Did anyone ask for these changes?

MidniteOwl1913

jaws343 wrote: »

ZOS has been trying to nerf top end DPS for like 3 years now. Every attempt has drastically failed. It's no surprise that they are trying again. And, it seems, successfully so.

SO they decided to do an everybody nerf? It does appear that that is the case. Doesn't make much sense.

MidniteOwl1913

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This has nothing to do with Overland, IMO. In the ESO Live, they flat out stated they wanted to close the gap so that more players get to see vet content. That's the goal. To get people hitting vet walls but who want to engage in vet content into that content, so that the game has a more logical and natural progression. This would result in more endgame players.

Might help if they left oakensoul alone.

Elsonso

prof_doom wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

However, buried in here, and not talked about widely, are some potentially significant performance changes.

Honestly, if they were to just straight up admit it's a performance thing, people might actually be willing to accept it.
The justifications they've put up for the changes are weak and easy to poke holes in, and that's what has people upset.

It is not straight up performance. I think they are implementing things with performance in mind, though.

They tend to not talk to us about performance. If what they do pans out, they don't need to. If what they do does not pan out, they don't want to. We have to guess about performance, and my guess is that 2022 is the *real* year of performance work. I think that this is part of it, as was AwA, and there may be more stuff coming in 4Q. That is in addition to the hardware refresh and the core "rewrite" they are doing.

Jaraal

spongebobmovieticket wrote: »

Just trying to understand the logic here. Why and where did this idea to change almost everything about combat in the game come from? Did I miss the mass of people complaining about “effective” dps that merited these changes, or is this completely out of nowhere?

A lot of contradictions happening in this new update.

No, ZOS just saw too many 140k dps parses and decided it was time to nerf damage across the board. That’s what “lowering the ceiling” means. Problem is, it lowers the floor, too.

Jaraal

Elsonso wrote: »

I am hearing some comments that the increase to 20 seconds is making managing skills easier and allows attention to combat, not just reapplying DoT.

If you cast four DOTs in a fight, is it easier to count to 10 for each, or count to 20 for each?


Asking for a friend.

DairyCat

Jaraal wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

I am hearing some comments that the increase to 20 seconds is making managing skills easier and allows attention to combat, not just reapplying DoT.

If you cast four DOTs in a fight, is it easier to count to 10 for each, or count to 20 for each?


Asking for a friend.

People don't count they just look at the buff/dot timers. They now look at those timers less frequently presumably.

Jpk0012

DairyCat wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

I am hearing some comments that the increase to 20 seconds is making managing skills easier and allows attention to combat, not just reapplying DoT.

If you cast four DOTs in a fight, is it easier to count to 10 for each, or count to 20 for each?


Asking for a friend.

People don't count they just look at the buff/dot timers. They now look at those timers less frequently presumably.

They won't even be used anymore unless its a trial boss or it also gives a buff/debuff. Using your spammable will be far more productive.

Munkfist

xgoku1 wrote: »

spongebobmovieticket wrote: »

Just trying to understand the logic here. Why and where did this idea to change almost everything about combat in the game come from? Did I miss the mass of people complaining about “effective” dps that merited these changes, or is this completely out of nowhere?

A lot of contradictions happening in this new update.

To answer your question, yes. They are addressing concerns from people who dislike the game's combat. Like this

There are people who hate light attack weaving. This is ZOS' attempt at "fixing" weaving and meeting halfway because removing it is not possible.

There are people who find the constant upkeep of DoTs quite annoying, so they increased DoT durations.

Ouf, that thread was a painful one to read.


I absolutely LOVE(d) the combat in ESO. Just spent many hours on the PTS, not so much the case. I hope they have some great things up their sleeves over the next few weeks, but these combat changes have made things just feel tedious. It's slow, it's clunky, it's boring. Everything that made ESO's combat fun is now gone. It really feels like they've just added cooldowns and disguised them as DoTs. Not a fan of it one bit, and I really hope most of this doesn't go through.

Xinihp

I don't buy this is to nerf top end DPS.

Light attack weaving and per-pull AOE has been a part of what made ESO combat fun forever.

Top tier DPS is what? Less than 5% of the entire population that does world record trial runs/trifectas?

So we are going to wreck the fun combat pace and experience of 95% of the game's population with 40% nerfs to everything after promising to take things slow and stop with the sledgehammer balancing just to lower DPS for 5% of players?

That seems a lot like spending $100 to prevent 5 pennies slipping into the couch cushions.

