Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul (and fix Empower)

merpins · August 2022

So after the recent adjustment to Oakensoul, it's feeling a bit closer to where it should be. Adding minor slayer and minor aegis is great! Aegis puts the survivability back to where it was. But we still lose about 20% of the DPS we had from the live version. I think Major Slayer would be a better addition here, and put it at a 10% nerf as compared to live, but considering group buffs that grant major Slayer and Major Courage, I think this might not be the step forward I thought it was.

However there is one buff that would be a bit better here, and it's one that was removed; Major Berserk. I don't think adding Major Berserk back to the ring will hurt pvp, as it was the Heroism and the Force that was making the ring super strong there. But Major Berserk isn't a group buff, and unless you use specific armor sets, you probably don't have access to it. Minor Berserk IS a common group buff. I think changing this back to Major will bump the ring up to where it should be in PVE.

Also, fix Empower on the ring. We can't test it unless that's fixed. As in it doesn't work. Empower isn't being granted by the ring despite it being on the tooltip.

TLDR on my opinion on Empower (not explained fully in this thread), I think it incentivizes players to use the ring only for heavy attack builds and I don't think that's good when it comes to an item that should help you learn game mechanics, and it makes you need to learn medium attack weaving which is harder than LA weaving. I don't think it should be removed from the ring, but I do think the 40% LA damage should be added back to Empower.

Here's a link to my other forum post about Oakensoul, which goes over math, as well as potential solutions. I'm not going to edit it despite thinking Major Berserk is the best choice here, since I think all the content is relevant and any option would work, but Major Berserk would be the better choice overall due to the reasons listed above.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/613685/oakensoul-is-still-a-20-nerf/p1

EF321 · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

I don't think adding Major Berserk back to the ring will hurt pvp

I stopped reading here.

mmtaniac · August 2022

This thing is too strong ,too much major buffs in one thing.

merpins · August 2022

mmtaniac wrote: »

This thing is too strong ,too much major buffs in one thing.

Adding back Major Berserk instead of Minor would make it a 15% nerf instead of a 20% nerf from live. This is a nerf to your overall damage, not specifically to the ring statistics; since these nerfs are to flat numbers, percentage increases, and something abstract like ulti regen, it took a while to calculate the approximate losses, but it's approximately 20% if not more depending on your build from the ring alone, which is additive to the rest of the nerfs we're receiving this coming patch. I don't think berserk is a big ask for PVE, especially when it isn't overperforming in PVE on live in the first place.

FENGRUSH · August 2022

In people with addiction, dopamine receptors activate and tell the brain that ring needs buff.

Runkorko · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

merpins · August 2022

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

EF321 · August 2022

You know what you can do to get major berserk? Wear a 5-piece set that grants you that major major, like everyone else does for that major buff. Ring allows you to wear two 5-piece sets, it is not whole-build-in-one-item.

Firstmep · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

Hard disaggre. This ring removes the need for buff management entirely, which is a huge part of pvp.
It allows you to focus solely on offense or self healing and literally nothing else.
Gives you 100% uptime on all important buffs, regardless of the situation.
Even in its nerfed state it will be extremely powerful in pvp.
You say ppl wearing have 6 less skills, but in reality its 6 less skills they dknt have to use and still be just as effective as someone with both bars.

Remathilis · August 2022

You can fix Oakensoul easily: delete PvP.

Stx · August 2022

It does need a damage boost for pve, but major berserk isn't the way. That would directly effect pvp.

Runkorko · August 2022

t me.
Again, thanks ZoS by removing this cancer from pvp

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti.[/quote]

Back bar skills = utility skills which broken sould ring give for free without need to mentain.
Second bar ult in pvp also utility ult. Usualy P order for mitigation or AW one for mag regen.
Broken soul give you everything you need in pvp without even need to think about it.
Without need to bar swap. Without need to choose mitigation or ofensive set.

Good try with "If you lose in pvp"
My score is usualy 30-5 or 20-0, so pls dont worry about me.
Again, thanks ZoS by removing this cancer from pvp

Runkorko · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

Sorry for second post.
This shows how less you know about pvp and resto staff attack
Resto staff attack have charge timer + long animation and its easily blockable. Also will be able to roll dodge out of it with inc update.
And yes, im ready. Cant say same for you

xylena_lazarow · August 2022

PvP damage was blanket nerfed 30% or more and people here acting like an extra 5% on Oakensoul would "break" something... what will they blame their losses on in u35 instead of Oakensoul?

