PTS Update 35 - Feedback Thread for Combat Balance Changes

Cominfordatoothbrush

I'm just beyond baffled that you left jabs and empower the way they were on week 5.

Please buff jabs. I don't even play templar, but nobody I know is excited to use a weapon spammale to get meta dps. That move was practically templar's entire identity.

Medium attacks should not benefit from empower. It doesn't make sense that I can extend each GCD by .1s and get 80% more damage from weaving, and to add to that it's just not fun to weave. Even if you just like make the empower only apply to damage above a normal LA, it would be better, but you should really just remove it from mediums entirely.

edit: ALSO on the topic of MA weaving, how did you go from week 1 talking about how this update was about accessibility... to implementing a much more difficult skill to learn in order to get meta dps?

Lady_Galadhiel

My sorc healer

AJA

Rimskjegg wrote: »

So enemy damage output in content wasn't even touched, and you're still launching on August 22? You cannot possibly believe 2 weeks is enough to properly test every dungeon and trial in the game. You're going yo risk it anyway just to stick to a deadline you set??

You are gambling MUCH too high here. Put these changes on hold. It's still not too late to avoid massive frustration on the live servers.

The problem is their pride. They are too ashamed to admit that this patch was awful and needed to be scrapped / put on hold until everything is tested and adjusted properl

Ratzkifal

Thanks ZOS, you've made me regret having ever made 3 Templars. The new Jabs animation looks bad and I would not use it even if it dealt all the damage in the world. You have turned a perfectly good spammable into the Templar equivalent of DK's "pooprock". And Flurry should be renamed to Flailing, not because that sounds cooler but because it accurately describes how inept it makes your character look when using the skill.

I don't care about having the potential to weave better with these abilities because I am not going to use them in the first place. They look ugly and aesthetics are just as important as power in my opinion. Thanks for ruining my enjoyment of the game yet again.

What was the point here anyway? Why make weaving more important on Templars if it's weaving that drives the skill gap wider?

DeathStalker

How does anything in this disaster of a PTS cycle raise the floor?

JaiaV

I might be able to handle jabs being nerfed into near uselessness if it weren't so hideous on the PTS. The new animation is unbearably bad (and the nerfs are way too heavy handed).

GetAgrippa

So long and thanks for all the perfect roe.

Faltasë

Yall completely and utterly missed the mark on 8.1.4 PTS and all the previous PTS patches for U35 and I will say with maximum confidence that, and just to be blatant here, this is not bashing, but maybe the pride and ego needs to be set aside maybe just this once? Like, your player base is dwindling and I think you know the right move but yet are too prideful to do what's just.

The subs are cancelling, the endgamers are leaving, and the guilds are drying up like a dead sea sloads body. Guild leaders are leaving and trial progs are disbanding. You took the fun out of the game, do you have the strength to pull it back? Good Luck.

neferpitou73

Faltasë wrote: »

Yall completely and utterly missed the mark on 8.1.4 PTS and all the previous PTS patches for U35 and I will say with maximum confidence that, and just to be blatant here, this is not bashing, but maybe the pride and ego needs to be set aside maybe just this once? Like, your player base is dwindling and I think you know the right move but yet are too prideful to do what's just.

The subs are cancelling, the endgamers are leaving, and the guilds are drying up like a dead sea sloads body. Guild leaders are leaving and trial progs are disbanding. You took the fun out of the game, do you have the strength to pull it back? Good Luck.

This needs to be said. Someone screwed up and needs to admit it.

Necrotech_Master

i certainly hope there are more changes that happen with the patch as it goes live, it still feels like there is a lot of low hanging fruit that was never addressed from the first pts patch

a lot of things i think went in the right direction, but theres still a lot of remaining problems (certainly way more than there are now on live still)

personally still dont really understand what the entire point of overhauling the combat system was, it really wasnt necessary

xylena_lazarow

8.1.4 dev notes regarding Merciless Charge:

This change was done as the set no longer needs to carry the damage of Stampede to be more competitive with other weapons and should help it bite a little less in PvP encounters.

