This is why average players can't reach high end dps.

francesinhalover

- Synergies - hard to activate, i rarely do, when i do...i mess my rotation.

- keeping dots up - hard to do when dot durations don't mix with each other and are short.

- light attack weaving - i can kill trial dummys without failing 1 light sttack.
But my speed is slow and there's many abilities that when used are hard to follow with a light attack. Scalding rune is awfull to use for example.

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

- Jewelary upgrades - wayyy to expensive, i never upgraded my jewelary, granted i'm poor.

- Special effects - other player special effects make it a lot harder to see during rotations.

- lagg - Having to ask trial members to disable pets helps the lagg.

- Too many mechanics - gotta study for 1 hr!

- Insta kill mechanics - Not fun when one player death can mean a whole team wipe.

- Insta kill aoe near the boss - makes it hard for close ranged players to dodge.

Bar swapping - There was a mythic...but got destroyed on the pts.

- lackluster spammables - players might avoid class spammables over how they look and feel and use weaker ones. Looking at you skills that aren't veiled strike. Rip jabs.

- Social aspect

- 5 second duration set's like advancing yokeda, kinra's , they don't let players do more than 2* dots before barswapping, it just complicates things so much.

My question is does this update fix any of the problems low - mid skill players have?

MentalxHammer

Just want to mention you say, “there’s many abilities that are hard to follow with a light attack”. But light attack weaving refers to the cancellation of light attack animation with skills, so your train of thought should be to land a light attack directly before a skill, not after.

MudcrabAttack

francesinhalover wrote: »

- light attack weaving - i can kill trial dummys without failing 1 light sttack.
But my speed is slow and there's many abilities that when used are hard to follow with a light attack. Scalding rune is awfull to use for example.

Is this still happening for you on the pts? I heard a comment about weaving improvements on PTS while watching a Nefas video, so I made a ranged ground cast skill load-out to test on a bow build. It was smooth action, very surprisingly smooth when I tested it, no hitches or slowdowns at all from 20 meters away from the target

francesinhalover

MentalxHammer wrote: »

Just want to mention you say, “there’s many abilities that are hard to follow with a light attack”. But light attack weaving refers to the cancellation of light attack animation with skills, so your train of thought should be to land a light attack directly before a skill, not after.

And what happens after you land the skill? Another light attack.

Other skills outside of scalding rune are lightning splash, crystal weapon, necro scythe somewhat,
Theres many.

BahometZ

Your list of reasons is pretty comprehensive, and i can understand them all combining for a tough time.

It's unfortunate that rather than focus on the meta support sets that are granting endgame raiders the kind of uptime and combinations of buffs that are beyond the reach of most, they've instead decided to target individual damage capacity, making the game harder for everyone, but especially the floor.

It's hard to believe they could get it so wrong.

Many skills which don't release well after a light attack, like fire rune, endless hail, winters revenge, graveyard, etc. seem specifically to fall under the quick ground cast option in your combat settings.

I and others have brought this up multiple times, that all aoes should be instant cast by default, to improve gameplay for all players, but zos has never acknowledged this, along with many other significant qol combat improvements.

With this last patch, I have given up on the developers listening anymore. They only seem to hear the loudest and most obvious complaints, and unfortunately I don't have Twitter

francesinhalover

BahometZ wrote: »

Your list of reasons is pretty comprehensive, and i can understand them all combining for a tough time.

It's unfortunate that rather than focus on the meta support sets that are granting endgame raiders the kind of uptime and combinations of buffs that are beyond the reach of most, they've instead decided to target individual damage capacity, making the game harder for everyone, but especially the floor.

It's hard to believe they could get it so wrong.

Many skills which don't release well after a light attack, like fire rune, endless hail, winters revenge, graveyard, etc. seem specifically to fall under the quick ground cast option in your combat settings.

I and others have brought this up multiple times, that all aoes should be instant cast by default, to improve gameplay for all players, but zos has never acknowledged this, along with many other significant qol combat improvements.

With this last patch, I have given up on the developers listening anymore. They only seem to hear the loudest and most obvious complaints, and unfortunately I don't have Twitter

Oh! Those skills also give me a hard time! I have twitter (so i can join giveaways) and i have no idea were ppl even go to complain.

Lebkuchen

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Synergies - hard to activate, i rarely do, when i do...i mess my rotation.

