Competitive Players: The Most Mistreated ESO Demographic

thorwyn

The most logical thing for a player who is wanting to get into veteran content to do is to join an established end game guild. But they are being denied admission because their damage isn't in the range that update 35 is meant to correct. It does not make sense for an inexperienced player to group solely with other inexperienced players and expect to progress.

No, you don't join established end game guilds if you are a player who wants to get into vet content. That would be skipping a lot of steps.
The usual way is: You join a social guild that is offering practice raids led by experienced players, hook up with some people and eventually form a new raid group. Maybe add 2-3 experienced players to make up for the damage gap and you are good to go on your voyage, starting with craglorn veteran trials and working your way up and find out whether or not you can handle the pressure and the increasing expectations. That's the starting point.
Joining an end game group and trying to play vRG hm as someone who is unfamiliar with veteran content is not going to end well.

deleted221205-002626

thorwyn wrote: »

The most logical thing for a player who is wanting to get into veteran content to do is to join an established end game guild. But they are being denied admission because their damage isn't in the range that update 35 is meant to correct. It does not make sense for an inexperienced player to group solely with other inexperienced players and expect to progress.

No, you don't join established end game guilds if you are a player who wants to get into vet content. That would be skipping a lot of steps.
The usual way is: You join a social guild that is offering practice raids led by experienced players, hook up with some people and eventually form a new raid group. Maybe add 2-3 experienced players to make up for the damage gap and you are good to go on your voyage, starting with craglorn veteran trials and working your way up and find out whether or not you can handle the pressure and the increasing expectations. That's the starting point.
Joining an end game group and trying to play vRG hm as someone who is unfamiliar with veteran content is not going to end well.

I agree with this.. I myself have no need for any accessibility but have only done a handful of trials. I realize there's a progression and have comfort in knowing I have this option if in the future I desire to push myself in PVE. if this option wasn't there I'd feel like I've completed the game and there's nothing left and likely move on!

Harder content keeps you pushing and moving forward!

Riptide

The usual way is: You join a social guild that is offering practice raids led by experienced players, hook up with some people and eventually form a new raid group. Maybe add 2-3 experienced players to make up for the damage gap and you are good to go on your voyage, starting with craglorn veteran trials and working your way up and find out whether or not you can handle the pressure and the increasing expectations. That's the starting point.

This is the way.

It is not just how I and everyone I know did it, but the hardcore raiding guild I did join some years later took everything to keep up with the folks. If some of those seem exclusive it is because the content they are pushing presses even the best of players. It isn’t some kind if elitism thing, it is just flat out not for beginners, and the big guilds have limited roster slots to the point they have to trim anyone who hasn’t been on in 30 days.

It also is why folks get an unrealistic expectation as far as mechanics. If they are being carried through the craglorn trials rather than progression raiding it then it will seem like mechanics are some kind of new thing, when they have been around from the start. You just don’t feel them if you aren’t doing them at a slower pace.

Tsar_Gekkou

thorwyn wrote: »

The most logical thing for a player who is wanting to get into veteran content to do is to join an established end game guild. But they are being denied admission because their damage isn't in the range that update 35 is meant to correct. It does not make sense for an inexperienced player to group solely with other inexperienced players and expect to progress.

Joining an end game group and trying to play vRG hm as someone who is unfamiliar with veteran content is not going to end well.

I've seen a team that a friend was on dissolve because they brought an inexperienced healer into a dawnbringer prog. She was only there as part of a package deal(someone says they'll only join the team if someone else, who's usually not good enough for the team on their own, can join too) and the person who brought her in left the team shortly after to raid with another team. The healer was a nice girl so they didn't want to be "mean" and kick her, but they complained when she wasn't in the chat about how she's too new for a trifecta prog. Eventually, some people got fed up and quit the team, and after struggling to find subs all the time, the team called it quits.

Ragnarok0130

SilverBride wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

How do you think I and many other current end game raiders started in the first place? How do you think groups clear new content for the first time?

Many of these players have been actively raiding for a long time and experienced multiple different trials through the years. As they progressed to new content they had the benefit of the experience they gained along the way, along with gear from these trials.

