Sub Assault/Deep Fissure Changes

MentalxHammer

I’d like to start by saying that I’m mainly a PvP player; I love playing warden, but it’s long been one of the worst classes in PvP, making it not very fun to play. The changes to the scorch morphs will exacerbate their lack of viability in PvP.

It appears the developers are treating this skill like a DOT, and are reducing its damage and increasing the duration timers as a result. It does not operate like a DOT and is a delayed burst skill, similar to blastbones; so it doesn’t make sense to treat it like a DOT as DOTS can be set on a target and forgotten about, and sub assault requires positioning to line up.

This skill is the hallmark damage skill of warden, and the rework will further push the class into a less viable state. This skill is already very easy to avoid and completely negate the damage, additionally it can be mitigated by major evasion, and can for some reason be dodge rolled even though it is an aoe. There is simply no reason to decrease the damage by 8%, most end game PvP players I speak to agree that it’s damage should be increased to be in line with blastbones, as they are very similar skills, but scorch is just a worse version.

Additionally, the large time delay between the first and second casts makes the skill feel very clunky. Most decent players will take several scorch combo’s to kill because of how easy it is to avoid the damage, right now with the skill firing every 3 seconds it’s reasonably possible to keep up good pressure with the skill; with deep fissure next patch firing at 4 seconds and again at 10 seconds it will be impossible to kill any decent player with this skill, considering how easy it is to mitigate its damage.

All of these factors will make the skill extremely ineffective in PvP, and that’s not even to mention the skill cost increase. Sub assault/deep fissure does not need its damage per second reduced, it is not a DOT. If anything it needs it’s effectiveness increased as warden is well known as a low tier PvP class.

MashmalloMan

This is just my guess, but I don't think ZOS based their decision here entirely on dots and the comparison to Blastbones is no longer valid.

Originally, sure, Warden and Necro have a ton of similarites, starting with the 3s delay for their burst skill.

What is more likely is they have shifted the idea behind Scorch from it being a single fire delayed burst skill as it was originally intended (aka, Blastbones or PoTL) to a double fire delayed burst skill (aka, Haunting Curse).

The double proc is no longer only for stam, it's the entire identity of the skill (love or hate it) to the point where both morphs have it, only differing in time to launch. This is identical to Haunting Curse.

So with that in mind, take a look at what Haunting Curse does in comparison and you can see a more obvious power similarity between the 2.

From eso skillbook for live values:

• 3240 Scorch
• 2999 Curse

3240 x .92 = 2980

So esentially the same damage now, within 1% of each other. They both tick twice, they both have some aoe element to them. Without getting too much into which skill or class is better (they're both crap in pvp/pve now), as I'm not looking to start any sort of debate regarding that, I'm just trying to show the logic they used for the standardization they most likely used.

Haunting Curse:

1. Sticky.
2. Undodgeable.
3. 3.5s tick + 7.5s tick.
4. AoE (Half the damage)
5. Only 1 target, but long range.
6. No element synergy.

Scorch:

1. Self Cast.
2. Dodgeable.
3. 3s tick + 5s tick OR 4s tick + 6s tick.
4. AoE
5. Large rectangle, but limited to medium range.
6. No element synergy OR 10% Mag Damage Synergy.
7. No debuff OR -9k major pen debuffs.

TLDR: Scorch and Haunting Curse are most likely balanced against each other, thus the similar effects and damage done.

MashmalloMan

Now do I agree with that mentality? Hell no. Lets just get rid of all class idenity all together at this point. When you balance class skills, pillars of what makes them unique against each other, you lose power fantasy. Class skills should be alowed to be OP when they are pretty much the sole reason to play the class in the first place.

You don't play a Warden if you don't enjoy Scorch, it's their thing.

It also doesn't take into full context what a class is capable of. What they should be good at. A Warden doesn't have as much delayed burst, but they're generally tankier than a Sorc.

The question should be what is a classes power fantasy, what are they meant to be good at and how can we support that idea through their kit.

The changes to classes simply don't take into context what Warden or Sorc are SUPPOSE to be good at.

Imo, at face value, Sorc should be squishy, relying on speed, evasion, delayed single target burst.. but ZOS is against that for some reason. Well okay, but if we don't have that, what do we have?

