Elemental Weapon and Crystal Weapon. The Issue.

MindOfTheSwarm

The reason these skills are a problem is that fact you can combo them with other class spammables leading to an incredible amount of burst. This is what ultimately lead to the Crystal Weapon nerf.

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

It would be an easy fix due to spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

Most players only slot one anyway and those that don't are the ones taking advantage of an arguably broken mechanic.

Then no nerfs for these skills would be necessary and Stamsorcs can keep their spammable untouched.

MashmalloMan

Only 1 class spammable or do you mean only 1 spammable?

I wouldn't call this mechanic broken when ZOS is the one who reinforced the idea by giving Crystal Weapon 2 procs. They expect us to run a second spammable and it sucks, especially on a class with the most difficult time with bar space due to 2 bar pets.

At this point, I just want an instant melee spammable like we asked for 3+ years ago. Whip and Veiled Strike are the poster children for what a great spammable looks like.

MindOfTheSwarm

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Only 1 class spammable or do you mean only 1 spammable?

I wouldn't call this mechanic broken when ZOS is the one who reinforced the idea by giving Crystal Weapon 2 procs. They expect us to run a second spammable and it sucks, especially on a class with the most difficult time with bar space due to 2 bar pets.

At this point, I just want an instant melee spammable like we asked for 3+ years ago. Whip and Veiled Strike are the poster children for what a great spammable looks like.

1 spammable.

MashmalloMan

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Only 1 class spammable or do you mean only 1 spammable?

I wouldn't call this mechanic broken when ZOS is the one who reinforced the idea by giving Crystal Weapon 2 procs. They expect us to run a second spammable and it sucks, especially on a class with the most difficult time with bar space due to 2 bar pets.

At this point, I just want an instant melee spammable like we asked for 3+ years ago. Whip and Veiled Strike are the poster children for what a great spammable looks like.

1 spammable.

I was mostly asking to highlight what was possibly a typo:

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one class spammable slotted on a single bar?

MashmalloMan

Also, your idea doesn't really work for numerous setups, not just Cystal and Ele Weapon.

Mag Sorcs:

• Can't use instant frags for burst anymore.

Bow Builds:

• Can't combo Silver Shards with Snipe anymore.

Probably more examples than just that, but many pvp builds combine a cast time spammable with an instant spammable.

I think fixing the root of the problem (which doesn't feel as much of a problem with the nerfs mind you) would be more beneficial than placing a bandaid across the board.

Ratzkifal

I think the actual issue lies not with being able to slot them in tandem with other spammables, but in the design of Elemental Weapon and Crystal Weapon itself, which is simply unhealthy for the game to even exist. It is a cool and unique idea but it breaks the fundamentals of the game and bypasses global cooldowns since LAs are not on the same GCD as skills, even if you had to give up a GCD for it. No matter what you do to it, this design will always create issues. There are delayed burst skills, but every class only has access to so many of them. But using these two skills allows you to line up a boosted LA, a regular spammable/ultimate and your regular delayed burst ability in the same 0.5 seconds. And we haven't even talked about potential proc sets yet. That's also the reason why these spammables are popular in the first place - they grant you access to burst that the game simply wasn't balanced for.

So I suggest rather than creating more arbitrary rules to bandaid fix these skills, the two should simply be reworked to do something else. It was fun while it lasted, now it's time for something else that follows the standard rules for spammables.

MashmalloMan

Ratzkifal wrote: »

So I suggest rather than creating more arbitrary rules to bandaid fix these skills, the two should simply be reworked to do something else. It was fun while it lasted, now it's time for something else that follows the standard rules for spammables.

Here here, I'll happily trash whatever abomination CW has turned into even if I do enjoy pairing it with Whirling Blades. Sorc already has delayed burst via Haunting Curse and somewhat from Bound Armaments, I'm not sure why they thought we needed another.. 4 if you count Mages Wrath/Endless Fury.

francesinhalover

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

The reason these skills are a problem is that fact you can combo them with other class spammables leading to an incredible amount of burst. This is what ultimately lead to the Crystal Weapon nerf.

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one class spammable slotted on a single bar?

It would be an easy fix due to spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

Most players only slot one anyway and those that don't are the ones taking advantage of an arguably broken mechanic.

Then no nerfs for these skills would be necessary and Stamsorcs can keep their spammable untouched.

1 spammable? You can't be serious.

You can't use 1 single and 1 aoe spammable.
You can't use 1 spammable and 1 execute spammable.
1 close and 1 long range spammable.

Crushing weapon lasts 2 secs. Theres no issue with the skill.

What you want is pvp changes that will just hurt several people.