Why is this even an issue? Who care's what DPS number the top 5% are pulling?

These changes will wreck my fun a hell of a lot more than some imagined petty jealousy of DPS meter numbers in groups I will never be a part of anyway.

Really bizarre thinking behind these changes.

SimonThesis

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that all the talk about overland being too easy and quest bosses dying too fast has something to do with this, and with some bosses now having phases where they are unattackable. In my opinion lowering the ceiling seems like a logical choice to reduce the gap between newer players and vets.

The problem is they arent just lowering the ceiling they are nerfing everyone even new/casual players. Dots and a lot of class spammables will do much less damage. No one in the overland difficulty thread was asking for this exact change, if anything most just wanted overland mobs to do more damage and actually do something other than stand there.

Pevey

Mixalis966 wrote: »

I do not know what is happening with the damage nerf and why everyone is so negative.What i do know is that after i returned to the game after a couple of years the damage was way too high.Rakhat nuke with a craglorn pug and people nuking bosses like they are nothing in dungeons .I found a lot of people having trifecta achievements they did not deserve and content being a lot easier,plus the devs work to bring mechanics in the game and they are non existent with a good team apart from last boss every other boss is a target dummy and that is not healthy.Do not try to convince me otherwise because there is no point,damage was way too much and everyone knows it.You cannot skip mechanics like its nothing and trifecta achievements should mean something because the game right now with the damage being sky high is too easy to pose a challenge to real gamers.If i had to pick a side between professional target dummy parsers in youtube or the devs i would go with the devs.

“Trifecta achievements they did not deserve” —Wow, this is the definition of gatekeeping and toxicity. You are for these changes because you think people were achieving too much, more than they deserved. That is the opposite of wanting things to be more accessible. But at least it shows the true nature of these changes. Far from leveling the playing field, these changes will cause more gatekeeping.

Amottica

kieso wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

I asked for these changes.

Your welcome.

Nuh uh, I asked 😌

With both of us asking it is clear to Zenimax the player base as a whole wants these changes.

So again, to everyone @kieso and myself just wanted to say, you are welcome.

Elsonso

prof_doom wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

However, buried in here, and not talked about widely, are some potentially significant performance changes.

Honestly, if they were to just straight up admit it's a performance thing, people might actually be willing to accept it.
The justifications they've put up for the changes are weak and easy to poke holes in, and that's what has people upset.

It is not straight up performance. I think they are implementing things with performance in mind, though.

They tend to not talk to us about performance. If what they do pans out, they don't need to. If what they do does not pan out, they don't want to. We have to guess about performance, and my guess is that 2022 is the *real* year of performance work. I think that this is part of it, as was AwA, and there may be more stuff coming in 4Q. That is in addition to the hardware refresh and the core "rewrite" they are doing.

Jaraal wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

I am hearing some comments that the increase to 20 seconds is making managing skills easier and allows attention to combat, not just reapplying DoT.

If you cast four DOTs in a fight, is it easier to count to 10 for each, or count to 20 for each?


Asking for a friend.

I can optionally not wear shoes, so I am good with both 10 and 20. Above that, I need a friend.

Seriously, I have never counted seconds to recast a DoT, so I can't answer that.

Jaraal

Elsonso wrote: »

Seriously, I have never counted seconds to recast a DoT, so I can't answer that.

And that's why this change hurts low end players, because many will just continue to mash buttons when they guess it's time to.... unnecessarily refreshing (33% less powerful) DOTs before they expire. Their resource management just got significantly harder.

Top players use a mental metronome to time all their actions, and it will also be more challenging for them as well to work 20 second rotations in instead of 10.

jaws343

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ZOS has been trying to nerf top end DPS for like 3 years now. Every attempt has drastically failed. It's no surprise that they are trying again. And, it seems, successfully so.

SO they decided to do an everybody nerf? It does appear that that is the case. Doesn't make much sense.

The thing is, I think they have been facing a rather large problem for a while now. They have to keep adding in attractive sets each patch, or players revolt. Compound that over a few years, and those sets just keep pushing damage. But, because they keep pushing damage, dungeon and trial bosses keep pushing health and difficulty to counter it. To the point where, a base game vet dungeon boss has like 3M health, and there are DLC bosses with 10M health.

At a certain point, that gulf between new DLC dungeons and base game dungeons becomes astronomically wide to account for power creep. And impossible to balance. Which means that it becomes less and less accessible as the floor stays low and the top keeps rising.

