Undressed exploits that devs will never address

bathynomusESO

Animation Cancelling: the game changing exploit that gives 2-3 times DPS, devs allow it completely and consider it a feature

NordSwordnBoard

If you stole all your clothes, and a guard catches you, they will address your thievery and undress you for it. You get a trophy for this on console.

Amottica

It’s ironic that the first comment is about something Zenimax directly addressed the first year the game was out. They also stated that it is a legitimate action in the game.

Since Zenimax owns this game and decides what is an exploit or not then animation canceling is not an exploit by definition.

Amottica

Oh, and animation canceling doesn’t double or triple ones dps.

bathynomusESO

Amottica wrote: »

Oh, and animation canceling doesn’t double or triple ones dps.

It actually does.

Amottica wrote: »

It’s ironic that the first comment is about something Zenimax directly addressed the first year the game was out. They also stated that it is a legitimate action in the game.

Since Zenimax owns this game and decides what is an exploit or not then animation canceling is not an exploit by definition.

It's legitimate, because they chose to allow it rather than fix it. It's still an exploit, something that one player is unable to do though normal gameplay, while others are able to. Also, check the DPS numbers. It's unintended, should have been fixed and has not. You are advocating for unbalance.

VaranisArano

Animation cancelling is not an exploit. Seriously, we discussed the original source of the Devs saying it was unintended not that long ago, and even from the beginning Jessica Folsom made it clear enough it wasn't an exploit.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610495/is-la-weaving-really-a-bug

I should hope that the Devs get the final say on what is and isn't an exploit...and these Devs have chosen to make light attack animation canceling a major feature of their combat system.


Actual exploit: Fort Glademist still has an exploit that let's players bypass seiging, afaik.

bathynomusESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

Animation cancelling is not an exploit. Seriously, we discussed the original source of the Devs saying it was unintended not that long ago, and even from the beginning Jessica Folsom made it clear enough it wasn't an exploit.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/610495/is-la-weaving-really-a-bug

I should hope that the Devs get the final say on what is and isn't an exploit...and these Devs have chosen to make light attack animation canceling a major feature of their combat system.


Actual exploit: Fort Glademist still has an exploit that let's players bypass seiging, afaik.

Unintended is a lazy way of saying we don't know how to fix it. They can claim all they want that it's not an exploit. DOES IT GIVE OTHER PLATEYRS AN ADVANTAGE? yes! Does it effect who can to VET dungeons? yes DOES it effect economy? YES... it is a game advantage over players that are not able to execute the same DPS... is it an advantage, it is an exploit, it is allowed.

FluffyReachWitch

At this point it's an Ascended Glitch, meaning that although it wasn't intended to exist at first, the devs decided to embrace it as a feature. It's not an exploit.

But it's true that it does create a significant advantage, and the devs are currently trying to address that without removing it entirely and marshing everyone's mellow. (Like other attempts to curb animation cancelling power, this has so far not gone over well, and that is partly because the initial attempt this time was too much.)

I see you've posted this in Battlegrounds and Dueling. If you haven't seen the newest PTS combat balance information, you might be interested to know that the Empower buff (which currently affects light attacks) has a significant nerf proposed, especially in PvP, while light attack scaling itself is going down. That doesn't guarantee the state of the final PTS patch and what'll get pushed to live, but it seems relevant to this topic.

bathynomusESO

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

At this point it's an Ascended Glitch, meaning that although it wasn't intended to exist at first, the devs decided to embrace it as a feature. It's not an exploit.

But it's true that it does create a significant advantage, and the devs are currently trying to address that without removing it entirely and marshing everyone's mellow. (Like other attempts to curb animation cancelling power, this has so far not gone over well, and that is partly because the initial attempt this time was too much.)

I see you've posted this in Battlegrounds and Dueling. If you haven't seen the newest PTS combat balance information, you might be interested to know that the Empower buff (which currently affects light attacks) has a significant nerf proposed, especially in PvP, while light attack scaling itself is going down. That doesn't guarantee the state of the final PTS patch and what'll get pushed to live, but it seems relevant to this topic.

This so called "feature" has destroyed the game. It has created major imbalance, for YEARS. The devs need to deal with this now. I love ESO, I truly do, but they need to deal with balance.

CP5

It really hasn't. If animation canceling was this magic thing that could triple dps, then that one parse where someone just held down the heavy attack button while pressing the key to do flurry would have been, if memory serves, 180k-210k dps. That doesn't happen, like light attack weaving it is just a slight edge that makes other factors like high buff uptimes have more of an impact.

