Medium Weaving Meta Cancelled

VoidCommander

Just giving our PTS testing brothers and sisters a heads up that Empower will only affect fully charged heavy attacks when the patch goes live. "Medium Weaving" is dead before it was truly born. You will just have to live with the nerfs. No escape. See yall for Update 36. Divines forbid I get excited to learn a new niche mechanic.

axi

Source?

remosito

awesome news... assuming true... was proposed plenty of times here and elsewhere.. glad they listened..

though I guess that will make HA weave with lightning/resto lag more behind LA weave as first ticks wont be buffed anymore.. unless they upped the 80%..

anyway.. important part is MA weave is dead...

shadyjane62

Good now I don't have to struggle to learn something I immediately have to unlearn.

fizl101

axi wrote: »

Source?

This was shared on a discord I am on. Not sure which one it came from

Finedaible

Well, it's something at least. Let's hope they address the many pvp skills and sets affected by the Empower change as well so that we aren't left with more useless skills for the next 3 months or so.

francesinhalover

would be godtier if they buffed for the patch some of the weak dots like necrotic orb, soul etc

and godslayer tier if they made boneyard have a 20 sec morph just so i can do easier rotations hahah, we all know it wont happen.

thank god we have skinnycheeks, the guy is amazing

alternatelder

"This buff now increases your damage against monsters with Heavy Attacks by 80%"

I thought we already knew it was only heavy attacks...?

acastanza_ESO

alternatelder wrote: »

"This buff now increases your damage against monsters with Heavy Attacks by 80%"

I thought we already knew it was only heavy attacks...?

There isn't really such a thing as a medium attack in the game, they're partially charged heavy attacks, so anything that blanket affects "heavy attacks" will affect them unless specifically restricted to "fully charged" heavy attacks. Thus, empower was buffing these partially charged attacks. This fix (assuming true) will prevent that. Thank goodness.

Foxtrot39

Have to read the full post more often

merpins

alternatelder wrote: »

"This buff now increases your damage against monsters with Heavy Attacks by 80%"

I thought we already knew it was only heavy attacks...?

If you hold down the attack button, you can let go before you finish charging the heavy attack, resulting in a medium attack. But anything more than a light attack is considered a heavy attack by the game. So they have to specify in the coding that it only effects fully charged heavy attacks.

Which is both good news and bad news. On one hand, it means there won't be a medium attack weaving meta, which from thf looks of parses was really strong. On the other hand, by making it so it only effects fully charged heavy attacks, it tells us ZoS has no intention of making Empowered good. It's going to be a niche skill that no one cares about except heavy attack builds, which are not going to be very good next patch because of the fully charged heavy attack nerf.

So I'd say overall it's not a good change. Heavy attack builds might be a little stronger next patch than live, but not by much. Meanwhile, Empower on oakensoul and class skills becomes a skill no one cares about when it used to be a staple due to the light attack buff it gave. It's basically just a dead buff now outside of a very niche playstyle that's getting inadvertently nerfed. It's a slight buff, but any balancing changes that push heavy attacks lower, and it'll be a nerf.

Amottica

VoidCommander wrote: »

Just giving our PTS testing brothers and sisters a heads up that Empower will only affect fully charged heavy attacks when the patch goes live. "Medium Weaving" is dead before it was truly born. You will just have to live with the nerfs. No escape. See yall for Update 36. Divines forbid I get excited to learn a new niche mechanic.

What is your data concerning LA vs MA weaving?

That will determine what works best.

Edit: I see an Ss of a comment that seems to come from Rich that talks about empower. But if the weaving damage scales more off how long we charge the attack and LA is no longer giving additional damage, then it would seem that a LA would be only slightly better. That would be fine.

remosito

merpins wrote: »

, it tells us ZoS has no intention of making Empowered good.

So I'd say overall it's not a good change. Heavy attack builds might be a little stronger next patch than live, but not by much. . It's a slight buff, but any balancing changes that push heavy attacks lower, and it'll be a nerf.

they can as well push them higher by boosting empower to > 80%.

empower is now solidly decoupled from LA, MA and PvP. So no interactions with any of those. easy balancing..

merpins

remosito wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

, it tells us ZoS has no intention of making Empowered good.

So I'd say overall it's not a good change. Heavy attack builds might be a little stronger next patch than live, but not by much. . It's a slight buff, but any balancing changes that push heavy attacks lower, and it'll be a nerf.

they can as well push them higher by boosting empower to > 80%.

empower is now solidly decoupled from LA, MA and PvP. So no interactions with any of those. easy balancing..

