About Flurry changes

NBlade

I know we are all a bit concerned about dps loss and dot durations, but can we talk about Flurry for a moment?

As someone who joined ESO back in Morrowind, mainly to enjoy Quest and lore on a Nightblade, Flurry was always on my Frontbar.
I had Surprise Attack skilled up and sometimes used it in Dungeons, but being melee, it always felt better slotting Flurry with the Selfheal, especially in Veteran Content.

Flurry was on my Bars on my first vMA clear, on my first Flawless Run and pretty much any 'Achievement' i can think of.

It was love on first sight, the fast 5 strikes with the quick movements just looks so good an fun, and I still absolutely love and adore it.
Sure its not a perfect animation, but it is what it is.
Personally, and friends I ask about it, think pretty much the same of it, they absolutely love it, it never gets old.

Anyhow, with the new changes, whatever the intent, its not gonna work for me (and probably many others) anymore.

The new sound is counterproductive for (my) inner Rhythm and watching my Shadowplays from pts, running Falkreath Hold, it looks so silly, and being PTS, I didn't even changed my Mainhand Axe into a sword (like on live, coming from EU). Even with an Axe, it looks so unsatisfying and with that almost comical, out of sync soundFX, its actually painful to watch.

The lost tick isn't too bad, and I think no one would really care about the actual dmg ticks don't match the old animation / sound. Especially with the shown alternative.

Same goes for the changed duration from 0.6 to 0.8 seconds. Weaving isn't as clean as it used to be, but that might be the higher ping on pts (55 on live / 188 on pts). Through I could live with that.

Regardless, please do not change 7 year old skills in such a manner, beyond recognition.

Most Templars probably feel the same about Jabs / Strikes.

A skill that we have grown so much affection on over the Years playing this game, it truly hurts me to see the devs even attempt to change such distinguished skills.

Thanks for hearing me out

Styxius

the animation mostly lines up in frame data, but the sound is in big need of change.

stevenyaub16_ESO

I prefer the new one. The new animation is bad but the old one was worse. With these changes I find it much smoother to weave with and don't actually mind using it (hated using it when I had to during certain content updates).

Bring it.

Skjaldbjorn

I think they can fix the sound, but I actually strongly prefer the new animation and weave.

Soarora

I honestly like both a lot, though the new animation doesn’t fit the button art. The fast paced jabs were really fun, but weird with blunt weapons. The new one is fun to weave with but its looseness makes it only really fit personality-wise with characters known for being sassy or having a bit of flair.

YandereGirlfriend

I haven't used Flurry in a long time but I also liked the five strikes and the weird little animation.

It looked like a little kid trying to punch his older brother on a 90's sitcom or something.

Mr_Stach

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I haven't used Flurry in a long time but I also liked the five strikes and the weird little animation.

It looked like a little kid trying to punch his older brother on a 90's sitcom or something.

NBlade

Soarora wrote: »

I honestly like both a lot, though the new animation doesn’t fit the button art. The fast paced jabs were really fun, but weird with blunt weapons. The new one is fun to weave with but its looseness makes it only really fit personality-wise with characters known for being sassy or having a bit of flair.

Yes, i get that, my Nord alt uses DSA DW weapons with Twin Slashes as spammable for this very reason with two Axes.

merpins

I also liked the old animation a bit. It was a bit crunchy, and probably needed a visual animation update with a push to .8 casting time, since the animation again was crunchy, but I did like the old one. But I do prefer the new one, since the animation is not crunchy.

What I hate about the new one is the principle of ZoS reusing content in-game for "new" animations, when it comes to player skills. They can feel free to reuse animations when making NPCs and monsters. But when it comes to player skills, if they are going to make a new skill, I FIRMLY believe they should solely make it a visual upgrade with NEW animations. Jabs for example, I hate the new animation. It feels crunchier than before, but more than that, it uses the Nighthollow staff motif as the model for the spear. That is unacceptable.
Even if I think the "new" animation for Flurry and its morphs feels better to use (especially when using an axe or a mace, since you wouldn't be stabbing with those), I can't stand by the fact that ZoS literally just put two light attack animations together to make this "new" animation. I don't mind if they use it as a placeholder while they make a brand new animation. But I am not happy that they are trying to call this a new animation, when it very much is not. These are the things we use every day. We deserve more than a half-assed skill rework that changes the animation from something unique, to something not.

