Did anyone ask for these changes?

spongebobmovieticket

Just trying to understand the logic here. Why and where did this idea to change almost everything about combat in the game come from? Did I miss the mass of people complaining about “effective” dps that merited these changes, or is this completely out of nowhere?

A lot of contradictions happening in this new update.

Riptide

Not that I saw. I’ve been one of the more vocal folks about overland difficulty being too easy for many years, but my opinion and the consensus almost always centers around that being optional.

Numbers creep they could have addressed in a myriad of simpler, streamlined, even background ways that did not necessitate the sort of rebuilding lots of players are going to have to do.

To say nothing of the timing.

*shrug

jaws343

ZOS has been trying to nerf top end DPS for like 3 years now. Every attempt has drastically failed. It's no surprise that they are trying again. And, it seems, successfully so.

Xandreia_

doesn't matter if these changes were asked for or not, its so obvious zos doesn't listen to consumers, instead they just come up with random ideas and think of a way to make it as bad as possible for everyone

ixthUA

My understanding is that there's bad management, plus dev team needs something to do. They could introduce new features, but it would take much more development time than refining old features, so thats what we get.

Riptide

Xandreia_ wrote: »

doesn't matter if these changes were asked for or not, its so obvious zos doesn't listen to consumers, instead they just come up with random ideas and think of a way to make it as bad as possible for everyone

I don’t know about random, but it does seem like an approach to math that takes into account engaging the combat team so that the beancounters don’t look to cut them.

Since reducing top end numbers could be done any number of different ways that doesn’t, and doesn’t make the community into Mos Eisley.

And while I’ respect that approach to stave off layoffs or switches from full time employees to contractors, I it reveals leadership with unequal footing with the suits, and an inability to gain it. Part of the reason I think change would be good.

But those are just my rambling conjectures ofc

xgoku1

spongebobmovieticket wrote: »

Just trying to understand the logic here. Why and where did this idea to change almost everything about combat in the game come from? Did I miss the mass of people complaining about “effective” dps that merited these changes, or is this completely out of nowhere?

A lot of contradictions happening in this new update.

To answer your question, yes. They are addressing concerns from people who dislike the game's combat. Like this

There are people who hate light attack weaving. This is ZOS' attempt at "fixing" weaving and meeting halfway because removing it is not possible.

There are people who find the constant upkeep of DoTs quite annoying, so they increased DoT durations.

VaranisArano

Molag Kena, Domihaus, and the coalition of trial bosses complained about power creep again.

kieso

Me 🙂

JustAGoodPlayer

What they need to do ?

Before:
DPS is (15 spamables + 10 LA)/10

Now they need to do:
DPS = (9 dots + 11 spammable +20 LA) / 20 = (29 spammable + 20 LA) / 10
Near the same damage.

And make La as example 2k.

Player with no LA will do 29 spammables.

HA players with cast of HA 2 second on lightning staff - press the same 20 buttons as player who do not do any LA - get resources back but can not block and move slower thats wgy have to have the same damage.

So 8 DOTS + 10 HA = 18 spammable + 10 HA + 1 buff

So DPS is (18 spammable + 10 HA)/20

All they need to do to make 29-18 spammables = 10 HA

So HA damage = spammable damage and cast as example 2 seconds.

Buff = 1 spammable.

Whet the hell they do even GOD do not know ... .

SilverBride

I suspect that all the talk about overland being too easy and quest bosses dying too fast has something to do with this, and with some bosses now having phases where they are unattackable. In my opinion lowering the ceiling seems like a logical choice to reduce the gap between newer players and vets.

phaneub17_ESO

I assume its Microsoft asking for more openness and inclusion to make the game easier for more customers, which is why they went a sudden turn around from their previous direction not too long ago.

DagenHawk

Yes I asked for every single one of them multiple times.

Thanks Zenimax you guys are awesome.

phaneub17_ESO wrote: »

I assume its Microsoft asking for more openness and inclusion to make the game easier for more customers, which is why they went a sudden turn around from their previous direction not too long ago.

You do know they started on this a couple years before the Microsoft buy yes? They said that they had started on this a few years back.

Rex-Umbra

I asked for these changes thanks ZOS.

sharquez

Many of the nerfs were pleaded for ad nauseum. But some of the hits are kind of sad to see. Ideally the game will feel better for it with skillful play being rewarded, and even options handed for what everyone wants to accomplish all around, whether that being a tank a healer or damage dealer. Is that what we are getting? I have no clue I haven't successfully gotten into the PTS to find out. So I'm reserving judgment.

I have at least 3 of every class so usually have a pretty good idea of how to play all of them. But we will see if i can ever get in.