Ragnaroek93 · August 2022

No thanks. Go wear sea serpent if you want major berserk...

robpr · August 2022

Remathilis wrote: »

You can fix Oakensoul easily: delete PvP.

Or even easier - delete Oakensoul and end this farce.

But without the jokes, it should provide the current live version buffs when there is no Battle Spirit and the PTS version when there is. Both sides are happy, the case is closed.

xDeusEJRx · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

I think oakensoul needs to be buffed for PVE but the argument that "5 less skills = less effectiveness" is a crappy for PVP. 5 less skills means nothing when the ring grants you most of the skills you would load on your back bar anyways. That plus you utilize far less resources from buffing and re-buffing in PVP which can help with sustain and allow you to be more offensive than you would normally because you no longer need to keep buffs up.

Major force = race against time not needed, therefore 1 skill slot is covered. Major resolve = no armor buff needed. Major sorcery/brutality = no spell power pots or entropy/rally needed. Major protection = no need for back baring temporal guard as major protection is better than the minor off temporal guard

It covers base for so many missing skills so it's not really a "loss" of skills is it? Sustain will be better as you never need to cast these skills anymore and they can now stick to being more offensive or healing more than they normally would had they not needed to maintain buffs.

The only major loss on back bar is a burst heal, but you can just slot it front bar. There is basically no loss of skills when the ring just gives you back those skills and more than you ever would have so the "5 less skills" argument makes no sense for pretty much most classes except maybe Sorcerer who naturally has bad healing and wouldn't benefit as much.

I think the ring should still be the same for PVE but at the same time trying to make that 5 less skills argument in PVP is completely baseless as you end up with more than you would've had with the 5 back bar skills anyways.

Artim_X · August 2022

No, it doesn't need Major Berserk.

Hopefully the empower buff on the ring will be fixed next week.

Stx · August 2022

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

I think oakensoul needs to be buffed for PVE but the argument that "5 less skills = less effectiveness" is a crappy for PVP. 5 less skills means nothing when the ring grants you most of the skills you would load on your back bar anyways. That plus you utilize far less resources from buffing and re-buffing in PVP which can help with sustain and allow you to be more offensive than you would normally because you no longer need to keep buffs up.

Major force = race against time not needed, therefore 1 skill slot is covered. Major resolve = no armor buff needed. Major sorcery/brutality = no spell power pots or entropy/rally needed. Major protection = no need for back baring temporal guard as major protection is better than the minor off temporal guard

It covers base for so many missing skills so it's not really a "loss" of skills is it? Sustain will be better as you never need to cast these skills anymore and they can now stick to being more offensive or healing more than they normally would had they not needed to maintain buffs.

The only major loss on back bar is a burst heal, but you can just slot it front bar. There is basically no loss of skills when the ring just gives you back those skills and more than you ever would have so the "5 less skills" argument makes no sense for pretty much most classes except maybe Sorcerer who naturally has bad healing and wouldn't benefit as much.

I think the ring should still be the same for PVE but at the same time trying to make that 5 less skills argument in PVP is completely baseless as you end up with more than you would've had with the 5 back bar skills anyways.

Its not that simple.

You don't just lose 5 skills. You also lose a backbar weapon glyph, a backbar arena weapon, or a back bar 5 piece + monster set. You also lose your mythic slot that could have been serpent coil, sithis, or whatever.

merpins · August 2022

Stx wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

I think oakensoul needs to be buffed for PVE but the argument that "5 less skills = less effectiveness" is a crappy for PVP. 5 less skills means nothing when the ring grants you most of the skills you would load on your back bar anyways. That plus you utilize far less resources from buffing and re-buffing in PVP which can help with sustain and allow you to be more offensive than you would normally because you no longer need to keep buffs up.

Major force = race against time not needed, therefore 1 skill slot is covered. Major resolve = no armor buff needed. Major sorcery/brutality = no spell power pots or entropy/rally needed. Major protection = no need for back baring temporal guard as major protection is better than the minor off temporal guard

It covers base for so many missing skills so it's not really a "loss" of skills is it? Sustain will be better as you never need to cast these skills anymore and they can now stick to being more offensive or healing more than they normally would had they not needed to maintain buffs.

