Detailed Roadmap > Q&A

Nefas

Rather than a brief Q&A, I think many players would want a detailed roadmap or a non-vague post on what the combat team's vision is for The Elder Scrolls Online in the long-term, whether it's 6 months, 1 year or 2 years. As it is, most players are unable to trust in a vision because we simply don't know what the vision is even though that vision or ultimate goal is alluded to multiple times in multiple posts. Even if we don't agree with the vision, most rational players would be able to at least respect that there is a solid direction and be able to decide either as a player or a consumer if they want to keep with the game or not. In terms of feedback we would know what to give such as how we tested specific playstyles and specific content for U35's intended goal of combat "accessibility" which unfortunately was not met at all in PTS Weeks 1-3. Such an affirmation of a roadmap or vision would prevent a lot of the dark mood, huge drop in player trust and negative backlash that occurred with Update 35 PTS.

A lot of ESO players rag on me for being a raider but a large part of the vision I felt since 2017 was aimed towards the majority demographic of less hardcore players and even if I don't like that on a personal level to some degree, I respected that vision/direction of the game because ESO is my home and I have stuck to it as many others have who are also not part of that majority demographic because we could respect and accept that direction.

With U35, a lot of people just aren't sure what the direction of the game is. We are told "pain now to suffer less later" but it'd be nice to know when that pain could end for the most part or what we're suffering for exactly.

FluffWit

The last time I saw Gina do a q&a it consisted of Gina asking Gina a bunch of questions.

I really hope we get to ask our own this time.

Wolfkeks

A detailed roadmap with combat changes would definitely be a very good idea.

Might also be worth considering doing these bigger changes not every three month but maybe 6 and then with the roadmap including the most important information.

Tigertron

An end goal is really all I want to know.

HackTheMinotaur

100% agree with this. Devs mentioned a need for these big changes to improve content down the road. Why? How?

I think most people understand the effect of these changes, so a QA is just rubbing salt in the wound at this point. The real question is why the changes needed to happen (all at once for that matter) and what they are leading up to - in other words a roadmap or vision statement.

VaranisArano

Wolfkeks wrote: »

A detailed roadmap with combat changes would definitely be a very good idea.

Might also be worth considering doing these bigger changes not every three month but maybe 6 and then with the roadmap including the most important information.

The sad thing is, they probably think that they are doing the big changes every six months or so.

In both Update 31 and Update 34 combat previews, they basically said they were slowing down the pace of change for that update. Then in the next update they bring out the major changes.

Update 32 Combat Preview:

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In the last Update, we tried to keep things simpler with the number of changes to help combat the change fatigue many have reported, but progress cannot sleep for long as we march ever forward to improving the game.

(Proceeded to hybridize combat stats and rebalance proc sets and criticals)

And we all know that this bit in Update 34's combat preview led straight to this update 35's massive combat changes:

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

. We’d like to say now that since this is the big Chapter of the year, we’re continuing with last year’s approach where we slow down on the large-scale combat changes since there’s already a lot of new systems and features to take in.

Haha, Yeah, you really slowed down there, ZOS!

The result is that even when they slow down the pace of combat changes, they are still making a lot of little changes. And so even if there is six months between "bigger" changes, every patch contributes to the "death of a thousand cuts" that is change fatigue.

NerfSeige

Well said!

tsaescishoeshiner

Given that the community seems to assume the worst whenever most combat changes are announced or even suggested, I'm not sure if publishing a detailed roadmap would sound appealing to a developer.

I agree: I'd also like a more detailed sense of the balance goals and target combat experience going forward. But I can see why we wouldn't get one.

kalunte

making a proper roadmap will drive most of them in therapy if they try to stick to it but yeah. definatly it will help one way or another...

renne

FluffWit wrote: »

The last time I saw Gina do a q&a it consisted of Gina asking Gina a bunch of questions.

I really hope we get to ask our own this time.

Q&A definitely would be extremely cherrypicked questions even if they were alledgedly from the community.

Arwin

I can't relate to change fatigue at all, game combat is still so similar to what it has always been. I'd be up for some daring adventures (rework?) with an actual sledgehammer instead of what most of my peers around here consider to be "big changes".

The way I see things there haven't been big changes in ESO combat since the beta I've played in, just some meta tweaks. To me the game feels more or less the same as it did well over 8 years ago, with extra Quality of Life improvements. A matter of perspective I assume.

Jaimeh

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

. We’d like to say now that since this is the big Chapter of the year, we’re continuing with last year’s approach where we slow down on the large-scale combat changes since there’s already a lot of new systems and features to take in.

