Heavy attack scaling

boi_anachronism_

I'm confused. Why is heavy attack for sword/shield and 2hand only decreased by 1 percent but staff and duel are down 26 and 28 percent.. did I miss something or...

JustAGoodPlayer

They just do not like duels - or may be love it to much )))

They love duels so you get nerf on it = simple

When you love some thing - you do not want others have or use it

boi_anachronism_

It's feeling a lot more like we nerf popular builds not so much op builds.. it's wierd to me. I didn't see an issue, especially with staff considering it already has a 10% nerf from close range. Idk.

Vylaera

The nerf is to standardize the damage done relative to the time it takes to cast so that all heavy attacks have roughly the same amount of damage potential regardless of weapon... I think?

boi_anachronism_

28% percent is absolutely radical though. No one will run dw after this patch, especially with empower effectively gone. It's all gonna be dk heavy attack builds. Staff is roughly a 36% nerf between that and -10% range.

JustAGoodPlayer

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

28% percent is absolutely radical though. No one will run dw after this patch, especially with empower effectively gone. It's all gonna be dk heavy attack builds. Staff is roughly a 36% nerf between that and -10% range.

DK lose unique skill. Any other HA build is better now - what the hell do you talking about? )))

boi_anachronism_

How do dks lose a unique skill exactly. Empower is still somewhat viable for them. Ambush for example is a nightblade skill and is utterly useless now. No blades use a heavy attack build.

X_K

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I'm confused. Why is heavy attack for sword/shield and 2hand only decreased by 1 percent but staff and duel are down 26 and 28 percent.. did I miss something or...

duel weild heavy setups can still get over 180k for the entire heavy. Lightning and Resto can get over 330k.
SNS is about 120k
inferno is about 150
ice is low 130s
they weren't the same damage to begin with

boi_anachronism_

I don't follow. What heavy attack nets you 330,000 damage? That's not possible.

boi_anachronism_

And these are additional nerfs that were in the notes so whatever they were at this is an additional nerf.

pklemming

I thought we were letting this go live at this point?

I am tired of randomly thought out changes introduced as 'fixes' for a bad PTS cycle.

The latest is so bad it is actually funny, and I am tired. At least the new 'meta' will be amusing.

Additionally, they fixed that troublesome gap between low and high end issue.

JustAGoodPlayer

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

How do dks lose a unique skill exactly. Empower is still somewhat viable for them. Ambush for example is a nightblade skill and is utterly useless now. No blades use a heavy attack build.

Ok - invis PVE only or buff that reduce AOE dps on 20%.

Sorcs streak = Major speed buff for 10 seconds.

And i will not see how DK lose his unique skills the same - deal ?

boi_anachronism_

pklemming wrote: »

I thought we were letting this go live at this point?

I am tired of randomly thought out changes introduced as 'fixes' for a bad PTS cycle.

The latest is so bad it is actually funny, and I am tired. At least the new 'meta' will be amusing.

Additionally, they fixed that troublesome gap between low and high end issue.

Unfortunately it didn't. By reverting to scaling and not specifying "charged" heavy attacks it just means medium weaving will be the new meta which will be terrible for causal or low tier players as it's even harder to master. This was the norm prior to summerset I believe. Its already being tested by skinny and even in a crap rotation for a meta player it nets you almost an additional 10k dps.. so yeeah

Stncold

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

28% percent is absolutely radical though. No one will run dw after this patch, especially with empower effectively gone. It's all gonna be dk heavy attack builds. Staff is roughly a 36% nerf between that and -10% range.

ZOS just wants to kill DW it seems. Between the killer's blade buff and now this massive discrepancy in HA damage between DW and 2h there is zero logical reason for me to run DW over 2h on my NB for pve and pvp even though I greatly prefer it from an aesthetics standpoint.

Oh well. Another point for me quitting this game and going back to XIV the way this awful patch is going.

boi_anachronism_

I dun wanna run 2h 😂

X_K

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

I don't follow. What heavy attack nets you 330,000 damage? That's not possible.

Resto heavy ticks twice then explodes. total damage for peak was was 330k

fiender66

Sadly, it is rather simple to figure out:

1.If you want to leverage the HA+ Empowerment buff, first, stay away from DW and Fire/Ice staves, then you may use:

a. the skills, first of all Barrage for templars, which has been nerfed to inutility, or Ambush, or some mages guild with the passive. Also Wreckling Blows gives it. All are far from good a solution from the point of view of accessibility or general usability.
b. One of the 5-6 sets that proc Empower (uhmm...).
c. Oakensoul, then own High Isle and Murkmire (oohhh!).