The only major loss on back bar is a burst heal, but you can just slot it front bar. There is basically no loss of skills when the ring just gives you back those skills and more than you ever would have so the "5 less skills" argument makes no sense for pretty much most classes except maybe Sorcerer who naturally has bad healing and wouldn't benefit as much.

I think the ring should still be the same for PVE but at the same time trying to make that 5 less skills argument in PVP is completely baseless as you end up with more than you would've had with the 5 back bar skills anyways.

Its not that simple.

You don't just lose 5 skills. You also lose a backbar weapon glyph, a backbar arena weapon, or a back bar 5 piece + monster set. You also lose your mythic slot that could have been serpent coil, sithis, or whatever.

Exactly! And guess what? Serpent's Coil gives Major Berserk and Major Courage! You can get minor Force and Minor Berserk easily, so you get all the good damage buff skills from the ring as a 2 bar build with the coil instead. sure you miss out on minor heroism, but Sea Serpent's Coil is so much better in the PTS than the oaken ring in almost every situation that isn't not even funny. It should be better when it's on a 2-bar build, but it's also the better choice for a 1-bar build most of the time and that shouldn't be the case.

xaraan · August 2022

Everyone acting like zos' goal with oakensoul wasn't to nerf it. They don't want it back where it was because it was too strong.

I still think they should just left it OP and made it not work in PvP or Vet content, then it can be a solo carry ring for help completing content and not something that is just a magical equalizer for everyone to be able to complete the harder stuff in the game that should be gatekept. Yes, I know. Everyone drops phrases like gatekeeping and acts like it wins a discussion, but all it does is lose meaning. Some gates are meant to be kept - and I think stuff like vet and hm content is the line, otherwise skill, practice, work, has no meaning. Giving all players a chance to complete any content on normal will let them experience the stories, gain some version of the drops, complete zones/some achievements, and earn skill points in some instances.

WrathOfInnos · August 2022

Stx wrote: »

It does need a damage boost for pve, but major berserk isn't the way. That would directly effect pvp.

It should probably just get Major Slayer. I have mixed feelings about keeping Minor Slayer. On one hand, its nice to have a source of the buff without needing a trial set, and opens up some interesting gear combinations (like Tzogvin + Kinra, or Acuity + BSW). On the other hand, it feels bad running Oaken with any trial set, just wasting a 3pc bonus.

edward_frigidhands · August 2022

EF321 wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

I don't think adding Major Berserk back to the ring will hurt pvp

I stopped reading here.

Yeah I am not sure I agree with this one.

Militan1404 · August 2022

Switch bar you have to push the button 3-4 time and then if you are lucky you actually switch bar. take a potion, then push the button 3-4 times. Use ur ultimate, try that 3-4 times and that is if it even works at all. Then try to buff, but you never know if it actually got ur buffs or not becouse of all the lag. At least the ring made the game feel more like it should be played and the combat felt more flawles. They could remove the back bar from the game for all i care it never works anyway becouse of lag. Would make the game more realistic anyway, who would switch back and forth between wepons in a battle like an idiot?

xDeusEJRx · August 2022

Stx wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

I think oakensoul needs to be buffed for PVE but the argument that "5 less skills = less effectiveness" is a crappy for PVP. 5 less skills means nothing when the ring grants you most of the skills you would load on your back bar anyways. That plus you utilize far less resources from buffing and re-buffing in PVP which can help with sustain and allow you to be more offensive than you would normally because you no longer need to keep buffs up.

Major force = race against time not needed, therefore 1 skill slot is covered. Major resolve = no armor buff needed. Major sorcery/brutality = no spell power pots or entropy/rally needed. Major protection = no need for back baring temporal guard as major protection is better than the minor off temporal guard

It covers base for so many missing skills so it's not really a "loss" of skills is it? Sustain will be better as you never need to cast these skills anymore and they can now stick to being more offensive or healing more than they normally would had they not needed to maintain buffs.

The only major loss on back bar is a burst heal, but you can just slot it front bar. There is basically no loss of skills when the ring just gives you back those skills and more than you ever would have so the "5 less skills" argument makes no sense for pretty much most classes except maybe Sorcerer who naturally has bad healing and wouldn't benefit as much.

I think the ring should still be the same for PVE but at the same time trying to make that 5 less skills argument in PVP is completely baseless as you end up with more than you would've had with the 5 back bar skills anyways.

Its not that simple.

