This is why average players can't reach high end dps.

BlueRaven

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

You misunderstand.

You posit the default assumption to be a static, organized group.

I posit that many trial groups aren't static or permanent in setup in the first place. These groups can consist of excellent players, but the very nature of the matter prohibits the individual parts to be as precisely optimized in gear choice as a permanent group; and that is were a massive bit of any performance disparity comes from.

Now, whether that is an inherently bad thing or not, if ZOS wants to narrow that disparity perhaps this hard focus on static, permanent and thus very well prepared groups is something to reconsider for them instead of hitting at individuals.

I did not posit any assumption. I made it clear I was speaking about an organized group with good leadership. The less organized a group is the less efficient that group will be and that is expected which is something I also made clear. It’s also why players like myself do not run in craglorn pugs. I either run with a guild group or a training groups knowing those players are learning and the group will not be perfect.

And this is to be expected and not something for the devs to correct and really not an issue that needs to be focused on.

The original statement:

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

Your opposition to that statement:

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

A static group being the average group is already a bold statement. Implying all group buffs to be available to every group is straight up factually incorrect.

Mind you, I don't think that the heavy performance difference between high end groups and some random craglorn trial group is necessarily a problem; I'm just pointing out that this is where a massive chunk of the performance difference bothering ZOS originates. So to me, at least, this is less a question of numerical adjustments and more one of fundamental design choices on how important these static trial groups should be in the game.

Simply put. Just because a group does not employ a buff does not mean they do not have access to it. If the group chooses, actively or passively, to not use a buff that can benefit them, that is their problem and not a game design issue.

It kind of is a game problem.

Expecting each group to have all the buffs all the time is unrealistic.
People that provide particular buffs may be on vacation, or just missing, while the replacement may not have that set up.
Friends and family guilds may be more inclined to take anyone who shows up, and any buffs they can present is just a bonus.
Groups may not even know about buffs or at least know all of them. I know with the oak ring I had to look up at least one I never heard of.

Casual (low dps) groups aren’t static. Who shows up changes week per week. And to assume everyone knows what buffs they are supposed to bring seems unrealistic. If encounters are set up assuming they have all of the buffs that can be an issue.

Ardriel

Diligence and perseverance are certainly not the only reasons why some players achieve so much more dps. In my opinion, age plays a significant role. The younger you are, the faster you adapt to new situations and learn mechanics. A young person in their mid-20s-30s learns much faster and has a much quicker reaction time. Of course, this has an enormous effect on the gameplay.
There are a lot of players I know (including myself) who invest a lot of time and effort in the game. Practising, parsing, dealing intensively with builds and mechanics and still not getting into the upper dps range (100k+). Also hm progress is very difficult for them, or hardly possible. It’s very unfair to say that they simply don't want to improve because they are lazy or have no desire or interest. Younger players always have the natural advantage, but are not necessarily more committed.
You should take into account that far more players aged 45+ play ESO than you think

Jazraena

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

You misunderstand.

You posit the default assumption to be a static, organized group.

I posit that many trial groups aren't static or permanent in setup in the first place. These groups can consist of excellent players, but the very nature of the matter prohibits the individual parts to be as precisely optimized in gear choice as a permanent group; and that is were a massive bit of any performance disparity comes from.

Now, whether that is an inherently bad thing or not, if ZOS wants to narrow that disparity perhaps this hard focus on static, permanent and thus very well prepared groups is something to reconsider for them instead of hitting at individuals.

I did not posit any assumption. I made it clear I was speaking about an organized group with good leadership. The less organized a group is the less efficient that group will be and that is expected which is something I also made clear. It’s also why players like myself do not run in craglorn pugs. I either run with a guild group or a training groups knowing those players are learning and the group will not be perfect.

And this is to be expected and not something for the devs to correct and really not an issue that needs to be focused on.

The original statement:

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

Your opposition to that statement:

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

A static group being the average group is already a bold statement. Implying all group buffs to be available to every group is straight up factually incorrect.

Mind you, I don't think that the heavy performance difference between high end groups and some random craglorn trial group is necessarily a problem; I'm just pointing out that this is where a massive chunk of the performance difference bothering ZOS originates. So to me, at least, this is less a question of numerical adjustments and more one of fundamental design choices on how important these static trial groups should be in the game.

Simply put. Just because a group does not employ a buff does not mean they do not have access to it. If the group chooses, actively or passively, to not use a buff that can benefit them, that is their problem and not a game design issue.

You're still not following. I'm not saying it's a problem, I'm saying it's the reality, for the reasons BlueRaven up there listed. And this is where a lot of this power gap that ZOS wants to address originates from. By extension, I'm also saying that your statement of every group having access to them is as incorrect as expecting to have more than a tank with Taunt and Major Breach in a Dungeon Pug, and even that is a gamble.