Neither Stampede nor this item see significant play in PvP on live, and have not for a long time, because like most DoT sources, they are simply too weak. Mentioning PvP to justify nerfing an already weak PvP damage source used only on a niche build archetype... seriously can we get some of the combat devs to actually play in Cyro and BGs for a few weeks?

prof_doom

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

seriously can we get some of the combat devs to actually play in Cyro and BGs for a few weeks?

Is that before or after they finish Vet Dreadsail Reef so they can see how bad the changes were for PVE?

IZZEFlameLash

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

8.1.4 dev notes regarding Merciless Charge:

This change was done as the set no longer needs to carry the damage of Stampede to be more competitive with other weapons and should help it bite a little less in PvP encounters.

Neither Stampede nor this item see significant play in PvP on live, and have not for a long time, because like most DoT sources, they are simply too weak. Mentioning PvP to justify nerfing an already weak PvP damage source used only on a niche build archetype... seriously can we get some of the combat devs to actually play in Cyro and BGs for a few weeks?

Hilarious that this weapon keeps eating nerfs for the most bizzare of reasons.

xylena_lazarow

I think I'll just give them zero money until they actually fix this mess, preferably by rolling back u35 combat changes.

Arjuna1696

You're breaking things that didn't need to be fixed, ignoring broad consensus about those changes, and still not addressing things that DO need to be fixed (like maybe finish hybridization or something!)

siddique

DeathStalker wrote: »

How does anything in this disaster of a PTS cycle raise the floor?

It doesn't. All it does is break the ceiling and sink the floor.
#accessibility

Tommy_The_Gun

Something that I would like to mention is the general "feeling" I have regarding Nightblade class changes in update 35.

It is kinda a "mixed bag".

There are a lot of good changes, like Aspect of Terror changes and Assassin's Blade changes that make NB class more inclined to use its own class abilities instead of slot weapon / guild skills. This is very nice.

The "elephant in the room" is Veiled Strike & morph changes. Some may consider it a buff, some nerf, but regardless of that, the general trend I see is that Nightblade is being kinda pushed more & more into one specific play-style with those changes. That play-style is... : PvP Ganking.

^ It is all done at the expense of almost every other play-style (PvP Brawler, PvE Tank, Healer, PvE Solo, Overland etc). That is something that I find very concerning and in general not healthy for the NB class and for the game. One play-style should not be the definitive way to balance skills & abilities, when the game motto is "Play as you want".

PS. I (and probably many other players too) wanted to see some Consuming Darkness & morphs improvements this patch. Kinda disappointing, but "it is what it is". I hope to see some changes in the future.

I hope that my feedback & opinion may be to some use and will be helpful for future adjustments, as nothing is "set in stone". Stay safe & good luck !

Hvnsnttnt

I made a forum account the first week of this PTS cycle when I read the patch notes and listened to the implications of them as explained by vet raiders who understood the context better than myself. I went on the PTS for the first time ever and practiced parsing with several setups to get a firsthand idea of how my own gameplay would be affected. I saw my damage plummet and felt incredibly bored - this is not why I chose to finally try and get decent and into vet/HM content. I am truly one of those players that ZOS says they are trying to help - was a casual overland solo player with limited knowledge of sets and group combat experience up until about March of this year. My damage was around 16k unbuffed. Thanks to the raiding community's guides and support, I now parse in the 70k range and have some DLC vet trials under my belt as well as DLC dungeon trifectas.

I told myself to wait until the final PTS cycle to give feedback but I have become so exhausted retesting rotations with new sets and weapons that I don't see the point in posting raw data when hundreds of parses and logs have been provided. ZOS has the data, it's up to them to accept it or not. This is me, a mid-tier player, asking to please roll these changes back and take more time to figure out a combat roadmap. My guilds have lost raid leads and enough support and DPS that we can't do our regular runs nor progs anymore. And that is already - these changes aren't even live yet. My long awaited vCR clear was in our sights and now is gone. I don't see why I would stick with this and spend more time unhappily farming gear in PUGs (no one else I know who is still trying to get gear that doesn't have it already) and learning even more weapon lines (almost all of them) on my characters to try and stay viable. This is no longer an enjoyable experience, and I'm taking a break from the game because of it, maybe permanently.

