Why make winter's revenge only viable for staves?

Arjuna1696

Running this skill on a stamwarden added class flavor. Why take it away? Wasn't part of the point of hybridization to increase the skill choice diversity between mag and stam? Doesn't this change work in the opposite direction? Make it make sense!

MindOfTheSwarm

I agree that they should have simply buffed it’s damage, but maybe it’s because Stamden does not have as much of a serious DPS issue as Magden does. That being said, you can always run a staff backbar on your hybrid.

Stx

I scratched my head when I read this. Very odd and restricting change. I don't believe there is a single class skill in the game that is effected by a specific weapon type.

Sandman929

Stx wrote: »

I scratched my head when I read this. Very odd and restricting change. I don't believe there is a single class skill in the game that is effected by a specific weapon type.

One of those "outliers" ZoS loves, which is what they do when they don't know what else to do.
How does a class skill favor a specific weapon? I'd love to hear some dev thoughts on this *&#$. Give us some lore on how Wardens get weaker with one ability when a staff isn't in their hands, ZOS...really sell the BS

TheGreatBlackBear

Running a staff on stamden just might be meta next patch anyway. Now you can double dip and run a lightning staff.

MashmalloMan

This is the problem hybridization has caused. They should of spent this update focusing on improving morph choices, make them mean something. Improving passives and class identity.

Instead, they're applying bandaids. Ridiculous. Since when did mag players exclusively use Destruction Staves? "Play as you want."

Winter's Revenge already does less damage than the standard they claimed to follow of 14% dps a melee spammable.

So in other words, +20% for Destruction Staff, but -10% damage for every other weapon. Link below with tests:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/613494/static-dot-standards-not-matching-up#latest

LeonAkando

The premise of this isn't necessarily bad.
This is ZOS' way of trying to encourage a cryomancer/frost mage archetype.

Should have put it into the warden passive instead though, something like "you deal an additional 10% frost damage when wielding a Frost Destruction Staff".
That would make Magden actually run frost staves...

Everest_Lionheart

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Running a staff on stamden just might be meta next patch anyway. Now you can double dip and run a lightning staff.

I was running a vMA staff backbar on Stamden before stampede became the meta with 2H. It was always a viable build, this gives me a little hope that my hybrid den will be good again except that it’s Khajiit and the crit nerfs hurt it more than anything else.

TheGreatBlackBear

LeonAkando wrote: »

The premise of this isn't necessarily bad.
This is ZOS' way of trying to encourage a cryomancer/frost mage archetype.

Should have put it into the warden passive instead though, something like "you deal an additional 10% frost damage when wielding a Frost Destruction Staff".
That would make Magden actually run frost staves...

No not really. Because it would still be competing with inferno's 10% buff to LAs, HAs, Cliff Racer, and other single target dots. Lightning staves would also provide the same 10% buff to WW by virtue of buffing all aoes while also buffing Shalks, wall, and orbs. That frost staff passive would have to be something like +100% frost damage to maybe make it competitive.

LeonAkando

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

The premise of this isn't necessarily bad.
This is ZOS' way of trying to encourage a cryomancer/frost mage archetype.

Should have put it into the warden passive instead though, something like "you deal an additional 10% frost damage when wielding a Frost Destruction Staff".
That would make Magden actually run frost staves...

No not really. Because it would still be competing with inferno's 10% buff to LAs, HAs, Cliff Racer, and other single target dots. Lightning staves would also provide the same 10% buff to WW by virtue of buffing all aoes while also buffing Shalks, wall, and orbs. That frost staff passive would have to be something like +100% frost damage to maybe make it competitive.

While I agree it may not be enough overall, 100% is definitely overkill lol.

I've said it a thousand times but the way Tri-Focus passive works just makes no sense.

Inferno buff should be +% DOT Damage, just like how MagDKs stack a ton of dots and they are the fire archetype.
Lightning should be +% Direct Damage, just like how MagSorc deal mostly direct damage and they are the shock archetype.
Frost should be +% Crit Chance, to give a "shatter" feel, and correlate with their brittle debuff.