2. Disregard HA and go with the nerf binge already done and that yet to come in the next two weeks (and beyond...).

pklemming

boi_anachronism_ wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

I thought we were letting this go live at this point?

I am tired of randomly thought out changes introduced as 'fixes' for a bad PTS cycle.

The latest is so bad it is actually funny, and I am tired. At least the new 'meta' will be amusing.

Additionally, they fixed that troublesome gap between low and high end issue.

Unfortunately it didn't. By reverting to scaling and not specifying "charged" heavy attacks it just means medium weaving will be the new meta which will be terrible for causal or low tier players as it's even harder to master. This was the norm prior to summerset I believe. Its already being tested by skinny and even in a crap rotation for a meta player it nets you almost an additional 10k dps.. so yeeah

It really kind of does. 1 crafted set and one easily farmable set and you can literally hold down the left mouse button using a resto staff, cast 1 skill every 22 seconds and get close to 50k dps. I mean, a monkey could do that, right? As a plus point, really hard to die using a resto staff with heavy attack.

So, well done on raising the floor, and such interesting game play too. it will really make people want to stay

JustAGoodPlayer

fiender66 wrote: »

Sadly, it is rather simple to figure out:

1.If you want to leverage the HA+ Empowerment buff, first, stay away from DW and Fire/Ice staves, then you may use:

a. the skills, first of all Barrage for templars, which has been nerfed to inutility, or Ambush, or some mages guild with the passive. Also Wreckling Blows gives it. All are far from good a solution from the point of view of accessibility or general usability.
b. One of the 5-6 sets that proc Empower (uhmm...).
c. Oakensoul, then own High Isle and Murkmire (oohhh!).

2. Disregard HA and go with the nerf binge already done and that yet to come in the next two weeks (and beyond...).

They just use sets that empower only lightning staves HAs thats why you look such numbers. Do not know how it is now - but 2-3 years ago I did the same HA builds on fire staves - where the Ha of fire stave was buffed, but it was custome build for player who player with 5-10 FPS (bad PC) - and I even playing on DK do not like fire staves - I like lightning.

The same serjant they use to buff each HA tick - you can just exchange with no thinking as example on knight slayer.

So you will get (HA + Knight slayer) - damage that with big HA number will be close to it. But for better result and scaling need to think for better sets.

That the same time if other HAs are ignored is not good way too balance thingth too.

But fire staves give more DPS to solo target skills so it will take some dps from HA to skills and may be you wil not see big numbers on HA because it will be removed to skills in parse as example.

HA players lose a lot of skill DPS by using HA sets. So Ha that looks big is not much different from = (LA+Spammable +2 proc sets DPS).

But Ha sets have bad stats so - skills damage is not high.

pklemming

If this goes live, you will use 1h+S heavy, resto heavy and lightning for trash... for those following the HA 'meta' Fire and Ice are trash.

You only really need to use 1 HA set, so you can still use mythics and another 5 piece set+ slime craw. Or 4 piece trial set for minor slayer and a monster helm.

I was still doing 22k hits with blazing spear...had 60%+ crit and hit crit cap.

It is also so, so, so amazingly boring. It is literally the worst combat in any mmo, but it will let the low end get much better numbers. With the reduction in dps at high end, the combat team should be overjoyed.

Doesn't really matter we hate it and are going elsewhere...

Duhne

Most complain without even looking at the patch notes or just taking in consideration a part of the changes.

Durations of HA have been changed so weapons all have the same charge time. That's why damage was changed to reflect that. And scaling between LA and HA is now based on charge time.

Those are healthy changes for the game

pklemming

Duhne wrote: »

Most complain without even looking at the patch notes or just taking in consideration a part of the changes.

Durations of HA have been changed so weapons all have the same charge time. That's why damage was changed to reflect that. And scaling between LA and HA is now based on charge time.

Those are healthy changes for the game

They really are not... as someone who has just finished running tests this morning. This is very bad for the game. ESO will be known as the baby combat of mmos. Yes, you improve damage, but at the cost of any kind of interest in combat. it is mind-numbingly dull.