My own opinion of whether this is a good thing or not hasn't entered the discussion so far.

Amottica

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

You misunderstand.

You posit the default assumption to be a static, organized group.

I posit that many trial groups aren't static or permanent in setup in the first place. These groups can consist of excellent players, but the very nature of the matter prohibits the individual parts to be as precisely optimized in gear choice as a permanent group; and that is were a massive bit of any performance disparity comes from.

Now, whether that is an inherently bad thing or not, if ZOS wants to narrow that disparity perhaps this hard focus on static, permanent and thus very well prepared groups is something to reconsider for them instead of hitting at individuals.

I did not posit any assumption. I made it clear I was speaking about an organized group with good leadership. The less organized a group is the less efficient that group will be and that is expected which is something I also made clear. It’s also why players like myself do not run in craglorn pugs. I either run with a guild group or a training groups knowing those players are learning and the group will not be perfect.

And this is to be expected and not something for the devs to correct and really not an issue that needs to be focused on.

The original statement:

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

Your opposition to that statement:

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

A static group being the average group is already a bold statement. Implying all group buffs to be available to every group is straight up factually incorrect.

Mind you, I don't think that the heavy performance difference between high end groups and some random craglorn trial group is necessarily a problem; I'm just pointing out that this is where a massive chunk of the performance difference bothering ZOS originates. So to me, at least, this is less a question of numerical adjustments and more one of fundamental design choices on how important these static trial groups should be in the game.

Simply put. Just because a group does not employ a buff does not mean they do not have access to it. If the group chooses, actively or passively, to not use a buff that can benefit them, that is their problem and not a game design issue.

You're still not following. I'm not saying it's a problem, I'm saying it's the reality, for the reasons BlueRaven up there listed. And this is where a lot of this power gap that ZOS wants to address originates from. By extension, I'm also saying that your statement of every group having access to them is as incorrect as expecting to have more than a tank with Taunt and Major Breach in a Dungeon Pug, and even that is a gamble.

My own opinion of whether this is a good thing or not hasn't entered the discussion so far.

Oh no. I am following. I am merely pointing out it’s a choice they make. So my comment in my origins comment if factually correct 100%. I noted it’s the group leaders responsibility to ensure the group has the buffs needed. If the leader is lacking or a player is lacking in meeting the needs they need to be replaced.

It is that simple. I respect you have an oppinion that differs but it in no way alters the accuracy of my comment.

Have a good day.

pklemming

Ardriel wrote: »

Diligence and perseverance are certainly not the only reasons why some players achieve so much more dps. In my opinion, age plays a significant role. The younger you are, the faster you adapt to new situations and learn mechanics. A young person in their mid-20s-30s learns much faster and has a much quicker reaction time. Of course, this has an enormous effect on the gameplay.
There are a lot of players I know (including myself) who invest a lot of time and effort in the game. Practising, parsing, dealing intensively with builds and mechanics and still not getting into the upper dps range (100k+). Also hm progress is very difficult for them, or hardly possible. It’s very unfair to say that they simply don't want to improve because they are lazy or have no desire or interest. Younger players always have the natural advantage, but are not necessarily more committed.
You should take into account that far more players aged 45+ play ESO than you think

I am over 50*cough* and disabled. Yeah, it took longer, but I have done most HMs in the game now as dd or tank, I also parse over 100k. Age is not that much of an issue, though disability can be.

pklemming

pklemming wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Diligence and perseverance are certainly not the only reasons why some players achieve so much more dps. In my opinion, age plays a significant role. The younger you are, the faster you adapt to new situations and learn mechanics. A young person in their mid-20s-30s learns much faster and has a much quicker reaction time. Of course, this has an enormous effect on the gameplay.
There are a lot of players I know (including myself) who invest a lot of time and effort in the game. Practising, parsing, dealing intensively with builds and mechanics and still not getting into the upper dps range (100k+). Also hm progress is very difficult for them, or hardly possible. It’s very unfair to say that they simply don't want to improve because they are lazy or have no desire or interest. Younger players always have the natural advantage, but are not necessarily more committed.
You should take into account that far more players aged 45+ play ESO than you think

I am over 50*cough* and disabled. Yeah, it took longer, but I have done most HMs in the game now as dd or tank, I also parse over 100k. Age is not that much of an issue, though disability can be.

DPS gap has something to do with buffs, but even in unorganised groups, determination, knowing your class and practice pay off. You are not suffering from lack of buffs. You are suffering from lack of practice.