Players new to raiding cannot be expected to go into current trials with no experience and no gear and succeed. I'm not saying it couldn't happen but they would be greatly disadvantaged as compared to joining an experienced and established group.

Now this is just incorrect regarding new players can't get into raiding. There are raiding guilds who teach new players based on their long term knowledge and experience how to get better and how to do each raid as its in their self interest to have a more robust number of raiders so they don't need to poach fills from other raid teams on a regular basis. That was one of the reasons Nefas created Project Vitality to introduce non-raiders to raiding and get their feet wet with Craglorn vet HMs and vMOL HM before hitting the harder later trials and it's working slowly but surely.

New players can also answer one of the Craglorn zone chats for normal mode trials to get their feet wet as they don't have any experience or DPS requirements. In fact I recommend running the normal versions first so you see generally how the trial works and that normal mode trials are quite a bit more difficult than veteran dungeons.

kindred

"casual players have THE REST OF THE ENTIRE GAME to play if they choose not to engage in hard content"

HEAR, HEAR! I cannot tell you how much I agree with this!

Nomadic_Atmoran

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Veteran content may already appeal to a lot of casual players, but because they can't meet the damage requirements that are expected to even be allowed into a group they are being denied access to this content.

They are not denied access to the content, they are free to form their own group and attempt that content therefore they have access to it.

And Overland is not inaccessible to endgamers. But there in the OP its claimed to actually be a hinderance to the .01 %. As if its even remotely comparable to casual players that will never be able to pull off trifectas and hm.

This nonsense about how endgamers are somehow the most mistreated subgroup is baloney. You literally have content designed specifically by a dedicated team to challenge you. Every big update brings a trial that has been built around some of the most top end players parses. Theyre literally working for you. Meanwhile ZOS provides no actionable way for players new to the game to actually learn or develop their skills to potentially go on to running trials meant to be difficult.

Also, we've now seen that while its going to be a little more difficult to do trials for the top .01% theyre still going to be able to do the content because the nerf effectively does not impact them as greatly as it will everyone else.

Holycannoli

There is so much that is wrong with that OP, but I want to point this out specifically:

Stamicka wrote: »

Competitive Players are Unjustifiably Demonized

This is simply not true. The demonization comes from the dismissive attitude toward everyone else. There are always exceptions so let me just say that first, but we've all seen these elitists dismiss the concerns of the average/casual players (Oakensoul anyone?), exclude them from content because they can't put out DPS they decided is necessary while that bar is constantly raised (30k was acceptable once upon a time), call for nerfs to damage as if endgame DPS is something everyone achieves, act entitled on the forums.

The demonization was earned by enough of them to make the perception common.

Elitist PvPers are worse. Those are the ones that truly earn the demonization. They're not just dismissive of the average players' concerns and quick to exclude them in game, they're openly hostile to them.

Again, there are exceptions. Not everyone that plays competitive is an elitist jerk, just like not all casuals are clueless noobs playing like it's some little kid behind the keyboard instead of a competent adult (the Leeeroys and the LA spammers).

This current PTS patch is a perfect example of the divide between players. Top end competitive players are testing it, feeling the damage nerfs but can still clear vet content. Average players aren't often even aware there is a PTS patch with damage nerfs. The few that are and are testing it are reporting DPS drops in the range of -40%. which is crippling. Between the Oakensoul nerf and overall damage nerfs they're the ones getting sledgehammered while the top end competitive players are praising the changes to Oakensoul and some are trying to shout that the damage nerfs aren't too bad and can be overcome.

Who should the devs cater to? That's the question. You're obviously not pleasing them both. I personally consider myself pretty damned average and casual. I've never stepped foot in a trial, don't know how to parse, don't do vet dungeons because I can only PUG them, I'm not in any guilds. I'm not an incompetent noob but I don't chase DPS and practice perfect weaving either. I am loving Oakensoul and the state of the game as it is right now, and feel the PTS is a major enough sledgehammer to the game that I'm considering trying other games.

