Fake tanks - Please bring something to the party.

OsUfi

It's been a long time since I ran any dungeons. RNDs in particular, if I get a long dungeon, that uses up all my game time for a night. But right now, I have a new character, a wee one bar StamHealer with whom I'm trying to get all the dungeon quest skill points and raise undaunted. Boy howdy, are there a lot of fake tanks out there at the moment.

Now, I cannot stress this enough, I do not have a problem with fake tanks as long as they bring something to the party. That can be a high DPS to blitz the dungeon, or even a single taunt.

I have a permanent Echoing Vigor up for Powerful Assault and can pretty much spam Enchanted Forest. I have Bogdans for good measure. I have mushrooms if a burst heal is needed, but otherwise, I can heal & damage with vortex, damage and debuff with swarm, and just damage with Endless Hail and a Maelstrom Bow. Basically, I can keep a team alive even in all DLC dungeons I've done so far with no tank.

Yesterday I had a day off and hit 10 dungeons on the trot. 8 out of 10 had a fake tank. Not only did I manage to out-damage each and every one of them, but they all ran around like headless chickens when attacked. Pulling bosses and mobs out of AoEs constantly. Jesus wept, that got old fast.

I went from, fake tanks are fine as long as they do high DPS to fake tanks would be fine if they didn't actively slow the party down.

Guys, come on. If you're gonna fake tank and have even a reasonably competent healer, you should be able to face tank nearly every boss in normal mode dungeons and survive.

I had one guy in two dungeons on the trot. He said "I don't know why you're complaining, I didn't die." Yes, that's because I can spam heals on you to keep you alive. So stand still when you're being attacked and stop dragging bosses out off all the teams AoEs.

As for fake tanks DPS being low, god above, if you're fake tanking with 2k cp, the basic one bar stam healer, with only a few hundred CP should not being out DPS'ing you. I don't even do parses. I only installed the combat plugin yesterday to see my numbers on heals because I didn't know if the build would work. Holy heck, how do some of you even cope with overworld content?

What happened to the fake tanks of old that used to have half the dungeon cleared by the time the other three party members had even loaded in? Or the guys that would rush through the mobs to each boss, starting the encounters, and blitzing through at high speed? Those guys were cool for RNDs. Sigh.

Fake tanks, please, I understand, I really do. And I don't mind! I promise! But please, just bring something to the party and don't slow us down. Thanks.

DivineKitty

In most Base game dungeons, you really don't need a tank, or a healer, so i can understand why at low levels it's fine to fake tank. If you die in Fungal Grotto, it was probably natural selection anyway. I can even get behind a fake tank in harder content if you're a competent DPS: Most DLC on Normal really only need a tank, and even then sometimes, it's not really needed.

Where I draw the line is Faking a role in a dungeon where you have no idea what's going on. My healer entered a RND the other day, and got Shipwrights Regret. Now, i haven't run this dungeon much, and my understanding of the mechanics was pretty barebones, but i was still confident... Until i saw my team mates. One DPS was level 46, so probably leveling an alt, and the other was about 200. I could understand why they wouldn't be too much help. Then I see the tank. I wish I hadn't. He was CP 300. He was using a one bar build, Dual Wielding. Didn't have a taunt. Didn't know the mechanics. Didn't have high DPS at all. Didn't have a clue what to do.
Cue the nest 20 minutes of these guys scrambling around like children being chased by the Bogeyman in every fight, with no tank to corral enemies and apply debuffs. We wiped 4 times, and the fact it was ONLY 4 times, was because I was pulling out all the healer tricks in the book to keep these Squishy Flesh Bags In the land of the living. If I hadn't been desperate for those sweet, sweet Transmutes, I would have ditched them at the first boss.

So TL;DR: Don't fake tank if you have no idea how dungeon mechanics work, and can't pull some weight in another useful way.

Androrix

Ummm...how about just don't fake tank at all? The truth is if someone is willing to fake tank in the first place they don't care what you want them to bring to the table. If they did, they wouldn't be someone who fake tanks.

MidniteOwl1913

Yes, fake tanks are worse than no tank in many cases. And yes the problem is getting worse. Tanking is the hardest role in my opinion and I don't think the good ones often receive the respect they deserve.

Also, I understand that many recent "balancing" nerfs have made the job harder.

