2 and a 25% chance of going 2 for 2.

With a guaranteed crit I have a guaranteed hit for the first hit, so with two surprise attacks I can never go 0 and 2, it's always at least 1 and 2 with a 50% chance on the next hit. Your chances of going 2 for 2 on crits is 50%, instead of 25%

My chances of landing crits are naturally higher in the second instance, despite having the same crit chance because of the guaranteed crit chance.

DrSlaughtr

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

This is a buff for PVP NBs. Guaranteed crit will add to the burst and the loss of stun means you can control the timing of your stun with an offbalance medium attack. Makes it much easier to connect Assassins Will

Cloacl + high crit itself = once per 4 seconds guarantee crit from sa will be wasted most of the time.

Now you have the option to invest into crit damage for better burst. Try to adapt so a necromancer main player like myself dont have to teach you the game

honey, do you even listen? this "guarantee" crit every 4 seconds in pvp will be neutralise by cloack guarantee crit about 50% of the time, other 50 is crit chance itself, so we "get" only that they take stun from SA, so its JUST A NERF. And absolutely undeserved nerf.

Depends on how much you're cloaking in a fight. It's still boosting your realized crit chance. For non perma cloak blades this is a pretty large buff

It isn't, though, because you will naturally crit anyway, and you aren't spamming a million surprise attacks. Even a brawler blade isn't going to stand there spamming 5 surprise attacks. At some point the target will require another damage attack. Meanwhile throughout that cooldown we are getting crit strikes anyway.

I thought I explained this pretty straight forward. Let me try again.

If I sit at a dummy from flank and spam SA -> LA forever, the chances of me hitting a crit strike is 52%. My first SA crits and puts me on a cooldown. I'm not being blocked from hitting a crit strike for 4 seconds. I can still crit, no matter the cooldown. So all along, I am more than likely hitting a crit strike anyway on every other SA. Then the CD ends and I hit SA. I get another guaranteed crit WHEN I WOULD HAVE LIKELY CRIT ANYWAY.

That's on a dummy. In real game against players, I am not going to hit enough SA's to benefit at all from the "buff" while losing the CC. That is a blanket nerf to the skill. In a month everyone will be made about concealed weapon because that will be what we have to use, even if we are stam based.

I'll put it this way. If I have a 50% chance at surprise attack and I hit two consecutive surprise attacks with the live version, I have a 25% chance of going 0 and 2, a 50% chance of going 1 for 2 and a 25% chance of going 2 for 2.

With a guaranteed crit I have a guaranteed hit for the first hit, so with two surprise attacks I can never go 0 and 2, it's always at least 1 and 2 with a 50% chance on the next hit. Your chances of going 2 for 2 on crits is 50%, instead of 25%

My chances of landing crits are naturally higher in the second instance, despite having the same crit chance because of the guaranteed crit chance.

That isn't how math works.

If you toss a quarter 10 times, every time has a 50% chance of landing heads. That doesn't mean you'll hit heads 5 times or of ten. You are just as likely to get tails every time as heads every time or any combination of the two.

Every time you hit a skill, proc a set, throw a light attack or pursue any other avenue of damage, you have a set chance to do critical damage.

That chance doesn't increase or decrease based on the number of attacks you make. It's flat and unchanging unless you add an additional modifier, like savagery, or a condition that forces a crit, like the old mechanical aquity.

The problem that I don't think you're getting is that a 4 second cool down on a skill that you will not be using for more than 4 second means you do not benefit from the effect.

We are not templars. We do not spam jabs for eternity. We have more in common with DKs. We use veiled strike to get the target into execute, and then we use an execute.

Maybe if the cool down was 2 seconds I'd be a little less hard on it but i'd still take the cc over any cooldown.

FrankonPC

ninjagank wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

This is a buff for PVP NBs. Guaranteed crit will add to the burst and the loss of stun means you can control the timing of your stun with an offbalance medium attack. Makes it much easier to connect Assassins Will

Cloacl + high crit itself = once per 4 seconds guarantee crit from sa will be wasted most of the time.

Now you have the option to invest into crit damage for better burst. Try to adapt so a necromancer main player like myself dont have to teach you the game

honey, do you even listen? this "guarantee" crit every 4 seconds in pvp will be neutralise by cloack guarantee crit about 50% of the time, other 50 is crit chance itself, so we "get" only that they take stun from SA, so its JUST A NERF. And absolutely undeserved nerf.

Depends on how much you're cloaking in a fight. It's still boosting your realized crit chance. For non perma cloak blades this is a pretty large buff

It isn't, though, because you will naturally crit anyway, and you aren't spamming a million surprise attacks. Even a brawler blade isn't going to stand there spamming 5 surprise attacks. At some point the target will require another damage attack. Meanwhile throughout that cooldown we are getting crit strikes anyway.

I thought I explained this pretty straight forward. Let me try again.