FrancisCrawford

bathynomusESO wrote: »

FluffyReachWitch wrote: »

At this point it's an Ascended Glitch, meaning that although it wasn't intended to exist at first, the devs decided to embrace it as a feature. It's not an exploit.

But it's true that it does create a significant advantage, and the devs are currently trying to address that without removing it entirely and marshing everyone's mellow. (Like other attempts to curb animation cancelling power, this has so far not gone over well, and that is partly because the initial attempt this time was too much.)

I see you've posted this in Battlegrounds and Dueling. If you haven't seen the newest PTS combat balance information, you might be interested to know that the Empower buff (which currently affects light attacks) has a significant nerf proposed, especially in PvP, while light attack scaling itself is going down. That doesn't guarantee the state of the final PTS patch and what'll get pushed to live, but it seems relevant to this topic.

This so called "feature" has destroyed the game. It has created major imbalance, for YEARS. The devs need to deal with this now. I love ESO, I truly do, but they need to deal with balance.

It's been in the game from the beginning. If it destroyed the game then, why are you posting this now?

Amottica

bathynomusESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Oh, and animation canceling doesn’t double or triple ones dps.

It actually does.

Amottica wrote: »

It’s ironic that the first comment is about something Zenimax directly addressed the first year the game was out. They also stated that it is a legitimate action in the game.

Since Zenimax owns this game and decides what is an exploit or not then animation canceling is not an exploit by definition.

It's legitimate, because they chose to allow it rather than fix it. It's still an exploit, something that one player is unable to do though normal gameplay, while others are able to. Also, check the DPS numbers. It's unintended, should have been fixed and has not. You are advocating for unbalance.

I did not advocate anything other than accuracy. I merely stated a fact.

And, yes, it was unintended but is legitimate now, which means it is incorrect to suggest it is an exploit. BTW, every skill is governed by the GCD which is ~1 second. Nothing, not even AC, can reduce that time.

So, it is not an exploit and another person correctly pointed out that it does not increase damage like is claimed in the OP.

Amottica

VaranisArano wrote: »

I should hope that the Devs get the final say on what is and isn't an exploit...and these Devs have chosen to make light attack animation canceling a major feature of their combat system.

And as pretty much all of us have correctly pointed out, Zenimax does get the final say on this so it is not an exploit no matter how someone may try to spin it.

Thank you for your post Varanis.

paulsimonps

What is the intent behind threads like these? The Devs already balance the game around it, there are guides and info about it all over the place. At this point not using it is just like not using certain skills, you are limiting yourself for the sake of holding on to a personal belief that is factually incorrect.

The only reason I can see for making threads like this is cause you are either a) Trying to flame or b) You think that you making this thread, calling everyone that uses animation canceling exploiters, will rally people to your belief to try and persuade the devs to remove it.

Either seems quite futile in the end. The only discussion around it that I have seen that could be of any use is the one regarding the devs phrasing whenever talking about it. "Manipulating" the game as they said in one recent PTS patch note. Why call it that when they have very officially declared it a feature? They want to raise the floor and drop the ceiling in DPS? Then why not teach people about weaving if its such and important part of the game that they balance content around the use of it? Why not add it to the tutorial? Why not add more info about it in the help menu? SURELY that would help raise the floor without hurting the middle tier or even the upper tier. Just get more people on the same page without the need to resort to 3rd part websites. Those types of questions seem far more productive then once again posting another thread about how we are all exploiters and ZOS needs to "fix" weaving.

chessalavakia_ESO

paulsimonps wrote: »

What is the intent behind threads like these? The Devs already balance the game around it, there are guides and info about it all over the place. At this point not using it is just like not using certain skills, you are limiting yourself for the sake of holding on to a personal belief that is factually incorrect.

The only reason I can see for making threads like this is cause you are either a) Trying to flame or b) You think that you making this thread, calling everyone that uses animation canceling exploiters, will rally people to your belief to try and persuade the devs to remove it.

Either seems quite futile in the end. The only discussion around it that I have seen that could be of any use is the one regarding the devs phrasing whenever talking about it. "Manipulating" the game as they said in one recent PTS patch note. Why call it that when they have very officially declared it a feature? They want to raise the floor and drop the ceiling in DPS? Then why not teach people about weaving if its such and important part of the game that they balance content around the use of it? Why not add it to the tutorial? Why not add more info about it in the help menu? SURELY that would help raise the floor without hurting the middle tier or even the upper tier. Just get more people on the same page without the need to resort to 3rd part websites. Those types of questions seem far more productive then once again posting another thread about how we are all exploiters and ZOS needs to "fix" weaving.