Bobby's_UserID

Androrix wrote: »

Ummm...how about just don't fake tank at all? The truth is if someone is willing to fake tank in the first place they don't care what you want them to bring to the table. If they did, they wouldn't be someone who fake tanks.

Well the problem is in my opinion the difference in what people see as fake tanking.
For example, I would say I fake tank on my magblade every day for the normal dungeon reward. But I have a specific setup, I bring a taunt(Inner Beast), I bring major breach (Razor Caltrops), I even bring something to stack "harder" adds (Silver Leash).
I can survive almost everything (only exception that comes to my mind is Ulfnor in nFL, when I get feared and then eat the heavy because I can't roll dodge), since I soloed all possible dungeons, I know how to LoS/stack stuff and also bring usually ~50-70% group dps. I probably bring more to the table than a fresh cp 160 tank.

Most people I encounter don't have any problem with that, but lots of people hate "fake tanks", because the define them as inconsiderate guy, that skips queue, runs ahead, leaves trash behind, doesn't taunt, doesn't do enough damage, dies constantly and doesn't wait for people on quest/before bosses. I would agree, that those people should stop what they are doing.

EnerG

Honestly, don't give the fakers a fraction of an inch. It is disrespectful to every other group member who patiently waited their turn in que. Any dps, reguardless of content that thinks they're soo good and above waiting in line is not somebody i want in my party OR my game for that matter.

Call then out, let them know that we see you being the worst dps out of the entire party with their main chracter syndrome having arses. Seriously, every fake Ive ever come across I copy dps numbers and that shuts them up real quick.

EnerG

Bobby's_UserID wrote: »

Androrix wrote: »

Ummm...how about just don't fake tank at all? The truth is if someone is willing to fake tank in the first place they don't care what you want them to bring to the table. If they did, they wouldn't be someone who fake tanks.

Well the problem is in my opinion the difference in what people see as fake tanking.
For example, I would say I fake tank on my magblade every day for the normal dungeon reward. But I have a specific setup, I bring a taunt(Inner Beast), I bring major breach (Razor Caltrops), I even bring something to stack "harder" adds (Silver Leash).
I can survive almost everything (only exception that comes to my mind is Ulfnor in nFL, when I get feared and then eat the heavy because I can't roll dodge), since I soloed all possible dungeons, I know how to LoS/stack stuff and also bring usually ~50-70% group dps. I probably bring more to the table than a fresh cp 160 tank.

Most people I encounter don't have any problem with that, but lots of people hate "fake tanks", because the define them as inconsiderate guy, that skips queue, runs ahead, leaves trash behind, doesn't taunt, doesn't do enough damage, dies constantly and doesn't wait for people on quest/before bosses. I would agree, that those people should stop what they are doing.

You arent even fake taking though, you are tanking, you have taunt, party buffs and can survive/position mobs, thats it, thats all tanking is, you CAN be a good and still be a proper tank.

Androrix

EnerG wrote: »

Honestly, don't give the fakers a fraction of an inch. It is disrespectful to every other group member who patiently waited their turn in que. Any dps, reguardless of content that thinks they're soo good and above waiting in line is not somebody i want in my party OR my game for that matter.

Call then out, let them know that we see you being the worst dps out of the entire party with their main chracter syndrome having arses. Seriously, every fake Ive ever come across I copy dps numbers and that shuts them up real quick.

Ha ha...I am not messing with you, that's for sure!

svendf

Another one of these posts. A poster, who feels it´s ok if the fake role brings something to the group. Eight out of ten not able to bring anything to the group.

I feel it´s kind of naiv, really.

Thank god there is another mmo out there, where this isn´t posible. I truely believe this will hurt ESO in the long run.

M0ntie

100% agree. So many fake tanks aren’t even good dps. I’m of the view that if u sign up with the role of tank you should at minimum hold taunt of the boss. I’ll give I a pass if u can kill everything before it hits anyone. But most fanks are bad dps too. And the pulling all the enemies all over the place so the dungeon takes way longer is really really annoying. Honestly to fank a normal u only need a shield skill (eg harness magical) and inner fire and a self heal and know how to block and dodge roll and u are good.

_Zathras_

EnerG wrote: »

Honestly, don't give the fakers a fraction of an inch. It is disrespectful to every other group member who patiently waited their turn in que. Any dps, reguardless of content that thinks they're soo good and above waiting in line is not somebody i want in my party OR my game for that matter.