SMURF. Old age and such. Pressed the wrong button

Rimskjegg

Ardriel wrote: »

Diligence and perseverance are certainly not the only reasons why some players achieve so much more dps. In my opinion, age plays a significant role. The younger you are, the faster you adapt to new situations and learn mechanics. A young person in their mid-20s-30s learns much faster and has a much quicker reaction time. Of course, this has an enormous effect on the gameplay.
There are a lot of players I know (including myself) who invest a lot of time and effort in the game. Practising, parsing, dealing intensively with builds and mechanics and still not getting into the upper dps range (100k+). Also hm progress is very difficult for them, or hardly possible. It’s very unfair to say that they simply don't want to improve because they are lazy or have no desire or interest. Younger players always have the natural advantage, but are not necessarily more committed.
You should take into account that far more players aged 45+ play ESO than you think

This. I'm 43 which isn't *that* old but having been a comparatively fast learner when I grew up, it's really bugging me how long new things take to learn already. Muscle memory just builds slower. Plus I have a job and a family, there's only so much time I have to play per week. I can't get good weaving speeds no matter how much I practice but if rotations didn't keep changing, I could take my time and learn eventually. Constant changes are a massive factor in the DPS gap and frankly, I suspect some on the combat team are just too young to realize.

pklemming

Rimskjegg wrote: »

Ardriel wrote: »

Diligence and perseverance are certainly not the only reasons why some players achieve so much more dps. In my opinion, age plays a significant role. The younger you are, the faster you adapt to new situations and learn mechanics. A young person in their mid-20s-30s learns much faster and has a much quicker reaction time. Of course, this has an enormous effect on the gameplay.
There are a lot of players I know (including myself) who invest a lot of time and effort in the game. Practising, parsing, dealing intensively with builds and mechanics and still not getting into the upper dps range (100k+). Also hm progress is very difficult for them, or hardly possible. It’s very unfair to say that they simply don't want to improve because they are lazy or have no desire or interest. Younger players always have the natural advantage, but are not necessarily more committed.
You should take into account that far more players aged 45+ play ESO than you think

This. I'm 43 which isn't *that* old but having been a comparatively fast learner when I grew up, it's really bugging me how long new things take to learn already. Muscle memory just builds slower. Plus I have a job and a family, there's only so much time I have to play per week. I can't get good weaving speeds no matter how much I practice but if rotations didn't keep changing, I could take my time and learn eventually. Constant changes are a massive factor in the DPS gap and frankly, I suspect some on the combat team are just too young to realize.

Once you get to the point you get one rotation down fine, it is less of a hassle getting other down. Having that 1 second ticking in your head for LA + skill translates well to other classes. The learning does take time, though. it took me a lot of time, more than it would have done in my 20s.

Less changes would really help everyone, though.

Jazraena

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

You misunderstand.

You posit the default assumption to be a static, organized group.

I posit that many trial groups aren't static or permanent in setup in the first place. These groups can consist of excellent players, but the very nature of the matter prohibits the individual parts to be as precisely optimized in gear choice as a permanent group; and that is were a massive bit of any performance disparity comes from.

Now, whether that is an inherently bad thing or not, if ZOS wants to narrow that disparity perhaps this hard focus on static, permanent and thus very well prepared groups is something to reconsider for them instead of hitting at individuals.

I did not posit any assumption. I made it clear I was speaking about an organized group with good leadership. The less organized a group is the less efficient that group will be and that is expected which is something I also made clear. It’s also why players like myself do not run in craglorn pugs. I either run with a guild group or a training groups knowing those players are learning and the group will not be perfect.

And this is to be expected and not something for the devs to correct and really not an issue that needs to be focused on.

The original statement:

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

Your opposition to that statement:

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

A static group being the average group is already a bold statement. Implying all group buffs to be available to every group is straight up factually incorrect.

Mind you, I don't think that the heavy performance difference between high end groups and some random craglorn trial group is necessarily a problem; I'm just pointing out that this is where a massive chunk of the performance difference bothering ZOS originates. So to me, at least, this is less a question of numerical adjustments and more one of fundamental design choices on how important these static trial groups should be in the game.

Simply put. Just because a group does not employ a buff does not mean they do not have access to it. If the group chooses, actively or passively, to not use a buff that can benefit them, that is their problem and not a game design issue.

You're still not following. I'm not saying it's a problem, I'm saying it's the reality, for the reasons BlueRaven up there listed. And this is where a lot of this power gap that ZOS wants to address originates from. By extension, I'm also saying that your statement of every group having access to them is as incorrect as expecting to have more than a tank with Taunt and Major Breach in a Dungeon Pug, and even that is a gamble.

My own opinion of whether this is a good thing or not hasn't entered the discussion so far.

Oh no. I am following. I am merely pointing out it’s a choice they make. So my comment in my origins comment if factually correct 100%. I noted it’s the group leaders responsibility to ensure the group has the buffs needed. If the leader is lacking or a player is lacking in meeting the needs they need to be replaced.