They likely aren't documenting it because it would cost them resources to implement documentation and it would potentially lead to an increase in players quitting the game earlier as it shows too much about what's behind the curtain which can break immersion and animation cancel "features" are a massive turn off for some people.

Corporate isn't oblivious enough to miss an increase in refunds/departures after a tutorial change.

As for the tone, it's likely that some the developers take some of the things somewhat personally and display it more than they perhaps should (You also may not have all of the developers holding the same view on various "features"). It feels like the combat teams in many games are making patches aimed at the top few % points of the game and then having the top few % optimize the patch until they find a way that it appears things are not perfectly balanced and then looping back to patching. Unless you really liked the top section of the game it'd get old fast.

Amottica

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

What is the intent behind threads like these? The Devs already balance the game around it, there are guides and info about it all over the place. At this point not using it is just like not using certain skills, you are limiting yourself for the sake of holding on to a personal belief that is factually incorrect.

The only reason I can see for making threads like this is cause you are either a) Trying to flame or b) You think that you making this thread, calling everyone that uses animation canceling exploiters, will rally people to your belief to try and persuade the devs to remove it.

Either seems quite futile in the end. The only discussion around it that I have seen that could be of any use is the one regarding the devs phrasing whenever talking about it. "Manipulating" the game as they said in one recent PTS patch note. Why call it that when they have very officially declared it a feature? They want to raise the floor and drop the ceiling in DPS? Then why not teach people about weaving if its such and important part of the game that they balance content around the use of it? Why not add it to the tutorial? Why not add more info about it in the help menu? SURELY that would help raise the floor without hurting the middle tier or even the upper tier. Just get more people on the same page without the need to resort to 3rd part websites. Those types of questions seem far more productive then once again posting another thread about how we are all exploiters and ZOS needs to "fix" weaving.

They likely aren't documenting it because it would cost them resources to implement documentation and it would potentially lead to an increase in players quitting the game earlier as it shows too much about what's behind the curtain which can break immersion and animation cancel "features" are a massive turn off for some people.

Corporate isn't oblivious enough to miss an increase in refunds/departures after a tutorial change.

As for the tone, it's likely that some the developers take some of the things somewhat personally and display it more than they perhaps should (You also may not have all of the developers holding the same view on various "features"). It feels like the combat teams in many games are making patches aimed at the top few % points of the game and then having the top few % optimize the patch until they find a way that it appears things are not perfectly balanced and then looping back to patching. Unless you really liked the top section of the game it'd get old fast.

Speculating on the reason why Zenimax chose to make this a legitimate action is irrelevant. The only fact that is germane is that Zenimax does not consider it an exploit, and they are the exclusive authority for this.

merpins

bathynomusESO wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Oh, and animation canceling doesn’t double or triple ones dps.

It actually does. .

on live, animation canceling attributes for 10-20% of your DPS. So it doesn't even nearly double the dps, let alone triple it. In the current pts, it's nerfed to the point that it only attributes to 5-10%, but leans closer to the 5%.

UntilValhalla13

Sounds like a learn to play issue to me

VaranisArano

I think the overarching problem for ZOS with officially tutorializing ESO's combat is that the Devs would have to commit to keeping whatever they tutorialized more or less the same or else update the tutorial whenever they made changes.

paulsimonps

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

What is the intent behind threads like these? The Devs already balance the game around it, there are guides and info about it all over the place. At this point not using it is just like not using certain skills, you are limiting yourself for the sake of holding on to a personal belief that is factually incorrect.

The only reason I can see for making threads like this is cause you are either a) Trying to flame or b) You think that you making this thread, calling everyone that uses animation canceling exploiters, will rally people to your belief to try and persuade the devs to remove it.

Either seems quite futile in the end. The only discussion around it that I have seen that could be of any use is the one regarding the devs phrasing whenever talking about it. "Manipulating" the game as they said in one recent PTS patch note. Why call it that when they have very officially declared it a feature? They want to raise the floor and drop the ceiling in DPS? Then why not teach people about weaving if its such and important part of the game that they balance content around the use of it? Why not add it to the tutorial? Why not add more info about it in the help menu? SURELY that would help raise the floor without hurting the middle tier or even the upper tier. Just get more people on the same page without the need to resort to 3rd part websites. Those types of questions seem far more productive then once again posting another thread about how we are all exploiters and ZOS needs to "fix" weaving.