Call then out, let them know that we see you being the worst dps out of the entire party with their main chracter syndrome having arses. Seriously, every fake Ive ever come across I copy dps numbers and that shuts them up real quick.

I you.

OsUfi

svendf wrote: »

A poster, who feels it´s ok if the fake role brings something to the group. Eight out of ten not able to bring anything to the group.

I feel it´s kind of naiv, really.

Like I said in my OP, it's been a long time since I did dungeons. It used to be a case of 3 billion CP uber DPS's used to que as a fake tank and blast through the dungeon in a couple of minutes. That used to be awesome for me, as I have such a limited time to play games.

This awful fake tanking that actively slows parties down is new to me. It not naive, it's hopeful memories of violent maniacs speeding groups through content.

alcoraptor

When people stop queueing as fake DDs, I'll stop queueing as a fake tank!

But in all seriousness, this is more than just a fake tank problem. I've lost count of the number of NORMAL dungeons that I've abandoned on my (vet trials) tanks due to lack of DPS.

What ESO really needs is to get better at tutorials, so that the basic game mechs are explained - for all roles - and for dungeon mechs in general.
Far too many people, dps included, seem to have no idea about the core concepts.

Troodon80

Just another day in the world of normal DLC dungeon PUGs. (I've edited the names out (aside from my own) for naming and shaming rules, if it breaks a rule please let me know.)

"We don't need a tank, just do your job." What, you mean tank, heal, and DD? When you're going to skip the queue as a DD and sign up as a "fake" role without doing anything even remotely resembling said role (e.g. they were fake tanking, just a taunt and we're all good), you don't have any high ground to tell people to do their job.

For reference:

• I was doing ~60% of the group DPS on my healer.
• The individual who signed up as a tank didn't go to the shades on Maligalig, which you need to kill in order to end the mechanic.
• I deliberately stopped healing them during Sarydil and watched as they ran through every AoE they could find.
• We cleared the dungeon without them and I slotted a taunt for last boss.

Indeed, this individual didn't really bring anything to the group, and nothing of value was lost when they left.

A modicum of humility and a tiny bit of courtesy to your fellow players would serve you well.

alternatelder

The best solution for me is to vote to kick the fakes, if it doesn't pass, I leave. I won't waste my energy on people speed running through, skipping mobs, dragging the boss all over the place out of aoes, leaving some lowbies behind, etc.

Sarannah

I have a major issue with fake roles, as they destroy groups. Also, other players expect something from another role. You can't expect every role to build as every role when they queue for a specific role. Due to fake roles, other roles are weaker, as they have to be build as all-rounders for incase they encounter fake roles.

All roles now need selfheals due to fake healers.
All roles now need to be tanky, due to fake tanks.

Luckily as I only tank I am immune to fake tanks, and I only ever rarely encounter fake healers. Which I will kick, bad healers I have no issue with. As when you queue for a role you atleast try to perform, you are not disrespecting other players.

Queueing as a fake role means you disrespect your fellow players. I hope ZOS will start enforcing roles, and hands out accountbans for fake roles. As when you fake role, you abuse the system to gain experience and loot you did not deserve.

PS: I do not think fake DPS exists, only bad ones. They atleast waited out their full queue. Even if they are bad for the role, they did have enough respect to their fellow players to not fake role.

alcoraptor

Sarannah wrote: »

Also, other players expect something from another role.

Sarannah wrote: »

PS: I do not think fake DPS exists, only bad ones.

To me, these two statements are not compatible. As a tank, I expect the DDs to have high enough DPS in order to clear the content they've queued for. If they do not, they are not performing their role, wasting my time and disrespecting the rest of the group.

I also strongly disagree with any kind of enforcement from ZOS about the issue, particularly account bans - that just seems ridiculous and draconian.
Am I seriously expected to risk an account ban because someone claims that I am not performing my role?

etchedpixels

Its one reason I play tank or make sure my dps toons are slightly tanky and queue as tank with taunt. With a heal or two on the back bar I know I'll actually not be getting fakes.