Tyrobag

"We have also made several additional adjustments to class abilities and item sets – a bit more than we typically do in the final week of PTS testing"

Not shooting the messenger, Gina didn't make these decisions, but what?!? That's completely false. This was a few tiny tweaks, when what was needed (and was unanimously asked for) was to completely revert the changes. You didn't even touch the messed up DoTs situation. What is it going to take to drive it into Zos' heads that nobody wants these changes? Apparently the money they're loosing from dropped subs isn't doing it. Nor is their freefalling public image.

Auldwulfe

Arjuna1696 wrote: »

You're breaking things that didn't need to be fixed, ignoring broad consensus about those changes, and still not addressing things that DO need to be fixed (like maybe finish hybridization or something!)

I think they are working on hybridization ... more and more things are becoming less dependent on stats.....
I think the goal of hybrid is not what we thought it was ..... as people are still stacking all their points in one stat, either stamina for those builds, or magicka for those.... and relying on the fact that the particular stat is high enough to carry the other skill, even if you can't use it as much......

I think, that in the long run, they are divorcing everything from the stats, making those high peaked out stats have only a limited advantage, with low stats being a more serious penalty.... with the idea of then having the majority of players balancing out ......

I am trying to make it make sense, and based on the first idea of flat damage on attacks, and then giving in with "some" scaling..... I see that as the first step, with skills then being also divorced from over reliance on the stats.....

In the end, the stats would have less impact, some, but not as much as you see, now.... and not boosting, say health, or giving yourself "some" magicka on a stamina focused character being a detriment, as it would leave you vulnerable to NOT boost all 3 stats.

Auldwulfe

Veesk

I can live through the consistent rollercoaster of the Templar nerf and buff cycles but I cannot stand the new animation (it looks and feels terrible to use), and I hate that it's now 3 jabs.

Why would you give the message you want to make weaving less impactful and nerf it to narrow the gap between ceiling and floor and then turn around and gut jabs/sweeps all supposedly to "help" make weaving easier and force players to weave to somehow make up damage loss? How does that help anyone?

This is such an awful update (especially to Templar accessibility), the changes should be scrapped.

katorga

Tyrobag wrote: »

"We have also made several additional adjustments to class abilities and item sets – a bit more than we typically do in the final week of PTS testing"

Not shooting the messenger, Gina didn't make these decisions, but what?!? That's completely false. This was a few tiny tweaks, when what was needed (and was unanimously asked for) was to completely revert the changes. You didn't even touch the messed up DoTs situation. What is it going to take to drive it into Zos' heads that nobody wants these changes? Apparently the money they're loosing from dropped subs isn't doing it. Nor is their freefalling public image.

That will be all the stuff they forgot to put in the patch notes, kinda like Caluurions.

prof_doom

katorga wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

"We have also made several additional adjustments to class abilities and item sets – a bit more than we typically do in the final week of PTS testing"

Not shooting the messenger, Gina didn't make these decisions, but what?!? That's completely false. This was a few tiny tweaks, when what was needed (and was unanimously asked for) was to completely revert the changes. You didn't even touch the messed up DoTs situation. What is it going to take to drive it into Zos' heads that nobody wants these changes? Apparently the money they're loosing from dropped subs isn't doing it. Nor is their freefalling public image.

That will be all the stuff they forgot to put in the patch notes, kinda like Caluurions.

Wouldn't be the first time that they forgot to give her the full set of changes for a PTS patch.

shadyjane62

prof_doom wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

Tyrobag wrote: »

"We have also made several additional adjustments to class abilities and item sets – a bit more than we typically do in the final week of PTS testing"

Not shooting the messenger, Gina didn't make these decisions, but what?!? That's completely false. This was a few tiny tweaks, when what was needed (and was unanimously asked for) was to completely revert the changes. You didn't even touch the messed up DoTs situation. What is it going to take to drive it into Zos' heads that nobody wants these changes? Apparently the money they're loosing from dropped subs isn't doing it. Nor is their freefalling public image.