Haha, Yeah, you really slowed down there, ZOS!

I'd really like for Gilliam to address that quote--what changed since he made it? Why are they doing the exact opposite of what they stated?

Jazraena

Arwin wrote: »

I can't relate to change fatigue at all, game combat is still so similar to what it has always been. I'd be up for some daring adventures (rework?) with an actual sledgehammer instead of what most of my peers around here consider to be "big changes".

The way I see things there haven't been big changes in ESO combat since the beta I've played in, just some meta tweaks. To me the game feels more or less the same as it did well over 8 years ago, with extra Quality of Life improvements. A matter of perspective I assume.

The feel of combat is not what people are talking about.

Having to redo your characters just when you got done redoing your characters is.

FirmamentOfStars

We asked for some combat balance road map for ages...or for the devs vision. We never got an answer. To closest to having a road map was taking the class reps under NDA, so the devs can share some information with them early on, but even then this did not really happen with a like long term plans and visions. I guess ZOS do not want to share any ideas or vision in the fear, that player will not agree with changes or the devs might *** up with their idea and that will become public showing their incopetence. Like when they tried to introduce cast time on damage shields, reps already knew in before, that this will suck and the idea was discarded without much public negativity. They wont share anything to save face.

Troodon80

As one poster on the forum put it, "ZOS has a vision. It's just blurry and maybe a bit colourblind." I think that sums of the vision fairly well. Some sort of a long-term roadmap to show what ZOS actually wants for the game and how they propose to do those changes would be great.

MorganaBlue

After 5 years of schizophrenic PTS patch notes, updates and communications by devs and CMs, there is absolutely NOTHING they can say that I'll believe anymore. Talk comes cheap.

Having said that, it's all we have from one patch to the next - so yeah...what Nefas said ^^

washbern

MorganaBlue wrote: »

After 5 years of schizophrenic PTS patch notes, updates and communications by devs and CMs, there is absolutely NOTHING they can say that I'll believe anymore. Talk comes cheap.

Having said that, it's all we have from one patch to the next - so yeah...what Nefas said ^^

Sadly I agree with this. Whatever they say, roadmap or q&a or whatever, they can always just 180 at any point in time. What u35 made me realize is that there is no plan. They are just making changes almost on a whim to give people a sense that they are working on stuff.

Elsonso

They have provided road maps in the past.

What we learned is that their road maps change too frequently, so update to the map changed the map.

We also learned that they can't really assign dates to things, or even say which quarter they will do something, and then keep those dates.

In the end, while I appreciated the map, it did end up triggering criticism from the community about their map and their ability to follow it.

So, yeah, would like to see a combat map, but I know that the community focus will be on the accuracy of the map, not the changes to the game.

VaranisArano

Jaimeh wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

. We’d like to say now that since this is the big Chapter of the year, we’re continuing with last year’s approach where we slow down on the large-scale combat changes since there’s already a lot of new systems and features to take in.

Haha, Yeah, you really slowed down there, ZOS!

I'd really like for Gilliam to address that quote--what changed since he made it? Why are they doing the exact opposite of what they stated?

My thinking is that Gilliam only meant to say that they were slowing down specific combat changes for the Chapter's patch because the Chapter adds its own new systems. As in "let's focus on the Chapter rather than the Chapter AND nerfing DPS across the board."

To me, it highlights that ZOS doesn't view "change fatigue" as an ongoing process that involves ALL of the big and small changes they make. Or at least, it's not a big enough problem to make them actually slow the pace of changes.

Update 32 was a big combat change.
Update 34 was a big Chapter change (which impacts combat too).
Update 35 is a big combat change.

The result is that in the last year, three out of the four updates have resulted in pretty big changes and gameplay shifts for players, and it's not like Update 33 didn't come out with its own tweaks and relatively smaller changes that likewise contribute to change fatigue for the players impacted. The flip side is that the Devs cannot afford for ESO to become stagnant, so that players become bored or dissatisfied with a stale meta and leave in droves for that reason either.

So they are caught between the Scylla of stagnation and the Charybdis of change fatigue, and can only forge forward as best they are able.

Lughlongarm

Elsonso wrote: »

They have provided road maps in the past.

What we learned is that their road maps change too frequently, so update to the map changed the map.

We also learned that they can't really assign dates to things, or even say which quarter they will do something, and then keep those dates.

In the end, while I appreciated the map, it did end up triggering criticism from the community about their map and their ability to follow it.