Urzigurumash

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It was fun while it lasted, now it's time for something else that follows the standard rules for spammables.

It's still fun tho. Just give DK Wings the reflect back and make both the Sorc and Psijic skills reflectable.

Pelanora

Ratzkifal wrote: »

But using these two skills allows you to line up a boosted LA, a regular spammable/ultimate and your regular delayed burst ability in the same 0.5 seconds. And we haven't even talked about potential proc sets yet. That's also the reason why these spammables are popular in the first place - they grant you access to burst that the game simply wasn't balanced for.

See, I find out about these things only when they get nerfed. S'no fair.

MindOfTheSwarm

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Also, your idea doesn't really work for numerous setups, not just Cystal and Ele Weapon.

Mag Sorcs:

• Can't use instant frags for burst anymore.

Bow Builds:

• Can't combo Silver Shards with Snipe anymore.

Probably more examples than just that, but many pvp builds combine a cast time spammable with an instant spammable.

I think fixing the root of the problem (which doesn't feel as much of a problem with the nerfs mind you) would be more beneficial than placing a bandaid across the board.

Silver Shards is not a spammable according to the game system. Spammables have a specific symbol next to them that highlight it. Silver Shards would still be able to combo. And yes, you would still be able to use instant frags, no problem. You just wouldn't be able to have frags and something like force pulse on the same bar.

MindOfTheSwarm

Everyone here is not understanding what a DPS spammable is in term of the game. Each class has 1 and each weapon has 1 + Elemental in Psijic line.

When community talk about main class spammables they are usually referring to frags, birds, flurry, jabs, whip etc.
Not other direct damage skills such as whirling blades or scotch etc.

DPS spammable in game terms are the skills that have the torch and sword symbol next to them.

MindOfTheSwarm

francesinhalover wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

The reason these skills are a problem is that fact you can combo them with other class spammables leading to an incredible amount of burst. This is what ultimately lead to the Crystal Weapon nerf.

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one class spammable slotted on a single bar?

It would be an easy fix due to spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

Most players only slot one anyway and those that don't are the ones taking advantage of an arguably broken mechanic.

Then no nerfs for these skills would be necessary and Stamsorcs can keep their spammable untouched.

1 spammable? You can't be serious.

You can't use 1 single and 1 aoe spammable.
You can't use 1 spammable and 1 execute spammable.
1 close and 1 long range spammable.

Crushing weapon lasts 2 secs. Theres no issue with the skill.

What you want is pvp changes that will just hurt several people.

Please read.

spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

only these ones. Prime single target DPS spammables. Not AoE or other sources of Direct Damage.

Zabagad

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

Where? I can't find this symbol. Do you use any add-on which makes it or where can I find it?

MashmalloMan

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Silver Shards is not a spammable according to the game system. Spammables have a specific symbol next to them that highlight it.

Not very sound logic to trust ZOS to make a legit and complete UI. You realise Crystal Weapon and Ele Weapon also don't have the symbol right? So even by this train of thought, you'd be able to slot Crystal Weapon and Snipe, Force Pulse, Wrecking Blow or Flurry.

For Silver Shards, it's 100% a spammable, they've made that very clear in previous patches. It does the same damage, range and cost of similar skills like Force Pulse and Crushing Weapon.

The symbol you're referring to is just a UI element to signify to newer players at first glance what should be used for what role. The Sword and Torch is the same symbol for choosing your role in the group finder as Damage Dealer. That's all it means. Damage Dealers still require other damage tools, not just spammables. It's not meant as an end all, be all, just a guide for newer players.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

And yes, you would still be able to use instant frags, no problem. You just wouldn't be able to have frags and something like force pulse on the same bar.

That is the exact problem I was highlighting. Instant Frags + Force Pulse has been a staple for Mag Sorc builds for the entire games 8 year life span, why should it suddenly change because Crystal Weapon and Crushing Weapon are a problem?

There is better solutions that don't require an unnecessary and unintuitive rule to follow.

MashmalloMan

Zabagad wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

Where? I can't find this symbol. Do you use any add-on which makes it or where can I find it?

No add-on needed, it just only applies to spammables in the weapon lines for whatever reason. You won't find it on aoe spammables, dots, executes, nothing but the Weapon Spammables as far as I can tell.

It can't be any clearer that this feature is only a guide. There is a Healer role symbol for the base skill of Winged Twilight, but Winged Twilight can morph into Tormentor which is 100% a dps tool, not a healer tool. To a new player, they may see that symbol and think the skill isn't worth their investment becasue they want to be a damage dealer.