JustAGoodPlayer

The one of Ha builds on live:
https://youtu.be/G4jg6B9c39A

In current form with buffed dummy we lose about 15 % damage again and are PVE only.
The same time OP builds have the same DPS as before in compare to it and are not PVE only.

For HA players infiltrator is one of the worst sets - it gives less DPS than even buff set - that is crazy underperforming !

But even so - i play in it even now ))) Hope one day it will be return to normal values.

Now it is worst HA set )))

https://youtu.be/-8UzHNctEUs

But even so players say about some mistic OP ha sets. The worst set in game for HA is OP for them

What will be next >? )) White 1 level sets become to OP ? I play in them some times too - it is cheaper to craft for tests some times )))

Lalothen

pklemming wrote: »

They really are not... as someone who has just finished running tests this morning. This is very bad for the game. ESO will be known as the baby combat of mmos. Yes, you improve damage, but at the cost of any kind of interest in combat. it is mind-numbingly dull.

This is somewhat disingenuous. LA & MA weave builds are well above the DPS peak of HA builds on the PTS, so PvE players can still get as sweaty as they want in order to hit top DPS. Meanwhile the easier-to-master HA builds peak at an appreciable amount of DPS for them to still be viable in vet progs, whilst also reaching the mid-range of 45-60k much more easily without requiring trial sets, giving a sizeable demographic of players a straightforward option for actually feeling like they're making progresss damage-wise, and completing content without being pigeonholed into a sweatier style of gameplay. If they want to increase their peak potential and enjoy a much more dynamic combat experience, they can still learn LA or MA weaving.

If you find HA builds boring, don't run one. Simples.

JustAGoodPlayer

Lalothen wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

They really are not... as someone who has just finished running tests this morning. This is very bad for the game. ESO will be known as the baby combat of mmos. Yes, you improve damage, but at the cost of any kind of interest in combat. it is mind-numbingly dull.

This is somewhat disingenuous. LA & MA weave builds are well above the DPS peak of HA builds on the PTS, so PvE players can still get as sweaty as they want in order to hit top DPS. Meanwhile the easier-to-master HA builds peak at an appreciable amount of DPS for them to still be viable in vet progs, whilst also reaching the mid-range of 45-60k much more easily without requiring trial sets, giving a sizeable demographic of players a straightforward option for actually feeling like they're making progresss damage-wise, and completing content without being pigeonholed into a sweatier style of gameplay. If they want to increase their peak potential and enjoy a much more dynamic combat experience, they can still learn LA or MA weaving.

If you find HA builds boring, don't run one. Simples.

In this patch we get one more nerf. I do not see why it is better for HA players to get one more nerf.

The same time LA builds are top DPS with the same DPS difference as before - but HA builds lose PVP option and good skill.

If we are PVE only make us top DPS than - we can not use it in PVP - ok - make it better in PVE.

No ? The situation on live for Ha builds are much better than this. Even including fact that it is bad because of constand nerfs of last years.

The same time - players on LA do not get boring by spamming spammable 15-20 times? ))

How is it dinamically spam spammable for so many times ? I think not much different from spamming La after each skill ))

remosito

pklemming wrote: »

If this goes live, you will use 1h+S heavy, resto heavy and lightning for trash... for those following the HA 'meta' Fire and Ice are trash.

You only really need to use 1 HA set, so you can still use mythics and another 5 piece set+ slime craw. Or 4 piece trial set for minor slayer and a monster helm.

I was still doing 22k hits with blazing spear...had 60%+ crit and hit crit cap.

It is also so, so, so amazingly boring. It is literally the worst combat in any mmo, but it will let the low end get much better numbers. With the reduction in dps at high end, the combat team should be overjoyed.

Doesn't really matter we hate it and are going elsewhere...

HA outperforms meta LA weave parses now?

Got some combat metrics for that?

JustAGoodPlayer

remosito wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

If this goes live, you will use 1h+S heavy, resto heavy and lightning for trash... for those following the HA 'meta' Fire and Ice are trash.

You only really need to use 1 HA set, so you can still use mythics and another 5 piece set+ slime craw. Or 4 piece trial set for minor slayer and a monster helm.

I was still doing 22k hits with blazing spear...had 60%+ crit and hit crit cap.