For Warden, they should be the medium range brawler, frost damage for slows and maim for damage reduction supports this idea, Scorch is the bread and butter, and supports this idea, yet do they play that way? Are they best at that? How do you distinguish that from long range or short range melee like DK/Plar?

They're failing at class identity gloriously.

MentalxHammer

@MashmalloMan you’re spot on that ZOS is balancing scorch similarly to haunting curse, and all of your sentiments are really good points. It’s a shame ZOS is balancing the skill assuming the only targets on the receiving end are basically target dummies. Between positioning, major evasion, and dodge a player would have to be basically AFK to die to a player using a deep fissure combo.

BahometZ

Its a zerg busting skill on a zerg busting class

Mr_Stach

BahometZ wrote: »

Its a zerg busting skill on a zerg busting class

Well you're in luck, they nerfed the damage and messed up the timing so your Zerg Ball will probably be fine.

ESO_Nightingale

not a fan of the timing changes, still needs to deal frost damage.

Mr_Stach

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

not a fan of the timing changes, still needs to deal frost damage.

Still waiting for the day

woe

I think the skill is completely stupid like this and needs to be reverted

ESO_Nightingale

Mr_Stach wrote: »

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

not a fan of the timing changes, still needs to deal frost damage.

Still waiting for the day

animals don't really look like that, but they would if the animations were changed to icewraiths bursting out of the ground like they do with 1 of their attacks.

Lughlongarm

I actually like it better this way.

-4 sec is arguably better for doing big burst combos. The extra 1 sec means nothing for damage output in PVP.
-You can now have the skill on your off-bar like some templars like to run power of the light.

-With 10 sec duration the skill will be active most of the time, even while doing buff rotations, healing, being CCed etc... The over all uptime of the skill for the average player will increase dramatically.

-Sure you lose some damage, but now Wardens are not forced to go ~35k health in order to have a reasonable burst heal. You can build purely for damage. I think you can push like ~5% more damage now compared to live from gear choices.

-Regarding, changing damage type and animation flavor, this could be a killer expansion feature, which I think also will have a very minimal balance application. So Ice version for deep fissure, Poison version of lava whip etc... Much better than a card game in my opinion. Its even a monetization opportunity.

Zodiarkslayer

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I actually like it better this way.

-4 sec is arguably better for doing big burst combos. The extra 1 sec means nothing for damage output in PVP.
-You can now have the skill on your off-bar like some templars like to run power of the light.

-With 10 sec duration the skill will be active most of the time, even while doing buff rotations, healing, being CCed etc... The over all uptime of the skill for the average player will increase dramatically.

-Sure you lose some damage, but now Wardens are not forced to go ~35k health in order to have a reasonable burst heal. You can build purely for damage. I think you can push like ~5% more damage now compared to live from gear choices.

-Regarding, changing damage type and animation flavor, this could be a killer expansion feature, which I think also will have a very minimal balance application. So Ice version for deep fissure, Poison version of lava whip etc... Much better than a card game in my opinion. Its even a monetization opportunity.

Argh... PvP... 😉

I don't like it one bit. What good is a 100% uptime, if 80% of the time it's only a timer ticking down with no effect?

Mr_Stach

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I actually like it better this way.

-4 sec is arguably better for doing big burst combos. The extra 1 sec means nothing for damage output in PVP.
-You can now have the skill on your off-bar like some templars like to run power of the light.

The issue is mostly Cadence, people like consistency. Some people already have issues aiming Shalks, now you have 2 bursts with different timing, those people are going to struggle even more.

Also you still have 8% damage nerf. Just sayin.

Lughlongarm

Zodiarkslayer wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I actually like it better this way.

-4 sec is arguably better for doing big burst combos. The extra 1 sec means nothing for damage output in PVP.
-You can now have the skill on your off-bar like some templars like to run power of the light.

-With 10 sec duration the skill will be active most of the time, even while doing buff rotations, healing, being CCed etc... The over all uptime of the skill for the average player will increase dramatically.

-Sure you lose some damage, but now Wardens are not forced to go ~35k health in order to have a reasonable burst heal. You can build purely for damage. I think you can push like ~5% more damage now compared to live from gear choices.

-Regarding, changing damage type and animation flavor, this could be a killer expansion feature, which I think also will have a very minimal balance application. So Ice version for deep fissure, Poison version of lava whip etc... Much better than a card game in my opinion. Its even a monetization opportunity.