Mr_Stach

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I also liked the old animation a bit. It was a bit crunchy, and probably needed a visual animation update with a push to .8 casting time, since the animation again was crunchy, but I did like the old one. But I do prefer the new one, since the animation is not crunchy.

What I hate about the new one is the principle of ZoS reusing content in-game for "new" animations, when it comes to player skills. They can feel free to reuse animations when making NPCs and monsters. But when it comes to player skills, if they are going to make a new skill, I FIRMLY believe they should solely make it a visual upgrade with NEW animations. Jabs for example, I hate the new animation. It feels crunchier than before, but more than that, it uses the Nighthollow staff motif as the model for the spear. That is unacceptable.
Even if I think the "new" animation for Flurry and its morphs feels better to use (especially when using an axe or a mace, since you wouldn't be stabbing with those), I can't stand by the fact that ZoS literally just put two light attack animations together to make this "new" animation. I don't mind if they use it as a placeholder while they make a brand new animation. But I am not happy that they are trying to call this a new animation, when it very much is not. These are the things we use every day. We deserve more than a half-assed skill rework that changes the animation from something unique, to something not.

Kinda worries me if they ever give Warden a new Spammable. Just going to throw a sideways Bird at someone or maybe a squirrel. Make it as janky as possible.

starkerealm

I wasn't a fan of the old one, but I find the new one so much worse. Ironically, the older version with the jabbing strikes looked more like something a character would actually do (except with axes.) If having the new one restricted to if you were wielding aces and maces was an option, with a version of the old one for swords and daggers, that would be cool, but the new one is a step down.

merpins

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I also liked the old animation a bit. It was a bit crunchy, and probably needed a visual animation update with a push to .8 casting time, since the animation again was crunchy, but I did like the old one. But I do prefer the new one, since the animation is not crunchy.

What I hate about the new one is the principle of ZoS reusing content in-game for "new" animations, when it comes to player skills. They can feel free to reuse animations when making NPCs and monsters. But when it comes to player skills, if they are going to make a new skill, I FIRMLY believe they should solely make it a visual upgrade with NEW animations. Jabs for example, I hate the new animation. It feels crunchier than before, but more than that, it uses the Nighthollow staff motif as the model for the spear. That is unacceptable.
Even if I think the "new" animation for Flurry and its morphs feels better to use (especially when using an axe or a mace, since you wouldn't be stabbing with those), I can't stand by the fact that ZoS literally just put two light attack animations together to make this "new" animation. I don't mind if they use it as a placeholder while they make a brand new animation. But I am not happy that they are trying to call this a new animation, when it very much is not. These are the things we use every day. We deserve more than a half-assed skill rework that changes the animation from something unique, to something not.

Kinda worries me if they ever give Warden a new Spammable. Just going to throw a sideways Bird at someone or maybe a squirrel. Make it as janky as possible.

Ikr? did you know, they reused the animation for the Cliffracer spammable a couple months after Warden's release. The Murderous Strike emote, which lets you throw a crow at a player, is the exact same animation as Warden's cliffracer. ZoS has a long track record of reusing assets, including animations from skills. This is just the first time they did it for skills players use, what with Jabs and Flurry.

colossalvoids

Animation alone will make me never use the skill again no matter if it becomes bis or something, it's just a spit in a face situation personally. Loved the skill since I've joined the game and it was also my first flawless accompany on a stamblade etc, animation was great and fluid, unlike new catfight one which is just pain to the eyes.

Mr_Stach

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

I also liked the old animation a bit. It was a bit crunchy, and probably needed a visual animation update with a push to .8 casting time, since the animation again was crunchy, but I did like the old one. But I do prefer the new one, since the animation is not crunchy.

What I hate about the new one is the principle of ZoS reusing content in-game for "new" animations, when it comes to player skills. They can feel free to reuse animations when making NPCs and monsters. But when it comes to player skills, if they are going to make a new skill, I FIRMLY believe they should solely make it a visual upgrade with NEW animations. Jabs for example, I hate the new animation. It feels crunchier than before, but more than that, it uses the Nighthollow staff motif as the model for the spear. That is unacceptable.
Even if I think the "new" animation for Flurry and its morphs feels better to use (especially when using an axe or a mace, since you wouldn't be stabbing with those), I can't stand by the fact that ZoS literally just put two light attack animations together to make this "new" animation. I don't mind if they use it as a placeholder while they make a brand new animation. But I am not happy that they are trying to call this a new animation, when it very much is not. These are the things we use every day. We deserve more than a half-assed skill rework that changes the animation from something unique, to something not.