It is that simple. I respect you have an oppinion that differs but it in no way alters the accuracy of my comment.

Have a good day.

No, you're not - the very fact that you maintain that this is a choice someone makes is evidence of that. This isn't my opinion, nor even something one could have an opinion about. Plenty groups simply operate under life circumstances that prevent these choices in the first place.

Whether ZOS should cater to those groups over others and how is another matter, but pretending every single trial group formed in the game has these choices is simply in ignorance of the limitations placed on random groups or even guilds made up of people with a more restrictive play time than 'I am available every night from 20:00 onwards'.

sbr32

Ardriel wrote: »

Diligence and perseverance are certainly not the only reasons why some players achieve so much more dps. In my opinion, age plays a significant role. The younger you are, the faster you adapt to new situations and learn mechanics. A young person in their mid-20s-30s learns much faster and has a much quicker reaction time. Of course, this has an enormous effect on the gameplay.
There are a lot of players I know (including myself) who invest a lot of time and effort in the game. Practising, parsing, dealing intensively with builds and mechanics and still not getting into the upper dps range (100k+). Also hm progress is very difficult for them, or hardly possible. It’s very unfair to say that they simply don't want to improve because they are lazy or have no desire or interest. Younger players always have the natural advantage, but are not necessarily more committed.
You should take into account that far more players aged 45+ play ESO than you think

How much of a drop off do you really think there is at 45+?

I'm (almost) 52 and up until I lost interest with the hybridization patches I think I was at the bottom end of top tier dps. If the top parses were 100k I was pushing into the mid 90s, and unless I was in a really cracked group I was usually in the top 4 of DPS in run logs. I feel that any of that discrepancy was because I didn't care enough to push from pretty good into great, not because of some problem with my 50 year old fingers or brain. And for the record I have been an electrician for the last 25 years, so my hands and body take a beating on a regular basis at work.

prof_doom

BlueRaven wrote: »

Expecting each group to have all the buffs all the time is unrealistic.
People that provide particular buffs may be on vacation, or just missing, while the replacement may not have that set up.
Friends and family guilds may be more inclined to take anyone who shows up, and any buffs they can present is just a bonus.
Groups may not even know about buffs or at least know all of them. I know with the oak ring I had to look up at least one I never heard of.

Casual (low dps) groups aren’t static. Who shows up changes week per week. And to assume everyone knows what buffs they are supposed to bring seems unrealistic. If encounters are set up assuming they have all of the buffs that can be an issue.

It's the difference between a group that's gunning for a trifecta and one that isn't.
I'm 100% okay knowing that you can't get a Dreadsail Reef trifecta without building a group that has all the buffs and debuffs, and has 90% uptimes on everything.

As people said from the very first post about U35 combat changes before the patch, what they were proposing was going to hurt the casual / semi-serious groups far more than the trifecta runners.

Galarthor

Have you ever considered, that not everybody should be dealing high-end DPS? And that the AVERAGE PLAYER should deal AVERAGE DPS? As with everything in life, practice makes perfect. Just as you don't expect your country to take you to the Olympics over somebody who has practiced their whole life for it, you shouldn't expect to deal the same amount of damage as somebody who has spent ages perfecting their gameplay.

And no, I don't deal high-end DPS either. But I am ok with that, since I got better stuff to do in life than to play this game 24/7. Some people don't and thus are better at this game than me. And that is absolutely ok.

What annoys me though is, that this game is losing more and more flavor b/c everything is being homogenized and dumbed down in an effort to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". How the hell did people even manage to kill normal NPCs back in the days before these past years of "raise the floor and lower the ceiling"?

francesinhalover

Galarthor wrote: »

Have you ever considered, that not everybody should be dealing high-end DPS? And that the AVERAGE PLAYER should deal AVERAGE DPS? As with everything in life, practice makes perfect. Just as you don't expect your country to take you to the Olympics over somebody who has practiced their whole life for it, you shouldn't expect to deal the same amount of damage as somebody who has spent ages perfecting their gameplay.

And no, I don't deal high-end DPS either. But I am ok with that, since I got better stuff to do in life than to play this game 24/7. Some people don't and thus are better at this game than me. And that is absolutely ok.

What annoys me though is, that this game is losing more and more flavor b/c everything is being homogenized and dumbed down in an effort to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling". How the hell did people even manage to kill normal NPCs back in the days before these past years of "raise the floor and lower the ceiling"?

i also wish this update was reverted, but we all know it won't happen, that being said when the average dps is around 60k and the highest dps is 140k i do think there's a hugeee gap. but i think having it so all classes can at least be near each other in dmg is more important.