You can light attack, use an ability and use a synergy all in one second, every second. They do not share a cooldown, so they should not mess up your rotation. (I think you can even block, bash and jump in addition to that. But i never managed to do all of that in 1 second, because my fingers are not fast enough)

francesinhalover

Lebkuchen wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Synergies - hard to activate, i rarely do, when i do...i mess my rotation.

You can light attack, use an ability and use a synergy all in one second, every second. They do not share a cooldown, so they should not mess up your rotation. (I think you can even block, bash and jump in addition to that. But i never managed to do all of that in 1 second, because my fingers are not fast enough)

Usually i just get surprised spam x and stop my rotation because syg are so short in duration

FluffyBird

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Social aspect

I don't understand this one. Players are too shy to parse? They think that hitting their target too hard would be impolite?

MindOfTheSwarm

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Synergies - hard to activate, i rarely do, when i do...i mess my rotation.

- keeping dots up - hard to do when dot durations don't mix with each other and are short.

- light attack weaving - i can kill trial dummys without failing 1 light sttack.
But my speed is slow and there's many abilities that when used are hard to follow with a light attack. Scalding rune is awfull to use for example.

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

- Jewelary upgrades - wayyy to expensive, i never upgraded my jewelary, granted i'm poor.

- Special effects - other player special effects make it a lot harder to see during rotations.

- lagg - Having to ask trial members to disable pets helps the lagg.

- Too many mechanics - gotta study for 1 hr!

- Insta kill mechanics - Not fun when one player death can mean a whole team wipe.

- Insta kill aoe near the boss - makes it hard for close ranged players to dodge.

Bar swapping - There was a mythic...but got destroyed on the pts.

- lackluster spammables - players might avoid class spammables over how they look and feel and use weaker ones. Looking at you skills that aren't veiled strike. Rip jabs.

- Social aspect

My question is does this update fix any of the problems low - mid skill players have?

I personally don’t think all DoT’s should have the same durations as it becomes boring. Nothing wrong with having a long low damage per tick DoT say 10 seconds and then a very brief DPS DoT that lasts 3 seconds but it can stack multiple. Basically, a DPS DoT skill, something that doesn’t exist. It kind of did with Cutting Dive but most of that skills damage was still loaded on its burst.

francesinhalover

FluffyBird wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Social aspect

I don't understand this one. Players are too shy to parse? They think that hitting their target too hard would be impolite?

Well i have social anxiety and know other people that are shy in game.

What this causes is they don't enjoy talking too much in game, don't like the idea of being on a voice chat hearing people speak for several reasons also, or having to answer build related questions.
than we add the finding people in game to play with.

One thing is to do a daily random another is to find people to play with, at that point if you are bad or fear being bad there's a lot more pressure involved. I have a friend that's a godtier healer but she suffers from this problem so she never did any vet trial. She's like cp 2000 I used to invite her all the time for normal trials, eventually i got in trouble for that so i stoped being trial leader.

francesinhalover

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Synergies - hard to activate, i rarely do, when i do...i mess my rotation.

- keeping dots up - hard to do when dot durations don't mix with each other and are short.

- light attack weaving - i can kill trial dummys without failing 1 light sttack.
But my speed is slow and there's many abilities that when used are hard to follow with a light attack. Scalding rune is awfull to use for example.

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

- Jewelary upgrades - wayyy to expensive, i never upgraded my jewelary, granted i'm poor.

- Special effects - other player special effects make it a lot harder to see during rotations.

- lagg - Having to ask trial members to disable pets helps the lagg.

- Too many mechanics - gotta study for 1 hr!

- Insta kill mechanics - Not fun when one player death can mean a whole team wipe.

- Insta kill aoe near the boss - makes it hard for close ranged players to dodge.

Bar swapping - There was a mythic...but got destroyed on the pts.

- lackluster spammables - players might avoid class spammables over how they look and feel and use weaker ones. Looking at you skills that aren't veiled strike. Rip jabs.

- Social aspect

My question is does this update fix any of the problems low - mid skill players have?

I personally don’t think all DoT’s should have the same durations as it becomes boring. Nothing wrong with having a long low damage per tick DoT say 10 seconds and then a very brief DPS DoT that lasts 3 seconds but it can stack multiple. Basically, a DPS DoT skill, something that doesn’t exist. It kind of did with Cutting Dive but most of that skills damage was still loaded on its burst.

