"Heavy Attack build lovers... we want better for you"

JustAGoodPlayer

If HA even will be killed we just become as example = chain do death chain spammers ? ))) But we will name ourselves HA players even so, so nothing really change

Or - one snipe mans ))) If snipe will be the spammable.

stargleen

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think HA build generally cause some issues.

How many people are actually running those types of HA builds in PvP at the moment?

My impression was a few people did it for a week or so than quit and I'm generally seeing the same clips posted.

If it needs addressed at all, it seems like it'd be cleaner to just reduce the damage of Heavy Attacks via Battle Spirit.

Every fight have 1 guy using this stupid build.

Mr_Stach

Oh to be clear I don't think that HA builds shouldn't be viable, I just don't think you should be able to 1-shot people in PvP with any silly setups. HA builds are just one of many issues.

I just have 0 confidence that Zos can give you what you want without giving those people that will abuse what they want as well.

kindred

I just got my heavy attack build done a few weeks ago. I took weeks to farm it. I spend tons of transmute crystals. I totally golded it out. Do you know how much dreugh wax costs?! And now, all that time and resources will have been for nothing. Same when Oakensoul came out. I put together two oakensoul builds. Now will be trash. Complete waste of my time.

JustAGoodPlayer

stargleen wrote: »

chessalavakia_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Stach wrote: »

I think HA build generally cause some issues.

How many people are actually running those types of HA builds in PvP at the moment?

My impression was a few people did it for a week or so than quit and I'm generally seeing the same clips posted.

If it needs addressed at all, it seems like it'd be cleaner to just reduce the damage of Heavy Attacks via Battle Spirit.

Every fight have 1 guy using this stupid build.

So ... we need to walk as a big 12 people coordinated group ? Of HA only ?

I think it is not polit - if even solo HA players are so hated )))

About one-shot HA builds - if you test HA even from invis is vissible in duels. The same for LA, so you can hear/see and block it.

But because of lags and bad perfomance it do not work correct ! And yes, you do not see attack = one shot.

Now even mythick was added against it, but more correct is to make better game perfomance. The same for dark convergence - if game normally works it is not a big problem.

If skills and block do not press and work because of lags - yes, it is already a big problem.
Each change players just lose time/resources and get nerfs.

It is not how MMO works ! If players do not like the game so much, any of such changes already make the game close because it lose to much players. So current 3 years game balancing looks more like game anihilation !

SpiralStorm4

colossalvoids wrote: »

Can see why class reps were disbanded, better for them also not being associated with... this.

Ohh...Kay? What in blue blazes are class reps? And why were they disbanded?

SpiralStorm4

HackTheMinotaur wrote: »

We've been testing. It's NOT better! This comment from a new player who can barely achieve 30K DPS on LIVE:

This update is painful and really hurts low to mid-tier players. I use your Infinity One-Bar Sorc build. I have severe arthritis and it really helped me be able to get through more content since I can't weave. I ran tests against both the trial dummy and the 6 mil dummy. On Live, with no weaving, I had over 33k DPS on the Trial and over 28k DPS on the 6mil. On PTS, I managed to just squeak out 27k DPS on the trial and only got 14k DPS on the 6 mil. If this goes through as is, it may very well end the playability of ESO for me.

While longer duration effects will be helpful for some, nerfs to DOT damage, heavy attack damage, passive damage and other skills will drop the floor into the basement for players using simple, accessible builds like this. On more standard content, not a trial dummy, this player lost half their DPS! Heavy attack builds in PVE content should be buffed, not nerfed.

If PVP burst is a concern, it should be mitigated through Battle Spirit, and set and skill bonuses that only work against PVE enemies. We've seen that you can do this with recent changes to Noble Duelist, Sergeant's Mail and other sets.

Undaunted Infiltrator and Unweaver: These sets now increase your damage done with Light and Heavy Attacks against monsters by 1645, rather than increasing their Weapon and Spell Damage scaling.

Do this STILL, but ALSO keep a high scale factor or baseline for Heavy Attacks to begin with. Good scaling on a wet noodle is still a wet noodle.