Pelanora

Galarthor wrote: »

Have you ever considered, that not everybody should be dealing high-end DPS? And that the AVERAGE PLAYER should deal AVERAGE DPS? As with everything in life, practice makes perfect. Just as you don't expect your country to take you to the Olympics over somebody who has practiced their whole life for it, you shouldn't expect to deal the same amount of damage as somebody who has spent ages perfecting their gameplay.

This is such a good point, made in various ways by various posters.

I've never seen it explained why 'obscene damage' as zos has said, at the very tip of the tail of player ability, is actually an issue, for the bulk of players. It's been taken as a given that is bad, therefore changes. WHY is it bad? WHO cares? WHY should you, an average player, get to be an exceptional player, WITHOUT training and ability?

It's like banning the Olympics because it takes me five minutes to swim a single length. And yes the Olympics pools get longer as we get better at training swimmers. The tail lengthens there too.

JustAGoodPlayer

It is not olimpics. It is not even cybersport.

If in game 1 skill do not press per minute - it can be concidered low skilled gameplay.

Here 9 skills can do not press per 10 seconds.

Serios players will not even play seriosly such thing.

So it is some kind of casual olimpics )))

BretonMage

Galarthor wrote: »

Have you ever considered, that not everybody should be dealing high-end DPS? And that the AVERAGE PLAYER should deal AVERAGE DPS? As with everything in life, practice makes perfect. Just as you don't expect your country to take you to the Olympics over somebody who has practiced their whole life for it, you shouldn't expect to deal the same amount of damage as somebody who has spent ages perfecting their gameplay.

Some average players might want to get better and reach endgame. If top end DPS continues to rise, and more and more content is created for the top enders, that leaves the average players playing catch up over greater and greater distances. It can be demoralising.

Everest_Lionheart wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

aight, so how do you nerf the top so the bottom can catch up like z wants to do?

You make the sets that require perfect weaving like AY, Kinras, Rele, Tzogvin, etc, more forgiving. The tooltips on those sets say 5 seconds but they often fall off after 4. Extend them all to 10 stacks and increase the duration to 10 seconds. Front load the power into the first 5 stacks with diminishing returns for the last 5 stacks.

Those mid level players struggling to get off their back bar no longer have to rush, often missing an LA in the process which may be needed to proc an enchant or stacks on another skill like NB bow procs which adds up to even more DPS loss.

In other words leave the top alone, reduce LA power of you want maybe cap some groups buffs to reign in damage such as with the changes to engulfing flames. Make the powerful sets more accessible to the mid and lower tier players and the gap will close without the need to overhaul the entire combat system.

Perfect. Thank you.

This would also be good for ZOS to keep in mind when designing future sets.

thorwyn

Some average players might want to get better and reach endgame. If top end DPS continues to rise, and more and more content is created for the top enders, that leaves the average players playing catch up over greater and greater distances. It can be demoralising.

Players who want to get better have all the tools to do so. Nothing stops them. Keep practicing, keep reading about the mechanics and strategies, keep reading about builds, keep looking for a solid group and that's it. Of all the points that OP has mentioned, only two are real deal breakers for that process, the first one is lag and the second one - to a lesser extend - is his social anxiety. Everything else can be solved by putting a little effort into the game you play. Is that really too much to ask?
Catching up is far easier than you think it is, because mid tier players and top tier players are not progressing at the same pace. It is far easier to improve your DPS from 40k to 90k than from 110k to 120k. Sure, there will always be better players out there, but that's life. Noone stops playing snooker because Ronnie OSullivan being able to score 147 breaks is demoralizing.

Tannus15

thorwyn wrote: »

Some average players might want to get better and reach endgame. If top end DPS continues to rise, and more and more content is created for the top enders, that leaves the average players playing catch up over greater and greater distances. It can be demoralising.

Players who want to get better have all the tools to do so. Nothing stops them. Keep practicing, keep reading about the mechanics and strategies, keep reading about builds, keep looking for a solid group and that's it. Of all the points that OP has mentioned, only two are real deal breakers for that process, the first one is lag and the second one - to a lesser extend - is his social anxiety. Everything else can be solved by putting a little effort into the game you play. Is that really too much to ask?
Catching up is far easier than you think it is, because mid tier players and top tier players are not progressing at the same pace. It is far easier to improve your DPS from 40k to 90k than from 110k to 120k. Sure, there will always be better players out there, but that's life. Noone stops playing snooker because Ronnie OSullivan being able to score 147 breaks is demoralizing.

simply not true. there is also a limit on what people can achieve. you can get a lot done by practise and hard work, but i know people who spent hundreds of hours on vMA and never cleared. in the end the decided it was too hard and just stopped.

I'm not saying everyone should be able to get trifectas, but don't pretend we're all physically, mentally or emotionally capable of the same successes.

the question needs to be where the goal posts are set and what content is acceptable to be out of reach.

thorwyn

simply not true. there is also a limit on what people can achieve. you can get a lot done by practise and hard work, but i know people who spent hundreds of hours on vMA and never cleared. in the end the decided it was too hard and just stopped.