Argh... PvP... 😉

I don't like it one bit. What good is a 100% uptime, if 80% of the time it's only a timer ticking down with no effect?

Just to be fair, the original thread is mainly a PvP perspective.
If you want burst, you can press it any time you want to set up the burst regardless to duration. If you want constant pressure while you do other things(which you probably want), just keep it active.

Lughlongarm

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Lughlongarm wrote: »

I actually like it better this way.

-4 sec is arguably better for doing big burst combos. The extra 1 sec means nothing for damage output in PVP.
-You can now have the skill on your off-bar like some templars like to run power of the light.

The issue is mostly Cadence, people like consistency. Some people already have issues aiming Shalks, now you have 2 bursts with different timing, those people are going to struggle even more.

Also you still have 8% damage nerf. Just sayin.

How? Its basically an auto pilot process. Not to mentioned that the 2 proc thing has been around for Stamina for a while now.
Already addressed the 8% nerf thing, don't love it, but I think its not that of a big deal.

Stx

So... this is just from my perspective,

But I actually like these changes because I thought previously that sub assault clearly outclassed deep fissure due to the double hit, but I have always wanted to use deep fissure because I mainly play solo. So with these changes, it brings the dps of both abilities much closer, but I still get to have my 9k pen while soloing dungeons or in pvp, which is huge.

prof_doom

Stx wrote: »

So... this is just from my perspective,

But I actually like these changes because I thought previously that sub assault clearly outclassed deep fissure due to the double hit, but I have always wanted to use deep fissure because I mainly play solo. So with these changes, it brings the dps of both abilities much closer, but I still get to have my 9k pen while soloing dungeons or in pvp, which is huge.

I don't think that many people object to having fissure hit twice, it's the timing changes and damage nerf that need to be adjusted.

pikHz

prof_doom wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

So... this is just from my perspective,

But I actually like these changes because I thought previously that sub assault clearly outclassed deep fissure due to the double hit, but I have always wanted to use deep fissure because I mainly play solo. So with these changes, it brings the dps of both abilities much closer, but I still get to have my 9k pen while soloing dungeons or in pvp, which is huge.

I don't think that many people object to having fissure hit twice, it's the timing changes and damage nerf that need to be adjusted.

Yeah, I actually really like both SA and DF hitting twice. In my perfect world SA and DF would both pop at 3 and 6 seconds and the damage would be tuned to DF being more damage in a rotation if you need the Major and Minor Breach (solo/PvP), and SA being more damage if you don't (getting them from a tank for instance). I'm really gonna miss the "off-spammable" feel of the skill if the 8/10 second duractions go live.

Grimlok_S

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Now do I agree with that mentality? Hell no. Lets just get rid of all class idenity all together at this point. When you balance class skills, pillars of what makes them unique against each other, you lose power fantasy. Class skills should be alowed to be OP when they are pretty much the sole reason to play the class in the first place.

You don't play a Warden if you don't enjoy Scorch, it's their thing.

It also doesn't take into full context what a class is capable of. What they should be good at. A Warden doesn't have as much delayed burst, but they're generally tankier than a Sorc.

The question should be what is a classes power fantasy, what are they meant to be good at and how can we support that idea through their kit.

The changes to classes simply don't take into context what Warden or Sorc are SUPPOSE to be good at.

Imo, at face value, Sorc should be squishy, relying on speed, evasion, delayed single target burst.. but ZOS is against that for some reason. Well okay, but if we don't have that, what do we have?

For Warden, they should be the medium range brawler, frost damage for slows and maim for damage reduction supports this idea, Scorch is the bread and butter, and supports this idea, yet do they play that way? Are they best at that? How do you distinguish that from long range or short range melee like DK/Plar?

They're failing at class identity gloriously.

Beautiful writeup, couldn't agree more.

Class identity really has slipped and fallen since homogenization/hybridization standards came into play.

It's really boring when everything feels the same, even worse on the PTS right now.

MashmalloMan

pikHz wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

So... this is just from my perspective,

But I actually like these changes because I thought previously that sub assault clearly outclassed deep fissure due to the double hit, but I have always wanted to use deep fissure because I mainly play solo. So with these changes, it brings the dps of both abilities much closer, but I still get to have my 9k pen while soloing dungeons or in pvp, which is huge.