Kinda worries me if they ever give Warden a new Spammable. Just going to throw a sideways Bird at someone or maybe a squirrel. Make it as janky as possible.

Ikr? did you know, they reused the animation for the Cliffracer spammable a couple months after Warden's release. The Murderous Strike emote, which lets you throw a crow at a player, is the exact same animation as Warden's cliffracer. ZoS has a long track record of reusing assets, including animations from skills. This is just the first time they did it for skills players use, what with Jabs and Flurry.

But...... Zos already made an alternate Warden Spammable. It's in the game. They just need to give it to us.

Arcanasx

Reusing old animations aside, I do think the "new" animation is more sensible (especially with axes and maces) and it feels better to weave with, and personally I think hunching over and rapidly thrusting as you strafed around your target looked a lot more silly imo.

I also think a large part of why people don't like the new animation is because they think its "two light attacks", and therefore it looks and sounds off, but if you pay attention to the animation it is actually four separate hits. Basically its two hits, one from each weapon, from right to left, then another two hits from left to right.

However, the animation could use some refinement though to make that more clear.

merpins

Arcanasx wrote: »

Reusing old animations aside, I do think the "new" animation is more sensible (especially with axes and maces) and it feels better to weave with, and personally I think hunching over and rapidly thrusting as you strafed around your target looked a lot more silly imo.

I also think a large part of why people don't like the new animation is because they think its "two light attacks", and therefore it looks and sounds off, but if you pay attention to the animation it is actually four separate hits. Basically its two hits, one from each weapon, from right to left, then another two hits from left to right.

However, the animation could use some refinement though to make that more clear.

That's just the heavy attack animation, then, minus the weapon twirling and wind-up. Same thing.

YandereGirlfriend

Arcanasx wrote: »

Reusing old animations aside, I do think the "new" animation is more sensible (especially with axes and maces) and it feels better to weave with, and personally I think hunching over and rapidly thrusting as you strafed around your target looked a lot more silly imo.

I also think a large part of why people don't like the new animation is because they think its "two light attacks", and therefore it looks and sounds off, but if you pay attention to the animation it is actually four separate hits. Basically its two hits, one from each weapon, from right to left, then another two hits from left to right.

However, the animation could use some refinement though to make that more clear.

Important consideration - you are losing a chance at a status effect with the new animation.

Single-target Direct Damage is a big 10% chance so you are going to forfeit a bunch of additional Hemorrhaging instances as well over the course of a long fight.

Kusto

OP, not sure why you care about flurry now that they buffed surprise attack. Theres a huge difference between them. You would gimp yourself using flurry.
Surprise attack doesn't 100% crit currently on pts tho. Hopefully they'll fix it next time.

RandomKodiak

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Kinda worries me if they ever give Warden a new Spammable. Just going to throw a sideways Bird at someone or maybe a squirrel. Make it as janky as possible.

If they let my Warden run around throwing squirrels at people I would never play another class!

NBlade

Kusto wrote: »

OP, not sure why you care about flurry now that they buffed surprise attack. Theres a huge difference between them. You would gimp yourself using flurry.
Surprise attack doesn't 100% crit currently on pts tho. Hopefully they'll fix it next time.

SA crit: it does, Trail Dummy has a very funky hitbox.

Why i still care, if your blonde wife of 10 years comes home with red hair, even through everybody say it looks better, you probably would care too.

As stated, Flurry for me, never gets old. I gimp myself for 5 year, because I like it so much, still outperform rnd vPledges.
For any real serious Content I do play the MagBlade Meta, or Stam if possible.

Kusto

NBlade wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

OP, not sure why you care about flurry now that they buffed surprise attack. Theres a huge difference between them. You would gimp yourself using flurry.
Surprise attack doesn't 100% crit currently on pts tho. Hopefully they'll fix it next time.

SA crit: it does, Trail Dummy has a very funky hitbox.

Why i still care, if your blonde wife of 10 years comes home with red hair, even through everybody say it looks better, you probably would care too.

As stated, Flurry for me, never gets old. I gimp myself for 5 year, because I like it so much, still outperform rnd vPledges.
For any real serious Content I do play the MagBlade Meta, or Stam if possible.

Tried SA on 3 mil also. Tried from behind and sides. It's not 100% criting.

xaraan

The animation is horrible, it just looks like a couple light attacks being spammed. I mean, I just laughed when I saw thinking it was a joke at first it's that bad.