I'm not saying everyone should be able to get trifectas, but don't pretend we're all physically, mentally or emotionally capable of the same successes.

the question needs to be where the goal posts are set and what content is acceptable to be out of reach.

I did not say everyone is able to reach top tier level! I said everyone has access to the learning process and getting better is a result of said learning process. Yes, every person has an individual limit, but that's how it is in every aspect of life.

mocap

this is probably the first time I see a player talking about high DPS not from the position of a parse dummy, but from the position of real combat. Respect !

Galarthor

Tannus15 wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Some average players might want to get better and reach endgame. If top end DPS continues to rise, and more and more content is created for the top enders, that leaves the average players playing catch up over greater and greater distances. It can be demoralising.

Players who want to get better have all the tools to do so. Nothing stops them. Keep practicing, keep reading about the mechanics and strategies, keep reading about builds, keep looking for a solid group and that's it. Of all the points that OP has mentioned, only two are real deal breakers for that process, the first one is lag and the second one - to a lesser extend - is his social anxiety. Everything else can be solved by putting a little effort into the game you play. Is that really too much to ask?
Catching up is far easier than you think it is, because mid tier players and top tier players are not progressing at the same pace. It is far easier to improve your DPS from 40k to 90k than from 110k to 120k. Sure, there will always be better players out there, but that's life. Noone stops playing snooker because Ronnie OSullivan being able to score 147 breaks is demoralizing.

simply not true. there is also a limit on what people can achieve. you can get a lot done by practise and hard work, but i know people who spent hundreds of hours on vMA and never cleared. in the end the decided it was too hard and just stopped.

I'm not saying everyone should be able to get trifectas, but don't pretend we're all physically, mentally or emotionally capable of the same successes.

the question needs to be where the goal posts are set and what content is acceptable to be out of reach.

Sorry, but if "you" spend hundreds of hours in vMA and can't clear it, then "you" are the problem, not the game.
Like most content it is just about memorizing the mechanics! You don't need 120k parse DPS to clear it. You could do vMA with a 1 bar build even before Oakensoul existed.

Keep in mind, this is coming from somebody who is dealing anything but high-end DPS!

Jazraena

Highend, optimized groups dealing extreme DPS is, by itself, indeed not a problem - and the OP hasn't stated such far as I have seen. We can observe however that this group optimization is a source, even a primary source, of this massive gap between ceiling and floor that ZOS wants to lessen. That too, by itself, is not a problem - a lessened gap makes it easier for people to reach or at least come closer to the ceiling instead of it ever moving further away, and it's easier for the design team to balance content; you just have to make sure you don't trivialize the extra effort these high end groups pour into their performance in the same vein.

But where I do see a problem is a) ZOS attempting to nerf individual character power to lessen that gap, because that will never work given the source are multipliers, not base values and b) this must invariably be accompanied by adjustments to content difficulty.

Lets be honest, content difficulty is just as much if not more over the place than damage numbers. There are extreme gaps in difficulty, and the difficulty names aren't really helping you either. Some dungeon normals are harder than some dungeon vets, even, and no normal adequately prepares you for their own vet either.

Seems to me any adjustment really needs to take all of that into account and do it's damndest not to break well-established groups at the same time.

BretonMage

thorwyn wrote: »

Some average players might want to get better and reach endgame. If top end DPS continues to rise, and more and more content is created for the top enders, that leaves the average players playing catch up over greater and greater distances. It can be demoralising.

Players who want to get better have all the tools to do so. Nothing stops them. Keep practicing, keep reading about the mechanics and strategies, keep reading about builds, keep looking for a solid group and that's it. Of all the points that OP has mentioned, only two are real deal breakers for that process, the first one is lag and the second one - to a lesser extend - is his social anxiety. Everything else can be solved by putting a little effort into you play.
Catching up is far easier than you think it is, because mid tier players and top tier players are not progressing at the same pace. It is far easier to improve your DPS from 40kS to 90k than from 110k to 120k. Sure, there will always be better players out there, but that's life. Noone stops playing snooker because he is demoralized that Ronnie OSullivan is able to score 147 breaks.

Do they, though? I've done, and still do, all you've mentioned (practise regularly, read articles/posts, watch videos), and it has barely been enough to maintain my DPS. Am I missing something? Have people here already accepted that you need herculean levels of effort just to be able to do a normal trial?

At some stage, I think, in a game that I pay for, practise for, and participate in daily, I feel like I should be able to participate in most of the content. I don't need competitive-level DPS, I just want to experience the content (at a level of challenge that is interesting, not asking for story mode).

Whiskey_JG

Excellent post.

