Did anyone ask for these changes?

p00tx

SilverBride wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree that the ceiling is Vet Trial DPS, but then we have end game players complaining that overland is too easy and quest bosses die too fast, and asking for their difficulty to be increased to be more in line with the ceiling.

I don't think this is their goal. I believe these changes are meant to lower the ceiling, not to raise the floor.

They aren't going to lower the ceiling down to the point that end game players are struggling with quest bosses. It's just not gonna happen, so I don't see the connection you're making.

I agree, but some players are asking for that. They believe that overland should be a challenge for the most powerful players, which is not logical in my opinion.

Not even in the slightest. Is overland stuff ridiculously easy? Yes. Do I care or does it concern me? Not even the tiniest bit. I'm focused on the hardest and newest content the game offers, and am happy to leave the rest as it is for those who are new to the game or who just enjoy relaxing overland questing. I have no desire to mess with that part of the game, and I'm not alone in that sentiment. Please stop trying to turn this into an adversarial issue. It's not going to make this better for anyone, and that should be our ultimate goal.

Mixalis966

I do not know what is happening with the damage nerf and why everyone is so negative.What i do know is that after i returned to the game after a couple of years the damage was way too high.Rakhat nuke with a craglorn pug and people nuking bosses like they are nothing in dungeons .I found a lot of people having trifecta achievements they did not deserve and content being a lot easier,plus the devs work to bring mechanics in the game and they are non existent with a good team apart from last boss every other boss is a target dummy and that is not healthy.Do not try to convince me otherwise because there is no point,damage was way too much and everyone knows it.You cannot skip mechanics like its nothing and trifecta achievements should mean something because the game right now with the damage being sky high is too easy to pose a challenge to real gamers.If i had to pick a side between professional target dummy parsers in youtube or the devs i would go with the devs.

FlopsyPrince

jaws343 wrote: »

ZOS has been trying to nerf top end DPS for like 3 years now. Every attempt has drastically failed. It's no surprise that they are trying again. And, it seems, successfully so.

It seems like (from what I have heard, not direct experience) that the problem will be that lower end DPS will really pay the penalty for this. I do lots of light attacks to get magicka or stamina for my abilities. Nerfing what those do is not a good thing.

I don't (as far as I know) do any weaving, just button mashing in many ways....

Riptide

Very much agreed. Those of us calling to make overland more difficult for years I literally have never seen, not once, someone ask it be made across the board - but an optional mode. I mean in almost a decade not once.

This penchant for pvers blaming pvpers for this or that or just any number or finding a bogeyman among the playerbase - this I blame zos for. Both for lurching all over the place as far as combat updates and keeping the forums at arms length. People assume that whatever grievance is because they are listening so some “other” group that is by their nature selfish and toxic, and a whole imaginary phantom gets created.

Zos and only zos did all this.

Jaimeh

Mixalis966 wrote: »

I do not know what is happening with the damage nerf and why everyone is so negative.What i do know is that after i returned to the game after a couple of years the damage was way too high.Rakhat nuke with a craglorn pug and people nuking bosses like they are nothing in dungeons .I found a lot of people having trifecta achievements they did not deserve and content being a lot easier,plus the devs work to bring mechanics in the game and they are non existent with a good team apart from last boss every other boss is a target dummy and that is not healthy.Do not try to convince me otherwise because there is no point,damage was way too much and everyone knows it.You cannot skip mechanics like its nothing and trifecta achievements should mean something because the game right now with the damage being sky high is too easy to pose a challenge to real gamers.If i had to pick a side between professional target dummy parsers in youtube or the devs i would go with the devs.

But there are fights in the game that have a dps requirement (a so called dps check) whereby if you don't do enough group damage (and it's pretty high, for eg., in RGHM) in x amount of time, there's a wipe mechanic that cannot be overcome by any other means. So what's it going to be? Lower damage to combat power creep or keep bringing out such content? There's no denying there's power creep, but there's also content-creep, so to speak. What ZOS is oing will only hurt the completion rates. Also, trifecta achievements do mean something, given the extremely low rates compared to the game's population. There's a handful of groups across all platforms/servers who can do these shenanigans that make it seem easy, and in these groups damage is not the whole picture. The amount of coordination, optimization and movement is also a huge factor.