We think too diferent, for me anything bellow 14 sec is too low, i just like relaxing during combat to focus on not dying to insta kill stuff.
hell, if this update goes live has it is now. I will probably remove boneyard from my build and endless hail.
and farm the master bow and use poison injection + some other 20 sec dot.
thinking about doing dragonstar makes me fall asleep though.

eovogtb16_ESO

you forgot about being unable to do mechanics.

francesinhalover

eovogtb16_ESO wrote: »

you forgot about being unable to do mechanics.

I didn't, i stated on the post, you gotta study for 1hr.
even ppl that are wow so good at dungeons will have a hard time without knowing mechanics.

MindOfTheSwarm

francesinhalover wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Synergies - hard to activate, i rarely do, when i do...i mess my rotation.

- keeping dots up - hard to do when dot durations don't mix with each other and are short.

- light attack weaving - i can kill trial dummys without failing 1 light sttack.
But my speed is slow and there's many abilities that when used are hard to follow with a light attack. Scalding rune is awfull to use for example.

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

- Jewelary upgrades - wayyy to expensive, i never upgraded my jewelary, granted i'm poor.

- Special effects - other player special effects make it a lot harder to see during rotations.

- lagg - Having to ask trial members to disable pets helps the lagg.

- Too many mechanics - gotta study for 1 hr!

- Insta kill mechanics - Not fun when one player death can mean a whole team wipe.

- Insta kill aoe near the boss - makes it hard for close ranged players to dodge.

Bar swapping - There was a mythic...but got destroyed on the pts.

- lackluster spammables - players might avoid class spammables over how they look and feel and use weaker ones. Looking at you skills that aren't veiled strike. Rip jabs.

- Social aspect

My question is does this update fix any of the problems low - mid skill players have?

I personally don’t think all DoT’s should have the same durations as it becomes boring. Nothing wrong with having a long low damage per tick DoT say 10 seconds and then a very brief DPS DoT that lasts 3 seconds but it can stack multiple. Basically, a DPS DoT skill, something that doesn’t exist. It kind of did with Cutting Dive but most of that skills damage was still loaded on its burst.

We think too diferent, for me anything bellow 14 sec is too low, i just like relaxing during combat to focus on not dying to insta kill stuff.
hell, if this update goes live has it is now. I will probably remove boneyard from my build and endless hail.
and farm the master bow and use poison injection + some other 20 sec dot.
thinking about doing dragonstar makes me fall asleep though.

That’s all well and good, but it is impossible for long duration DoT’s to do high DPS at the same time, simple reason being that they can be stacked thus leading to a situation where multiple high damage DoT’s melt everything instantly. Also, on top of this people can spam their main burst ability.

As a community we have a 3 choices:

1. Have long DoT’s that hit like a wet noodle.
2. Have short DoT’s that hit like a standard DPS skill.
3. Have a mix of long and short DoT’s.

There is no other choice available. Long lasting DoT’s that deal DPS levels of damage will never be a thing.

DPS DoT’s can only exist if they last about 3 seconds. Anything beyond that leads to exploitation.

This is why a ‘true’ DoT build can’t be done. Jabs and Flurry are about the only skills that qualify, and ZoS ‘fixed’ Flurry causing it to not receive bonuses that affect Damage over Time despite it LITERALLY dealing DoT damage as evidenced by its orange numbers.

francesinhalover

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

MindOfTheSwarm wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

- Synergies - hard to activate, i rarely do, when i do...i mess my rotation.

- keeping dots up - hard to do when dot durations don't mix with each other and are short.

- light attack weaving - i can kill trial dummys without failing 1 light sttack.
But my speed is slow and there's many abilities that when used are hard to follow with a light attack. Scalding rune is awfull to use for example.

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

- Jewelary upgrades - wayyy to expensive, i never upgraded my jewelary, granted i'm poor.

- Special effects - other player special effects make it a lot harder to see during rotations.

- lagg - Having to ask trial members to disable pets helps the lagg.

- Too many mechanics - gotta study for 1 hr!

- Insta kill mechanics - Not fun when one player death can mean a whole team wipe.

- Insta kill aoe near the boss - makes it hard for close ranged players to dodge.

Bar swapping - There was a mythic...but got destroyed on the pts.

- lackluster spammables - players might avoid class spammables over how they look and feel and use weaker ones. Looking at you skills that aren't veiled strike. Rip jabs.

- Social aspect

My question is does this update fix any of the problems low - mid skill players have?