It's a half baked UI system guiding new players. I'm pretty sure they added it WAYYYYYY back when they added the Skill Advisor, which also happens to be out of date.

Example: The "Arcane Warrior" is suppose to be a stam damage dealer for Sorc, yet it doesn't suggest picking up Crystal Weapon, the primary and only class spammable available to a stam Sorc. It doesn't suggest pets, curse, or even Storm Atro despite those being the greatest Sorc DPS tools available. It is severely flawed and needs to be updated, especially since hybridization has made all skills viable now.

Tannus15

frag proc is better than bound armaments by enough that crystal weapon is now not worth running

silver bolts



crushing weapon



crystal weapon + bound armaments

Sandman929

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Ratzkifal wrote: »

It was fun while it lasted, now it's time for something else that follows the standard rules for spammables.

It's still fun tho. Just give DK Wings the reflect back and make both the Sorc and Psijic skills reflectable.

I miss wings so much...the game used to be fun back before fun needed a coefficient

Zabagad

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

Where? I can't find this symbol. Do you use any add-on which makes it or where can I find it?

No add-on needed, it just only applies to spammables in the weapon lines for whatever reason. You won't find it on aoe spammables, dots, executes, nothing but the Weapon Spammables as far as I can tell.

It can't be any clearer that this feature is only a guide. There is a Healer role symbol for the base skill of Winged Twilight, but Winged Twilight can morph into Tormentor which is 100% a dps tool, not a healer tool. To a new player, they may see that symbol and think the skill isn't worth their investment becasue they want to be a damage dealer.

It's a half baked UI system guiding new players. I'm pretty sure they added it WAYYYYYY back when they added the Skill Advisor, which also happens to be out of date.

Example: The "Arcane Warrior" is suppose to be a stam damage dealer for Sorc, yet it doesn't suggest picking up Crystal Weapon, the primary and only class spammable available to a stam Sorc. It doesn't suggest pets, curse, or even Storm Atro despite those being the greatest Sorc DPS tools available. It is severely flawed and needs to be updated, especially since hybridization has made all skills viable now.

Ah - my question was just more basic - I couldn't find the symbol at all.
After your post I now found it - I have to hover over the symbol to see it.
And I agree on all your agrguments against that theory - it just is/was for beginners a basic info which is a mandatory skill for a DD/heal/tank and OPs argumentation of "spammable" is not valid at all.

Holycannoli

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It can't be any clearer that this feature is only a guide. There is a Healer role symbol for the base skill of Winged Twilight, but Winged Twilight can morph into Tormentor which is 100% a dps tool, not a healer tool. To a new player, they may see that symbol and think the skill isn't worth their investment becasue they want to be a damage dealer.

That reminds me, I've wanted to suggest allowing us to see both available morphs at any time, without even having to invest a point in the skill.

It would both prevent a situation like that and not require us to have to google it.

Bound Armor is another one. If you're a new player you'd have no idea it could morph into Bound Armaments unless you're constantly alt-tabbing to google all these skills. You might see that block mitigation and think you don't want to waste any points in that skill as you're a DPS. If you could see in game the morphs you might change your mind.

MindOfTheSwarm

Holycannoli wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

It can't be any clearer that this feature is only a guide. There is a Healer role symbol for the base skill of Winged Twilight, but Winged Twilight can morph into Tormentor which is 100% a dps tool, not a healer tool. To a new player, they may see that symbol and think the skill isn't worth their investment becasue they want to be a damage dealer.

That reminds me, I've wanted to suggest allowing us to see both available morphs at any time, without even having to invest a point in the skill.

It would both prevent a situation like that and not require us to have to google it.

Bound Armor is another one. If you're a new player you'd have no idea it could morph into Bound Armaments unless you're constantly alt-tabbing to google all these skills. You might see that block mitigation and think you don't want to waste any points in that skill as you're a DPS. If you could see in game the morphs you might change your mind.

I think they expect players to eventually take them all. Only, in late game do players respec points and fine tune what to spend them on.

francesinhalover

MashmalloMan wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Silver Shards is not a spammable according to the game system. Spammables have a specific symbol next to them that highlight it.

Not very sound logic to trust ZOS to make a legit and complete UI. You realise Crystal Weapon and Ele Weapon also don't have the symbol right? So even by this train of thought, you'd be able to slot Crystal Weapon and Snipe, Force Pulse, Wrecking Blow or Flurry.

For Silver Shards, it's 100% a spammable, they've made that very clear in previous patches. It does the same damage, range and cost of similar skills like Force Pulse and Crushing Weapon.