If I sit at a dummy from flank and spam SA -> LA forever, the chances of me hitting a crit strike is 52%. My first SA crits and puts me on a cooldown. I'm not being blocked from hitting a crit strike for 4 seconds. I can still crit, no matter the cooldown. So all along, I am more than likely hitting a crit strike anyway on every other SA. Then the CD ends and I hit SA. I get another guaranteed crit WHEN I WOULD HAVE LIKELY CRIT ANYWAY.

That's on a dummy. In real game against players, I am not going to hit enough SA's to benefit at all from the "buff" while losing the CC. That is a blanket nerf to the skill. In a month everyone will be made about concealed weapon because that will be what we have to use, even if we are stam based.

I'll put it this way. If I have a 50% chance at surprise attack and I hit two consecutive surprise attacks with the live version, I have a 25% chance of going 0 and 2, a 50% chance of going 1 for 2 and a 25% chance of going 2 for 2.

With a guaranteed crit I have a guaranteed hit for the first hit, so with two surprise attacks I can never go 0 and 2, it's always at least 1 and 2 with a 50% chance on the next hit. Your chances of going 2 for 2 on crits is 50%, instead of 25%

My chances of landing crits are naturally higher in the second instance, despite having the same crit chance because of the guaranteed crit chance.

That isn't how math works.

It's introductory statistics.

That chance doesn't increase or decrease based on the number of attacks you make. It's flat and unchanging unless you add an additional modifier, like savagery, or a condition that forces a crit, like the old mechanical aquity.

Surprise attack IS forcing a crit in this instance.

So,
you have a 50% of surprise attack critting or not critting. With an instance of 2 surprise attacks, there are 4 potential outcomes:

1st outcome: no crit/no crit

2nd outcome: crit/no crit

3rd outcome: no crit/crit

4th outcome: crit/crit

that leaves you with 1/4th of the time(25%) no crit/no crit
1/4th of the time or 25% crit/crit
2/4ths of the time, or 50% chance of having one surprise attack crit on the first or second surprise attack.

With the second option with guaranteed crit surprise attack you have a guaranteed crit on the first roll, so there's no chance of no crit/no crit. Therefore:

1st outcome: crit/crit

2nd outcome: crit/no crit

You have a 50% chance at crit/crit and a 50% chance at crit/no crit. Your chances of two consecutive crits in the second instance have doubled, increasing your chances for more dmg than the first instance.

Over the course of playing stamblade, over a large number of fights with a large sample size, your crit % will be higher with the new changes compared to the old ones. I tried to show it in this way because it's easier to see that your crit chance on your skills will go up, albeit not as high as the example here, but still higher than what your character sheet says. This isn't up for debate, it's just statistics. Or like you said, how math works.

Subjectively, I'd also rather have the off balance over the guaranteed stun on surprise attack. I think it works better for comboing more opponents. That IS subjective and preference though.

Jazraena

Didgerion wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Vetixio wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Please answer the question, @Vetixio. What CC is attached to Surprise Attack?

Surprise Attack: Cost: 2295
Stamina
.
Slash an enemy, dealing 3097 Physical Damage and applying the Sundered status effect. Attacking with Surprise Attack from the flank stuns the enemy for 3 seconds and sets them Off Balance.

My bad it has 2 CCs attached if you weave properly, there’s your answer lol.

We're talking about next patch. The Stun got removed. If by the second CC you mean Off Balance, ignoring how clunky it is, that is provided by the base ability Veiled Strike, and thus also by the other morph Concealed Weapon that is superior in every other way now.

So please, enlighten me.

Why would I use Surprise Attack?

Because you will wear medium armor and that is what you can sustain to spam. Also it is a very strong follow up skill when you open up with an ultimate. Cloak + Incap (crit)+ Surprise Attack (crit) + execute will be a strong combo. Then you can rinse and repeat.

Currently I'm Stam and Medium heavy, sure. But I've been down the Mag-Spammable on a stamchar route with another class before, so I'm reasonably confident I can make Concealed Weapon work. As a follow on it's, once again, the weaker morph.

What else?

Szende

I might talk against myself, since i really played around the SA stun in pvp, as something to drain the enemy's sustain, break their combos and just constantly create an opening. Never liked to play pure ganker...

But as i read, people start with Surprise Attack from Cloak? Like... i either start with a fully charged Heavy Attack and that turned into a Surprise Attack or any other skill. In that case cloak makes my HA crit, then my SA also going to be crit. This change actually nice for gankers! Can invest more in Crit DMG, might lower the chance which gives more room for actual damage... For me its a very strong nerf, even might bury my playstyle but for gankers this is a sweet treat. Still sad about it

DrSlaughtr

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

FrankonPC wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

Falcon_of_light wrote: »

Ankael07 wrote: »

This is a buff for PVP NBs. Guaranteed crit will add to the burst and the loss of stun means you can control the timing of your stun with an offbalance medium attack. Makes it much easier to connect Assassins Will

Cloacl + high crit itself = once per 4 seconds guarantee crit from sa will be wasted most of the time.

Now you have the option to invest into crit damage for better burst. Try to adapt so a necromancer main player like myself dont have to teach you the game

honey, do you even listen? this "guarantee" crit every 4 seconds in pvp will be neutralise by cloack guarantee crit about 50% of the time, other 50 is crit chance itself, so we "get" only that they take stun from SA, so its JUST A NERF. And absolutely undeserved nerf.