You don't just lose 5 skills. You also lose a backbar weapon glyph, a backbar arena weapon, or a back bar 5 piece + monster set. You also lose your mythic slot that could have been serpent coil, sithis, or whatever.

Okay but current iteration of oakensoul grants you far more than what you would've gotten from literally any other setup. Sea serpents? Lol oakensoul grants you both buffs with no movement speed debuff, which is a huge hindrance and a loss of a backbar isn't necessarily important at all. Especially considering being in a group, you can run pretty much any build you want. I mean there are people who's specialized jobs are to 1 button dragonknight chains or radiant destruction. Do you think these people need a back bar? Not necessarily, but a loss of movement speed is a way bigger hindrance in PvP. Even with movement speed buffs. Loss of an arena weapon? Very few back bar arena weapons can be worth it to where it's better than live oakensoul. Masters staff grants tons of damage, but the raw buffs from live oaken far supersedes that. Same with vateshran back bar. Plus both arena weapons REQUIRE you to actively keep the buffs up. Oakensoul does not, you get it forever, which makes it infinitely better than pretty much any arena weapon.

I don't see how this is much of an argument, getting permanent buffs are always better than having timed buffs that require micro-managing that you can't possibly keep up 24/7 unless you constantly spam that 1 ability. Better resource management from less abilities, better uptime on important damage buffs. Same goes with back bar glyphs, or literally any other things. YOU CANNOT have full uptime on all of those buffs, they WILL fall off because you aren't able to stay offensive or defensive all the time in PVP and therefore you probably aren't utilizing them that greatly to begin with and oakensoul beats it out in that regard by not requiring you to do any of that anymore.

xDeusEJRx · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

I think oakensoul needs to be buffed for PVE but the argument that "5 less skills = less effectiveness" is a crappy for PVP. 5 less skills means nothing when the ring grants you most of the skills you would load on your back bar anyways. That plus you utilize far less resources from buffing and re-buffing in PVP which can help with sustain and allow you to be more offensive than you would normally because you no longer need to keep buffs up.

Major force = race against time not needed, therefore 1 skill slot is covered. Major resolve = no armor buff needed. Major sorcery/brutality = no spell power pots or entropy/rally needed. Major protection = no need for back baring temporal guard as major protection is better than the minor off temporal guard

It covers base for so many missing skills so it's not really a "loss" of skills is it? Sustain will be better as you never need to cast these skills anymore and they can now stick to being more offensive or healing more than they normally would had they not needed to maintain buffs.

The only major loss on back bar is a burst heal, but you can just slot it front bar. There is basically no loss of skills when the ring just gives you back those skills and more than you ever would have so the "5 less skills" argument makes no sense for pretty much most classes except maybe Sorcerer who naturally has bad healing and wouldn't benefit as much.

I think the ring should still be the same for PVE but at the same time trying to make that 5 less skills argument in PVP is completely baseless as you end up with more than you would've had with the 5 back bar skills anyways.

Its not that simple.

You don't just lose 5 skills. You also lose a backbar weapon glyph, a backbar arena weapon, or a back bar 5 piece + monster set. You also lose your mythic slot that could have been serpent coil, sithis, or whatever.

Exactly! And guess what? Serpent's Coil gives Major Berserk and Major Courage! You can get minor Force and Minor Berserk easily, so you get all the good damage buff skills from the ring as a 2 bar build with the coil instead. sure you miss out on minor heroism, but Sea Serpent's Coil is so much better in the PTS than the oaken ring in almost every situation that isn't not even funny. It should be better when it's on a 2-bar build, but it's also the better choice for a 1-bar build most of the time and that shouldn't be the case.

Sea serpent is not remotely comparable to live oakensoul. Major courage and major berserk or not. It's just inferior outright. Losing movement speed is a HUGE deficit. Losing a backbar isn't. That's why you don't see everyone in PVP running ironblood because it grants some of the biggest mitigation in the game, therefore you can be super tanky and deal damage with it.

Not having movement speed means, snare spammers, immobilize spammers, 1 button damage spammers, execute spammers are going to hurt you WAY more than if you could just get out of the way from speed. Ironblood and sea serpent both don't allow you to get away easily, and therefore it's too niche. Not everyone has the capability of sitting and taking damage from someone and being able to survive

Also you dont get FULL uptime on major courage and major berserk, Oakensoul does. So for PVP sea serpent is just inferior to live oakensoul and it's not even much of a comparison

merpins · August 2022

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

I think oakensoul needs to be buffed for PVE but the argument that "5 less skills = less effectiveness" is a crappy for PVP. 5 less skills means nothing when the ring grants you most of the skills you would load on your back bar anyways. That plus you utilize far less resources from buffing and re-buffing in PVP which can help with sustain and allow you to be more offensive than you would normally because you no longer need to keep buffs up.