Agenericname

Jaimeh wrote: »

Mixalis966 wrote: »

I do not know what is happening with the damage nerf and why everyone is so negative.What i do know is that after i returned to the game after a couple of years the damage was way too high.Rakhat nuke with a craglorn pug and people nuking bosses like they are nothing in dungeons .I found a lot of people having trifecta achievements they did not deserve and content being a lot easier,plus the devs work to bring mechanics in the game and they are non existent with a good team apart from last boss every other boss is a target dummy and that is not healthy.Do not try to convince me otherwise because there is no point,damage was way too much and everyone knows it.You cannot skip mechanics like its nothing and trifecta achievements should mean something because the game right now with the damage being sky high is too easy to pose a challenge to real gamers.If i had to pick a side between professional target dummy parsers in youtube or the devs i would go with the devs.

But there are fights in the game that have a dps requirement (a so called dps check) whereby if you don't do enough group damage (and it's pretty high, for eg., in RGHM) in x amount of time, there's a wipe mechanic that cannot be overcome by any other means. So what's it going to be? Lower damage to combat power creep or keep bringing out such content? There's no denying there's power creep, but there's also content-creep, so to speak. What ZOS is oing will only hurt the completion rates. Also, trifecta achievements do mean something, given the extremely low rates compared to the game's population. There's a handful of groups across all platforms/servers who can do these shenanigans that make it seem easy, and in these groups damage is not the whole picture. The amount of coordination, optimization and movement is also a huge factor.

In the case of RG HM, they, ZOS, would have to adjust the content. There arent very many hard DPS checks that this will effect though.

It does make me think that there isn't really a solid long term plan though. What was the point of RG HM if they were trying to close the gap in the first place? It gives the change a more whimsical feel, but who knows? Im not sure what the end goal here really is.

Olen_Mikko

Casuals bring the money and have a hard time to overcome a guest boss = guess the priorities

DagenHawk

Olen_Mikko wrote: »

Casuals bring the money and have a hard time to overcome a guest boss = guess the priorities

That has nothing to do with the changes....nothing is easier.

If they wanted to make things easier for casuals they would have made 10k overland content or made Four man DLC dungeons doable with two average players and their unleveled companions (Yes yes I know everyone should be able to solo those already) Nothing is easier...none of this helps casual players.

All of this hair pulling and half the people don't know what they are outraged about.

Typical life in 2022

SilverBride

Riptide wrote: »

Those of us calling to make overland more difficult for years I literally have never seen, not once, someone ask it be made across the board - but an optional mode. I mean in almost a decade not once.

More than one poster has suggested an across the board increase in difficulty in the pinned overland thread. I am not going to look through almost 4k posts to find it but they are there.

Agenericname

SilverBride wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Those of us calling to make overland more difficult for years I literally have never seen, not once, someone ask it be made across the board - but an optional mode. I mean in almost a decade not once.

More than one poster has suggested an across the board increase in difficulty in the pinned overland thread. I am not going to look through almost 4k posts to find it but they are there.

Unfortunately thats true, but theyre statistical outliers roughly the equivilant of asking ZOS to stop making group content.

They definitely dont represent the whole.

Riptide

SilverBride wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Those of us calling to make overland more difficult for years I literally have never seen, not once, someone ask it be made across the board - but an optional mode. I mean in almost a decade not once.

More than one poster has suggested an across the board increase in difficulty in the pinned overland thread. I am not going to look through almost 4k posts to find it but they are there.

Well I think you know that extremely rare post that you can’t recall isn’t the least bit responsible for this change - but I’ll take you at your word if that is your assertion.

SilverBride

Riptide wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Those of us calling to make overland more difficult for years I literally have never seen, not once, someone ask it be made across the board - but an optional mode. I mean in almost a decade not once.

More than one poster has suggested an across the board increase in difficulty in the pinned overland thread. I am not going to look through almost 4k posts to find it but they are there.

Well I think you know that extremely rare post that you can’t recall isn’t the least bit responsible for this change - but I’ll take you at your word if that is your assertion.

I do recall the posts, but there is no way I could be expected to remember exactly which posts out of almost 4000 these were. But my point was that some players have asked for across the board overland difficulty increases.

Riptide

SilverBride wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Riptide wrote: »

Those of us calling to make overland more difficult for years I literally have never seen, not once, someone ask it be made across the board - but an optional mode. I mean in almost a decade not once.

More than one poster has suggested an across the board increase in difficulty in the pinned overland thread. I am not going to look through almost 4k posts to find it but they are there.