I personally don’t think all DoT’s should have the same durations as it becomes boring. Nothing wrong with having a long low damage per tick DoT say 10 seconds and then a very brief DPS DoT that lasts 3 seconds but it can stack multiple. Basically, a DPS DoT skill, something that doesn’t exist. It kind of did with Cutting Dive but most of that skills damage was still loaded on its burst.

We think too diferent, for me anything bellow 14 sec is too low, i just like relaxing during combat to focus on not dying to insta kill stuff.
hell, if this update goes live has it is now. I will probably remove boneyard from my build and endless hail.
and farm the master bow and use poison injection + some other 20 sec dot.
thinking about doing dragonstar makes me fall asleep though.

That’s all well and good, but it is impossible for long duration DoT’s to do high DPS at the same time, simple reason being that they can be stacked thus leading to a situation where multiple high damage DoT’s melt everything instantly. Also, on top of this people can spam their main burst ability.

As a community we have a 3 choices:

1. Have long DoT’s that hit like a wet noodle.
2. Have short DoT’s that hit like a standard DPS skill.
3. Have a mix of long and short DoT’s.

There is no other choice available. Long lasting DoT’s that deal DPS levels of damage will never be a thing.

DPS DoT’s can only exist if they last about 3 seconds. Anything beyond that leads to exploitation.

This is why a ‘true’ DoT build can’t be done. Jabs and Flurry are about the only skills that qualify, and ZoS ‘fixed’ Flurry causing it to not receive bonuses that affect Damage over Time despite it LITERALLY dealing DoT damage as evidenced by its orange numbers.

Yeah i used to use flurry with thaumaturge on my stam sorce, they litteraly killed my main character.

That being said, the best option for dots, is the one we have on live server.
maybe some durations could be slightly fixed, like having endless last 16 secs instead of 14 since the skill wastes 2 seconds, or having poison injection last 12/14 secs so it works much better with endless but that's it.
Hell, this update is just bad overall. for a meh player like me.

Here's a link to a poll i did. funny enough, both 10-12 and 14-16 dot duration options got the same 48%
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/611731/what-is-your-favorite-duration-for-dots#latest

pklemming

Trials are practice, rotations are practice. One of the reasons why we spend so long on a dummy is to force rotations to muscle memory. We do not think about what skill to press next in trials, it is purely mechanics. The more you do of both, the easier it gets.

I hope you mean you are asking players to remover their non-combat pets. I run potato mode in trials. it is an old machine, but I still get up to 150fps in a lot of trials, maybe dropping to 80 with a ton of adds.

People that struggle to get high dps, are those that don't want to spend the time on a dummy. That is their choice, but that is the primary reason, usually.

Amottica

1. I knew a player who is no longer here that devised a fixed rotation that was the same every time. They explained they never had to think about it in a fight. That rotation did not stress about a DoT falling off for a second or two, and they were in one of the top raid groups for the server. DoTs are not the problem.
2. LA weaving accounts for about 15% of the total damage, and any weaving (which is not difficult) will make up some of that. So this is not the problem, though de-emphasizing LAs over any basic attack would help.
3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.
4. Jewelry upgrade is a very small amount of added damage. One person I know raids with a top group wears purple gear.
5. Special effects affect everyone equally.
6. Lagg affects everyone though some have more than others. Yes, I feel for those in AUS, but even then, some top raiders are from AUS.
7. The number of mechanics is the same for everyone. It is a learning curve for everyone and is why raid groups working on their first clear call is progression. Getting their rotation down so they are not having to look at their skill bar and can focus on the actual fight helps.
8. Instakill mechanics, including AoEs are not the problem. The player needs to pay attention. Yes, I have seen players die to this same telegraphed mechanic as soon as they were rezed after dying to it already. They are not paying attention because they do not know how to fight with that character, so they are focused on their bar. They need to practice playing that character.
9. A great many good players, even average players, bar swap without issue.
10. If a player is avoiding a very good skill because they do not like it for any reason, that is a personal problem.

Outside of bad gear and skill choices. More often than not, a player has low DPS because they do not know their rotation and have to focus on their UI instead of the fight. Hence, they do not do something they need to do or die.