Jabs isn't much better, but at least not as bad.

Arcanasx

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Reusing old animations aside, I do think the "new" animation is more sensible (especially with axes and maces) and it feels better to weave with, and personally I think hunching over and rapidly thrusting as you strafed around your target looked a lot more silly imo.

I also think a large part of why people don't like the new animation is because they think its "two light attacks", and therefore it looks and sounds off, but if you pay attention to the animation it is actually four separate hits. Basically its two hits, one from each weapon, from right to left, then another two hits from left to right.

However, the animation could use some refinement though to make that more clear.

That's just the heavy attack animation, then, minus the weapon twirling and wind-up. Same thing.

Not really. The attacks from flurry are noticeably more consecutive as a series of attacks while the dual wield heavy attacks have each weapon landing nearly at the same time. In a way, the new flurry is kind of a hybrid between the dual wield light attack and the heavy attack animations.

You can more easily tell if you go through combat metrics and take a look at the time between when the main and off hand heavy attacks land vs the time it takes in between the first, second, third and fourth hits from flurry.

Maybe you mean just starting a dual wielding swing from one side to the the other makes them look too much the same anyways, but personally I think the animation as I see it still differentiates them enough not the be the "same" thing.

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Arcanasx wrote: »

Reusing old animations aside, I do think the "new" animation is more sensible (especially with axes and maces) and it feels better to weave with, and personally I think hunching over and rapidly thrusting as you strafed around your target looked a lot more silly imo.

I also think a large part of why people don't like the new animation is because they think its "two light attacks", and therefore it looks and sounds off, but if you pay attention to the animation it is actually four separate hits. Basically its two hits, one from each weapon, from right to left, then another two hits from left to right.

However, the animation could use some refinement though to make that more clear.

Important consideration - you are losing a chance at a status effect with the new animation.

Single-target Direct Damage is a big 10% chance so you are going to forfeit a bunch of additional Hemorrhaging instances as well over the course of a long fight.

Something else to consider; the damage from the new flurry is potentially more front loaded compared to the older one. One of the issues with the old flurry meant you could land the first four weaker hits and then have the final more damaging hit blocked, dodged or interrupted. The increased duration of the channel somewhat counters this as well, but that could be fixed by increasing the damage relative to how long the new animation lasts, which personally I think they should.

As for losing the fifth hit; it is what it is. Going from five to four isn't a big deal imo and it still has its niche for being able to potentially proc multiple status effects in a single channeled attack. I'm sure it makes it easier to balance the skill as well.

virtus753

It's really hard for me to judge the new Flurry animation fairly when the sound and animation desync is so horrific.

The character slashes (a bit drunkenly, because the feet are moving in a way that suggests being off-balance) once with the right arm and once with the left, but somehow the damage and sound hit twice per slash? How does one slash generate two squishy-sounding hits?

My eyes and ears are trying to convince my brain that two very different things are happening (two slashes versus four stabs), and it just isn't working for me.

I don't generally watch animations when I parse or do serious content, but this is going to be very distracting while I'm trying to concentrate on my skill bars (sorry, ZOS, I'm watching those bars more closely than ever because of the changes to skill timers).

NBlade

Kusto wrote: »

NBlade wrote: »

Kusto wrote: »

OP, not sure why you care about flurry now that they buffed surprise attack. Theres a huge difference between them. You would gimp yourself using flurry.
Surprise attack doesn't 100% crit currently on pts tho. Hopefully they'll fix it next time.

SA crit: it does, Trail Dummy has a very funky hitbox.

Why i still care, if your blonde wife of 10 years comes home with red hair, even through everybody say it looks better, you probably would care too.

As stated, Flurry for me, never gets old. I gimp myself for 5 year, because I like it so much, still outperform rnd vPledges.
For any real serious Content I do play the MagBlade Meta, or Stam if possible.

Tried SA on 3 mil also. Tried from behind and sides. It's not 100% criting.

Just checked one of the parses i had saved, got 89/90 crits / hits with SA, (65% base crit chance, before Tzo. stacks).
Not sure how it looks with less crit focused gear, but it gets boosted quite a lot.

That being said, i rather have the current version, than getting the pts version with all the other changes along with it..

Arcanasx

virtus753 wrote: »

It's really hard for me to judge the new Flurry animation fairly when the sound and animation desync is so horrific.

The character slashes (a bit drunkenly, because the feet are moving in a way that suggests being off-balance) once with the right arm and once with the left, but somehow the damage and sound hit twice per slash? How does one slash generate two squishy-sounding hits?