Naturally due to Frost's defensive morphs I would strive to balance it where only MagDen considered Frost their BIS staff.

MudcrabAttack

I thought I heard spaghetti collide with a wall. Either way melee / bow builds would still get a lot out of it to gain the 10% crit damage from the glacial passive.

If they want dps wardens to apply brittle, I wonder whey they made them so weak.

ESO_Nightingale

i think this was a really weird choice too. actually think it'd make more sense to restrict a damage buff of this type to just the frost staff. stamina is just going to run a destruction staff on the backbar to proc this buff to winter's revenge anyway. so it kinda doesn't matter anyway. i understand their reasoning for doing this, but at the same time it's just not particularly a great idea to follow through with.

FrancisCrawford

One of my favorite characters is a bow-bow warden, and he barely uses the bow for anything. I.e., he should have been staff-based/hybrid a long time ago.

Norith_Gilheart_Flail

This makes perfect sense, unless you're deliberately ignoring all the threads focusing on frost mage and making it a viable build.

They SHOULD be buffing abilities with specific weapon conditions in mind, that way, either Stamina or Magicka for any other class doesn't get the benefits outside of the intended scope.

Winters Revenge is for Frost Wardens, with Staves. End of Story.

Nathyiel

I suppose they want feedback on this specific change.

Design
Very specific buff like that only show that there's a bigger balance problem between weapon and class. So I think it's a specific test for something else that might not come in this update.

Context
Since it's battleground focus patch, I can only suppose this change is aimed at PvP. It's Destruction staff only, so this skill can't be on back bar with a Restoration staff. Or did you want for Warden to play with Frost staff instead ? smaller heal but more shield ?

Crushing Wall change
With Crushing wall change, Wall of Element will more likely be preferred over Winter Revenge.


TLDR
Strange very specific change to further change in mind. Probably to late for this update.

Lughlongarm

Reason is simple, ZOS made a huge fundamental change to the game(hybridization) and they are still trying to figure out how to balance this mess.

-Until they will figure it out, they are coming up with all these little tricks to limit potential power creep .
Winter's revenge as a high damage dot, was designed for Magden due to underperforming dps compared to Stamden.
Now that Mag/Stam distinction is no longer relevant, they basically recreating the "Magden" by attaching Winter's revenge to a destro staff.

Its a very "dirty" way to balance this skill, my guess is that this is only a temporary solution.

Darkstorne

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Winters Revenge is for Frost Wardens, with Staves. End of Story.

"Play the way you want! So long as the way you want is this one specific way."

I have a MagDen who wields a greatsword. Because battlemages are a thing in TES. But apparently, not a thing in ESO which hilariously prides itself on build diversity and playstyle options.

ESO_Nightingale

Darkstorne wrote: »

Zavijah_Arventi wrote: »

Winters Revenge is for Frost Wardens, with Staves. End of Story.

"Play the way you want! So long as the way you want is this one specific way."

I have a MagDen who wields a greatsword. Because battlemages are a thing in TES. But apparently, not a thing in ESO which hilariously prides itself on build diversity and playstyle options.

i'm one of the people known for frost warden and even i think it's not a good idea. Incentivising a gameplay style with effects synergistic to that playstyle isn't the same as locking damage off of a key skill from all other playstyles that need it.

EF321

LeonAkando wrote: »

The premise of this isn't necessarily bad.
This is ZOS' way of trying to encourage a cryomancer/frost mage archetype.

Should have put it into the warden passive instead though, something like "you deal an additional 10% frost damage when wielding a Frost Destruction Staff".
That would make Magden actually run frost staves...

Well, some time ago I was using winter's revenge in cyrodiil from resto backbar while having ice staff front... am still cryomancer, but would not benefit from this... change.