True. 100% damage or 120% damage to fully charged heavy attacks would be a thing to test. I doubt it'll happen this coming patch, but maybe the next pts.

alternatelder

merpins wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

"This buff now increases your damage against monsters with Heavy Attacks by 80%"

I thought we already knew it was only heavy attacks...?

If you hold down the attack button, you can let go before you finish charging the heavy attack, resulting in a medium attack. But anything more than a light attack is considered a heavy attack by the game. So they have to specify in the coding that it only effects fully charged heavy attacks.

Which is both good news and bad news. On one hand, it means there won't be a medium attack weaving meta, which from thf looks of parses was really strong. On the other hand, by making it so it only effects fully charged heavy attacks, it tells us ZoS has no intention of making Empowered good. It's going to be a niche skill that no one cares about except heavy attack builds, which are not going to be very good next patch because of the fully charged heavy attack nerf.

So I'd say overall it's not a good change. Heavy attack builds might be a little stronger next patch than live, but not by much. Meanwhile, Empower on oakensoul and class skills becomes a skill no one cares about when it used to be a staple due to the light attack buff it gave. It's basically just a dead buff now outside of a very niche playstyle that's getting inadvertently nerfed. It's a slight buff, but any balancing changes that push heavy attacks lower, and it'll be a nerf.

I know what medium attacks are, I used to do it often way back when. I only posted because that's what I saw in the notes, I didn't realize it was bugged though.

boi_anachronism_

Thank the friggin powers 🥳 they need to fix empower now though because it's basically excess garbage on certain skills now. Ambush being one.

boi_anachronism_

alternatelder wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

alternatelder wrote: »

"This buff now increases your damage against monsters with Heavy Attacks by 80%"

I thought we already knew it was only heavy attacks...?

If you hold down the attack button, you can let go before you finish charging the heavy attack, resulting in a medium attack. But anything more than a light attack is considered a heavy attack by the game. So they have to specify in the coding that it only effects fully charged heavy attacks.

Which is both good news and bad news. On one hand, it means there won't be a medium attack weaving meta, which from thf looks of parses was really strong. On the other hand, by making it so it only effects fully charged heavy attacks, it tells us ZoS has no intention of making Empowered good. It's going to be a niche skill that no one cares about except heavy attack builds, which are not going to be very good next patch because of the fully charged heavy attack nerf.

So I'd say overall it's not a good change. Heavy attack builds might be a little stronger next patch than live, but not by much. Meanwhile, Empower on oakensoul and class skills becomes a skill no one cares about when it used to be a staple due to the light attack buff it gave. It's basically just a dead buff now outside of a very niche playstyle that's getting inadvertently nerfed. It's a slight buff, but any balancing changes that push heavy attacks lower, and it'll be a nerf.

I know what medium attacks are, I used to do it often way back when. I only posted because that's what I saw in the notes, I didn't realize it was bugged though.

Not bugged, just an oversight. You have to specify for coding purposes as someone already mentioned.

AinSoph

fizl101 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Source?

This was shared on a discord I am on. Not sure which one it came from

Good thing this happened is a very obscure discord and not in public where people can know ahead of time.

neferpitou73

fizl101 wrote: »

axi wrote: »

Source?

This was shared on a discord I am on. Not sure which one it came from

So we're relying on discord updates to communicate important game info now....

@ZOS_GinaBruno I think some sort of announcement of this should've been made here instead of a random discord comment.

Lynxyn

francesinhalover wrote: »

would be godtier if they buffed for the patch some of the weak dots like necrotic orb, soul etc

and godslayer tier if they made boneyard have a 20 sec morph just so i can do easier rotations hahah, we all know it wont happen.

thank god we have skinnycheeks, the guy is amazing

Orb been perma on bars for like 52 years could survive with it not being borderline mandatory for a while.

Lynxyn

Amottica wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Just giving our PTS testing brothers and sisters a heads up that Empower will only affect fully charged heavy attacks when the patch goes live. "Medium Weaving" is dead before it was truly born. You will just have to live with the nerfs. No escape. See yall for Update 36. Divines forbid I get excited to learn a new niche mechanic.

What is your data concerning LA vs MA weaving?

That will determine what works best.