My eyes and ears are trying to convince my brain that two very different things are happening (two slashes versus four stabs), and it just isn't working for me.

I don't generally watch animations when I parse or do serious content, but this is going to be very distracting while I'm trying to concentrate on my skill bars (sorry, ZOS, I'm watching those bars more closely than ever because of the changes to skill timers).

It is four separate hits though. First hit is the left weapon hitting quickly from right to left, then the right weapon hits from right to left, and then again from left to right, followed by the left weapon hitting from left to right.

Edit: Maybe they need to slightly delay and telegraph the first hit and then squeeze in the following three hits faster, then adjust the audio of the following hits accordingly. I think people not noticing that first hit might be what's confusing people here.

NBlade

Arcanasx wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

It's really hard for me to judge the new Flurry animation fairly when the sound and animation desync is so horrific.

The character slashes (a bit drunkenly, because the feet are moving in a way that suggests being off-balance) once with the right arm and once with the left, but somehow the damage and sound hit twice per slash? How does one slash generate two squishy-sounding hits?

My eyes and ears are trying to convince my brain that two very different things are happening (two slashes versus four stabs), and it just isn't working for me.

I don't generally watch animations when I parse or do serious content, but this is going to be very distracting while I'm trying to concentrate on my skill bars (sorry, ZOS, I'm watching those bars more closely than ever because of the changes to skill timers).

It is four separate hits though. First hit is the left weapon hitting quickly from right to left, then the right weapon hits from right to left, and then again from left to right, followed by the left weapon hitting from left to right.

Edit: Maybe they need to slightly delay and telegraph the first hit and then squeeze in the following three hits faster, then adjust the audio of the following hits accordingly. I think people not noticing that first hit might be what's confusing people here.

What irritates me the most, is the inconsistency of the sound delivery / rhythm.
Makes me dizzy, especially with so much spamming it.
I played for quite a while yesterday and could not get used to it, despite being pretty good at stuff like that.
I had the right mindset to genuinely try and make it work for me.
Actually had the opposite effect , therefore this poll / post.

virtus753

Arcanasx wrote: »

virtus753 wrote: »

It's really hard for me to judge the new Flurry animation fairly when the sound and animation desync is so horrific.

The character slashes (a bit drunkenly, because the feet are moving in a way that suggests being off-balance) once with the right arm and once with the left, but somehow the damage and sound hit twice per slash? How does one slash generate two squishy-sounding hits?

My eyes and ears are trying to convince my brain that two very different things are happening (two slashes versus four stabs), and it just isn't working for me.

I don't generally watch animations when I parse or do serious content, but this is going to be very distracting while I'm trying to concentrate on my skill bars (sorry, ZOS, I'm watching those bars more closely than ever because of the changes to skill timers).

It is four separate hits though. First hit is the left weapon hitting quickly from right to left, then the right weapon hits from right to left, and then again from left to right, followed by the left weapon hitting from left to right.

Edit: Maybe they need to slightly delay and telegraph the first hit and then squeeze in the following three hits faster, then adjust the audio of the following hits accordingly. I think people not noticing that first hit might be what's confusing people here.

I see. Then the nuances seem to be getting lost on me in the exaggerated listing windmill impression.

TekNut71

Mr_Stach wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

I haven't used Flurry in a long time but I also liked the five strikes and the weird little animation.

It looked like a little kid trying to punch his older brother on a 90's sitcom or something.

I could not have said it better. This perfectly discribes the horror that has become Flurry.

Aardappelboom

While I respect everyone's opinion and I understand people not liking the old animation, I really can't understand people really liking the new animation.

There's so much they could have done with this in 0.8 seconds, the dev team brought out so many awesome animations lately, there's some real talent there but this just seems "slapped on" even if the idea is good, the positioning, the execution, it's all pretty much off.

They could have added a horizontal slash or a backhand slash, anything to spice it up, honestly, aside from this patch there's a lot of love in this game in terms of graphics and animations, I do not feel that for this skill.

The jabs animation is better at least, not very inspired maybe but definitely better.

I'm sad to see they have taken this route with this.

LukosCreyden

The new animation is, unfortunately, objectively very bad [snip]
We know that the devs are capable of far better than this. I am hoping they scrap that animation [snip] and create a new one that feels better to weave and looks better.

The current one on pts looks like a placeholder.

[edited for bashing]