I just returned to this game in late May after quitting in 2019 because of the DoT nerfs back then, and that debacle is nothing compared to this current debacle.

I'm not demonizing the elitists that have been calling for the Oakensoul nerf but I can easily see how others will, because that nerf hits them harder than it does the elitists. The perception was earned.

This whole thread shows just how out of touch the devs are lol. None of this was a problem before this PTS patch lol. It was PvPers and PvEers yelling at each other because balance changes to one messed up balance for the other. Now it's elitists vs casuals. It shouldn't be if whoever is in charge of proposing and signing off on these changes were competent enough to not propose them lol.

Browiseth

Holycannoli wrote: »

There is so much that is wrong with that OP, but I want to point this one specifically:

ignore me tbh, i misread this comment

Stamicka

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

And Overland is not inaccessible to endgamers. But there in the OP its claimed to actually be a hinderance to the .01 %. As if its even remotely comparable to casual players that will never be able to pull off trifectas and hm.

Your comment is more belittling to casuals than anything I've ever said. They will "NEVER" be able to pull it off? I have a higher opinion of them than that, I think they could pull it off with enough time invested.

jaws343

Stamicka wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

And Overland is not inaccessible to endgamers. But there in the OP its claimed to actually be a hinderance to the .01 %. As if its even remotely comparable to casual players that will never be able to pull off trifectas and hm.

Your comment is more belittling to casuals than anything I've ever said. They will "NEVER" be able to pull it off? I have a higher opinion of them than that, I think they could pull it off with enough time invested.

To lead with, I really don't care if I get HM or Trifecta trial achievements, and I don't even consider myself a casual.

But, "Time Invested" is the key, and the problem.

Often, it isn't that players are unwilling to learn or unable to learn, it is that people don't want to schedule their lives around a videogame achievement.

I had to stop participating in PROG groups, because even though I play 15-20 hours a week, I didn't want to tell my actual real life friends I couldn't do things with them because my video game acquaintances decided to set up their trial run every Friday night for the next 3 months.

morrowjen

thorwyn wrote: »

The most logical thing for a player who is wanting to get into veteran content to do is to join an established end game guild. But they are being denied admission because their damage isn't in the range that update 35 is meant to correct. It does not make sense for an inexperienced player to group solely with other inexperienced players and expect to progress.

No, you don't join established end game guilds if you are a player who wants to get into vet content. That would be skipping a lot of steps.
The usual way is: You join a social guild that is offering practice raids led by experienced players, hook up with some people and eventually form a new raid group. Maybe add 2-3 experienced players to make up for the damage gap and you are good to go on your voyage, starting with craglorn veteran trials and working your way up and find out whether or not you can handle the pressure and the increasing expectations. That's the starting point.
Joining an end game group and trying to play vRG hm as someone who is unfamiliar with veteran content is not going to end well.

That is probably the most traditional way but some do it similar to the way I did. I started with Crag PUGs and found a social guild that occasionally ran normal trials. I pugged Hel Ra so many times it was nuts and from a vet Hel Ra run I was recruited for a competitive guild. Also from PUGs I was recruited to several more guilds and joined a few of them.

Even my current active guild, I was in Craglorn in search of a PUG and recruited as a fill for a vDSR blind run they were doing at release and was invited to join the guild. I didn't immediately do so as I had full slots but a couple of runs with them later and I made the jump.

^^Craglorn is absolutely vital to endgame. It's how a ton of us met in the first place and how I met even the first social/casual guild that I joined that ran trials. For beginners, it's easy to start out with nSS, nCR, normal Hel Ra, Aetherian Archive, and Sanctum Ophidia (although in my experience that one is run far less) and once a comfort level is reached move to the vet versions of the Crag trials. If you PUG a lot you will find guilds that will want you to join. After clearing the vet Crags you can set your sites on other vet trials but the jump there is harder.

All of this is why Craglorn being a ghost town is so depressing right now.

renne

Stamicka wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

And Overland is not inaccessible to endgamers. But there in the OP its claimed to actually be a hinderance to the .01 %. As if its even remotely comparable to casual players that will never be able to pull off trifectas and hm.