So, yeah, would like to see a combat map, but I know that the community focus will be on the accuracy of the map, not the changes to the game.

Ya, exactly. Just reviewed this article from 2019. They ended up going with a completely different direction.
https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025)

Kallykat

VaranisArano wrote: »

So they are caught between the Scylla of stagnation and the Charybdis of change fatigue, and can only forge forward as best they are able.

Awesome for solid use of metaphor and allusion.

VaranisArano

Kallykat wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

So they are caught between the Scylla of stagnation and the Charybdis of change fatigue, and can only forge forward as best they are able.

Awesome for solid use of metaphor and allusion.

I've been interested in Greek mythology since I was a kid with a library card. Glad you enjoyed!

RaddlemanNumber7

I think the Combat Team's long term vision is to stay in employment.

Alendrin

Agree with Nefas!

FirmamentOfStars

Can they please hire Eric Wrobel again?

sbr32

VaranisArano wrote: »

The flip side is that the Devs cannot afford for ESO to become stagnant, so that players become bored or dissatisfied with a stale meta and leave in droves for that reason either.

So they are caught between the Scylla of stagnation and the Charybdis of change fatigue, and can only forge forward as best they are able.

Assuming this is true, and I am not making a judgement on that here, I think I would prefer my customers to take periodic breaks between content releases than have loads of angry customers all leaving at once, vowing to never come back and going out of their way to tell friends and family why on the way out the door.

MagiiC_One

there is no Roadmap.
ZOS doesnt care about damage we do or the floor or ceiling dps. the try to fix server performance in pvp especially on console imo. thats why they try to lower apm /dps.

less skills > less Dps > less counterheal > less stress on server

Tannus15

I'm willing to cop some short term pain for long term gain if that's what it takes to get a better game. but without any idea what the long term gain is, it's just short term pain that might be long term pain and this is how it is now.

we need clear, unambiguous goals for the game so that we can understand why changes are being made and we can help see if those goals are being met.

take the "accessibility" comment in this update.

what exactly is that meant to mean? is it about making content accessible, or making combat rotations easier to master or making combat less frenetic over all? We don't know. we just know that accessibility is something they are aiming for.

lowering the ceiling and raising the floor. we've read this over and over and over. but we don't know the benchmarks. we don't know where they want the floor to be and where they want the ceiling to be. we don't know the context, we don't know they content they are talking about, we don't know the demographic they are talking about.

who is the floor? is it everyone in the whole game? is it anyone who dose random normals? is it only people who do vet content?

who is the ceiling? is it only trifecta groups? is it HM prog groups? is it anyone doing vet trials?

kind_hero

100% agree!

Not only regarding combat, we also need some simplified roadmap regarding other areas of the game!

Like, are there plans for a new Cyrodiil or IC?

What are their plans with housing and furnishings?

Any plans to overhaul crafting? Veteran crafters have little to do besides routine.

Any plans to ditch the one year chapter?

How about new skill lines/morphs, ways to customise the appearance of our class skills?

More important, are there any plans to be more active with the community?

doesurmindglow

I agree, I think the "change fatigue" and poor communication about the long-term direction of the game are the two single largest factors that have driven the outrage and exodus arising from the current PTS.

This is why simply reverting the changes is not enough, not really -- -players are frustrated with a much longer-term pattern of dramatic balance changes, sets and releases that accomplish the opposite of their stated intent, seemingly irrational buffs to strong classes and skills and nerfs to persistently weak ones, balance changes that routinely reverse prior balance changes in dramatic and sweeping fashion, and perhaps most importantly, the prioritizing of all of this workload over badly needed bug fixes, performance improvements, and quality-of-life updates.

We need more transparency and clear, meaningful commitments to a long-term plan and direction.

Or at the very least, we should eventually get treasure maps that can stack.

Firstmep

My 2 cents is that they probably see, that not enough players interact with new content(dungeons and trials), and that can make the development of those questionable in the long term.
Another thing is, they probably read thru feedback of ppl complaining about things like mandatory dps for more difficult trials, and though that if they can bring the top end down enough, than those requirements will also lower, and it will be less daunting for less skilled players.
And of they wanted to make pve rotations simpler, or at least easier to keep up with.

As far as I can tell, their vision is obvious, it's just their execution is problematic.
For one, they still haven't finished the hybridization changes, and that already confuses newer players, who already didnt know how to scale their dmg, but now there are 2 parallel paths, but actually wait no cuz they're mostly the same but with some specific exceptions.