Depends on how much you're cloaking in a fight. It's still boosting your realized crit chance. For non perma cloak blades this is a pretty large buff

It isn't, though, because you will naturally crit anyway, and you aren't spamming a million surprise attacks. Even a brawler blade isn't going to stand there spamming 5 surprise attacks. At some point the target will require another damage attack. Meanwhile throughout that cooldown we are getting crit strikes anyway.

I thought I explained this pretty straight forward. Let me try again.

If I sit at a dummy from flank and spam SA -> LA forever, the chances of me hitting a crit strike is 52%. My first SA crits and puts me on a cooldown. I'm not being blocked from hitting a crit strike for 4 seconds. I can still crit, no matter the cooldown. So all along, I am more than likely hitting a crit strike anyway on every other SA. Then the CD ends and I hit SA. I get another guaranteed crit WHEN I WOULD HAVE LIKELY CRIT ANYWAY.

That's on a dummy. In real game against players, I am not going to hit enough SA's to benefit at all from the "buff" while losing the CC. That is a blanket nerf to the skill. In a month everyone will be made about concealed weapon because that will be what we have to use, even if we are stam based.

I'll put it this way. If I have a 50% chance at surprise attack and I hit two consecutive surprise attacks with the live version, I have a 25% chance of going 0 and 2, a 50% chance of going 1 for 2 and a 25% chance of going 2 for 2.

With a guaranteed crit I have a guaranteed hit for the first hit, so with two surprise attacks I can never go 0 and 2, it's always at least 1 and 2 with a 50% chance on the next hit. Your chances of going 2 for 2 on crits is 50%, instead of 25%

My chances of landing crits are naturally higher in the second instance, despite having the same crit chance because of the guaranteed crit chance.

That isn't how math works.

It's introductory statistics.

That chance doesn't increase or decrease based on the number of attacks you make. It's flat and unchanging unless you add an additional modifier, like savagery, or a condition that forces a crit, like the old mechanical aquity.

Surprise attack IS forcing a crit in this instance.

So,
you have a 50% of surprise attack critting or not critting. With an instance of 2 surprise attacks, there are 4 potential outcomes:

1st outcome: no crit/no crit

2nd outcome: crit/no crit

3rd outcome: no crit/crit

4th outcome: crit/crit

that leaves you with 1/4th of the time(25%) no crit/no crit
1/4th of the time or 25% crit/crit
2/4ths of the time, or 50% chance of having one surprise attack crit on the first or second surprise attack.

With the second option with guaranteed crit surprise attack you have a guaranteed crit on the first roll, so there's no chance of no crit/no crit. Therefore:

1st outcome: crit/crit

2nd outcome: crit/no crit

You have a 50% chance at crit/crit and a 50% chance at crit/no crit. Your chances of two consecutive crits in the second instance have doubled, increasing your chances for more dmg than the first instance.

Over the course of playing stamblade, over a large number of fights with a large sample size, your crit % will be higher with the new changes compared to the old ones. I tried to show it in this way because it's easier to see that your crit chance on your skills will go up, albeit not as high as the example here, but still higher than what your character sheet says. This isn't up for debate, it's just statistics. Or like you said, how math works.

Subjectively, I'd also rather have the off balance over the guaranteed stun on surprise attack. I think it works better for comboing more opponents. That IS subjective and preference though.

It's not introductory statistics.

This is what you're trying to frame this as.

I tell you to pick a number from 1 to 10. I give you ten guesses, so you will ultimately land on the right number. Each time you miss, your chances of guessing correctly increases because it's guaranteed that you'll eventually get one right.

In this instance, there is no guarantee in that 4 second cooldown you will crit. You can throw 10 surprise attacks and just as easily crit zero times as 10 times or there in between. Each single press of the button has it's own equal chance.

So if your crit chance is 50%, then each individual SA has 50% chance to crit.

If you lead with an SA, here is how it work.

0 - Auto Crit - Start CD
1 - 50% chance
2 - 50% chance
3 - 50% chance
4 - 50% chance
5 - Auto Crit - Start CD

So I can see why you might think that is helpful, but it's not.

Even if I led with a heavy attack over SA, I had 50% chance to crit those two auto attacks anyway. I could have just as easily done as not, just as I could have easily crit all those SA's while in cooldown.

Now the second part of this is I'm RARELY going to throw that many spammables. If I don't have the target in execute in 5 seconds I'm not killing them. For most targets this is what I'll do. (Not including LAs).

0 - Heavy Attack
1 - SA Auto Crit - Start CD
2 - SA - 50%
3 - Executioner or Whirling Blades

That isn't a major buff. It's minor at best because all you did was take away a 50% chance that I would've crit anyway on ONE SA. Meanwhile they removed a CC that was only taken away to justify the guaranteed flank crit.

If you made me weigh a CC that I know will help me stop a runner vs a flank crit with a CD that I don't need, I'll take the CC.