They likely aren't documenting it because it would cost them resources to implement documentation and it would potentially lead to an increase in players quitting the game earlier as it shows too much about what's behind the curtain which can break immersion and animation cancel "features" are a massive turn off for some people.

Corporate isn't oblivious enough to miss an increase in refunds/departures after a tutorial change.

As for the tone, it's likely that some the developers take some of the things somewhat personally and display it more than they perhaps should (You also may not have all of the developers holding the same view on various "features"). It feels like the combat teams in many games are making patches aimed at the top few % points of the game and then having the top few % optimize the patch until they find a way that it appears things are not perfectly balanced and then looping back to patching. Unless you really liked the top section of the game it'd get old fast.

Any part of a game can and will be a turn off to some people, but its also true that the nature of the animation canceling is a big pull for the entire end game community. While small in comparison, what would happen if ZOS removed animation canceling completely? No weaving, no nothing. everything action done was one GCD. The flow of the combat would be forever altered, we would see a massive drop in DPS and all types of content would have to be rescaled. This would also push a lot of people away from ESO, not just end gamers, but mid tiers as well. A huge portion of the people that own an account on ESO has never done a veteran dungeon, let alone a veteran trial, but if those that did were to leave, what would that do to the games community? Why even balance things at that point? Just homogenize it all and it can truly be play as you want, cause your choices will only be an aesthetic feature, and have little to no impact on the game.

Now removing it completely is obviously an extreme example, but the flip side is what we have now, where you need 3rd party websites to even tell you about it, and if you want to do anything in the game that isnt normal mode or overworld you will need it. While its true that ZOS makes more money on new players than existing players, this is most likely true for a majority of game companies, they also need money to hold them over between there bigger projects. Why have 2 small dungeon DLC's inbetween the zone ones? Cause the zones takes longer to make and more money, while the dungeons are faster and cheaper. But not everyone that plays is gonna care about the dungeons, they might do it once for the story but never again, while the vet content runners will farm the crap out of it for the gear and motifs, those are the people that will buy those DLC. So there is still an incentive for them to keep the vet content runners around as well.

So the desire for the devs to raise the floor and lower the ceiling might have more to do with the fact that they want to try and increase the amount of players that do veteran content so that they can have more of a stable player base willing to dish out crowns or ESO plus for the other DLC and the cosmetics people inevitability go for once they realize they want to keep playing the game, Which leads me back to, what can be done to help achieve that, stop having them vilify the animation canceling, and teach people about it.

chessalavakia_ESO

paulsimonps wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

What is the intent behind threads like these? The Devs already balance the game around it, there are guides and info about it all over the place. At this point not using it is just like not using certain skills, you are limiting yourself for the sake of holding on to a personal belief that is factually incorrect.

The only reason I can see for making threads like this is cause you are either a) Trying to flame or b) You think that you making this thread, calling everyone that uses animation canceling exploiters, will rally people to your belief to try and persuade the devs to remove it.

Either seems quite futile in the end. The only discussion around it that I have seen that could be of any use is the one regarding the devs phrasing whenever talking about it. "Manipulating" the game as they said in one recent PTS patch note. Why call it that when they have very officially declared it a feature? They want to raise the floor and drop the ceiling in DPS? Then why not teach people about weaving if its such and important part of the game that they balance content around the use of it? Why not add it to the tutorial? Why not add more info about it in the help menu? SURELY that would help raise the floor without hurting the middle tier or even the upper tier. Just get more people on the same page without the need to resort to 3rd part websites. Those types of questions seem far more productive then once again posting another thread about how we are all exploiters and ZOS needs to "fix" weaving.

They likely aren't documenting it because it would cost them resources to implement documentation and it would potentially lead to an increase in players quitting the game earlier as it shows too much about what's behind the curtain which can break immersion and animation cancel "features" are a massive turn off for some people.

Corporate isn't oblivious enough to miss an increase in refunds/departures after a tutorial change.

As for the tone, it's likely that some the developers take some of the things somewhat personally and display it more than they perhaps should (You also may not have all of the developers holding the same view on various "features"). It feels like the combat teams in many games are making patches aimed at the top few % points of the game and then having the top few % optimize the patch until they find a way that it appears things are not perfectly balanced and then looping back to patching. Unless you really liked the top section of the game it'd get old fast.