I never really thought that Nightblade's Surprise Attack/Concealed Weapon needed a buff, It almost never leaves my bar, but someone apparently thought it did. If it comes through, Great! My Gankers will get stronger. If not. I'm still right were I was which is a fine place to be.

IDK if my sorcerers will ever be for anything but PVE again after these changes, but seeing as how my main is an Argonian Sorc with an identity crisis that feels bad on almost any spec I play anyway, Not much has changed there.

DK is strong, it seems like its where it wants to be right now and all these changes do for it is eliminate outlier builds that you had to jump through hoops to get to work. It seems to me like the combat team does not want anyone but nightblades to have successful gank builds so whatever.

Templar is gonna get weird. I'm kinda excited but kinda uneasy. Still hopefully top 3 for outright pvp brawling.

Warden, I guess i should have looked harder at those wacky bird bleeds that I thought were a dumb cheap gimmick. With how swingy the changes have been for warden latley I have no confidence I know how to do anything but be annoying, not die, and pull people off alessia bridge with wardens. No point now as that's getting changed. Scorch getting messed with for some reason.

Necros either go kaboom or throw bleeds with synergy gryphons, Or bash. They do alot of things well. They are getting worse as healers for themselves it looks like at least

chessalavakia_ESO

xgoku1 wrote: »

spongebobmovieticket wrote: »

Just trying to understand the logic here. Why and where did this idea to change almost everything about combat in the game come from? Did I miss the mass of people complaining about “effective” dps that merited these changes, or is this completely out of nowhere?

A lot of contradictions happening in this new update.

To answer your question, yes. They are addressing concerns from people who dislike the game's combat. Like this

There are people who hate light attack weaving. This is ZOS' attempt at "fixing" weaving and meeting halfway because removing it is not possible.

There are people who find the constant upkeep of DoTs quite annoying, so they increased DoT durations.

Puncturing Strikes:

This ability and its morphs now hit 3 times over a channel time of 800ms, rather than 4 times over 1 second.
Implemented new animations and visual effects to match the attack cadence.
Reduced the cost of this ability and the Puncturing Sweeps morph to 2295, down from 2700.
Reduced the overall damage of the primary attack by approximately 21% since this ability no longer incurs a DPS loss while weaving within the 1 second global cooldown window.

They want weaving to be happening to the point that they are reworking one of the most popular skills in the game to make it happen they just don't want weaving to be doing as much damage.

One of the dangers with having passionate staff is the passions will rarely align with large audiences and they will follow that passion to the detriment of both the companies profits and the players.

francesinhalover

xgoku1 wrote: »

spongebobmovieticket wrote: »

Just trying to understand the logic here. Why and where did this idea to change almost everything about combat in the game come from? Did I miss the mass of people complaining about “effective” dps that merited these changes, or is this completely out of nowhere?

A lot of contradictions happening in this new update.

To answer your question, yes. They are addressing concerns from people who dislike the game's combat. Like this

There are people who hate light attack weaving. This is ZOS' attempt at "fixing" weaving and meeting halfway because removing it is not possible.

There are people who find the constant upkeep of DoTs quite annoying, so they increased DoT durations.

ah, what about the concerns from the actual players1? on the forums?
eso combat is boring not because of how it functions it's because it looks boring, skills and animations are all stiff and barely have movement.
I guess social media opinion is more important like twitter.
If they want more players, they could just make a asia server. Be cause everyone is forced on to eu and us and play at 1000 ping

Holycannoli

I've been asking the same thing. Was there some vocal minority somewhere pleading for these changes? Why all of a sudden after 9 years is weaving getting nerfed? Atro getting nerfed? DoTs getting nerfed? The entire flow of combat is made a lot more boring and damage is down, and did anyone anywhere ask for it?

Cryptor

everyone has been complaining about how PvE content is too easy, this makes PvE content slightly harder all across the board. for the record I like the idea of decreasing overall DPS output through these nerfs, the game IS too easy atm.

I asked for these changes.

DagenHawk

Cryptor wrote: »

everyone has been complaining about how PvE content is too easy, this makes PvE content slightly harder all across the board. for the record I like the idea of decreasing overall DPS output through these nerfs, the game IS too easy atm.

I asked for these changes.

But wait...the end game players were saying that ZoS was dumbing down the game yesterday ...now it's harder.

I honestly think that the most important thing in the community is to be outraged for outrage sake.

They game hasn't been dumbed down our eccentric convoluted CP system and vague set descriptors attest to that. Nor is it noticeably harder it might take me two seconds more to kill a world boss on PTS ......

This is why ZoS can't listen to the Ido silliness on the forums though it's just noise...meaningless noise.