For harder content - guiuld groups. It's not worth touching most vet or some harder normal content with randoms because of the co-ordination need and the fact the mechanics sometimes mean you can't carry a fake dd.

iaminc

That’s what you get when you don’t have standard tank classes to be used as tanks only , having a class be able to do all 3 roles and to be able to select which you Q as is what the problem is , dungeons should be standard 2 1 1 to even Q.

You’ll never stop fake tanking otherwise and another reason I would rather solo or duo dungs with Guildies.

M0ntie

ZoS could fix this by making a queue option to group 4 dps for people who are ok with fakes, and then institute a check that tanks have at least a taunt and healers have at least 1 group heal.

Kusto

Another week, another fake tank thread lol.

The problem is really the rewards. Low levels want the easy xp from random daily and transmutes, higher levels mostly transmutes. I'm cp2000 and don't really care about the xp, I just want those juicy 10 transmutes. I need alot of them so I do the daily randoms with several toons. I queue as fake tank so I don't have to wait and there's no need for real one in normals anyways. But I always use taunt and pull at least 50% of group dps. If vets gave let's say 20 transmutes then I would do them instead and use real tank. So the real problem is that the best rewards drop from the easiest content. You dont get 10 transmutes from anywhere else, not at least in 5min of your time. It doesn't make any sense that you can do a vet trial and only get 5 transmutes per trial in a week, or do vet dlc pledges hm and get 3. These normal dungeon rewards are simply too good that they attract everyone and their mom and people pick the fastest way to get them - which is fake tanking.

merpins

Got a fake tank and fake healer yesterday on a random daily. It was Depths of Malatar. They were both DPS, both died, and the party wiped against the first boss. So I waited for them to leave, took out my Ring of the Pale Order, and carried the lower level DPS through the dungeon.

Don't be a fake tank or fake healer. The only reason to do it is to skip the line as a DPS, which only takes 30 seconds to 5 minutes at most now-a-days. Don't make excuses; you wouldn't queue as a tank or a healer if you could instantly get into a random daily as a dps. You're teaching lower level players bad habits, and causing things like yesterday's dungeon I went through to happen all too often.

Carcamongus

Kusto wrote: »

Another week, another fake tank thread lol.

The problem is really the rewards. Low levels want the easy xp from random daily and transmutes, higher levels mostly transmutes. I'm cp2000 and don't really care about the xp, I just want those juicy 10 transmutes. I need alot of them so I do the daily randoms with several toons. I queue as fake tank so I don't have to wait and there's no need for real one in normals anyways. But I always use taunt and pull at least 50% of group dps. If vets gave let's say 20 transmutes then I would do them instead and use real tank. So the real problem is that the best rewards drop from the easiest content. You dont get 10 transmutes from anywhere else, not at least in 5min of your time. It doesn't make any sense that you can do a vet trial and only get 5 transmutes per trial in a week, or do vet dlc pledges hm and get 3. These normal dungeon rewards are simply too good that they attract everyone and their mom and people pick the fastest way to get them - which is fake tanking.

Yeah, but you perform the role for which you queued. Some don't do that and have the nerve to consider they're doing the group a favor.

I agree the rewards for randoms and trials make no sense. Why play Russian roulette by doing a vet random with strangers if the player can get pretty much the same return from a normal? How come you get only 5 crystals from the trial weekly, but quite more after a few rounds of BGs, which has no daily/weekly limits?

AvalonRanger

M0ntie wrote: »

ZoS could fix this by making a queue option to group 4 dps for people who are ok with fakes, and then institute a check that tanks have at least a taunt and healers have at least 1 group heal.

Agree. But people who do always cheating will probably be a liar.
Fake role players will check the box that it means "I'm genuine tank".

Just make small tesing quest for "certification" for each of role.
Just small mission like the Cragoln defending mission will work fine.

If player can display "A class grade tank certification flag" at the character or guild roster,
it'll be very helpful for team searching.

AvalonRanger

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Got a fake tank and fake healer yesterday on a random daily. It was Depths of Malatar. They were both DPS, both died, and the party wiped against the first boss. So I waited for them to leave, took out my Ring of the Pale Order, and carried the lower level DPS through the dungeon.

Don't be a fake tank or fake healer. The only reason to do it is to skip the line as a DPS, which only takes 30 seconds to 5 minutes at most now-a-days. Don't make excuses; you wouldn't queue as a tank or a healer if you could instantly get into a random daily as a dps. You're teaching lower level players bad habits, and causing things like yesterday's dungeon I went through to happen all too often.