Firey_Hellhound

I get the basic idea of what they were thinking, but I agree the implementation is just plain weird. If the idea is to give Magdens a specific buff, as people has said above place it as a passive instead not tie it to specific weapon line, this begins to open a door through which I feel we should not tread.

And what about those Madgens who use a resto staff? OK so they may not normally use this skill, but, if the idea is diversify builds etc, then why exclude them?

I also think the idea of adding an extra dmg %age boost in the passive if they are using a Frost Staff may balance the difference to what ZoS have attempted and where players see where it 'should' be.

ToRelax

They've made changes supposed to increase the range of competitive builds which can use a skill but end up merely shifting it (hybridization), then restrict how well different builds can use skills again in an attempt to "fix" the primary effect of the previous changes. There never seemed to be much understanding for how changes will effect the way players build their characters, as if player's builds just didn't change in response to updates and they could adjust them in a vacuum.

ADarklore

This change just goes to show that ZOS has absolutely no direction anymore. This current patch is a fiasco, and now they're in such disarray trying to figure out how not to admit being wrong, while at the same time trying to chart a different course without rolling anything back. They want to push hybridization, and now... they clearly aren't so sure what they're doing as noted by this change. Go figure. I'm just waiting for a sudden mass exodus of devs as ESO begins to founder like DCUO has been for years.

MindOfTheSwarm

LeonAkando wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

The premise of this isn't necessarily bad.
This is ZOS' way of trying to encourage a cryomancer/frost mage archetype.

Should have put it into the warden passive instead though, something like "you deal an additional 10% frost damage when wielding a Frost Destruction Staff".
That would make Magden actually run frost staves...

No not really. Because it would still be competing with inferno's 10% buff to LAs, HAs, Cliff Racer, and other single target dots. Lightning staves would also provide the same 10% buff to WW by virtue of buffing all aoes while also buffing Shalks, wall, and orbs. That frost staff passive would have to be something like +100% frost damage to maybe make it competitive.

While I agree it may not be enough overall, 100% is definitely overkill lol.

I've said it a thousand times but the way Tri-Focus passive works just makes no sense.

Inferno buff should be +% DOT Damage, just like how MagDKs stack a ton of dots and they are the fire archetype.
Lightning should be +% Direct Damage, just like how MagSorc deal mostly direct damage and they are the shock archetype.
Frost should be +% Crit Chance, to give a "shatter" feel, and correlate with their brittle debuff.

Naturally due to Frost's defensive morphs I would strive to balance it where only MagDen considered Frost their BIS staff.

Disagree with this. I’m all for Crit Chance being added to Frost Staves. But having Inferno only buff DoT’s will make it never used.

The best thing to do is to split them into separate skill lines and give them unique effects.

VaranisArano

I think that the combat team that makes such a big deal out of standardization shouldn't be pulling out a one trick pony like "This class skill performs better when you use a specific weapon" to try to balance their game.

Unless Winters Revenge is the canary in the coal mine, and we can shortly expect a whole raft of class skills to be balanced for builds using specific weapons. In which case...ugh.

francesinhalover

because if magwarden gets buffed, stam warden also gets buffed. so we never reach a situation where mag and stam do near the same dmg.

So this change tbh is good, i see no issue with it.

TheGreatBlackBear

LeonAkando wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

The premise of this isn't necessarily bad.
This is ZOS' way of trying to encourage a cryomancer/frost mage archetype.

Should have put it into the warden passive instead though, something like "you deal an additional 10% frost damage when wielding a Frost Destruction Staff".
That would make Magden actually run frost staves...

No not really. Because it would still be competing with inferno's 10% buff to LAs, HAs, Cliff Racer, and other single target dots. Lightning staves would also provide the same 10% buff to WW by virtue of buffing all aoes while also buffing Shalks, wall, and orbs. That frost staff passive would have to be something like +100% frost damage to maybe make it competitive.

While I agree it may not be enough overall, 100% is definitely overkill lol.