Your list provides all the obstacles that an average player has to go through until they reach end game. And after reading them all in the same list, they DO actually look overwhelming.

I do not understand how ZOS chooses to sideline problems you listed and simply put the blame on the high dps numbers achieved by the top 10% of players.

In my opinion the top things that would greatly improve the quality of life for average players:
1) Provide an in-game tutorial on how to optimize your dps setup (the current recommended skill morphs make no sense)
2) Certain features that are currently catered by addons, should be added to base game (like simple dps counters or buff upkeep timers). This would help average players improve their uptimes, giving value to their group.
3) Mythic like the Oakensoul ring provided a solution to people who are unable to learn complicated rotations, so pls do not nerf
4) Some quests should be altered to help the player improve their combat. For eg integrate the importance of Major Slayer group buff via a quest, where you have to provide the npcs that buff to clear the content. Since most low tier players tend to focus on the quests, we should integrate these fundamental concepts in quests.

I remember when I was still level 35, I got a quest to do Halls of Fabrication. Me and my buddy, also level 32 went in there thinking it was a regular quest. Needless to say we died in a minute.....but we had no clue as to why the monsters in there were so strong. The game did not indicate that we needed a 12 man group, nor did it indicate that it was a special content.
The game needs to emphasize more the difference between overland, dungeon and trial.

thorwyn

Do they, though? I've done, and still do, all you've mentioned (practise regularly, read articles/posts, watch videos), and it has barely been enough to maintain my DPS. Am I missing something? Have people here already accepted that you need herculean levels of effort just to be able to do a normal trial?

At some stage, I think, in a game that I pay for, practise for, and participate in daily, I feel like I should be able to participate in most of the content. I don't need competitive-level DPS, I just want to experience the content (at a level of challenge that is interesting, not asking for story mode).

You don't need much DPS to play a normal trial. In fact, you don't even need a rotation for normal content. Basically all you need is LA+spammable, which should get you to around 20k dps. That is sufficient DPS for a normal trial. Everything above that is a bonus. I joined the weekly guild raid the other day, we ran vHRC and vSO.. and some DD's were below 10k and we still finished the raid.

I don't know where you are struggling with your DPS but I am fairly sure that a closer look at one of your parse logs would identify the problem pretty quickly. In most cases it is parsing too fast and losing LA's and skills on the way.

Tannus15

Galarthor wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Some average players might want to get better and reach endgame. If top end DPS continues to rise, and more and more content is created for the top enders, that leaves the average players playing catch up over greater and greater distances. It can be demoralising.

Players who want to get better have all the tools to do so. Nothing stops them. Keep practicing, keep reading about the mechanics and strategies, keep reading about builds, keep looking for a solid group and that's it. Of all the points that OP has mentioned, only two are real deal breakers for that process, the first one is lag and the second one - to a lesser extend - is his social anxiety. Everything else can be solved by putting a little effort into the game you play. Is that really too much to ask?
Catching up is far easier than you think it is, because mid tier players and top tier players are not progressing at the same pace. It is far easier to improve your DPS from 40k to 90k than from 110k to 120k. Sure, there will always be better players out there, but that's life. Noone stops playing snooker because Ronnie OSullivan being able to score 147 breaks is demoralizing.

simply not true. there is also a limit on what people can achieve. you can get a lot done by practise and hard work, but i know people who spent hundreds of hours on vMA and never cleared. in the end the decided it was too hard and just stopped.

I'm not saying everyone should be able to get trifectas, but don't pretend we're all physically, mentally or emotionally capable of the same successes.

the question needs to be where the goal posts are set and what content is acceptable to be out of reach.

Sorry, but if "you" spend hundreds of hours in vMA and can't clear it, then "you" are the problem, not the game.
Like most content it is just about memorizing the mechanics! You don't need 120k parse DPS to clear it. You could do vMA with a 1 bar build even before Oakensoul existed.

Keep in mind, this is coming from somebody who is dealing anything but high-end DPS!

yes, this is my point. some people have put in a lot of time and effort and are still incapable. I try to avoid statements like "Everything else can be solved by putting a little effort into the game you play." because a lot of people have put a lot of effort in and are still incapable. they watch the tutorials, they practise on the dummy, they spend so much time beating their head against the content and still can't do it.

i'm not saying the content should be nerfed or anything rebalanced, i'm just pointing out that it's very easy for those of us who can to make assumptions that the reason people can't is because "they are lazy" or something.
some people just can't.

I was extremely happy for a lot of people when they made maelstrom weapons drop on normal because every pve build calls for them and a lot of people felt locked out because they couldn't get them.

jaws343

Tannus15 wrote: »

Galarthor wrote: »

Tannus15 wrote: »

thorwyn wrote: »

Some average players might want to get better and reach endgame. If top end DPS continues to rise, and more and more content is created for the top enders, that leaves the average players playing catch up over greater and greater distances. It can be demoralising.