Well I think you know that extremely rare post that you can’t recall isn’t the least bit responsible for this change - but I’ll take you at your word if that is your assertion.

I do recall the posts, but there is no way I could be expected to remember exactly which posts out of almost 4000 these were. But my point was that some players have asked for across the board overland difficulty increases.

Right, but you are by inference drawing a connection between that and these changes.

Some folks have asked for easier rotations too, but relatively rarely, in a vaguely memorable way. If I or anyone else inferred that they spurred this update, then naturally folks would blame those who wanted things to be “easy”.

Pretty clearly it seems to me that entire overland thread has been largely ignored, and these changes are not being sourced from any part of the community whatever, but rather from an internal set of goals and strategies.

And my opinion is that finger pointing, either direct or oblique, at any section of the community does not do service to that fact. It is right and honest that they own it wholly.

Amottica

I asked for these changes.

Your welcome.

Riptide

Amottica wrote: »

I asked for these changes.

Your welcome.

I actually laughed, nice one

Veinblood1965

DagenHawk wrote: »

Yes I asked for every single one of them multiple times.

Wow and I thought they were just listening to my complaint about it. Takes the wind out from under my wings now.

Galiferno

I run and tank in a vet trial guild and all my DPS are worried about the loss in damage. Xalvakka HM looks even more unobtainable for us, so we're on a strict time limit to clear it before this new patch. I feel like the people celebrating these changes don't participate in content where it actually affects them or they would know how horrible it sounds. Falgravn HM will take even longer(it has 275m health), that is if the average group can even clear with the nerf to healing. So all I see when people celebrate these nerfs is support for harsher gatekeeping for vet content. And it might not matter to them if all they do is overland/solo content(in which case, balance changes are irrelevant, anything works in overland, why cater to them?), but for players genuinely trying to improve, for all 3 roles, their potential to participate in endgame content just got struck down. So woohoo, let's be happy about ruining people's progress and effort!

DagenHawk

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Yes I asked for every single one of them multiple times.

Wow and I thought they were just listening to my complaint about it. Takes the wind out from under my wings now.

It's okay I shall hold you up until the wind returns

Holycannoli

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This has nothing to do with Overland, IMO. In the ESO Live, they flat out stated they wanted to close the gap so that more players get to see vet content. That's the goal. To get people hitting vet walls but who want to engage in vet content into that content, so that the game has a more logical and natural progression. This would result in more endgame players.

Nerfing damage isn't the way to accomplish this.

They will have succeeded at accomplishing the exact opposite of what they wanted to accomplish.

jcaceresw

Some people says the damage they do is way too high.... Even after playing the game since beta I still struggle to kill a single nix-hound without dying several times. My dps is around 1k at most if I am lucky to stay alive to manage that number. I really wish I could solo world-bosses and veteran dungeons like they claim they can do. Now with these changes guess is time to say ESO goodbye for good (and my wallet too).

jtm1018

A lot of oakensoul hate comes from pvp of eso, most I heard are in bg, specifically werewolf wearing oakensoul.
I knew it was coming but wished it was not, update 35 is the answer to that.
I swear I finally learned my lesson from esobeth.

carlos424

xgoku1 wrote: »

spongebobmovieticket wrote: »

Just trying to understand the logic here. Why and where did this idea to change almost everything about combat in the game come from? Did I miss the mass of people complaining about “effective” dps that merited these changes, or is this completely out of nowhere?

A lot of contradictions happening in this new update.

To answer your question, yes. They are addressing concerns from people who dislike the game's combat. Like this

There are people who hate light attack weaving. This is ZOS' attempt at "fixing" weaving and meeting halfway because removing it is not possible.

There are people who find the constant upkeep of DoTs quite annoying, so they increased DoT durations.

If only that was all they did.

Ragnarok0130

jaws343 wrote: »

ZOS has been trying to nerf top end DPS for like 3 years now. Every attempt has drastically failed. It's no surprise that they are trying again. And, it seems, successfully so.

In the Battlefield community we say that DICE has stood up an "Anti-fun Department"; it seems some of those department members have recently switched over to ZoS...

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This has nothing to do with Overland, IMO. In the ESO Live, they flat out stated they wanted to close the gap so that more players get to see vet content. That's the goal. To get people hitting vet walls but who want to engage in vet content into that content, so that the game has a more logical and natural progression. This would result in more endgame players.