That will be all the stuff they forgot to put in the patch notes, kinda like Caluurions.

Wouldn't be the first time that they forgot to give her the full set of changes for a PTS patch.

Forgot? Convenient.

velt88_ESO

I'm new to this game, I tank in every game I play.

The nerf to shadow cloak means that is one less night blade flavored ability that will be on my bar while I tank. You're forcing me to use Vigor now, and I don't appreciate it. I want my nightblade tank to use night blade abilities. I want my class to have flavor. This homogenization garbage is killing your game.

You guys are killing all of the flavor in your game. Shadow Cloak was the only cool shadowy nightblade ability on my sword and board bar.

Tanking in this game already feels like an afterthought with how stupidly little support there is for managing groups of mobs (AOE Taunts/Pulls/No Aggro Tables). It is no wonder there are so few tanks who play this game.

Ratzkifal

velt88_ESO wrote: »

I'm new to this game, I tank in every game I play.

The nerf to shadow cloak means that is one less night blade flavored ability that will be on my bar while I tank. You're forcing me to use Vigor now, and I don't appreciate it. I want my nightblade tank to use night blade abilities. I want my class to have flavor. This homogenization garbage is killing your game.

You guys are killing all of the flavor in your game. Shadow Cloak was the only cool shadowy nightblade ability on my sword and board bar.

Tanking in this game already feels like an afterthought with how stupidly little support there is for managing groups of mobs (AOE Taunts/Pulls/No Aggro Tables). It is no wonder there are so few tanks who play this game.

Are you talking about the Cloak change from 8.1.4 or before? I haven't tested that yet but on paper that sounds more sensible than the missing health scaling. I still would have preferred if they had buffed defile and left healing values as they were.

BretonMage

So... when will the DoT durations be adjusted back to make them line up again? Complicated rotations where our static and sticky DOTs don't line up are going to lower accessibility for struggling players. Having to keep track of several dissimilar ability durations is a bigger hurdle than learning to LA weave tbh.

master_vanargand

Nightblade's Surprise Attack without Stun is garbage.
Did you roll a 4 on the dice?
This patch is most hopeless.

MashmalloMan

This patch is a wash, you've messed up, I'm done being constructive for you (ZOS). Hours upon hours of testing by 100s of players doing free work for you.

You've shown your true colours. Your "knee jerk reactions" week to week of the PTS completely changing things like dots to empower to light/heavy's from 1 extreme to the other shows you have no idea what you're doing anymore.

None of the bugs or standardization issues I reported are fixed either. What is the point of standards if you don't actually use them?

I had hope you would bring back some class identity to Sorc because you specified us in the notes. Unfortunately you thought a small buff to Crystal Weapon as one of the worst spammables in the game now, coupled with an overbuff to Daedric Prey was enough. It wasn't. You only solidified pet sorc for pve dps is the only way to play them. Non pet sorc has been dead for years and stam sorc is stuck using pets now due to hybrid changes. Pvp sorc is in the can, we were hard carried by a few sets and instead of nerfing the sets, you nerfed the class. Thank you.

I'm not going to alpha test your game for another 3 months to just get ignored. Money talks, you'll notice what this patch has done to your revenue for the next 3-4 months. Thanks for nothing.

sbr32

A lot of other people have made clear what an unmitigated disaster this update is in game, so I won't bother with that anymore but instead my Feedback will be about your Update process as a whole.

You all (ZOS) need to make a decision about how you want to do this going forward, because this current Update system is very clearly the worst of both worlds.

If you decide to continue with the PTS system you must slow down development, extend the PTS cycles and engage in honest and open dialog with the incredible community you have here that wants to help you improve the game.

If you decide, for whatever reason, that that is not an option you need to just ***-can the entire PTS. Just drop whatever updates you want on the game and go from there. This will upset your dedicated players (if there are any left), but just like ripping off the band-aid getting it over quickly will be better than this extended, agonizing 4 week process of your players begging you to listen, to understand, to please love them before you just do whatever you wanted to do anyway.

Either way you will have upset customers, but giving those upset customers 4 weeks to build up and vent their anger here on the forums and other platforms seems to be the worst case scenario.