Your comment is more belittling to casuals than anything I've ever said. They will "NEVER" be able to pull it off? I have a higher opinion of them than that, I think they could pull it off with enough time invested.

Lmao literally. I was a "casual". I got carried through my first vSS by a guild because I'd made friends with them and when they stopped doing normal trials but also wanted to keep me in the guild. After a while they taught me how to weave and parse and get my damage up, and what was good and not and eventually now 2 years later I have DD, SotN and EoF.

If I can do it pretty much anyone can do it.

Mr_Stach

renne wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

And Overland is not inaccessible to endgamers. But there in the OP its claimed to actually be a hinderance to the .01 %. As if its even remotely comparable to casual players that will never be able to pull off trifectas and hm.

Your comment is more belittling to casuals than anything I've ever said. They will "NEVER" be able to pull it off? I have a higher opinion of them than that, I think they could pull it off with enough time invested.

Lmao literally. I was a "casual". I got carried through my first vSS by a guild because I'd made friends with them and when they stopped doing normal trials but also wanted to keep me in the guild. After a while they taught me how to weave and parse and get my damage up, and what was good and not and eventually now 2 years later I have DD, SotN and EoF.

If I can do it pretty much anyone can do it.

I remember my very first time doing a Trial, I was tanking it. It was just a Normal Trial of course, but it got me started. My team told me where I needed to stand, the special stuff I needed to do. That was the first Taste. They carried my DumbA** Through too, but it was a lot of fun and I just kept going back.

You never know when you'll light that spark in someone else, they might be a casual today, tomorrow they might join HM progression groups, you never know.

pklemming

If the patch goes through, even similar to how it currently stands, I shudder to think what CA trifecta will be like.

BRP unchained too.

I am above casual and I think I have decent damage, but, still....

Michae

jaws343 wrote: »

Stamicka wrote: »

Nomadic_Atmoran wrote: »

And Overland is not inaccessible to endgamers. But there in the OP its claimed to actually be a hinderance to the .01 %. As if its even remotely comparable to casual players that will never be able to pull off trifectas and hm.

Your comment is more belittling to casuals than anything I've ever said. They will "NEVER" be able to pull it off? I have a higher opinion of them than that, I think they could pull it off with enough time invested.

To lead with, I really don't care if I get HM or Trifecta trial achievements, and I don't even consider myself a casual.

But, "Time Invested" is the key, and the problem.

Often, it isn't that players are unwilling to learn or unable to learn, it is that people don't want to schedule their lives around a videogame achievement.

I had to stop participating in PROG groups, because even though I play 15-20 hours a week, I didn't want to tell my actual real life friends I couldn't do things with them because my video game acquaintances decided to set up their trial run every Friday night for the next 3 months.

This is exactly what's so often missed in those discussions. I wrote about it in other threads and was always ignored. I can manage playing games almost everyday, a good 2-4 hours, sometimes even more. But playing games is the last thing on my priority list, literally if I have anything else to do, be it chores or quality time with my wife, I won't be playing. So it's really hard to schedule an appointed date for a raid, as more often than not I either have something else come up, or I can play way too late for most of people. Add on top of that the fact that I'm not in some big raiding guild, but in a small social one that consist of people similar to me, with their own busy schedules, and you'll find that regular raiding to "git gud" is a hard endeavor to pull off. So being in a small guild isn't exactly the best way to success as was suggested in this thread. And well, in big guilds you quickly fall out of the loop with a schedule like mine.

And another thing is that I simply don't find trials that stimulating. Running the same content over and over again isn't really mi kind of fun, I prefer one and done affairs, so I try to do more questing and such. And the combat in ESO feels floaty and unresponsive to me. I can understand the appeal of hard games like Dark Souls where weapon swings actually connect, and where you have to actually dodge and parry those swings, not click buttons in predefined sequence and move out of red circles on the floor. The only real appeal the vet content may have with me is some of the cosmetics, like the two personalities (beast and worm wizard). Not because I want to show off my incredible achievement of knowing how to push buttons in correct sequence to strangers on the internet, but because I enjoy Elder Scrolls universe and roleplaying during quests, and certain cosmetics aid with said roleplay.