Except these changes will likely do the opposite. They will lower the ceiling while making good DPS numbers less attainable for your average normie by lowering the floor so they likely won't see the very vet content the devs want to get them into. The people intent on improving their numbers under the current system may in fact fall far short after the changes. I'm very curious to what the PTS will show since the devs haven't mentioned detuning current vet content to adjust for these damage nerfs.

If the goal is more end game players then they should add a normal mode Trial group finder for newer players to get their feet wet, or officially sponsor things like Project Vitality which is actually growing the number of ESO Trial players unlike the update 35 changes.

prof_doom

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This has nothing to do with Overland, IMO. In the ESO Live, they flat out stated they wanted to close the gap so that more players get to see vet content. That's the goal. To get people hitting vet walls but who want to engage in vet content into that content, so that the game has a more logical and natural progression. This would result in more endgame players.

Which this patch utterly fails at.
They didn't lower the ceiling and/or raise the floor, they dropped the whole house down, which is what everyone is trying to tell the devs.

I'll be hopeful and say that we only lose 15K on average after the dust settles.
You were doing 85K+, you're gonna be just fine.

But if you were just starting to do Vet Trials, and you were only doing say, 65K damage or so, you're probably no longer able to do your trials, especially if you were trying to do the newer ones.

Elsonso

xgoku1 wrote: »

There are people who find the constant upkeep of DoTs quite annoying, so they increased DoT durations.

I am hearing some comments that the increase to 20 seconds is making managing skills easier and allows attention to combat, not just reapplying DoT. Personally, I expect that it is throwing off everyone's "muscle memory" and expect a lot of "relearning combat" experiences.

However, buried in here, and not talked about widely, are some potentially significant performance changes. The flat LA and HA damage eliminates some calculations, or allows them to be moved elsewhere. Meanwhile, 2 seconds between ticks cuts server load from DoTs by roughly half. I have to think that even if Hell was freezing over, these things would stay on the docket for just that reason.

Riptide

Thing is outside of target dummies and the most stationary of targets it is hard to imagine how 20 second dots are going to be useful. For someone in overland or the like theyll just be overlapping uptime and doing less damage, unless I misunderstand.

Great point about server load re: dots.

prof_doom

Elsonso wrote: »

However, buried in here, and not talked about widely, are some potentially significant performance changes.

Honestly, if they were to just straight up admit it's a performance thing, people might actually be willing to accept it.
The justifications they've put up for the changes are weak and easy to poke holes in, and that's what has people upset.

spartaxoxo

Ragnarok0130 wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

ZOS has been trying to nerf top end DPS for like 3 years now. Every attempt has drastically failed. It's no surprise that they are trying again. And, it seems, successfully so.

In the Battlefield community we say that DICE has stood up an "Anti-fun Department"; it seems some of those department members have recently switched over to ZoS...

spartaxoxo wrote: »

This has nothing to do with Overland, IMO. In the ESO Live, they flat out stated they wanted to close the gap so that more players get to see vet content. That's the goal. To get people hitting vet walls but who want to engage in vet content into that content, so that the game has a more logical and natural progression. This would result in more endgame players.

Except these changes will likely do the opposite.

Preaching to the choir, I have a whole thread about it. I agree completely. What they intended and what they actually accomplished are totally different. But, I was just responding to their intentions so I decided not to go on a big rant I already made a whole thread about. I keep having to post in it because I just can't believe how far off the mark these changes are!

prof_doom wrote: »

But if you were just starting to do Vet Trials, and you were only doing say, 65K damage or so, you're probably no longer able to do your trials, especially if you were trying to do the newer ones.

This me. I feel defeated.

kieso

Amottica wrote: »

I asked for these changes.

Your welcome.

Nuh uh, I asked 😌

etchedpixels

Overland really doesn't matter too much. It's aimed at story players or the step from Skyrim play to MMO play . If you are just into story and RP then the overland is fine because you'll master it as you complete the stories, save the world, feel like superman and then go play a different game. A bit of an overland nerf isn't a bad thing IMHO but it's really not about the combat. Combat and travel in overland as in Skyrim and Oblivion primarily exist to pace the story.

For dungeon and trial content a good hard nerf is IMHO definitely needed. I'm dubious the PTS changes are the right nerf but we are still on first guess, and you can be pretty sure the devs will be staring at all the telemetry and graphs.

"We want more people to do vet content" is doomed to fail though. If anyone can do vet content then why bother.