I don't think that many people object to having fissure hit twice, it's the timing changes and damage nerf that need to be adjusted.

Yeah, I actually really like both SA and DF hitting twice. In my perfect world SA and DF would both pop at 3 and 6 seconds and the damage would be tuned to DF being more damage in a rotation if you need the Major and Minor Breach (solo/PvP), and SA being more damage if you don't (getting them from a tank for instance). I'm really gonna miss the "off-spammable" feel of the skill if the 8/10 second duractions go live.

This is the most logical resolution to the issue imo. I'd add, they could apply major or minor breach to the base ability to help close the gap a bit in scenario's where the debuffs are common, while not forcing too much of a damage buff to stam.

Scorch - X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.

Sub Assault - X Poison Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.

• Costs stamina and now deals poison damage. Deals 15% more damage.

Deep Fissure - X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor and major breach for 10s.

• Additionally applies major breach and doubles the duration of the debuffs from 5s to 10s.

Main points.

1. Both morphs still include the -8% damage debuff to match whatever dumb standards ZOS is using from base.
2. Stam has +15% more damage, that is really +5% more than magicka due to the Frost damage passive and 7% more than live.
3. Mag has more utility and uptime on that utility for 5% less damage.
4. Mag will come out on top for damage when major breach isn't provided, as well as offering more uptime for the rest of their offense.
5. Mag now deals Frost damage.... Because it should.

Mr_Stach

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mag now deals Frost damage.... Because it should.

Remember when Zos went and made nearly all of DKs Magicka Morphs fire damage across all trees? That was an awesome stepping off point for DK. I wish they remembered that, so they could do that for Warden.

Vetixio

I wish we could use the Ice Storm and Ice Barrier spells that NPC Frost Mages use and that DKs could use the Fire Wave and Fire Runes spell that NPC Fire Mages use and that Necros could use the summons and empowering summon and dark magic spells that NPC Necromancers/Bonelords use. Why do NPCs have better class identity and skills than the players do?

Stx

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mag now deals Frost damage.... Because it should.

Remember when Zos went and made nearly all of DKs Magicka Morphs fire damage across all trees? That was an awesome stepping off point for DK. I wish they remembered that, so they could do that for Warden.

They just added more fire abilities to DK with this PTS... the difference in attention the classes get is troubling.

Stx

Vetixio wrote: »

I wish we could use the Ice Storm and Ice Barrier spells that NPC Frost Mages use and that DKs could use the Fire Wave and Fire Runes spell that NPC Fire Mages use and that Necros could use the summons and empowering summon and dark magic spells that NPC Necromancers/Bonelords use. Why do NPCs have better class identity and skills than the players do?

Because ZoS doesn't want to take the time to give more skills to players, they just nerf/buff/homogenize what we have...

MashmalloMan

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mag now deals Frost damage.... Because it should.

Remember when Zos went and made nearly all of DKs Magicka Morphs fire damage across all trees? That was an awesome stepping off point for DK. I wish they remembered that, so they could do that for Warden.

Funny because DK was already the most element synergized class with Sorc and Warden needing a freshen up, but kudos to them, step in the right direction. Maybe thats good news for the future.

ESO_Nightingale

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

Mag now deals Frost damage.... Because it should.

Remember when Zos went and made nearly all of DKs Magicka Morphs fire damage across all trees? That was an awesome stepping off point for DK. I wish they remembered that, so they could do that for Warden.

Funny because DK was already the most element synergized class with Sorc and Warden needing a freshen up, but kudos to them, step in the right direction. Maybe thats good news for the future.

I don't know if they'll standardise main damage types but they really should for sorc and warden.

Aldoss

MashmalloMan wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

So... this is just from my perspective,

But I actually like these changes because I thought previously that sub assault clearly outclassed deep fissure due to the double hit, but I have always wanted to use deep fissure because I mainly play solo. So with these changes, it brings the dps of both abilities much closer, but I still get to have my 9k pen while soloing dungeons or in pvp, which is huge.

I don't think that many people object to having fissure hit twice, it's the timing changes and damage nerf that need to be adjusted.

Yeah, I actually really like both SA and DF hitting twice. In my perfect world SA and DF would both pop at 3 and 6 seconds and the damage would be tuned to DF being more damage in a rotation if you need the Major and Minor Breach (solo/PvP), and SA being more damage if you don't (getting them from a tank for instance). I'm really gonna miss the "off-spammable" feel of the skill if the 8/10 second duractions go live.