Major force = race against time not needed, therefore 1 skill slot is covered. Major resolve = no armor buff needed. Major sorcery/brutality = no spell power pots or entropy/rally needed. Major protection = no need for back baring temporal guard as major protection is better than the minor off temporal guard

It covers base for so many missing skills so it's not really a "loss" of skills is it? Sustain will be better as you never need to cast these skills anymore and they can now stick to being more offensive or healing more than they normally would had they not needed to maintain buffs.

The only major loss on back bar is a burst heal, but you can just slot it front bar. There is basically no loss of skills when the ring just gives you back those skills and more than you ever would have so the "5 less skills" argument makes no sense for pretty much most classes except maybe Sorcerer who naturally has bad healing and wouldn't benefit as much.

I think the ring should still be the same for PVE but at the same time trying to make that 5 less skills argument in PVP is completely baseless as you end up with more than you would've had with the 5 back bar skills anyways.

Its not that simple.

You don't just lose 5 skills. You also lose a backbar weapon glyph, a backbar arena weapon, or a back bar 5 piece + monster set. You also lose your mythic slot that could have been serpent coil, sithis, or whatever.

Exactly! And guess what? Serpent's Coil gives Major Berserk and Major Courage! You can get minor Force and Minor Berserk easily, so you get all the good damage buff skills from the ring as a 2 bar build with the coil instead. sure you miss out on minor heroism, but Sea Serpent's Coil is so much better in the PTS than the oaken ring in almost every situation that isn't not even funny. It should be better when it's on a 2-bar build, but it's also the better choice for a 1-bar build most of the time and that shouldn't be the case.

Sea serpent is not remotely comparable to live oakensoul. Major courage and major berserk or not. It's just inferior outright. Losing movement speed is a HUGE deficit. Losing a backbar isn't. That's why you don't see everyone in PVP running ironblood because it grants some of the biggest mitigation in the game, therefore you can be super tanky and deal damage with it.

Not having movement speed means, snare spammers, immobilize spammers, 1 button damage spammers, execute spammers are going to hurt you WAY more than if you could just get out of the way from speed. Ironblood and sea serpent both don't allow you to get away easily, and therefore it's too niche. Not everyone has the capability of sitting and taking damage from someone and being able to survive

Also you dont get FULL uptime on major courage and major berserk, Oakensoul does. So for PVP sea serpent is just inferior to live oakensoul and it's not even much of a comparison

Try testing it on the PTS.

Firstmep · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

I think oakensoul needs to be buffed for PVE but the argument that "5 less skills = less effectiveness" is a crappy for PVP. 5 less skills means nothing when the ring grants you most of the skills you would load on your back bar anyways. That plus you utilize far less resources from buffing and re-buffing in PVP which can help with sustain and allow you to be more offensive than you would normally because you no longer need to keep buffs up.

Major force = race against time not needed, therefore 1 skill slot is covered. Major resolve = no armor buff needed. Major sorcery/brutality = no spell power pots or entropy/rally needed. Major protection = no need for back baring temporal guard as major protection is better than the minor off temporal guard

It covers base for so many missing skills so it's not really a "loss" of skills is it? Sustain will be better as you never need to cast these skills anymore and they can now stick to being more offensive or healing more than they normally would had they not needed to maintain buffs.

The only major loss on back bar is a burst heal, but you can just slot it front bar. There is basically no loss of skills when the ring just gives you back those skills and more than you ever would have so the "5 less skills" argument makes no sense for pretty much most classes except maybe Sorcerer who naturally has bad healing and wouldn't benefit as much.

I think the ring should still be the same for PVE but at the same time trying to make that 5 less skills argument in PVP is completely baseless as you end up with more than you would've had with the 5 back bar skills anyways.

Its not that simple.

You don't just lose 5 skills. You also lose a backbar weapon glyph, a backbar arena weapon, or a back bar 5 piece + monster set. You also lose your mythic slot that could have been serpent coil, sithis, or whatever.