The symbol you're referring to is just a UI element to signify to newer players at first glance what should be used for what role. The Sword and Torch is the same symbol for choosing your role in the group finder as Damage Dealer. That's all it means. Damage Dealers still require other damage tools, not just spammables. It's not meant as an end all, be all, just a guide for newer players.

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

And yes, you would still be able to use instant frags, no problem. You just wouldn't be able to have frags and something like force pulse on the same bar.

That is the exact problem I was highlighting. Instant Frags + Force Pulse has been a staple for Mag Sorc builds for the entire games 8 year life span, why should it suddenly change because Crystal Weapon and Crushing Weapon are a problem?

There is better solutions that don't require an unnecessary and unintuitive rule to follow.

just sucks that silver shards is clunky to use, there's just a weird delay it has that makes weaving unconfortable

katorga

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

The reason these skills are a problem is that fact you can combo them with other class spammables leading to an incredible amount of burst. This is what ultimately lead to the Crystal Weapon nerf.

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

It would be an easy fix due to spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

Most players only slot one anyway and those that don't are the ones taking advantage of an arguably broken mechanic.

Then no nerfs for these skills would be necessary and Stamsorcs can keep their spammable untouched.

That was the entire point and design goal of both of these skills....

It is entirely the point and design goal of other delayed burst skills such as Shalks, Blastbones, Haunting Curse, Mages Wrath and others....pre-cast and hopefully everything hits at once.

MindOfTheSwarm

katorga wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

The reason these skills are a problem is that fact you can combo them with other class spammables leading to an incredible amount of burst. This is what ultimately lead to the Crystal Weapon nerf.

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

It would be an easy fix due to spammables having the sword and torch symbol next to them.

Most players only slot one anyway and those that don't are the ones taking advantage of an arguably broken mechanic.

Then no nerfs for these skills would be necessary and Stamsorcs can keep their spammable untouched.

That was the entire point and design goal of both of these skills....

It is entirely the point and design goal of other delayed burst skills such as Shalks, Blastbones, Haunting Curse, Mages Wrath and others....pre-cast and hopefully everything hits at once.

If that's the case then there is even less reason for the nerf.

HowlKimchi

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

Sorry but this is one the worst suggestions I've read in a while.

MindOfTheSwarm

HaruKamui wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

Sorry but this is one the worst suggestions I've read in a while.

With no why or reason? Fair enough if community doesn’t like it. But in this case, we have to live with delayed burst combined with proc sets, and have to live with never having DoT DPS skills. Making single target burst the only option.

robpr

Tannus15 wrote: »

frag proc is better than bound armaments by enough that crystal weapon is now not worth running

(images)

Total Crystal Weapon damage is the same or higher than Crushing or Bolts, just you had visible worse crit rng, but yeah, Frags are sadly better than Bound Armaments.

Zabagad

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

Sorry but this is one the worst suggestions I've read in a while.

With no why or reason? Fair enough if community doesn’t like it. But in this case, we have to live with delayed burst combined with proc sets, and have to live with never having DoT DPS skills. Making single target burst the only option.

I give you two reasons: (beside that your symbol definition of spammable is not valid and ZOS would have to take care of this definition first)

1) Until U33 I was using crushing shock and Frags on the same bar to use CS until Frag procced. With your way that wouldn't be allowed any longer - without any valid reason. So that would destroy valid builds which were not wrong at all.

2) I use right now crushing shock on my frontbar and crystal waepon on my backbar. That would be no problem for you, but it would be still possible to make the same burst you try to prevent.

These two reasons alone counteract your suggestion, so I don't start about the fundamental discussion why it shouldn't be possible to have two spammables, but 5 dots or 5 AOEs or whatever on a bar....

MindOfTheSwarm

Zabagad wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

Sorry but this is one the worst suggestions I've read in a while.

With no why or reason? Fair enough if community doesn’t like it. But in this case, we have to live with delayed burst combined with proc sets, and have to live with never having DoT DPS skills. Making single target burst the only option.

I give you two reasons: (beside that your symbol definition of spammable is not valid and ZOS would have to take care of this definition first)

1) Until U33 I was using crushing shock and Frags on the same bar to use CS until Frag procced. With your way that wouldn't be allowed any longer - without any valid reason. So that would destroy valid builds which were not wrong at all.

2) I use right now crushing shock on my frontbar and crystal waepon on my backbar. That would be no problem for you, but it would be still possible to make the same burst you try to prevent.

These two reasons alone counteract your suggestion, so I don't start about the fundamental discussion why it shouldn't be possible to have two spammables, but 5 dots or 5 AOEs or whatever on a bar....