VaranisArano

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that all the talk about overland being too easy and quest bosses dying too fast has something to do with this, and with some bosses now having phases where they are unattackable. In my opinion lowering the ceiling seems like a logical choice to reduce the gap between newer players and vets.

The ceiling is Vet Trial DPS, which has nothing to do with overland content and quest bosses.

Overland content becomes a cakewalk at 15k DPS. Seriously, I have to bring my MagDK tank who does like 8k DPS to even see the mechanics on minibosses.

That's a lot closer to the floor than the ceiling, so if ZOS is really raising the floor, overland content is only going to get easier. Arguably, though, they aren't successfully raising the floor, since after four years of training new players to use light attacks for free damage, they are nerfing them.

Agenericname

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that all the talk about overland being too easy and quest bosses dying too fast has something to do with this, and with some bosses now having phases where they are unattackable. In my opinion lowering the ceiling seems like a logical choice to reduce the gap between newer players and vets.

I highly doubt that. Most overland mobs die in a single attack. DOTs or managing DOTs isnt really part of overland. That was clearly aimed at sustain rotations; dungeons, trials, and arenas.

Light attacks arent an issue in overland, at all. If someone is struggling in overland, it isnt because of light attacks. In fact, with the exception of a few abilities that use them specifically, they could be removed entirely and the difficulty meter for overland wouldnt budge. The comment sounds more like salt than reason.

To answer the OP, yes, they have. There's a number of posts asking to remove light attacks and animation canceling. Usually theyre treated as synonymous. I doubt very many people truly want to see animation canceling removed, but I would enjoy watching that patch. Hopefully no more than a week though.

DagenHawk

VaranisArano wrote: »

Overland content becomes a cakewalk at 15k DPS. Seriously

There are a couple world Bosses in the Rift that would like to have a word with you...

Also sure the type of player that screams at people because they didn't choose the right race/class combo and spends hours on the Trial dummies with just the perfect set synergy...I guess the whole game is just one big cake walk.

Dude no one wants to do that....I mean yeah a handful do but no average player wants to do that.

And ESO is 99% average players. Zenimax (finally) realizes that and are reacting accordingly...

On one of the Twitch streams a guy was just flabbergasted that his insults had no effect on people who were for this...average people won't be offended for the same reason we don't argue about Star Wars movies. Most folks actually after playing on PTS doesn't understand why there is all the uproar it still takes about the same time to kill a mob...

That is what you are dealing with. As I said before I don't think you guys are going to win this one.

Jpk0012

VaranisArano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that all the talk about overland being too easy and quest bosses dying too fast has something to do with this, and with some bosses now having phases where they are unattackable. In my opinion lowering the ceiling seems like a logical choice to reduce the gap between newer players and vets.

The ceiling is Vet Trial DPS, which has nothing to do with overland content and quest bosses.

Overland content becomes a cakewalk at 15k DPS. Seriously, I have to bring my MagDK tank who does like 8k DPS to even see the mechanics on minibosses.

That's a lot closer to the floor than the ceiling, so if ZOS is really raising the floor, overland content is only going to get easier. Arguably, though, they aren't successfully raising the floor, since after four years of training new players to use light attacks for free damage, they are nerfing them.

The problem is no one on the team plays the game. They read the forums, they see people whining about overland content being too easy and they nerf everyone. I guess, they conveniently ignore our pleas to take the DLC dungeons out of the random dungeon queue. I'm sure lowered dps across the board will help change our mind, though!

And pug vet dungeons were already extremely frustrating to complete. That completion rate is going to be even more pathetically low.

SilverBride

VaranisArano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that all the talk about overland being too easy and quest bosses dying too fast has something to do with this, and with some bosses now having phases where they are unattackable. In my opinion lowering the ceiling seems like a logical choice to reduce the gap between newer players and vets.

The ceiling is Vet Trial DPS, which has nothing to do with overland content and quest bosses.

Overland content becomes a cakewalk at 15k DPS. Seriously, I have to bring my MagDK tank who does like 8k DPS to even see the mechanics on minibosses.

That's a lot closer to the floor than the ceiling, so if ZOS is really raising the floor, overland content is only going to get easier. Arguably, though, they aren't successfully raising the floor, since after four years of training new players to use light attacks for free damage, they are nerfing them.

I agree that the ceiling is Vet Trial DPS, but then we have end game players complaining that overland is too easy and quest bosses die too fast, and asking for their difficulty to be increased to be more in line with the ceiling.

I don't think this is their goal. I believe these changes are meant to lower the ceiling, not to raise the floor.

Riptide

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that all the talk about overland being too easy and quest bosses dying too fast has something to do with this, and with some bosses now having phases where they are unattackable. In my opinion lowering the ceiling seems like a logical choice to reduce the gap between newer players and vets.