Any part of a game can and will be a turn off to some people, but its also true that the nature of the animation canceling is a big pull for the entire end game community. While small in comparison, what would happen if ZOS removed animation canceling completely? No weaving, no nothing. everything action done was one GCD. The flow of the combat would be forever altered, we would see a massive drop in DPS and all types of content would have to be rescaled. This would also push a lot of people away from ESO, not just end gamers, but mid tiers as well. A huge portion of the people that own an account on ESO has never done a veteran dungeon, let alone a veteran trial, but if those that did were to leave, what would that do to the games community? Why even balance things at that point? Just homogenize it all and it can truly be play as you want, cause your choices will only be an aesthetic feature, and have little to no impact on the game.

Now removing it completely is obviously an extreme example, but the flip side is what we have now, where you need 3rd party websites to even tell you about it, and if you want to do anything in the game that isnt normal mode or overworld you will need it. While its true that ZOS makes more money on new players than existing players, this is most likely true for a majority of game companies, they also need money to hold them over between there bigger projects. Why have 2 small dungeon DLC's inbetween the zone ones? Cause the zones takes longer to make and more money, while the dungeons are faster and cheaper. But not everyone that plays is gonna care about the dungeons, they might do it once for the story but never again, while the vet content runners will farm the crap out of it for the gear and motifs, those are the people that will buy those DLC. So there is still an incentive for them to keep the vet content runners around as well.

So the desire for the devs to raise the floor and lower the ceiling might have more to do with the fact that they want to try and increase the amount of players that do veteran content so that they can have more of a stable player base willing to dish out crowns or ESO plus for the other DLC and the cosmetics people inevitability go for once they realize they want to keep playing the game, Which leads me back to, what can be done to help achieve that, stop having them vilify the animation canceling, and teach people about it.

It's true that content with enrage timers that were designed considering weaving usage would have an increased need to have the times adjusted if weaving were removed outright immediately. (Personally, I'd gradually phase it out over a year or two so to ensure a miscalculation isn't occurring regarding it's popularity.)

However, I'd argue that dungeon group content in the long run needs a major pass through anyways.

For example, normal dungeons ram into the issue where most of them are too easy for most groups of four, they get rushed too much for you to experience the story much, the damage done is frequently high enough that the mechanics don't fire or rarely fire which does a poor job teaching players the mechanics, and the group frequently doesn't match their roles which does a lousy job of teaching how to work with people playing a specific role.

I'd suggest most of the homogenization push comes from dealing with the desires of the top regarding balance. The easiest way to have perfect balance is to make virtually everything be the same. People at the top may hate the idea of classes being the same but, that doesn't stop them from pushing to be just like everyone else when they think it'd be useful to them which in turn drives the game towards homogenization. If you don't need balance to be perfect, you have more room for variety. Balance still does matter but, you can get away with quite a bit more especially when the game is primarily PvE and isn't that hard.

bathynomusESO

"combat would be forever altered, we would see a massive drop in DPS"

You mean we would do content as originally intended? The horror!!!

VaranisArano

bathynomusESO wrote: »

"combat would be forever altered, we would see a massive drop in DPS"

You mean we would do content as originally intended? The horror!!!

Are you talking about base game content here, or what?

All content introduced after, say, Summerset, was completely intended to be completed with both scaling light attacks and a trial set that procs from light attack weaving.

And every bit of content after Update 17/Dragonbones is after ZOS included instructions how to weave light attack as a tip in the level up advisor, thus introducing it to new players.

"Originally intended" is a bit funny in a game with quarterly updates...

bathynomusESO

"Are you talking about base game content here, or what?"

Any content. I just want people to have equal ground. Those who cannot do or are unaware of light attack DPS advantages, can still compete.

bathynomusESO

Are the devs so worried about fixing ESO to make it an equal playing field?

Faded

paulsimonps wrote: »

Now removing it completely is obviously an extreme example, but the flip side is what we have now, where you need 3rd party websites to even tell you about it, and if you want to do anything in the game that isnt normal mode or overworld you will need it.

That's why what we have now keeps people who would love the DLC dungeons from picking up this game. Who needs to drill learn jank just to run cool dungeons?

Putting so much emphasis on light and heavy attacks started with Morrowind, the first notable attempt to fix ESO's performance problems by changing gameplay. That's the shadow behind a lot of the spastic changes to combat in the last few years: performance.

Now they're finally addressing that in a more effective way, but they have a mess and a player base that's not only used to that mess but feels disempowered to the point they're not happy to see any change to the mess.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Mandatory LA weaving 4eva.