Edit: I see an Ss of a comment that seems to come from Rich that talks about empower. But if the weaving damage scales more off how long we charge the attack and LA is no longer giving additional damage, then it would seem that a LA would be only slightly better. That would be fine.

The only reason medium weaving was a thing was because an empower oversight was being exploited and it basically doubled the damage of a medium vs a light. Assuming there is a DPS difference at all it's going to be completely irrelevant like probably in the sub 1k range and you're just going to inevitably LA weave.

Amottica

Lynxyn wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Just giving our PTS testing brothers and sisters a heads up that Empower will only affect fully charged heavy attacks when the patch goes live. "Medium Weaving" is dead before it was truly born. You will just have to live with the nerfs. No escape. See yall for Update 36. Divines forbid I get excited to learn a new niche mechanic.

What is your data concerning LA vs MA weaving?

That will determine what works best.

Edit: I see an Ss of a comment that seems to come from Rich that talks about empower. But if the weaving damage scales more off how long we charge the attack and LA is no longer giving additional damage, then it would seem that a LA would be only slightly better. That would be fine.

The only reason medium weaving was a thing was because an empower oversight was being exploited and it basically doubled the damage of a medium vs a light. Assuming there is a DPS difference at all it's going to be completely irrelevant like probably in the sub 1k range and you're just going to inevitably LA weave.

That was rather clear when I made the edit.

My point in the edit is that if LA is no longer doing damage that is disproportionally larger than the channel time relative to basic attacks in general that the difference in damage for doing a MA vs a LA would be rather minor compared to now.

pklemming

Lynxyn wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VoidCommander wrote: »

Just giving our PTS testing brothers and sisters a heads up that Empower will only affect fully charged heavy attacks when the patch goes live. "Medium Weaving" is dead before it was truly born. You will just have to live with the nerfs. No escape. See yall for Update 36. Divines forbid I get excited to learn a new niche mechanic.

What is your data concerning LA vs MA weaving?

That will determine what works best.

Edit: I see an Ss of a comment that seems to come from Rich that talks about empower. But if the weaving damage scales more off how long we charge the attack and LA is no longer giving additional damage, then it would seem that a LA would be only slightly better. That would be fine.

The only reason medium weaving was a thing was because an empower oversight was being exploited and it basically doubled the damage of a medium vs a light. Assuming there is a DPS difference at all it's going to be completely irrelevant like probably in the sub 1k range and you're just going to inevitably LA weave.

[snip] Way to go ahead and adjust the difficulty of content appropriate to the nerfs. Thanks, too, for not reducing BRP bosses, I am sure that will make it super fun for people there in u35.

We all know the 10% is not in line with the damage reduction, making content less accessible on a patch that highlighted accessibility as one of the main features.

Poor choices and decisions from beginning to end, reflected in last months figures as people just leave.

An almost overwhelming dislike of this patch and a request to postpone and roll back these changes was completely ignored by ZoS, because, well, players enjoy a game that is less fun....

[snip]

Loving the responses from ZOS all through this patch. They really do appreciate their players....

[edited for bashing]

Ksariyu

Just wanna comment on the hilarious irony of half these posts. For the record OP, thank you for being one of the few people who actually saw this for what it was: Raising the skill ceiling without raising the damage ceiling.

For everyone else complaining about it, remember that this whole "Ugh why should we have to learn MA weaving? It's a bug from empower, it's not even an intended effect," is the exact same sentiment a lot of us had about LA weaving, which you all loved so dearly that they basically made everything in the game since to revolve around that one bug.

I'm glad the devs listened and made some changes, truly. But this is also a great example of why its basically impossible for them to make combat fun. Even the tiny community doing endgame right now has such vastly different opinions on what makes combat good, all driven by conflicting principles as to what counts as skill. Guess what, MA weaving was harder. Y'all should have wanted something to push your skills more, right? I guess all the "git gud and learn to LA weave" was only relevant when it was something you could already do.

pklemming

Ksariyu wrote: »

Just wanna comment on the hilarious irony of half these posts. For the record OP, thank you for being one of the few people who actually saw this for what it was: Raising the skill ceiling without raising the damage ceiling.

For everyone else complaining about it, remember that this whole "Ugh why should we have to learn MA weaving? It's a bug from empower, it's not even an intended effect," is the exact same sentiment a lot of us had about LA weaving, which you all loved so dearly that they basically made everything in the game since to revolve around that one bug.