It is also so, so, so amazingly boring. It is literally the worst combat in any mmo, but it will let the low end get much better numbers. With the reduction in dps at high end, the combat team should be overjoyed.

Doesn't really matter we hate it and are going elsewhere...

HA outperforms meta LA weave parses now?

Got some combat metrics for that?

META has about 110k now. Ofcorse it will not overperform it. HA is to big lose of damage to overperform other builds and bad set choise. Our sets already are worse than META sets - the only way it can overperform META if META player in META sets start to do on HA more DPS than on LA - and it is not look like this )

So they just "wiwing" here about DPS again ))) they now try do "HA wiwing" - but HA do not "wiwing" - so nope )) This do not work )))
youtube.com/watch?v=F7wg8JRHPkk

For some players wiwing is important ! I do not understand it. I just put LA or HA between skills - and it do not look much different.

So we just need to wait whyle some pro "weawer" tell us all about coolness of "wiwing" ) How perfectly he do it and how skillfull it is )))

pklemming

Lalothen wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

They really are not... as someone who has just finished running tests this morning. This is very bad for the game. ESO will be known as the baby combat of mmos. Yes, you improve damage, but at the cost of any kind of interest in combat. it is mind-numbingly dull.

This is somewhat disingenuous. LA & MA weave builds are well above the DPS peak of HA builds on the PTS, so PvE players can still get as sweaty as they want in order to hit top DPS. Meanwhile the easier-to-master HA builds peak at an appreciable amount of DPS for them to still be viable in vet progs, whilst also reaching the mid-range of 45-60k much more easily without requiring trial sets, giving a sizeable demographic of players a straightforward option for actually feeling like they're making progresss damage-wise, and completing content without being pigeonholed into a sweatier style of gameplay. If they want to increase their peak potential and enjoy a much more dynamic combat experience, they can still learn LA or MA weaving.

If you find HA builds boring, don't run one. Simples.

Not really, they have introduced this as a supposed 'fix' to the multiple issues this patch is currently facing. LA weaving will not be used by upper end players and we will be relying on medium weaving, but it is a major pita harking back to Morrowind days. Even so, there is a significant dps loss and the heal/dot duration/ticks and loss of dps/hps on these means that stuff like vCR+3 portals, vCR execute and vSS HM are going to be beyond annoying. I doubt vRG HM is possible. I have not done vDSR HM and can not comment on that.

This patch fixed nothing we asked for, and for the lower end players, you use Sergeant's not Infiltrator. The HA build that lower players will use, rather than learning to weave is amazingly dull, but the best dps they can probably get, and likely to become the norm for newer players. The combat then experienced by these newer players will not encourage them to progress.

The game is supposed to be fun. None of this is fun. None of it.

pklemming

remosito wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

If this goes live, you will use 1h+S heavy, resto heavy and lightning for trash... for those following the HA 'meta' Fire and Ice are trash.

You only really need to use 1 HA set, so you can still use mythics and another 5 piece set+ slime craw. Or 4 piece trial set for minor slayer and a monster helm.

I was still doing 22k hits with blazing spear...had 60%+ crit and hit crit cap.

It is also so, so, so amazingly boring. It is literally the worst combat in any mmo, but it will let the low end get much better numbers. With the reduction in dps at high end, the combat team should be overjoyed.

Doesn't really matter we hate it and are going elsewhere...

HA outperforms meta LA weave parses now?

Got some combat metrics for that?

You don't meta LA weave now, you MA weave....

pklemming

Additionally, I am sure that PVP will be overjoyed about the HA changes, since this was plaguing them previously. Hitting up to 175k a pop with a resto heavy should translate to PVP interestingly

JustAGoodPlayer

pklemming wrote: »

Additionally, I am sure that PVP will be overjoyed about the HA changes, since this was plaguing them previously. Hitting up to 175k a pop with a resto heavy should translate to PVP interestingly

HA players always have options we can HEAvY spam any other skill.

Like example - HEAVY-CHAIN-SPAMMERS ? ))
How do you like the idea ? The same not avoidable skill. The same set is possible to put on like Savage Verwolf.
We can even permoblock spamming it )))

Chain may be bad choise - tank can get nerf ontheir skill ... - than one snipe mans ? )))

Oh wait - we already have spin to win builds so idea is not new =(

Only LA spammers ? )) Is it already some thing like it ? It was before ... all was already busy ))) Leave HA alone ))