Exactly! And guess what? Serpent's Coil gives Major Berserk and Major Courage! You can get minor Force and Minor Berserk easily, so you get all the good damage buff skills from the ring as a 2 bar build with the coil instead. sure you miss out on minor heroism, but Sea Serpent's Coil is so much better in the PTS than the oaken ring in almost every situation that isn't not even funny. It should be better when it's on a 2-bar build, but it's also the better choice for a 1-bar build most of the time and that shouldn't be the case.

Sea serpent is not remotely comparable to live oakensoul. Major courage and major berserk or not. It's just inferior outright. Losing movement speed is a HUGE deficit. Losing a backbar isn't. That's why you don't see everyone in PVP running ironblood because it grants some of the biggest mitigation in the game, therefore you can be super tanky and deal damage with it.

Not having movement speed means, snare spammers, immobilize spammers, 1 button damage spammers, execute spammers are going to hurt you WAY more than if you could just get out of the way from speed. Ironblood and sea serpent both don't allow you to get away easily, and therefore it's too niche. Not everyone has the capability of sitting and taking damage from someone and being able to survive

Also you dont get FULL uptime on major courage and major berserk, Oakensoul does. So for PVP sea serpent is just inferior to live oakensoul and it's not even much of a comparison

Try testing it on the PTS.

Sea serpent is not better on 1 bar than oaken.
Oaken still gives you all important buffs like sorcery, resolve, savagery etc with 100% uptime.
You may be able to get higher stats with it than oaken now, but that's good, there should a tradeoff for oaken taking care of buffs for you.
A player using sea serpent still has to rotate all those buffs, while a player using oaken does not.
In pvp, that's a big deal.

Lynxyn · August 2022

merpins wrote: »

Runkorko wrote: »

merpins wrote: »

Bring Back Major Berserk on Oakensoul

Nope, remove it enirely. Pvp breaker.

Also thanks ZoS for deleting HA one shot builds.

I mean if you're constantly losing in PVP to a guy that has 5 less skills and 1 less ulti, that's not the ring's fault. Ball groups will use whatever to make them strong and will be a problem even if the ring is nerfed. Until DK is balanced properly, they'll also be super strong with or without the ring. Gankers can totally gank with the ring! ...Or they can do a better ganking build without it.
It was overperforming in pvp due to Major Force and Major Heroism. Major Berserk won't be the thing that tips the ring that, without Minor Slayer lost 25% of the damage it grants, over the edge. And it doesn't get Minor Slayer in PVP because... It's Pvp.
Also, HA is going to be stronger than ever without more adjustments next patch, even in pvp where empower doesnt work. Get ready to get one shot by a resto staff heavy attack.

[snip] what 5 less skills? 99% of the time your entire back bar is dedicated to buffs that brokensoul users have no need to keep up because they already have 4 quadrillion from the ring. No one's using more than like 3 damage skills and their front bar ult to begin with. This thing is more broken on live than malacath ever was. Compare it to a similar item in snowtreaders. Making you immune to snares and immobilizes replaces 1 skill and removes your ability to sprint. Oaken replaces 5~ while adding a bunch of other crap that's borderline impossible for even a 2 bar build to apply let alone keep up permanently. Major berserk needs to gtfo because it can easily be combined with minor which is easy to get and even things like minor heroism it's self would take a whole 5 piece otherwise. Absolutely no one is going to get one shot by a resto heavy empower plus similar effects were the cause of the HA crap. A one bar non oaken deserves to do roughly 50% of a full build and a one bar with oaken should only be doing close to 75-80 of a full build. Nerfs are perfect and nothing else should be changed.

[edited for [profanity bypass]

Stx · August 2022

Why are you comparing sea serpents in pvp to live oaken? That has nothing to do with the discussion here about PTS Oaken.

Everyone knows live Oaken is overperforming in pvp. But it's NOT overperforming in group pve. It may be too good in solo pve, but honestly who cares. Solo content in this game is super easy.

Klingenlied · August 2022

For me it is simple. PvP is important. As is PvE. Thus: neither should break the other. If you add in buffs for the ring, make them PvE only. I think the ring, even after the nerfs, will be in a spot where it will be used frequently in PvE and PvP environments still. It's just that people that manage do solidly play with 2 bars and get a decent uptime on their buffs and dots will perform better doing so - and that's just right. The more difficult the stuff I play, the higher the possible reward.