Lagg is the only point on the OP list that can affect one player more than another. Everything else is something we all encounter, and how well we contend with it makes the difference. Practice and the desire to practice are what make the difference.

francesinhalover

Amottica wrote: »

1. I knew a player who is no longer here that devised a fixed rotation that was the same every time. They explained they never had to think about it in a fight. That rotation did not stress about a DoT falling off for a second or two, and they were in one of the top raid groups for the server. DoTs are not the problem.
2. LA weaving accounts for about 15% of the total damage, and any weaving (which is not difficult) will make up some of that. So this is not the problem, though de-emphasizing LAs over any basic attack would help.
3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.
4. Jewelry upgrade is a very small amount of added damage. One person I know raids with a top group wears purple gear.
5. Special effects affect everyone equally.
6. Lagg affects everyone though some have more than others. Yes, I feel for those in AUS, but even then, some top raiders are from AUS.
7. The number of mechanics is the same for everyone. It is a learning curve for everyone and is why raid groups working on their first clear call is progression. Getting their rotation down so they are not having to look at their skill bar and can focus on the actual fight helps.
8. Instakill mechanics, including AoEs are not the problem. The player needs to pay attention. Yes, I have seen players die to this same telegraphed mechanic as soon as they were rezed after dying to it already. They are not paying attention because they do not know how to fight with that character, so they are focused on their bar. They need to practice playing that character.
9. A great many good players, even average players, bar swap without issue.
10. If a player is avoiding a very good skill because they do not like it for any reason, that is a personal problem.

Outside of bad gear and skill choices. More often than not, a player has low DPS because they do not know their rotation and have to focus on their UI instead of the fight. Hence, they do not do something they need to do or die.

Lagg is the only point on the OP list that can affect one player more than another. Everything else is something we all encounter, and how well we contend with it makes the difference. Practice and the desire to practice are what make the difference.

aight, so how do you nerf the top so the bottom can catch up like z wants to do?

washbern

I can understand all the reasons that you mentioned. But altering all of the above through dedication and practice is what sets a better player apart from the rest. If ZOS fix all of the above then they might as well start handing out participation achievements.

There are different difficulties of content for a reason. That's why progression groups exist. You can either learn and advance or stay in the shallow end of the pool.

Jazraena

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

MidniteOwl1913

So I have trouble weaving because of my ADHD. It's boring. Actually (and this just me personally AFAIK) it's in the worst spot borning. It requires just enough attention that I can't zen and just do it, and not enough that is engaging. Maybe if I was capable of practicing on a dummy to the point it became muscle memory that would be different, but I'm bored my attention wanders and I lose focus. Yeah ADHD...

So I discovered that healing is both fun and engaging enough for me that I have no problems with focus and that was my solution. For me, it works well. My healer is the character I use for vet content.

Amottica

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

Amottica

francesinhalover wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. I knew a player who is no longer here that devised a fixed rotation that was the same every time. They explained they never had to think about it in a fight. That rotation did not stress about a DoT falling off for a second or two, and they were in one of the top raid groups for the server. DoTs are not the problem.
2. LA weaving accounts for about 15% of the total damage, and any weaving (which is not difficult) will make up some of that. So this is not the problem, though de-emphasizing LAs over any basic attack would help.
3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.
4. Jewelry upgrade is a very small amount of added damage. One person I know raids with a top group wears purple gear.
5. Special effects affect everyone equally.
6. Lagg affects everyone though some have more than others. Yes, I feel for those in AUS, but even then, some top raiders are from AUS.
7. The number of mechanics is the same for everyone. It is a learning curve for everyone and is why raid groups working on their first clear call is progression. Getting their rotation down so they are not having to look at their skill bar and can focus on the actual fight helps.
8. Instakill mechanics, including AoEs are not the problem. The player needs to pay attention. Yes, I have seen players die to this same telegraphed mechanic as soon as they were rezed after dying to it already. They are not paying attention because they do not know how to fight with that character, so they are focused on their bar. They need to practice playing that character.
9. A great many good players, even average players, bar swap without issue.
10. If a player is avoiding a very good skill because they do not like it for any reason, that is a personal problem.

Outside of bad gear and skill choices. More often than not, a player has low DPS because they do not know their rotation and have to focus on their UI instead of the fight. Hence, they do not do something they need to do or die.

Lagg is the only point on the OP list that can affect one player more than another. Everything else is something we all encounter, and how well we contend with it makes the difference. Practice and the desire to practice are what make the difference.

aight, so how do you nerf the top so the bottom can catch up like z wants to do?

As I clearly pointed out, players need to practice. They need to know their rotation without having to think about it. Most players that die to one-shot mechanics are not paying attention to the fight because they have to look at their bars and UI. I have seen many pugs die because they were obvious to what was happening around them.