Fully charged melee Heavy Attacks deal 2500 base damage multiplied by their cast time and cooldown

Double or Triple this and it might be OK. This would give a high enough baseline where things like Weapon's Expert, Heavy Attack Sets and Empower would actually start to be noticeable. Right now, these effects do almost nothing and a build totally invested in Heavy Attacks can barely crack 40K DPS on a Trial Dummy.

and 10% less for ranged.

If I use a Lightning Staff but am in Melee Range do I still lose 10%? Hopefully this is looking at range to target and not just a blanket reduction based on weapon type.

Hello? Bump! @HackTheMinotaur are you still here?

Redguards_Revenge

kindred wrote: »

I just got my heavy attack build done a few weeks ago. I took weeks to farm it. I spend tons of transmute crystals. I totally golded it out. Do you know how much dreugh wax costs?! And now, all that time and resources will have been for nothing. Same when Oakensoul came out. I put together two oakensoul builds. Now will be trash. Complete waste of my time.

That sir is how they keep the eso economy moving.

Redguards_Revenge

Mr_Stach wrote: »

Oh to be clear I don't think that HA builds shouldn't be viable, I just don't think you should be able to 1-shot people in PvP with any silly setups. HA builds are just one of many issues.

I just have 0 confidence that Zos can give you what you want without giving those people that will abuse what they want as well.

You sir are right. They purposefully make these sets to feed into people's want to dominate absolutely over others.

Let's look at mara's balm.

When living dark had no cooldown in PTS about 2 years ago. I whisleblew fast that the skill was broken. So they added the cooldown. Lesson learned?

Some time later, maybe earlier this year? They remove the cooldown from Living Dark.

Then they had the oblivion set. The heal had no cooldown in PTS and people whistleblew that it would be OP. So they added a cooldown. That cooldown is still there thank goodness. Lessoned Learned?

Now we have Mara's Balm...Which is living dark on steroids. It was like the last 7+ years of ESO did not occur. So two things can cause this to happen. A brand new dev team as they keep rotating the doors probably every 2 years or somebody at the top purposefully making these decisions to try to get easy money fast as if the game is going to disappear in 2-3 years.

Any sane developer who knows how to make software could see mara's balm exploitation from a long shot. However, they built it to spec. AS IT IS THEIR JOB TO. Someone is purposefully saying "don't inject your logic into making these sets fair"

Wow, actually maybe they fired the software dev crew all together and have a person or persons (no software developers) sitting in front of the GUI system that can easily add, remove, update, and create new sets, skills, etc. They cannot see how the set is detrimental to the game because they are not looking at the system as a whole. Since these people are rotational, they probably don't even know how the game functions.

They probably got the job because they worked at "other MMO" for X amount of years and now it's glaring how much that "other MMO" influence is injecting itself into ESO. It started just before the first mythic.

It's funny because I gave a lot of leeway to a certain person. Then I saw him say "knee jerk reaction". At no point should that have ever been uttered. Especially if you are going to change the game. I said nothing because I knew if U35 was bad, it would be the best karma ever.

The truth is the battle mechanics had to change because they relied so heavily on broken sets to sell their content. I knew they would release a broken set. How broken? I did not know. When I saw oakensoul I laughed. Why was Oakensoul nerfed? What can they sell you after oakensoul? Think about it. They NEED to lower your damage to sell you more in the future.

There were two pillars of game mechanics that held ESO UP.

Smart Healing and ..I am having a brain fart on the second one right now...Smart healing can't be touched. If it were all the problems would be solved by forcing people to aim their heals. However, it would put a burden on console players.

Ohh yeah the second pillar was having the 5 skill slots available.

ZoS has put too much burden on the 5 skill slot pillar and broke it. First it started with proctopalypse... Think valknskoria.

They knew console players would have to adhere to 5 slots because they don't have ample keys like a PC player. So what did they do? They introduced procs. Procs are a way to get around the 5 slots and add a 6th skill to the player and add to their DPS.