I've said it a thousand times but the way Tri-Focus passive works just makes no sense.

Inferno buff should be +% DOT Damage, just like how MagDKs stack a ton of dots and they are the fire archetype.
Lightning should be +% Direct Damage, just like how MagSorc deal mostly direct damage and they are the shock archetype.
Frost should be +% Crit Chance, to give a "shatter" feel, and correlate with their brittle debuff.

Naturally due to Frost's defensive morphs I would strive to balance it where only MagDen considered Frost their BIS staff.

Not really. Winter's revenge is the warden's sole source of frost damage. Add an ice staff to that and it's now WW and blockade. That's only two abilities. And whatever light attacks you weave in while on the backbar If you were to double that frost damage I'm not sure that it'd even out tbh. Especially since inferno procs burning an an extra bonus and while yes frost staff can proc chilled and brittle that status effect does no damage on proc and a group doesn't benefit from having multiple sources of it.

MindOfTheSwarm

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

The premise of this isn't necessarily bad.
This is ZOS' way of trying to encourage a cryomancer/frost mage archetype.

Should have put it into the warden passive instead though, something like "you deal an additional 10% frost damage when wielding a Frost Destruction Staff".
That would make Magden actually run frost staves...

No not really. Because it would still be competing with inferno's 10% buff to LAs, HAs, Cliff Racer, and other single target dots. Lightning staves would also provide the same 10% buff to WW by virtue of buffing all aoes while also buffing Shalks, wall, and orbs. That frost staff passive would have to be something like +100% frost damage to maybe make it competitive.

While I agree it may not be enough overall, 100% is definitely overkill lol.

I've said it a thousand times but the way Tri-Focus passive works just makes no sense.

Inferno buff should be +% DOT Damage, just like how MagDKs stack a ton of dots and they are the fire archetype.
Lightning should be +% Direct Damage, just like how MagSorc deal mostly direct damage and they are the shock archetype.
Frost should be +% Crit Chance, to give a "shatter" feel, and correlate with their brittle debuff.

Naturally due to Frost's defensive morphs I would strive to balance it where only MagDen considered Frost their BIS staff.

Not really. Winter's revenge is the warden's sole source of frost damage. Add an ice staff to that and it's now WW and blockade. That's only two abilities. And whatever light attacks you weave in while on the backbar If you were to double that frost damage I'm not sure that it'd even out tbh. Especially since inferno procs burning an an extra bonus and while yes frost staff can proc chilled and brittle that status effect does no damage on proc and a group doesn't benefit from having multiple sources of it.

Chilled does deal damage on proc. It’s a single instance of damage like sundered or concussed. Chilled deals damage followed by 4 seconds of Minor Maim and 4 seconds of Minor Brittle. You can also proc this on enemies already Chilled which will reset the durations of the debuffs. This also applies to Diseased, Sundered and Concussed and their respective debuffs.

TheGreatBlackBear

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

LeonAkando wrote: »

The premise of this isn't necessarily bad.
This is ZOS' way of trying to encourage a cryomancer/frost mage archetype.

Should have put it into the warden passive instead though, something like "you deal an additional 10% frost damage when wielding a Frost Destruction Staff".
That would make Magden actually run frost staves...

No not really. Because it would still be competing with inferno's 10% buff to LAs, HAs, Cliff Racer, and other single target dots. Lightning staves would also provide the same 10% buff to WW by virtue of buffing all aoes while also buffing Shalks, wall, and orbs. That frost staff passive would have to be something like +100% frost damage to maybe make it competitive.

While I agree it may not be enough overall, 100% is definitely overkill lol.

I've said it a thousand times but the way Tri-Focus passive works just makes no sense.

Inferno buff should be +% DOT Damage, just like how MagDKs stack a ton of dots and they are the fire archetype.
Lightning should be +% Direct Damage, just like how MagSorc deal mostly direct damage and they are the shock archetype.
Frost should be +% Crit Chance, to give a "shatter" feel, and correlate with their brittle debuff.