This is the most logical resolution to the issue imo. I'd add, they could apply major or minor breach to the base ability to help close the gap a bit in scenario's where the debuffs are common, while not forcing too much of a damage buff to stam.

Scorch - X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.

Sub Assault - X Poison Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.

• Costs stamina and now deals poison damage. Deals 15% more damage.

Deep Fissure - X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor and major breach for 10s.

• Additionally applies major breach and doubles the duration of the debuffs from 5s to 10s.

Main points.

1. Both morphs still include the -8% damage debuff to match whatever dumb standards ZOS is using from base.
2. Stam has +15% more damage, that is really +5% more than magicka due to the Frost damage passive and 7% more than live.
3. Mag has more utility and uptime on that utility for 5% less damage.
4. Mag will come out on top for damage when major breach isn't provided, as well as offering more uptime for the rest of their offense.
5. Mag now deals Frost damage.... Because it should.

Pretty much this, although I think minor breach needs to get removed from SubA seeing as sundered will already apply it. I'd rather them remove it entirely to make way for more damage on the skill than keep it and use whatever spreadsheet backwards logic they use to keep the skill from hitting hard enough.

SubA always seemed weird to me that it was a lonely poison damage skill when there's no passives for it and DKs already lay claim to it.

Now that bear does bleed, it makes more sense to me to dig into the identity as a frost mage/bleed bruiser, strip most (not all) magic damage skills and change some passives around so we now get a bleed bonus.

In my ideal vision:

- Deep Fissure (which already sounds like a glacier fissure) does frost damage and applies major and minor breach, fires once after 3 seconds
- SubA does bleed and applies major breach and deals more raw damage over Deep Fissure, fires at 3, then 6 seconds after cast
- Fetcher Infection remains magic damage but does bonus damage to chilled enemies
- Growing Swarm stays as bleed but has increased chance to apply hemorrhage
- Icy Aura gets reworked into a new passive that gives a Warden guaranteed Minor Brittle when applying chill, regardless of weapon (right now, only ice staff will apply Minor Brittle) and increases hemorrhaging status by 2 ticks
- Piercing Cold drops magic damage and switches it to bleed damage
- Arctic Blast no longer heals. It deals instant frost damage and stuns the enemy for 4 seconds and always applies chilled status
- Winter's Revenge drains magicka over its duration such as DK's Ash Cloud and gains a damage bonus against chilled enemies

This would start to give warden more identity in my limited view. There's still dead skills that just need to be reworked like Dive and Frozen Device.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

MashmalloMan wrote: »

pikHz wrote: »

prof_doom wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

So... this is just from my perspective,

But I actually like these changes because I thought previously that sub assault clearly outclassed deep fissure due to the double hit, but I have always wanted to use deep fissure because I mainly play solo. So with these changes, it brings the dps of both abilities much closer, but I still get to have my 9k pen while soloing dungeons or in pvp, which is huge.

I don't think that many people object to having fissure hit twice, it's the timing changes and damage nerf that need to be adjusted.

Yeah, I actually really like both SA and DF hitting twice. In my perfect world SA and DF would both pop at 3 and 6 seconds and the damage would be tuned to DF being more damage in a rotation if you need the Major and Minor Breach (solo/PvP), and SA being more damage if you don't (getting them from a tank for instance). I'm really gonna miss the "off-spammable" feel of the skill if the 8/10 second duractions go live.

This is the most logical resolution to the issue imo. I'd add, they could apply major or minor breach to the base ability to help close the gap a bit in scenario's where the debuffs are common, while not forcing too much of a damage buff to stam.

Scorch - X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.

Sub Assault - X Poison Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor breach for 5s.

• Costs stamina and now deals poison damage. Deals 15% more damage.

Deep Fissure - X Frost Damage after 3s and 6s delay, applies minor and major breach for 10s.

• Additionally applies major breach and doubles the duration of the debuffs from 5s to 10s.

Main points.

1. Both morphs still include the -8% damage debuff to match whatever dumb standards ZOS is using from base.
2. Stam has +15% more damage, that is really +5% more than magicka due to the Frost damage passive and 7% more than live.
3. Mag has more utility and uptime on that utility for 5% less damage.
4. Mag will come out on top for damage when major breach isn't provided, as well as offering more uptime for the rest of their offense.
5. Mag now deals Frost damage.... Because it should.