Yea, it's a justice. Fake tank keep pushing "solo build" against the DPS character.
If I can do pure DPS build, I can obtain more damage providing. But can't do it in current game system.

MidniteOwl1913

Even for "low-level" dungeons fake tanks are a pain. Those low-level dungeons are often where there are low-level players. They need a real tank, don't kid yourself with the "it's just a normal dungeon" queueing as fake is harmful to the other players. You are the AH.

I am an actual healer and I never mind helping lower-level players thru a dungeon. And that includes new tanks, everybody needs a space to learn. Fake tanks don't deserve anything from me.

Kallykat

How can you tell who is a "fake tank" vs someone who is just inexperienced but trying to learn? When I do dungeons (which is very rarely), I tank, and I think I'm doing what I'm supposed to do as a tank. However, reading boards like this makes me scared to even attempt dungeons because I don't know if I'm doing what others expect of me or if I'm angering everyone.

chessalavakia_ESO

Kallykat wrote: »

How can you tell who is a "fake tank" vs someone who is just inexperienced but trying to learn? When I do dungeons (which is very rarely), I tank, and I think I'm doing what I'm supposed to do as a tank. However, reading boards like this makes me scared to even attempt dungeons because I don't know if I'm doing what others expect of me or if I'm angering everyone.

Here's an example of a Fake Tank from one of my runs.



As you can see they had 16k hp.

They generally have lower hp/mitigation than tanks and they tend to lack a taunt. They also generally will do more damage.

Eiregirl

Kallykat wrote: »

How can you tell who is a "fake tank" vs someone who is just inexperienced but trying to learn? When I do dungeons (which is very rarely), I tank, and I think I'm doing what I'm supposed to do as a tank. However, reading boards like this makes me scared to even attempt dungeons because I don't know if I'm doing what others expect of me or if I'm angering everyone.

If you are tanking when you do dungeons, then i would hope you can tell who the tank is...

Otherwise, if you have mobs and bosses running around attacking everyone at random...then it is likely there is no tank in the group.

Auldwulfe

I am going to point out some other sides of this, though.

I have a Templar, champion 700+ -- why? Because my DPS Sorc got to 700+ before I made the Templar ...
And, As I had to level him up to 50, I sort of played him as a hybrid tank/dps/healer -- as I ran with random groups, etc to build him up.

He sort of ended up as a Paladin, but now, I want to get into more tanking with him, as he is at a level to be useful
So I am working on transitioning him over,
I'm also in my mid 50's and not as fast as I used to be so
Front bar - Binding Javelin, Dark Flare, Shielded Assault, Pierce Armor, and Hasty Prayer
Back bar - Binding Javelin, Dark Flare, Stampede, Brawler, and Hasty Prayer, and right now, my ultimate is Crescent Seep on both. I am still learning how the skills work, as getting to 50 was easy..... and yeah, you have the champion points, but they don't show until you hit 50, and if that is a high number, everyone expects you to be an "expert"

So, at this point, I am learning - I use skills that I am comfortable with, and am working on getting used to swapping bars more often.

I used crafted armor, and have a set that gives me breach on a crit -- it isn't the best for a tank, but it is working with the rest, right now, and allows me to cover a debuff

But, the other day, I queued up as tank, as I have a taunt, on my front bar, and I am doing my best to learn -- I aggroed the bosses and did my best to keep them in the party's AOE's --- mostly by spamming my taunt and circling the AOE.

However, one guy got upset with me using the shield rush to get to bosses so that I could get the taunt in as fast as I could.... especially as I also used my stampede a couple of times with groups of small stuff between bosses .....
He tried to claim I was a "fake tank" but as one of the other players put it, I was taunting and holding bosses in AOE, I wasn't running all over the place, and I was using a taunt to hold the attention --- so the player accusing me of being a "Fake Tank" quit the group.

He, also, kept saying that anyone using a skill to enhance weapon damage (my Dark Flare) is a fake tank .... despite the fact that I use it to both enhance my ability to hold, and it gives Major Defile to target along with enemies within 8 meters.
I use the Javelin to pull things, and also to apply damage to something if I cannot get there ---
And finally, I carry a heal, because I have been in situations where my ability to drop a quick heal has saved everyone.