One more thing I just don't feel like always playing ESO, variety is a spice of life, so while some days I can spend a whole evening in ESO, the other ones I just log in for a quick daily reward grab and some endeavors and then move on to some other game.

And again, I don't want this to be taken as some defense of U35. I really don't have any strong opinion on it one way or the other, as I usually don't engage with the mechanics to that extent (why? see above). All Im driving at is a certain attitude displayed in many posts here on forums, that people who have hard time engaging with vet content are just lazy, as if the game played in leisure time was supposed to be some serious business you have to train for rigorously. I'm happy to agree to disagree on this point, I just don't want to be misrepresented.

BretonMage

Holycannoli wrote: »

This whole thread shows just how out of touch the devs are lol. None of this was a problem before this PTS patch lol. It was PvPers and PvEers yelling at each other because balance changes to one messed up balance for the other. Now it's elitists vs casuals. It shouldn't be if whoever is in charge of proposing and signing off on these changes were competent enough to not propose them lol.

The most ironic thing about all this is that the power creep was a direct result of content and sets being created to engage the top players, and then ZOS nerfs EVERYONE in the name of reducing the power gap.... and did not even achieve the stated goal. So now casuals have a harder path ahead of them AND are also being blamed for the nerf. Fab.

renne wrote: »

Lmao literally. I was a "casual". I got carried through my first vSS by a guild because I'd made friends with them

Is this a standard MMO rite of passage? That you need to be carried through your first trial? Aren't there easier ways to ease into it?

MissHeartseekerx

Quoted post has been removed.

As others have said, you've completely missed... well, all of it. Go try the PTS, or watch some videos, and figure out if the people with no interest in dungeons, let alone vet, suddenly have the DPS and knowledge to clear vRG HM or even something like vSS.

More "filthy casuals" in end game content would be good, we need more people, instead of tripping up over the same dozen every time we get a Craglorn PUG. This patch does the opposite, and will gate even more people from vet content, many of them just now getting into vet content.

fred4

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

Pevey wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I would like a story mode also. One that allows completion of the dungeon but with no rewards or set gear drops. Just a chance to roam around and experience the story. I'm thinking the problem with providing this might have to do with how many instances it might create?

Then maybe the devs could simply tie transmutes to something other than normal random dungeons. Raiders use a crazy number of transmutes, and it creates a situation where the demographic normal dungeons are targeted toward (beginners and players who do not like to do combat) are mixed in with the high damage dealers who burn through content. The skill gap is natural, but it becomes glaring and contentious really only in normal dungeons. And that is only because of the rewards attached to them.

I never understood why transmutes to reconstruct gear was ever a thing, change the trait on an item sure but not reconstruct gear. If we have the sticker book and the device to reconstruct gear why curtail the player's ability to reconstruct the gear at all? It does nothing but stop people from trying new builds or gear combinations. with an artificial limit of how many transmutes we have. Frankly I'm surprised that ZoS never tried to sell transmutes in the crown store to solve the issue they intentionally created.

I'd say it's an incentive to farm everything. Every item of every set. Once cost is down to 25, you're breaking even. You don't need transmute crystals anymore. When you decide to make a new build, you deconstruct some old gear, a failed experiment or gear that's no longer meta, and you get 25 transmutes per piece back out. All you need in the long run is upgrade materials and Hakeijos.

renne

BretonMage wrote: »

renne wrote: »

Lmao literally. I was a "casual". I got carried through my first vSS by a guild because I'd made friends with them

Is this a standard MMO rite of passage? That you need to be carried through your first trial? Aren't there easier ways to ease into it?

From the rest of my comment you cut out: "when they stopped doing normal trials".

I was doing normal trials first. I was happy doing normal trials. I never thought I would do a vet trial because they seemed so hard. The guild exposed me to vet content and my friends encouraged/taught me to get better so I didn't HAVE to be carried.

I'm not sure how much "easier" it can be when I literally had people handholding me into vet content.