So outside of the emphasis on LA weave and poor gear and skill choices the difference in dps is mostly rooted in desire. That is the biggest difference between a top player and a mid tier player.

Everest_Lionheart

francesinhalover wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

1. I knew a player who is no longer here that devised a fixed rotation that was the same every time. They explained they never had to think about it in a fight. That rotation did not stress about a DoT falling off for a second or two, and they were in one of the top raid groups for the server. DoTs are not the problem.
2. LA weaving accounts for about 15% of the total damage, and any weaving (which is not difficult) will make up some of that. So this is not the problem, though de-emphasizing LAs over any basic attack would help.
3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.
4. Jewelry upgrade is a very small amount of added damage. One person I know raids with a top group wears purple gear.
5. Special effects affect everyone equally.
6. Lagg affects everyone though some have more than others. Yes, I feel for those in AUS, but even then, some top raiders are from AUS.
7. The number of mechanics is the same for everyone. It is a learning curve for everyone and is why raid groups working on their first clear call is progression. Getting their rotation down so they are not having to look at their skill bar and can focus on the actual fight helps.
8. Instakill mechanics, including AoEs are not the problem. The player needs to pay attention. Yes, I have seen players die to this same telegraphed mechanic as soon as they were rezed after dying to it already. They are not paying attention because they do not know how to fight with that character, so they are focused on their bar. They need to practice playing that character.
9. A great many good players, even average players, bar swap without issue.
10. If a player is avoiding a very good skill because they do not like it for any reason, that is a personal problem.

Outside of bad gear and skill choices. More often than not, a player has low DPS because they do not know their rotation and have to focus on their UI instead of the fight. Hence, they do not do something they need to do or die.

Lagg is the only point on the OP list that can affect one player more than another. Everything else is something we all encounter, and how well we contend with it makes the difference. Practice and the desire to practice are what make the difference.

aight, so how do you nerf the top so the bottom can catch up like z wants to do?

You make the sets that require perfect weaving like AY, Kinras, Rele, Tzogvin, etc, more forgiving. The tooltips on those sets say 5 seconds but they often fall off after 4. Extend them all to 10 stacks and increase the duration to 10 seconds. Front load the power into the first 5 stacks with diminishing returns for the last 5 stacks.

Those mid level players struggling to get off their back bar no longer have to rush, often missing an LA in the process which may be needed to proc an enchant or stacks on another skill like NB bow procs which adds up to even more DPS loss.

In other words leave the top alone, reduce LA power of you want maybe cap some groups buffs to reign in damage such as with the changes to engulfing flames. Make the powerful sets more accessible to the mid and lower tier players and the gap will close without the need to overhaul the entire combat system.

francesinhalover

washbern wrote: »

I can understand all the reasons that you mentioned. But altering all of the above through dedication and practice is what sets a better player apart from the rest. If ZOS fix all of the above then they might as well start handing out participation achievements.

There are different difficulties of content for a reason. That's why progression groups exist. You can either learn and advance or stay in the shallow end of the pool.

agree, garanteed several of this issues could be fixed without even hurting dps, just improving quality of life

francesinhalover

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

So I have trouble weaving because of my ADHD. It's boring. Actually (and this just me personally AFAIK) it's in the worst spot borning. It requires just enough attention that I can't zen and just do it, and not enough that is engaging. Maybe if I was capable of practicing on a dummy to the point it became muscle memory that would be different, but I'm bored my attention wanders and I lose focus. Yeah ADHD...

So I discovered that healing is both fun and engaging enough for me that I have no problems with focus and that was my solution. For me, it works well. My healer is the character I use for vet content.

tbh if lvling up didn't take forever plus mount speeds and grinds i would make a healer.
maybe the dps classes you used were a bit boring, i find necro a lot less boring than the rest so far

Jazraena

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

You misunderstand.

You posit the default assumption to be a static, organized group.

I posit that many trial groups aren't static or permanent in setup in the first place. These groups can consist of excellent players, but the very nature of the matter prohibits the individual parts to be as precisely optimized in gear choice as a permanent group; and that is were a massive bit of any performance disparity comes from.

Now, whether that is an inherently bad thing or not, if ZOS wants to narrow that disparity perhaps this hard focus on static, permanent and thus very well prepared groups is something to reconsider for them instead of hitting at individuals.