Pretty much this, although I think minor breach needs to get removed from SubA seeing as sundered will already apply it. I'd rather them remove it entirely to make way for more damage on the skill than keep it and use whatever spreadsheet backwards logic they use to keep the skill from hitting hard enough.

SubA always seemed weird to me that it was a lonely poison damage skill when there's no passives for it and DKs already lay claim to it.

Now that bear does bleed, it makes more sense to me to dig into the identity as a frost mage/bleed bruiser, strip most (not all) magic damage skills and change some passives around so we now get a bleed bonus.

In my ideal vision:

- Deep Fissure (which already sounds like a glacier fissure) does frost damage and applies major and minor breach, fires once after 3 seconds
- SubA does bleed and applies major breach and deals more raw damage over Deep Fissure, fires at 3, then 6 seconds after cast
- Fetcher Infection remains magic damage but does bonus damage to chilled enemies
- Growing Swarm stays as bleed but has increased chance to apply hemorrhage
- Icy Aura gets reworked into a new passive that gives a Warden guaranteed Minor Brittle when applying chill, regardless of weapon (right now, only ice staff will apply Minor Brittle) and increases hemorrhaging status by 2 ticks
- Piercing Cold drops magic damage and switches it to bleed damage
- Arctic Blast no longer heals. It deals instant frost damage and stuns the enemy for 4 seconds and always applies chilled status
- Winter's Revenge drains magicka over its duration such as DK's Ash Cloud and gains a damage bonus against chilled enemies

This would start to give warden more identity in my limited view. There's still dead skills that just need to be reworked like Dive and Frozen Device.

Not a fan of the changes to icy aura and arctic blast. I'll explain why

Icy Aura: this makes frost dps with a frost staff entirely redundant. Minor Brittle should remain as is. Only being applied by chilled application with a frost staff. Also minor brittle seems to have been inspired by glacial presence's crit damage buff. So basically giving 2 of the same passive to a class is a bit boring.

Arctic Blast: don't remove the dot from this. We're so close to having this be a legit pve damage skill. One way to solve the current issue is to make a morph of swarm stun on hit, and to make it tick or hit faster but last for less duration and make growing swarm's effect a base skill effect. This way you have a pvp and a pve morph that you'd pick depending on what content you want to do. As it is right now growing swarm isn't picked very much.

Aldoss

I dunno, it seems weird to lock an entire status behind one specific sub-type of a weapon. If other classes want minor brittle, then make them use a frost staff. Wardens are the masters of ice, but we can't create minor brittle without the help of a frost staff? That doesn't seem right to me.

I'm against swarm as a stun because swarm is an extremely slow projectile, unless you're suggesting that the new swarm morph would change into something entirely new.

ESO_Nightingale

Aldoss wrote: »

I dunno, it seems weird to lock an entire status behind one specific sub-type of a weapon. If other classes want minor brittle, then make them use a frost staff. Wardens are the masters of ice, but we can't create minor brittle without the help of a frost staff? That doesn't seem right to me.

I'm against swarm as a stun because swarm is an extremely slow projectile, unless you're suggesting that the new swarm morph would change into something entirely new.

in groups no-one would run an ice staff dps at all if you give minor brittle to a class. that's the only thing holding it up at the moment.

Aldoss

ESO_Nightingale wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

I dunno, it seems weird to lock an entire status behind one specific sub-type of a weapon. If other classes want minor brittle, then make them use a frost staff. Wardens are the masters of ice, but we can't create minor brittle without the help of a frost staff? That doesn't seem right to me.

I'm against swarm as a stun because swarm is an extremely slow projectile, unless you're suggesting that the new swarm morph would change into something entirely new.

in groups no-one would run an ice staff dps at all if you give minor brittle to a class. that's the only thing holding it up at the moment.

I haven't PvE'd seriously in over a year, but when I was, pretty much every tank I knew ran an ice staff back bar with clench on their bar, which has a 100% chance to chill and applies Major Maim as well as Minor Brittle, so I'm not quite sure I follow the logic that Wardens can't have Minor Brittle in their kit because of redundancy. It's already redundant, is it not?