If this change does anything good, it will allow them to adjust existing content, and better scale new content within the adjusted damage expectations.

Prof_Bawbag

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I assume its Microsoft asking for more openness and inclusion to make the game easier for more customers, which is why they went a sudden turn around from their previous direction not too long ago.

I highly doubt MS care enough about ESO to even begin to dictate what should be what. Add to that, it's pure folly to even think they can dictate to Bethesda which gameplay mechanics should and shouldn't be available in any given game.

It's as if some people on here only began playing this game once MS jumped onboard. No other reason why you would think this is something new. It's been happening for years.

Kantuuka

RIP ESO

Elsonso

Jaraal wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Seriously, I have never counted seconds to recast a DoT, so I can't answer that.

And that's why this change hurts low end players, because many will just continue to mash buttons when they guess it's time to.... unnecessarily refreshing (33% less powerful) DOTs before they expire. Their resource management just got significantly harder.

Top players use a mental metronome to time all their actions, and it will also be more challenging for them as well to work 20 second rotations in instead of 10.

I am not sure what to say about button mashing low end players. There are many things going on here, and it really covers a lot of different players. They cannot be zip tied together as a group and described. Some of them are learning, hopefully, and those people will adapt from 10 seconds to 20 seconds. I am sure there are also players that would be surprised to be told that it is currently 10 seconds, because a skill lasts time, then ends, and the duration is trivial information. I suggest that a lot of players in this general category respond to on-screen cues and do not make any attempt to weave at all because they are basing their combat on what they see on screen. Weaving requires understanding of how the combat system works, and that is an advanced mode that moves them out of the "low end".

Again, I suspect that there is also a large, potentially alarmingly large, demographic where Mouse Button is the main button that gets mashed, so LA damage is more of a problem than counting seconds for a DoT.

Top players using a mental metronome will adjust to the new timing... or they aren't really top players. Right?

The3sFinest

As was probably already said, so many people in the last year have been begging for harder overland content. Now Zos gives you a solution for that, suddenly they no longer want a hard game. You asked, they serve, now you complain you will not be able to kill a monster.

Not that your request was the reason they did this.

Xinihp

The3sFinest wrote: »

As was probably already said, so many people in the last year have been begging for harder overland content. Now Zos gives you a solution for that, suddenly they no longer want a hard game. You asked, they serve, now you complain you will not be able to kill a monster.

No one was asking to make every DoT and AOE in the game take TWICE as long to do the same damage, or to nerf classes by 30-40% or outright remove identity/functionality. People were asking for a veteran difficulty slider for overland and to take the time to add intelligent new mechanics to NPC's which is REAL difficulty. Just increasing a health bar slider to make mobs bullet sponges is LAZY and FAKE difficulty.

What they did has absolutely nothing to do with people asking for a veteran difficulty slider for overland. I'm not sure how you could even relate those two completely unrelated concepts.

It would be like saying everyone was asking for for better tasting food so you just close all the restaurants in town and tell them to go cook their own because they could probably do better, then saying you were giving the customer what they wanted.

This is NOT giving the customers anything they want.

NewBlacksmurf

Here is the actual problem and solution all in one.

During early alpha, the game was legit hard. Difficulty was based on the zone compared to your level and unlocked skills.

There were no champion points and veteran levels existed but honestly should not have.

They wanted to unlock the gated content from quests in the other factions but wanted to offer progression.

There should not have been any changes to the initial difficulty but also there should not have been any veteran or champion levels.

Separately PvP content should have been a separate progression where skills and armor were not tied to any PvE content and only the characters name and visuals should be used.

Faction locking should have remained and this would have allowed them to base all content off level 1-50 and all would have been well.

Crafting, dungeons and trial gear should have been the PvE progression.

Kiralyn2000

Agenericname wrote: »

[
I highly doubt that. Most overland mobs die in a single attack.

I've never had an overland mob die in one hit. My Marplar is two sets of jabs, usually.
With my bow Stamblade, it's a Focused Aim & a few instants (poison injection, acid spray, draining shot) and some LA's. But that one has thief/stealth sets equipped - Night's Silence, Night Mother's Embrace. 33k stam, 3.1k weapon damage, 34.5% crit, 4.6k pen. (my original "I came from Skyrim" main, stealth bow ftl )

DOTs or managing DOTs isnt really part of overland. That was clearly aimed at sustain rotations; dungeons, trials, and arenas.

But yeah, this patch isn't aimed at overland.