Maybe if they deliberately ignored the overwhelming sentiment that desired difficulty increases be optional

Which frankly I think is the case, as certain internal folks are adamantly opposed to doing it that way.

VaranisArano

DagenHawk wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Overland content becomes a cakewalk at 15k DPS. Seriously

There are a couple world Bosses in the Rift that would like to have a word with you...

Also sure the type of player that screams at people because they didn't choose the right race/class combo and spends hours on the Trial dummies with just the perfect set synergy...I guess the whole game is just one big cake walk.

Dude no one wants to do that....I mean yeah a handful do but no average player wants to do that.

And ESO is 99% average players. Zenimax (finally) realizes that and are reacting accordingly...

On one of the Twitch streams a guy was just flabbergasted that his insults had no effect on people who were for this...average people won't be offended for the same reason we don't argue about Star Wars movies. Most folks actually after playing on PTS doesn't understand why there is all the uproar it still takes about the same time to kill a mob...

That is what you are dealing with. As I said before I don't think you guys are going to win this one.

15k DPS is pretty average, maybe even on the low end, for anyone who can do a base game Vet dungeon.

Base game world bosses are designed to be done with a few people like a normal dungeon boss, and I've not had any issues doing them all with my IRL friends who do less than 15k DPS. Granted, maybe if you were trying to solo them, it'd be harder. But that's not how the "average" player was ever intended to beat a world boss.

And you know as well as I that no quest boss or minibosses is as hard as a base game world boss.

So I'm a little lost as to your point?

The "lower the ceiling" is talking about Vet Trial DPS, which is leagues above anything the average player needs for Overland content. So, no, ZOS isn't nerfing it to make Overland harder. You can't make 100k+ DPS players struggle against quest minibosses that die fast to 15k DPS.

Based on ESO Live, the "raise the floor" seems to be referring more to average players being able to progress into stuff like Vet Dungeons. So, again, we're talking about getting players to a level of DPS where Overland content becomes easy.

These changes have nothing to do with addressing the complaints about Overland Content being too easy, and if ZOS succeeds in raising the floor, Overland content will get easier for low DPS players.

wolfie1.0.

jaws343 wrote: »

ZOS has been trying to nerf top end DPS for like 3 years now. Every attempt has drastically failed. It's no surprise that they are trying again. And, it seems, successfully so.

It only really works though if the gap between the floor and ceiling actually shrinks. They lowered the floor here too.

Unless the goal was to get everyone at the top to quit the game.

VaranisArano

SilverBride wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I suspect that all the talk about overland being too easy and quest bosses dying too fast has something to do with this, and with some bosses now having phases where they are unattackable. In my opinion lowering the ceiling seems like a logical choice to reduce the gap between newer players and vets.

The ceiling is Vet Trial DPS, which has nothing to do with overland content and quest bosses.

Overland content becomes a cakewalk at 15k DPS. Seriously, I have to bring my MagDK tank who does like 8k DPS to even see the mechanics on minibosses.

That's a lot closer to the floor than the ceiling, so if ZOS is really raising the floor, overland content is only going to get easier. Arguably, though, they aren't successfully raising the floor, since after four years of training new players to use light attacks for free damage, they are nerfing them.

I agree that the ceiling is Vet Trial DPS, but then we have end game players complaining that overland is too easy and quest bosses die too fast, and asking for their difficulty to be increased to be more in line with the ceiling.

I don't think this is their goal. I believe these changes are meant to lower the ceiling, not to raise the floor.

They aren't going to lower the ceiling down to the point that end game players are struggling with quest bosses. It's just not gonna happen, so I don't see the connection you're making.

My MagDK tank does like 8k DPS and had zero problems with the Blackwood final boss. It took a while, but it wasn't hard. My MagSorc does 15k DPS and has no issues doing the Elsweyr questline. That's still nowhere near the "ceiling."

SilverBride

VaranisArano wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I agree that the ceiling is Vet Trial DPS, but then we have end game players complaining that overland is too easy and quest bosses die too fast, and asking for their difficulty to be increased to be more in line with the ceiling.

I don't think this is their goal. I believe these changes are meant to lower the ceiling, not to raise the floor.

They aren't going to lower the ceiling down to the point that end game players are struggling with quest bosses. It's just not gonna happen, so I don't see the connection you're making.

I agree, but some players are asking for that. They believe that overland should be a challenge for the most powerful players, which is not logical in my opinion.

spartaxoxo

This has nothing to do with Overland, IMO. In the ESO Live, they flat out stated they wanted to close the gap so that more players get to see vet content. That's the goal. To get people hitting vet walls but who want to engage in vet content into that content, so that the game has a more logical and natural progression. This would result in more endgame players.