Amottica

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

You misunderstand.

You posit the default assumption to be a static, organized group.

I posit that many trial groups aren't static or permanent in setup in the first place. These groups can consist of excellent players, but the very nature of the matter prohibits the individual parts to be as precisely optimized in gear choice as a permanent group; and that is were a massive bit of any performance disparity comes from.

Now, whether that is an inherently bad thing or not, if ZOS wants to narrow that disparity perhaps this hard focus on static, permanent and thus very well prepared groups is something to reconsider for them instead of hitting at individuals.

I did not posit any assumption. I made it clear I was speaking about an organized group with good leadership. The less organized a group is the less efficient that group will be and that is expected which is something I also made clear. It’s also why players like myself do not run in craglorn pugs. I either run with a guild group or a training groups knowing those players are learning and the group will not be perfect.

And this is to be expected and not something for the devs to correct and really not an issue that needs to be focused on.

Jazraena

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

You misunderstand.

You posit the default assumption to be a static, organized group.

I posit that many trial groups aren't static or permanent in setup in the first place. These groups can consist of excellent players, but the very nature of the matter prohibits the individual parts to be as precisely optimized in gear choice as a permanent group; and that is were a massive bit of any performance disparity comes from.

Now, whether that is an inherently bad thing or not, if ZOS wants to narrow that disparity perhaps this hard focus on static, permanent and thus very well prepared groups is something to reconsider for them instead of hitting at individuals.

I did not posit any assumption. I made it clear I was speaking about an organized group with good leadership. The less organized a group is the less efficient that group will be and that is expected which is something I also made clear. It’s also why players like myself do not run in craglorn pugs. I either run with a guild group or a training groups knowing those players are learning and the group will not be perfect.

And this is to be expected and not something for the devs to correct and really not an issue that needs to be focused on.

The original statement:

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

Your opposition to that statement:

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

A static group being the average group is already a bold statement. Implying all group buffs to be available to every group is straight up factually incorrect.

Mind you, I don't think that the heavy performance difference between high end groups and some random craglorn trial group is necessarily a problem; I'm just pointing out that this is where a massive chunk of the performance difference bothering ZOS originates. So to me, at least, this is less a question of numerical adjustments and more one of fundamental design choices on how important these static trial groups should be in the game.

Amottica

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

You are zeroing in on a static trial group setup right there, which is a far cry from 'every group'.

Which, perhaps, is the primary challenge in regards to that power gap. ESO focuses hard on those static, carefully setup trial groups by design.

I agree that a poorly organized group is a problem. Just as a player needs to learn to play well so does a leader need to learn what they need to do in leading and organizing their group.

So again, the cause is the leader and group need to improve.

You misunderstand.

You posit the default assumption to be a static, organized group.

I posit that many trial groups aren't static or permanent in setup in the first place. These groups can consist of excellent players, but the very nature of the matter prohibits the individual parts to be as precisely optimized in gear choice as a permanent group; and that is were a massive bit of any performance disparity comes from.

Now, whether that is an inherently bad thing or not, if ZOS wants to narrow that disparity perhaps this hard focus on static, permanent and thus very well prepared groups is something to reconsider for them instead of hitting at individuals.

I did not posit any assumption. I made it clear I was speaking about an organized group with good leadership. The less organized a group is the less efficient that group will be and that is expected which is something I also made clear. It’s also why players like myself do not run in craglorn pugs. I either run with a guild group or a training groups knowing those players are learning and the group will not be perfect.

And this is to be expected and not something for the devs to correct and really not an issue that needs to be focused on.

The original statement:

- Group buffs - average trials don't have access to all of them.

Your opposition to that statement:

3. What group buffs are not accessible to every group? The group leader needs to make sure the buffs are being provided. If someone is not willing to wear a set bonus or use a specific skill to benefit the group, they need to be replaced as they are the problem.

A static group being the average group is already a bold statement. Implying all group buffs to be available to every group is straight up factually incorrect.

Mind you, I don't think that the heavy performance difference between high end groups and some random craglorn trial group is necessarily a problem; I'm just pointing out that this is where a massive chunk of the performance difference bothering ZOS originates. So to me, at least, this is less a question of numerical adjustments and more one of fundamental design choices on how important these static trial groups should be in the game.

Simply put. Just because a group does not employ a buff does not mean they do not have access to it. If the group chooses, actively or passively, to not use a buff that can benefit them, that is their problem and not a game design issue.