Well, this is a fair point I guess. But the bigger question is, do people like the way Elemental Weapon and Crystal Weapon work? Or would people just prefer a straight up Stamina Spammable in the case of Crystal Weapon. I mean, do you find it a little clunky to use? it's almost like reverse weaving.
If the majority of community is happy with it then fine, but it got nerfed. Now this could be down to hybridization, but regardless it got nerfed and thus Stamsorcs suffer. As long as hybridization is the direction ZoS is taking, it is inevitable that delayed burst is gonna get nerfed to balance it out which just so happens to be the Stam spammable. Stamsorcs have suffered unnecessarily. My suggestion may not have been perfect but at least it would mean that skills that players rely on don't get nerfed just because 'extra burst damage' is now possible.

MashmalloMan

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Zabagad wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

Sorry but this is one the worst suggestions I've read in a while.

With no why or reason? Fair enough if community doesn’t like it. But in this case, we have to live with delayed burst combined with proc sets, and have to live with never having DoT DPS skills. Making single target burst the only option.

I give you two reasons: (beside that your symbol definition of spammable is not valid and ZOS would have to take care of this definition first)

1) Until U33 I was using crushing shock and Frags on the same bar to use CS until Frag procced. With your way that wouldn't be allowed any longer - without any valid reason. So that would destroy valid builds which were not wrong at all.

2) I use right now crushing shock on my frontbar and crystal waepon on my backbar. That would be no problem for you, but it would be still possible to make the same burst you try to prevent.

These two reasons alone counteract your suggestion, so I don't start about the fundamental discussion why it shouldn't be possible to have two spammables, but 5 dots or 5 AOEs or whatever on a bar....

My suggestion may not have been perfect but at least it would mean that skills that players rely on don't get nerfed just because 'extra burst damage' is now possible.

Except the suggestion you made just nerfs everything else instead? That isn't any better and thats why no one is for it.

They really just need a redesign if ZOS doesn't like how much delayed burst they do. I've grown use to Crystal Weapon, but it was never what I wanted 6 years ago. In fact, I don't think I've ever seen someone suggest it.

We wanted a Veiled Strike clone. Literally the last melee spammable created for the game was made at launch 8 years ago.

Skulls, Cliff Racer, Silver Shards, Ele Weapon, Crystal Weapon and Poop Fist.

Stam DK's couldn't even get a melee spammable when they went out of there way to introduce Poop Fist. How sad is it that the one class in the game that is almos 100% melee focused, didn't get a melee spammable when the opportunity arised.

The only logical conlusion as to why they're so hestitant to make an instant melee spammable:

Over the years beyond ESO's launch, they realized players wanted stamina specs, it was never a thing at launch. It only became a thing after years of changes. Warden and Necro launches, they give most if not all their damage skills a stamina and magicka morph, but instead of making them unique, they bank on the idea that a skill that costs stamina is unique enough. Ranged spammables have no niche, anyone can use them so they work well for the whole "play as you want" mantra. Easy peasy right? Well Warden and Necro have had a crap ton of reworks to their stamina morphs since then because ZOS finally realized you can't bank on the cost of a skill to make it unique, especially when hybrid changes came around.

The problem with ranged spammables is they're attached to minimum travel times. So when they're used directly in front of a target, despite being instant, they actually take... this is a guess based on prior patch fuzzy knowledge... 300ms to hit your target.

So does anyone use these ranged spammables on melee specs in pvp where dodging attacks is easiest to do. No, barely ever. They're not meta.

Crystal Weapon and Ele Weapon have the kiss/curse of being attached to the weapon you're using. It's a love/hate relationship. To a lot of newer players, they're impossible to use because you're prebuffing your next attack and esentially need to wait a minimum of 1 GCD before you can see any benefit of that.

It's made for some good burst setups on stam sorc, but at this point, the majority of players would rather have an instant melee spammable, it's just never going to happen because they think ranged spammables are somehow diverse. Bow sorcs are becoming pretty fun to play with CW, and I can see why they wouldn't want to lose it, but Bound Armaments and Curse is available, of which both work better on a ranged setup due to that minimum travel time. Giving something like a melee spammable to stam sorc in CW's case, would just mean bow sorcs could rely on Crystal Frag instead.

6 ranged spammables new to the game since launch, no melee. That is just simply wrong.

HowlKimchi

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

Why not just add a simple change to the game and allow only one DPS spammable slotted on a single bar?

Sorry but this is one the worst suggestions I've read in a while.

With no why or reason? Fair enough if community doesn’t like it. But in this case, we have to live with delayed burst combined with proc sets, and have to live with never having DoT DPS skills. Making single target burst the only option.

My reasoning is that limiting what skills can or can't be slotted should never be a thing in ESO.