The plan was so successful at selling chapters and DLCs it ballooned too far and now ZoS is at a crossroad. Think about it, we literally had Oakensoul which gave maybe 6-8 more skill to a player. The 5 slots missing did not really matter much. If they didn't nerf it what would be after it? Capes? Wings?

Then we have mara's balm which is Templar purge + living dark + extra heals. Have you noticed they keep doing that? Putting class skills into sets?



Did you also notice how they made 50% movement speed reduction to each of templar jabs upon the release of mara's balm?
Not only are you getting nerfed by ZoS nerfs, Major Evasion, but now they HEAL everytime you jab. That is sabatauge and it gave us a glympse of the possible new paradigm they are trying to cook up.

Make it seem like you are giving your players a buff but introduce sets that go off on said buffs. It is the only thing I can think of as to why they weren't strict on mara's balm. Testing the waters I guess.


I forgot to say this, How did ZoS break the 5 skill pillar beyond reinforcement? Why do they need to create a new pillar?

What is the difference between an skill and a proc? Did you guess it?

SKILLS COST RESOURCES!!!

MOST PROCS COST NOTHING!!!!

THIS IS WHY ESO IS BROKEN AND WILL STAY BROKEN!!!

Giving a person 3-5 skills at no cost to them going off all together while the person is using their skills that cost resources to mitigate the incoming damage? This game mechanics were broken years ago.

My recommendation is to redo the whole thing. Make all procs cost resources.

Let's look at mara's balm....every heal proc costing a resource think about it. Would they still be alive?

The question is what resource? Should it be ulti? Should it be their highest stat? Do this and the game balances itself out quickly. You can have any broken set in the game. So long as the resource amount is equivalent to the beat down it gives, nobody will ever ask if the game is balanced.

Oh yes, DPS would drop like a rock for some. ZoS would then need to come in and balance all dungeons accordingly. Not just lowering the health 10%.

Zezin

you can do 85k+ damage on HA this patch while prety much just holding down HA button [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Lalothen

Zezin wrote: »

you can do 85k+ damage on HA this patch while prety much just holding down HA button [snip]

On a one-bar Oakensoul Sorc, that's pretty much it - and the only reason it works for Sorc is because Daedric Prey got the pet damage portion buffed by 125%.



Tormentor's putting out nearly 6k DPS over the entire parse, is only activated to 50%, and now has a 20s activation period.
Familiar is putting out 6.5k combined DPS over the entire parse and is only activated once per 20s.
Atro is being dropped a few seconds after the last one ends, and is buffed by Prey too.
Prey fits easily into a HA rotation every 3rd cast and does appreciable damage by itself.

This also represents an optimum scenario where Duelist & Sergeant buffs are up 100% of the time, no HAs are broken for the sake of blocking, movement, target switching, etc - which has a more marked impact on HA build output in content than it does LA builds.

OakenSorc HA does work well in content (vSS & vCR+1):

https://www.esologs.com/reports/C13fVndBkJmT8xa2/

Note that when it came to Relequen in the above log, the two-bar build performed worse than the one-bar - and a fairly significant part of this is Oakensoul vs. no Oakensoul.

This isn't something I've been able to simply replicate on a non-pet sorc build, let alone any other class that I've played as HA DPS (Necro, Warden, DK). Two-bar HA builds can break 80k on certain classes; my MagDK touches on it with Duelist/Rele/Kilt and a dynamic semi-HA, semi-LA rotation. Putting that into perspective though, LA builds are still breakinig 120k on the dummy whilst HA themed builds are largely peaking lower than pre-U35 - regardless of the fact that the dummy has received significant buffs.

[snip]
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

Zezin

Lalothen wrote: »

Zezin wrote: »

you can do 85k+ damage on HA this patch while prety much just holding down HA button [snip]

On a one-bar Oakensoul Sorc, that's pretty much it - and the only reason it works for Sorc is because Daedric Prey got the pet damage portion buffed by 125%.



Tormentor's putting out nearly 6k DPS over the entire parse, is only activated to 50%, and now has a 20s activation period.
Familiar is putting out 6.5k combined DPS over the entire parse and is only activated once per 20s.
Atro is being dropped a few seconds after the last one ends, and is buffed by Prey too.
Prey fits easily into a HA rotation every 3rd cast and does appreciable damage by itself.