Now, I am working on building up, and learning the other skills - and once I unlock the rest of the fighter's guild, I may swap to Meridia's Blade ... but for now, I KNOW these skills, and am comfortable with them. I also plan on adding Inner Fire, just as soon as I get the next level on that Templar

I am open to suggestions, but I do not consider myself to be a "Fake Tank"... just an inexperienced one.
Would it not be better to help players learn to tank? I can guarantee that there are ones out there that assume that wearing heavy armor makes them a tank....... I'd suggest taking the time to verify they KNOW the role, at the beginning, as opposed to just getting upset ... it's not like the game has a plethora of instructional modes in it.

Auldwulfe

Sarannah

Auldwulfe wrote: »

I am going to point out some other sides of this, though.

I have a Templar, champion 700+ -- why? Because my DPS Sorc got to 700+ before I made the Templar ...
And, As I had to level him up to 50, I sort of played him as a hybrid tank/dps/healer -- as I ran with random groups, etc to build him up.

He sort of ended up as a Paladin, but now, I want to get into more tanking with him, as he is at a level to be useful
So I am working on transitioning him over,
I'm also in my mid 50's and not as fast as I used to be so
Front bar - Binding Javelin, Dark Flare, Shielded Assault, Pierce Armor, and Hasty Prayer
Back bar - Binding Javelin, Dark Flare, Stampede, Brawler, and Hasty Prayer, and right now, my ultimate is Crescent Seep on both. I am still learning how the skills work, as getting to 50 was easy..... and yeah, you have the champion points, but they don't show until you hit 50, and if that is a high number, everyone expects you to be an "expert"

So, at this point, I am learning - I use skills that I am comfortable with, and am working on getting used to swapping bars more often.

I used crafted armor, and have a set that gives me breach on a crit -- it isn't the best for a tank, but it is working with the rest, right now, and allows me to cover a debuff

But, the other day, I queued up as tank, as I have a taunt, on my front bar, and I am doing my best to learn -- I aggroed the bosses and did my best to keep them in the party's AOE's --- mostly by spamming my taunt and circling the AOE.

However, one guy got upset with me using the shield rush to get to bosses so that I could get the taunt in as fast as I could.... especially as I also used my stampede a couple of times with groups of small stuff between bosses .....
He tried to claim I was a "fake tank" but as one of the other players put it, I was taunting and holding bosses in AOE, I wasn't running all over the place, and I was using a taunt to hold the attention --- so the player accusing me of being a "Fake Tank" quit the group.

He, also, kept saying that anyone using a skill to enhance weapon damage (my Dark Flare) is a fake tank .... despite the fact that I use it to both enhance my ability to hold, and it gives Major Defile to target along with enemies within 8 meters.
I use the Javelin to pull things, and also to apply damage to something if I cannot get there ---
And finally, I carry a heal, because I have been in situations where my ability to drop a quick heal has saved everyone.

Now, I am working on building up, and learning the other skills - and once I unlock the rest of the fighter's guild, I may swap to Meridia's Blade ... but for now, I KNOW these skills, and am comfortable with them. I also plan on adding Inner Fire, just as soon as I get the next level on that Templar

I am open to suggestions, but I do not consider myself to be a "Fake Tank"... just an inexperienced one.
Would it not be better to help players learn to tank? I can guarantee that there are ones out there that assume that wearing heavy armor makes them a tank....... I'd suggest taking the time to verify they KNOW the role, at the beginning, as opposed to just getting upset ... it's not like the game has a plethora of instructional modes in it.

Auldwulfe

Sorry you had to go through that. As a tank myself, there are sometimes people who will never be satisfied. Or people who think they can control how others play. There can also be situations that players do not know what they think they know, leading to misinformation. Or you get placed in a midrun group where the tensions were already high. Sometimes a run is simply not going to work out. Accept it, and move on.

Do not get discouraged though, and keep queueing. One run you are the hero, and the next you are called bad. I've messed up a few runs myself, or had forgotten mechanics myself. It happens, just keep going. The worst thing you can do, is stop queueing after a bad run, or after having experienced bad people. As that would keep your last run a bad one, and makes you not wanting to queue up anymore.

There are many ways to tank, just do it how you feel is best. Although there is always room for improvement! Goodluck!

PS: Do not run circles with a boss, always keep them faced away from the other players.