Players who want to get better have all the tools to do so. Nothing stops them. Keep practicing, keep reading about the mechanics and strategies, keep reading about builds, keep looking for a solid group and that's it. Of all the points that OP has mentioned, only two are real deal breakers for that process, the first one is lag and the second one - to a lesser extend - is his social anxiety. Everything else can be solved by putting a little effort into the game you play. Is that really too much to ask?
Catching up is far easier than you think it is, because mid tier players and top tier players are not progressing at the same pace. It is far easier to improve your DPS from 40k to 90k than from 110k to 120k. Sure, there will always be better players out there, but that's life. Noone stops playing snooker because Ronnie OSullivan being able to score 147 breaks is demoralizing.

simply not true. there is also a limit on what people can achieve. you can get a lot done by practise and hard work, but i know people who spent hundreds of hours on vMA and never cleared. in the end the decided it was too hard and just stopped.

I'm not saying everyone should be able to get trifectas, but don't pretend we're all physically, mentally or emotionally capable of the same successes.

the question needs to be where the goal posts are set and what content is acceptable to be out of reach.

Sorry, but if "you" spend hundreds of hours in vMA and can't clear it, then "you" are the problem, not the game.
Like most content it is just about memorizing the mechanics! You don't need 120k parse DPS to clear it. You could do vMA with a 1 bar build even before Oakensoul existed.

Keep in mind, this is coming from somebody who is dealing anything but high-end DPS!

yes, this is my point. some people have put in a lot of time and effort and are still incapable. I try to avoid statements like "Everything else can be solved by putting a little effort into the game you play." because a lot of people have put a lot of effort in and are still incapable. they watch the tutorials, they practise on the dummy, they spend so much time beating their head against the content and still can't do it.

i'm not saying the content should be nerfed or anything rebalanced, i'm just pointing out that it's very easy for those of us who can to make assumptions that the reason people can't is because "they are lazy" or something.
some people just can't.

I was extremely happy for a lot of people when they made maelstrom weapons drop on normal because every pve build calls for them and a lot of people felt locked out because they couldn't get them.

It's hard to reason with the players who think everyone should be at their level with a little effort. It's the same playerset who think overland content is too easy while other players are still dying to quest and delve/public dungeon bosses, and they are sweeping through in trial setups wondering why everything is melting.

Jazraena

thorwyn wrote: »

Do they, though? I've done, and still do, all you've mentioned (practise regularly, read articles/posts, watch videos), and it has barely been enough to maintain my DPS. Am I missing something? Have people here already accepted that you need herculean levels of effort just to be able to do a normal trial?

At some stage, I think, in a game that I pay for, practise for, and participate in daily, I feel like I should be able to participate in most of the content. I don't need competitive-level DPS, I just want to experience the content (at a level of challenge that is interesting, not asking for story mode).

You don't need much DPS to play a normal trial. In fact, you don't even need a rotation for normal content. Basically all you need is LA+spammable, which should get you to around 20k dps. That is sufficient DPS for a normal trial. Everything above that is a bonus. I joined the weekly guild rate the other day, we ran vHRC and vSO.. and some DD's were below 10k and we still finished the raid.

I don't know where you are struggling with your DPS but I am fairly sure that a closer look at one of your parse logs would identify the problem pretty quickly. In most cases it is parsing too fast and losing LA's and skills on the way.

For emphasis, this. Normal Trials are fairly chill all the way up to Dreadsail Reef. Plenty Normal DLC Dungeons are harder than some Normal Trials, and even DSR isn't bad once you know what to do. Any damage checks are very forgiving on Normal.

axi

There is only two reasons why AVERAGE players cant reach HIGH END DPS and that reasons are lack of skill or lack of practice , very often lack of both. The very definition of high end DPS can be described as DPS achieved by most skilled and/or dedicated players and average player do not belong to that group. If someone decides to play casually because of any reason than he/she cannot expect to achieve high end DPS. No matter how much developer would try, it's impossible to expect that average players will be able to pull high end numbers because veterans will be always better at this.

Jazraena

axi wrote: »

There is only two reason why AVERAGE players cant reach HIGH END DPS and that reasons are lack of skill or lack or practice , very often lack of both. The very definition of high end DPS can be described as DPS achieved by most skilled and/or dedicated players and average player do not belong to that group. If someone decides to play casually because of any reason than he/she cannot expect to achieve high end DPS.

Now go do a parse on the 3 mil dummy, then one on the trial dummy, take a deep breath, think, and explain to me why the latter is twice as high as the former when it's all down to 'skill'.

Reading more than the headline is a good idea now and then, mate.