This also represents an optimum scenario where Duelist & Sergeant buffs are up 100% of the time, no HAs are broken for the sake of blocking, movement, target switching, etc - which has a more marked impact on HA build output in content than it does LA builds.

OakenSorc HA does work well in content (vSS & vCR+1):

https://www.esologs.com/reports/C13fVndBkJmT8xa2/

Note that when it came to Relequen in the above log, the two-bar build performed worse than the one-bar - and a fairly significant part of this is Oakensoul vs. no Oakensoul.

This isn't something I've been able to simply replicate on a non-pet sorc build, let alone any other class that I've played as HA DPS (Necro, Warden, DK). Two-bar HA builds can break 80k on certain classes; my MagDK touches on it with Duelist/Rele/Kilt and a dynamic semi-HA, semi-LA rotation. Putting that into perspective though, LA builds are still breakinig 120k on the dummy whilst HA themed builds are largely peaking lower than pre-U35 - regardless of the fact that the dummy has received significant buffs.

[snip]
[edited for flaming & to remove quote]

1. The reason why you can see 120k+ parses is mostly due to crit farming, take this parse by cpcharles for example:

his crit rating on cmx was around 68% and yet his most damaging skills hit up to 88% and a whopping 94% in the case of lethal arrow, this is very much something you usually only see on the dummy with raid numbers being closer to your actual crit chance, this is important to take into consideration as it is something that is harder to do the longer the fight goes and as such is much harder to replicate while parsing on an HA build as it does less damage, not however this is not exclusive to HA builds but all builds.

2. All builds will do less damage if you shift them away from the meta setups this is 100% normal, I don't expect to do as much damage running something like tozogvin or siroria on the dummy and yet these can definitely be better situationally over meta sets on some encounters, truth be told you only use the meta parse setup where it is possible to do so, notable examples of where you don't want to use them is vCR and vAS but there are many more.

3. Lastly I never said all builds could achieve the same numbers, that is true however for all kinds of builds in the game not just HA builds and while it's not the same as sorc(I've gotten 89k+ on sorc)here's a parse on NB not as high but still very much competitive:

Lalothen

Zezin wrote: »

2. All builds will do less damage if you shift them away from the meta setups this is 100% normal, I don't expect to do as much damage running something like tozogvin or siroria on the dummy and yet these can definitely be better situationally over meta sets on some encounters, truth be told you only use the meta parse setup where it is possible to do so, notable examples of where you don't want to use them is vCR and vAS but there are many more.

Granted but here's where the issue lies from my perspective: "less damage" when switching between top end LA builds, converts to "significantly less damage" when switching over from those builds to the best available HA builds. The overall gap is, in my opinion, too large as things stand. Peak output under optimum conditions could do with being 5-10k higher, though there's more to that than simply loading more damage output into HAs.

3. Lastly I never said all builds could achieve the same numbers, that is true however for all kinds of builds in the game not just HA builds and while it's not the same as sorc(I've gotten 89k+ on sorc)here's a parse on NB not as high but still very much competitive:

Again granted, but the discrepency between classes running HA builds is large, regardless of whether 78k on an HA NB is technically viable. If you want to get "the most" out of an HA build, you're currently essentially pigeonholed into running a 2-pet sorc with Serg, Duelist (switching to Unweaver or Infiltrator in scenarios where Duelist doesn't proc) & Oakensoul, because it's objectively better than all else by a relatively significant margin. Sure, you can make the case that it's the same when it comes to top LA builds, but I'd suggest it matters more with HA builds because they're already further behind in general.

This goes back to what I said before: HA builds - at the top end - aren't really in a better place than they were pre-U35. At the lower end of the spectrum they're great, which is a solid win for ZoS structuring them as an accessibility option - but the top end still needs some work, as does build diversity (and yes, the same can be said for LA builds too).

Thanks for the NB parse by the way; I've been tempted to switch my NB to an HA build so I can use it for more content without worrying about my hands, and that gives solid insight into skill complement.