I'm glad the devs listened and made some changes, truly. But this is also a great example of why its basically impossible for them to make combat fun. Even the tiny community doing endgame right now has such vastly different opinions on what makes combat good, all driven by conflicting principles as to what counts as skill. Guess what, MA weaving was harder. Y'all should have wanted something to push your skills more, right? I guess all the "git gud and learn to LA weave" was only relevant when it was something you could already do.

Yeah, you don't get it, but that is fine. MA weaving wasn't a major issue. If you thought that was what concerned us, you have not been following closely, and/or you don't do end game content.

boi_anachronism_

Ksariyu wrote: »

Just wanna comment on the hilarious irony of half these posts. For the record OP, thank you for being one of the few people who actually saw this for what it was: Raising the skill ceiling without raising the damage ceiling.

For everyone else complaining about it, remember that this whole "Ugh why should we have to learn MA weaving? It's a bug from empower, it's not even an intended effect," is the exact same sentiment a lot of us had about LA weaving, which you all loved so dearly that they basically made everything in the game since to revolve around that one bug.

I'm glad the devs listened and made some changes, truly. But this is also a great example of why its basically impossible for them to make combat fun. Even the tiny community doing endgame right now has such vastly different opinions on what makes combat good, all driven by conflicting principles as to what counts as skill. Guess what, MA weaving was harder. Y'all should have wanted something to push your skills more, right? I guess all the "git gud and learn to LA weave" was only relevant when it was something you could already do.

It did raise the damage ceiling. MA was clocking an additional 12k+ over and above what a LA rotation was. That widened the skill gap significantly. Additionally LA weaving is not remotely confined to end game. Everyone that plays in vet level content light weaves. We aren't talking about . 01%. On top of that most end game players could ALREADY MA weave. It was the meta prior to summerset. Nefas talks about this. So basically anyone who started playing since then would have been at a big disadvantage but all the endgame players who have been around for years would have, again, been fine.

VaranisArano

Color me not surprised that:

A. We're getting some completely untested changes in the Live patch.

B. We were first informed of this change on Discord, not the forums.

Man, it's been quite the PTS cycle, hasn't it?

Ksariyu

pklemming wrote: »

Yeah, you don't get it, but that is fine. MA weaving wasn't a major issue. If you thought that was what concerned us, you have not been following closely, and/or you don't do end game content.

Really? I haven't been paying attention? Look below your comment for a reference to a popular endgame player's video about how the MA weaving meta is bad. Look also to these comments from several posts around the PTS forums:

arkadiusz1992eb17_ESO wrote: »

Medium Weaving lets go in the name of accesibility

shadyjane62 wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

I disagree the ceiling is higher than before because medium attack weaving is pretty hard. Like really hard.

I don't even understand what medium attack weaving is? But I'll bet even though I've played for 8 years, I won't be able to do it.

Too fine a line in when you hit the button.

This one is from an entire thread entitled "Medium Weaving Needs to Go."

BahometZ wrote: »

Couldn't agree more, medium weaving currently does the most damage on pts and is the most challenging to pull off. This will further raise the ceiling. Add this to the long list of issues with this upcoming patch. Such a resounding failure.

And for my favorite (Note the author):

pklemming wrote: »

Oh, and thanks for the medium attack end game meta.... Yeah, thanks for that......

Like, bro. Please.

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

It did raise the damage ceiling. MA was clocking an additional 12k+ over and above what a LA rotation was. That widened the skill gap significantly. Additionally LA weaving is not remotely confined to end game. Everyone that plays in vet level content light weaves. We aren't talking about . 01%. On top of that most end game players could ALREADY MA weave. It was the meta prior to summerset. Nefas talks about this. So basically anyone who started playing since then would have been at a big disadvantage but all the endgame players who have been around for years would have, again, been fine.

It's clocking about 12k over what LA weaving gets on the PTS. It's right around where LA weaving is now on live (And with the extra dummy buffs). And yes, LA weaving is pretty much confined to endgame. You're not going to see the new guy running his first delve weaving. Just because it's not exclusively in vDLC HM Trials doesn't mean it's not mostly an endgame technique. Finally, even in the video you mention, Nefas himself addresses how he can't MA weave as well as he could. It'll still be an adjustment even for players who were around post-Morrowind. And even then, there are trifecta-earning players who started after Summerset, and those players are included in the group that's going to need to learn MA weaving.