Naturally due to Frost's defensive morphs I would strive to balance it where only MagDen considered Frost their BIS staff.

Not really. Winter's revenge is the warden's sole source of frost damage. Add an ice staff to that and it's now WW and blockade. That's only two abilities. And whatever light attacks you weave in while on the backbar If you were to double that frost damage I'm not sure that it'd even out tbh. Especially since inferno procs burning an an extra bonus and while yes frost staff can proc chilled and brittle that status effect does no damage on proc and a group doesn't benefit from having multiple sources of it.

Chilled does deal damage on proc. It’s a single instance of damage like sundered or concussed. Chilled deals damage followed by 4 seconds of Minor Maim and 4 seconds of Minor Brittle. You can also proc this on enemies already Chilled which will reset the durations of the debuffs. This also applies to Diseased, Sundered and Concussed and their respective debuffs.

Fair enough. TIL.

MashmalloMan

Calling it now.. this sets a bad precedent that is going to be further explored in the upcoming patches.

• Whip changed from only scaling on mag/spell damage to hybridized. 1 patch later, all skills were hybridized.
• Hurricane and Boundless Storm changed from 15s/24s to 20s/30s. 1 patch later, this same dichotomy was used in the sticky dot standards this patch.

A small summary of history for ESO.

1. So ESO starts out as if you want to use stamina skills, you need to invest into stamina and weapon damage. People want more skills to use from their class kit, there is very little options. 85% of the class is magicka, there is no space for stamina, the only skills people use are for utility where damage/healing doesn't matter like Stuns.
2. To fix that, spruce things up.. ZOS allows 1-2 skills for each class to have hybrid scaling to highlight core pillars of what every class, mag or stam should use. Examples like Streak, Ritual, FoO..
3. Cut to 2022, play as you want, everything is hybridized (except Sorc shields and Templar Backlash morphs)... wait, now stam and mag can't be balanced properly. The morph choices suck. Stam and mag are just using whatever gives them the most obvious advantage.. how can we seperate them again to introduce some much needed class identity?!
4. ESO 2023, Winter's Revenge worked so well! Lets add restrictions to Magicka skills that improve them by 20% damage if you're using a destruction staff and +20% damage to Stamina skills if you're using a Bow, DW or 2H. That will surely fix the problem. Yay! We have class identity again..

Why on earth would you go so far as to remove ALL restrictions to just add them back months later. This has to be the dullest change they could of done and it's entirely because they have no clue how to make class identity interesting now that you can choose any morph you want.

ZOS banked on a skill costing green or blue for years, now that they can't hide behind that facade, we get "knee-jerk" changes like this. This spells really bad news for the future of the game.

katorga

Sandman929 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

I scratched my head when I read this. Very odd and restricting change. I don't believe there is a single class skill in the game that is effected by a specific weapon type.

One of those "outliers" ZoS loves, which is what they do when they don't know what else to do.
How does a class skill favor a specific weapon? I'd love to hear some dev thoughts on this *&#$. Give us some lore on how Wardens get weaker with one ability when a staff isn't in their hands, ZOS...really sell the BS

Wardens have had a "frost damage" fetish for so long, it has made the ZOS do strange things.

xDeusEJRx

I think the reasoning they did that is to encourage more variation in builds because hybridization made clear distinctions in what weapon types/morphs are clearly superior to others and I think this change is just to encourage people to use more varied builds.

I don't think zos know how to create a variety in builds without making 1 morph blatantly overperforming for one particular playstyle to where people just switch over to another playstyle.

I think we're seeing the same thing with the changes to concealed weapon/surprise attack on nightblade as well. They wanna give mag and stam variants variety so people just don't blatantly pick one over the other so they buff one or the other and leave the other underwhelming and then everyone just uses the other morph.


I think hybridization facilitated some weird cycle where ZOS only can think of attaching stipulations to weapon types in order to have any variety in their skills.

Just my take on the situation